Serow - West London/Surrey
 

Can anyone recommend a mechanic in the Staines/Woking area who would be able to work on my 1996 Serow?

My starter motor is kaput, and my usual mechanic keeps putting me off as he's incredibly busy at the moment. However I'm itching to get the Serow up and running while we've still got some summer.

Thanks in advance
Ange

Any idea what sort of 'kaput' it's suffering from ?

Kaput Serow Starter
 

You press the ignition button, the starter makes a (slightly unhealthy?) whirring noise, but nothing turns over in the engine.

It occurred intermittently over the course of a weekend, and I was able to push start it when the starter wasn't engaging. However a couple of miles from home (lucky) the bike stalled, and I've failed to get it started by either the starter motor, or push-starting, since.

Any advice/recommendations most welcome.
Ange

If stater motor is turning over it could be starter motor clutch not fully engaging. You might be luck and just have to remove engine side cover, remove starter clutch, clean it up and put it back in. Or if it's seriously 'kaput', a new one might be required.
Other possable causes might be worn starter motor bushes, worn starter/clutch gears or low battery charge. Have you put battery on charge ? Try the battery first, it's the easiest, then looks like spannering time.

Ange

Sorry can't advise on mechanics in your area. I have a 92 Serow and although I have not had the same issue mine is starting to make noises there. The starter clutch Brian refers to is tucked behind the flywheel/rotor, it is driven by a starter idler gear which is driven by the starter motor, it is possible any of these gears are affected but the starter clutch itself is most likely. Probably worth at same time getting starter motor overhauled with new brushes and grease up the bearings. There is an yamaha manual to download at the excellent XT225/250 Rider's Group website with a very well supported forum of serow riders. My serow is currently with my son down at the Bristol mini-meet. Sorry I can't be of more help hope you get it sorted, let us know as mine could be headed the same way.

Regards

Robin

Thanks Robin & Brian (and those who've PM'd me)

If only it was the battery - that much I can fix!! But no, it's seems to work or fail regardless of how topped up the battery is.

I'm not sure if it's the starter motor clutch not engaging, or if it needs replacing. I did get my hands dirty and my spanners out, however once the engine side cover was removed all I learned was what the inside of the engine looked like (and not knowing what it's meant to look like, I was a little bit lost!)

I'd be happy to give repairing it a stab, if I knew what I was doing was going to help, not make thigs worse. However, but maybe (just maybe) it might be time to let an expert take a look! :frown:

Maybe, if the weather's nice tomorrow, I'll get my toolkit out again and pretend I know what I'm talking about (with a little help from xt225.com perhaps)...

Ange

If you descide to dive into the engine internals yourself, you will need a flywheel puller to remove flywheel, give me a shout, I'm in Staines area and have one you can use.
Also if it's like similar bikes I have had with same problem, try putting bike in 1st gear, clutch in and push it backwards let the clutch out, you should hear the 'whirr' of the starter gears, if your lucky it might also nudge the starter into activity (temperarily).
Sorry I can't recomend any good mechanics in Staines area, they all seem to be closing down !

A flywheel puller!
 

Thanks Brian

I'll try the trick with the 1st gear, and if that doesn't work then I may well appreciate the use of a flywheel puller.

I don't think I've sent my newbie-required 8 posts, so can't PM you my contact details. However if you don't mind a strange woman knowing either you're email address or phone number, then you're more than welcome to drop me a PM and I'll be in touch.

:biggrin3:

Ange

Sticky starter motor, eh... tried giving a couple of gentle taps with a soft mallet/hammer with a bit of wood inbetween? Worth a try!

Ange

Below is link to the yamaha service manual at xt225.com:-

XT225 Service Manual

Pages 4-13 (manual page) or 144 (adobe acrobat page) are where the flywheel removal part starts. Good luck and let me know what you find.

Regards

Robin

Hello. By the sounds of it I had exactly the same trouble with my 1990 xt600e. I checked for loose wires, dead battery, push starting and I tried tapping the starter (as it had played up befor, and tapping the starter is a good little trick!). In the end I gave up and took the bike into the garage. Now please dont hit me....I cant tell you what was wrong with the bike as I went away for a couple of weeks, and my mate picked up the bike and never bloody asked!!! Argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But it only cost £30 to get it fixed which means it took less then an hour and no new parts were added. So basacily what Im saying is dont fret!!! If your like me and not too sound when it comes to pulling bits apart, pop it into a garage and hopefully it will just be the same problem as mine. Sorry, maby a useless reply, but I always find it good to know if someones had the same trouble as me, and that its turned out to be a mole hill rather then a mountain!!!!!

So far, so good...
 

Thanks Yoashma, I'm *really* hoping that it is something quite simple to fix, because when it comes to pulling bits apart - well... I already go started! On Saturday, I wheeled my Serow into the living room (I love the patio door to my flat) and cracked open my toolkit.

Big thanks to Brian for the loan of his rotor puller, as I wouldn't have acheived anything without it. In fact for a while, I wasn't sure I was going to achieve anything with it! It took two of us, and a few cups of tea, to remove the rotor - we took it in turns and pulled and pulled, and when the two of us were pulling the rotor and the rotor puller in opposite directions, it eventually flew out (duck!!!)

Robin - you were right, it is starter clutch, and from the looks of it it's seriously 'kaput'. The starter clutch attaches to the rotor which a number of what used to be allen bolts. ...and there's no way it was our brute force that destroyed them.

So, onto ordering some replacements I guess. Just wanted to update you on the story so far, to thank you for your encouragement and help, and to say keep the advice coming. Even though I've only succeeded in taking my bike apart so far, it's definately a step in the right direction (for both me and the bike)

Ange

Ange

Thanks for the update, sorry to hear its a bit serious. I have dug out a link to a parts listing below:-

http://www.angelfire.com/sports/sero...rterClutch.HTM

It looks like you may need some or all of part number 4H7-15580-10-00 'STARTER CLUTCH OUTER ASSY'. I have found in the past Fowlers Yamaha in Bristol quite good for genuine serow parts, their parts dept number is 0117 977 0466 . Again keep us updated, also let me know the part cost as my serow that my son uses may be getting this problem soon!! so I might be following in your footsteps. Also remember to order a new gasket for that casing.

Regards

Robin

Ange

Saw your post on the serow owners forum so have updated there and here.
I have not seen the starter clutch or had this issue but from the sounds of it the bolts fail to protect the teeth on the various gears involved that would be a lot more costly. It sounds like the bolts can be replaced, to remove the sheared ends you might need to buy a stud extractor set (available from any tool shop). With these you drill a small hole in the sheared stud and then screw in the stud extractor (pick one of appropriate size for the hole drill, start small and work up). Note the stud extractor screw in anti-clockwise, ie opposite to regular bolt this is so that when they tighten they start to unscrew the stud/bolt. Once removed inspect thread for damage, I suspect they will be ok if the stud is still in the thread. Then re-order new bolts from Yamaha, p/n 91317-08016-00 quantity 3. Hopefully should do it. Keep us updated.

Regards

Robin

Crazy bolt stuff
 

When I said the bolts looked like they'd been ripped out - I really mean they look like they've been ripped out. So they didn't exactly shear, like I implied!

The bolts have come out whole, but there's no thread left on them. The allen hexagons in the tops don't look like they're quite the shape they were before, and as for the rotor... well, there's nothing left of the thread there, it's just smudged indentations! There must have been some force (possibly over quite some time?) so have done that. Fortunately the gears don't look in bad shape, so I'm hoping I can just get away with replacing the starter clutch/rotor.

The instructions on removing damaged bolts are much appreciated, as I can I've been meaning to remove the broken bolt from my Honda clip ons for quite some time!

Cheers
Ange

Ange

Yes I see, I was assuming they had failed ie sheared. Maybe the original spec bolts have been replaced with a different spec that did not shear hence the damage. Thats why I specified using yamaha original bolts as replacements. Depending on cost/availability of replacement starter clutch if there is room you might be able to fit an longer bolt with a nut on the other side?, best used a nyloc nut or even drill and wire it? . Bear in mind though if it fails again it may do even more damage so maybe a new starter clutch assy is the way to go?

Regards

Robin

Ah. Just found that a new rotor comes through at £250, the starter clutch is £80, which I could handle, but over £330 for both... hmm... ! Bearing in mind the age and condition of my bike, I'm not sure it'd be money well spent.

Excuse me while I work on plan B. Any suggestions willingly taken on board. Robin, I'll think about your suggestions tonight whilst I scowl at the bike in a subdued manner!

Ange

Ange

Post some pictures up of the damaged parts if possible, so we can get a better idea of what needs replacing. Normal most things can be repaired to some degree or another. Having looked at the manual a little closer it seems you could get the threads repaired with 'helicoils' this is where the holes are drilled larger and a new replacement thread fitted or drill holes larger and cut a new thread using a tap and fit larger bolts (you will also have to drill out starter clutch). Or depending on the material you could get the parts welded together, all you need to be careful of is getting the rotor with the magnets too hot. Certainly think a cheaper repair option is an alternative to buying a new rotor.

Regards

Robin

They *have* sheared!!! Please remember, I'm on a steep learning curve!

Closer inspection of the rotor last night, showed that the bolts were longer than I thought (I thought they were just short stubby things), so maybe it will be possible to drill them out.

So back to Robin's plan A then!! :-D

Ange

(It's a roller coaster ride of emotions this mechanicking! - I think I can fix it, I think I can't, I think I can, I think I can't...)

PS. Working on the photos.

Ange

Fortunately the rotor sits in oil its whole time so you should not have any issues with rust, however it may do no harm to spray some plus gas into the hole where the sheared studs are to soak overnight before attempting to extract them. Also there are different types of stud extractor, I have put a link to the type I am referring to which are also called 'spiral screw extractors', I have not used this company it is just an example of the tool required:-

KD2419 KD Removal Tool KD KD2419 Spiral Screw Extractor Set - From Lawson HIS - UK

You will also need a t-bar or t-handle tap wrench to turn the screw extractor with. Good luck and remember the pictures.

Regards

Robin

Hi Ange, Maybe now is the time to take the offending article to someone who can have a look at it and give you some advice. They may not have wanted to do the job due to time etc but I'm sure they'll give you a bit of free advice. Pics would help here, I'll PM you my e-mail and I'll post them for you.

Here are some pics Ange sent me of the work so far...


http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...erowInside.jpg

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...sideSerow2.jpg

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...mish/Rotor.jpg

I'm sure Ange will add the comentary.

Ange

Looking at the pictures it still looks repairable , would be useful to see the other side of the starter clutch assy to assess its state. But it is certainly worth extracting the bolts and getting new bolts to test fit in the holes and see if they will hold. Looking at the damage I am wondering if the bolts initially came loose and then allowed movement of the starter clutch against the rotor which would have bent them under load, the burrs around the holes on the rotor may need grinding down if the metal is to hard for a file, the surface will need to be flat. More pics showing boths sides of related parts would be useful, but I think you have enough to be going on with.

Regards

Robin

Hi Ange I am in your area and if you are still having problems give us a ring.01932874257 Paul

I fixed my Serow, I fixed my Serow, tra la, la la la la..... :wave:

Sorry for the long absence. I bet you thought I'd taken your good advice and then legged it (not true). Anyway, I'm back with good news - The Serow works. ...it cost me a fraction of what it would have done if I'd taken it to a mechanic, and I've learned a little bit more about how bikes work.

Thank you ever so much for all your help and advice, I think it's very probable I wouldn't have attempted this repair without your help and encouragment (let alone succeeded!)

The starter clutch was replaced with a new one, but the rotor it attaches to was rescued. The sheared off bolts were drilled out and replaced with new. The burrs on the rotor were filed down, so it could sit flush against the clutch. New gasket and bolts for the crankcase were fitted, and the oil was changed. ...and the best thing is, I did it all myself (with a bit of help from my boyfriend where some extra muscle, or two pairs of hands were required)

Once everything was back together, I just needed to charge the battery, bleed the fuel from the carb thing (honesty moment: I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here, I just know it needs to be done if been sitting a few months), and it started with just a bit of choke. Wooo-yeah!

I now have my living room back, but am thinking of wheeling my Honda Bros inside, as apparently they're a doddle to de-restrict...

Ange

PS. I've still got the photos, if anyone wants me to jot down a quick walk through of the experience!!

Well done Ange, happy serowing. :mchappy:

[quote=Ange;206143](It's a roller coaster ride of emotions this mechanicking! - I think I can fix it, I think I can't, I think I can, I think I can't...)

quote]


Love it! Been there etc etc. and that was also with a Yam (not a Serow) which is how I got involved in this website (mucho thanks to Tedmagnum for the advice + a few others - you know who you are).
I love a good news story - keep trucking!!!