Disc Forgeries.
 

Hi, I bought an EBC stainless steel front disc for a Yamaha TTR600R. The mounting holes didn't line up accurately and some drilling was needed. Next day I washed the bike with water and left it ovrenight without drying it. The new disc was rusty on all its edges and had surface rust beginning to appear all over it. The rear disc was not rusty and the original front disc had shown no signs of rusting despite being outside for a year.

I checked Triumph, Honda, Suzuki and other bikes and none showed signs of rust on any of their discs. I asked in two garages about this and was informed that my suspicions of a forgery were founded.

I went to Wemoto from whom the disc had been bought. I said the above and stated that I thought they were being supplied with discs as EBC but not made by them, though the packaging was for EBC.

Wemoto asked what I was insinuating. I said I simply I wanted a response to my statement. They say they don't have to give one. They even tried to confiscate the packaging. I said this customer service is not good. He smiled.

This is my experience, use it as you wish. I suspect there are false EBC discs for sale in UK. Perhaps more stockists than Wemoto have them. I personally shall in future deal directly with Yamaha and EBC. EBC said over the phone that their discs do not rust.

Ciao, Lindsay.

Why don't you ask EBC if they will investigate the possibility of counterfeit discs being sold under their name?
Surely they would have some interest if this is true?, after all its their brand they will be trying to protect!
If they don't have any interest then maybe look elsewhere for discs like Metalgear or ABM Peak?

Done.
 

Hi, have just e-mailed EBC with the code number and bar code from the packaging. EBCdirect said already that they sound suspect. I know forgeries are widespread and this applies more to brake pads which could be more dangerous. Lindsay.

Trading standards ?

Modern stainless discs will rust eventually, but in my experience it usually takes a couple of weeks in the open before there is a trace of rust on the braking surfaces. Rusting overnight is what my old Moto Guzzi's discs used to do - and they were cast iron! The disc material is clearly not the grade of s/s it should be.

I've dealt a lot with Wemoto and always found them to be fine. But as I have never had a problem, I haven't had cause to test their approach to a problem. Their attitude, as reported, doesn't give much confidence. Having worked a lot in customer service, I would have responded as follows:

We are very sorry you have had a problem with the product.
Please return the disc for a full refund.
We will then investigate the matter with EBC and report back to you.
And then do what you say you will do.

It costs a bit more to operate in this way, but it maintains customer confidence. With safety-critical items like brake discs, that is a vital element of trading.

I could understand if you bought them off Ebay or some other auction site then the seller could just tell you to go away and there would be little recourse.
However when you are dealing with an established company like Wemoto which is a big enough player in the parts game then the game changes.
They need to be on top of this perceived issue or word will start to spread and thats the last thing that any company needs these days.
I am looking for a new front disc right now, and what are the chances that I will buy an EBC from Wemoto while this is unresolved?

I'm following this with great interest and looking forward to the later responses of both EBC and Wemoto.

Responses.
 

Hi, EBC replied and they're great. It seems likely that the disc is an old type of low grade stainless steel that should have been gold finished but slipped by. The new type are higher grade stainless steel. They offered to swap it. The codes are correct. The MOT is due in ten days so the bike'll have to be off the road for a while. The disc rusted as fast as the cast steel discs on my 1970's Guzzi, definitely too rapidly.

So, I'd say EBC are a great company. No-one's perfect. But I'll deal direct with them in future if I need to. I'll not use Wemoto again despite them being so close. I had phoned them the day before and agreed to bring the disc in. It was on the bike parked outside to be viewed but the guy there was not agreeable at all.

So, this was an unusual slip up and not a forgery. Lindsay.

Yea, there are various grades of stainless steel and they are not all rust resistant in the wrong, aggressive conditions such as chlorides i.e. salt.
Which begs the question of why were the discs manuf of that material in the first place.
It sounds like you have given up with Wemoto for this subject.

Yep.
 

Call it a clash of personalities. I personally will not deal with them again. I really don't like arguments which is what a conversation with them would be. I'll put the bike over a pile of small pallets and remove the disc in that position. There's a company yard where I'm sure they'll say yes to doing that. That way there's no further cost in removal and refitting. I have to do these things cheaply as I'm definitely not well off.

I shouldn't have been so fast to say forgeries but I was certain that was the case.

Lastly, of some interest perhaps: I had damaged the original disc by forgetting the disc lock was there. The bike had been unused for about five months and it was my first ride. My memory is these days a real liability. I had paid for and ordered a new EBC disc which had to be ordered. So I set off for Ripley with the need to apply the front brake four times to get any pressure. I could see the pads being pushed out each time after applying the brake. This is perhaps seen as foolhardy, perhaps illegal but I rode safely knowing that the braking distance was a lot, like a veteran bike no doubt.

After a couple of hours the disc began to straighten and was nearly normal by the time I arrived at Ripley. The heating up and pressure were repairing it! As the caliper is floating, the disc would never straighten completely. I think it could have been repaired with a lathe. On the ride back home the brake activated as normal with just a bit of vibration due to the caliper moving in and out. Clearly it needs a replacement to get an MOT and be sensible to use. The pads have taken a hammering though and new ones have been ordered. All experience. Lindsay.

I have a China made front disc brake rotor bought on ebay and I've had no problems with it nor any rust pick up on it even if when I let the bike outside for weeks..

:S

I'm exactly in the same situation, but just confirmed I'm going to order it from KEDO (EBC cheaper there as well).

Anyway, I think some factors got together in the case to make things go wrong. Someone there had a bad day or similar. I don't think Wemoto would get to be that big with such bad customer service.

Esteban

Maybe someone had a bad day, but in the profession of sales, you don't laugh at customers. EVER.
Thats a surefire way to piss people off and then they bitch and moan on an 'ternet forum and.....

Another rule of customer service: for every good experience, a customer will tell, on average, three people. For every bad experience, they will tell twenty.

On in the days of the interwebs, twenty million.

Done.
 

Hi, well that's the disc posted first class to EBC.

No, the guy wasn't having a bad day. He is always unsmiling and serious, surly even. He demands to command the conversation and not be hurried or disturbed in any way. He's one of the founders. Yes, they're doing very well but he should put himself out of sight of the customers, well that's my opinion. I'm not slagging them off simply stating that I was not allowed to make a complaint or point out a possible fault unless I did it on his terms. Good wishes to them. Lindsay.

When in business we impressed on all our people that it is quite usual and normal for businesses to make mistakes from time to time and that is no judge of the quality of the business.

What makes good businesses stand out from the others is how they handle the inevitable mistakes. And that comes down to the people.

Totally agree, I hope nothing in my comment looked like a justification of Wemoto's attitude. I used to work in (olive oil) export, so had to be especially aware of that because big cultural differences and business approaches are involved in a distant commercial relation, so very tricky.

I would more than probably have reacted as Lindsey, but truth to be said, the EBC was not a counterfeit, but a defective original one. If the guy felt offended for the question, he should have hidden the feeling, since that's often life in customer service, dealing with people who are pissed due to a problem, otherwise, change job. Take it easy and try to solve it the best way you can. As Lindsay said, they should remove the guy who smiled (not laughed) from customer service if they do not want to damage more their image. He should have handled it much much better.

EBC aknowledged their fault (thumbs up for that) and took the right measures: they just followed TonyP's guidelines, way to go. Even if they made it wrong, any of us will still buy their products (I still plan to do it). By contrast, at least Linzi and maybe others as well, won't be very happy to deal with Wemoto, even if it was not their fault that the disc was defective.

Nonetheless, I'm still sure that Wemoto's general attitude towards customer cannot be like that, otherwise they wouldn't have grown that much.

EDIT: EBC could also track the defective discs and replace them... but that's another story.

Back bending.
 

Hi, with relation to Wemoto, this is just the one member of staff. He is simply a straight faced, serious and stubborn sod. Over the phone or by e-mail there are no problems. That's why I said it was a personality clash. Feel free to deal with them, it's simply that you won't get a cheery, chatty reception.
Not to mention that he didn't notice that there might have been a problem with some stock. He was content to have won a competition. I'd expect EBC to check the disc from me and if it is dodgy to hunt out down the delivery system.
Lindsay.

Received.
 

Well EBC just replied that they got the disc and tests showed it to be a low carbon steel disc which missed out on being plated. A stainless steel one is being sent. Top company. Lindsay.

I don't get it. Your OP stated that the mounting holes didn't line up, and that you had to re-drill to fit the disk. In addition, it rusted.

Now you're saying you're satisfied by the manufacturer saying it wasn't properly plated. Plating is a surface treatment, and a brake disk is a wear item, i.e., the surface wears away, exposing the substrate. In this case, the disk would rust immediately after you began scraping the plating off by using it. What's the use of that?

And what about the holes not lining up? Am I missing something? I don't know about "counterfeit," but it sure sounds like they sold you a piece of junk and the manufacturer is making bogus excuses. Does that seem ok?

Mark

I have an overly cynical mind but to me that seems a bit like, we got these made by a factory that could make them cheaper, but they turned out to be POS and we want to recall them if we can.
I would not be happy about having to redrill disc holes. That woud indicate to me that they were substandard products in more than one way.

Holes.
 

Hi, my right hand is badly injured so I took the bike to a local small, trustworthy garage. I was told it was a pig of a job with most of the bolts being seized, not surprising given the corrosion present. He also said he'd found some of the holes about 1 thou out and needed to be moved with a drill. I didn't witness this though.
The supplied disc was, as said, low carbon missing its plating which should have left only the braking surface free, and this would have rusted lightly. The disc is of course very simple and could easily be made in even a shed. This replacement will be stainless. Could still be made in a shed. As regards the holes, I have long ago lost interest is precision in products, I have a Guzzi after all. I was surprised to find lack of precision outside the Guzzi world but accepted it with resignation.
I shall get back to you about fitting the new disc. Maybe the rusted disc was outsourced to save money, maybe the stainless one will be too but I wouldn't boast about "Made in Britain" showing quality. The quality is all that matters.
It is incredibly difficult for all manufacturers with the world situation as it is....currencies, labour costs, Chinese competition. EBC are honest though and that counts for everything.
Finally I have to buy at retail outlets while I know that stainless steel is a very cheap material with the public made to think it is expensive, that discs are incredibly simple to make but I am not in possession of the tools to make one. It was a simple mistake or perhaps two by EBC but they have been totally open about it so I am content with that. Heck, I make masses of mistakes myself these days so I can't criticize but covering up anything is unforgiveable. Eh BMW? Eh Ducati? ( F650GS forks collapsing, R1200GS corrossion, '80's BMW wiring. Ducati 916 rear axle snaps in Germany, rider killed, bikes recalled.......but not in UK!) No, thanks for honesty EBC. Lindsay.

My area of expertise is the electronics and testing side of brake systems (and on trucks at that), but I'll have a go at answering.

The near perfect brake material is cast iron. The cast surface is rough so gives higher friction. The porosity and structure gives contaminants somewhere to go and it wears to leave a similar surface. It has few issues with heat. It is also cheap and easy to produce. The downside is that if not used it is cosmetically poor, it's heavy and as a structural material likes simple shapes.

Motorcycle fashion makes the last three serious. If manufacturer A offers a shiney, foil thin, flower shaped, collander style design and manufacturer B bolts on a rusty man hole cover guess who sells most. Everyone except racers would be better off with B but want A for the bling value of looking like the racers.

The manufacturers therefore had to find a middle ground. Surface coatings varied from annoying oil sprays which the dealer hopefully remembered to clean off through to lethal attempts to chrome and zinc plate. The former lubricant burns off by the time the bike is run in, the latter remains lethal. The coatings ruin the micro-structure the brake material wants to work against. Plan B was sticking with a homogenous material but adding anti-corrosion agents. The lower the grade of stainless the more like steel/iron it is, the more chrome/zinc/copper/iridium/unobtanium etc. you add the more it acts like it's chrome lubed.

The balance on cars and bikes is to use a low to mid grade disc specific stainless and make the disc bigger on the diameter. This ticks all the fashion boxes and the performance is still close enough not to attract attention. You get basic cast iron or machined steel disks disappearing in the 1980's and the current materials fully established by about 2000. There are 20-plus years worth of vehicles out there from the changeover period with odd sizes and varying materials, so for some the manufacturers simply can't afford to keep the semi-experimental OE materials going. If you are lucky they switched to plain steel and you live with the rust, if you are unlucky someone finds a failed experiment in adding chromed teflon or old scrap as we had in this case and flogs you a set.

Trucks BTW went to discs in 1995-2010 but are still cast iron, they get enough use to clear the rubbing surface the the rest is painted.

Andy

Thanks.
 

Thanks for that Andy. Yep, my old Guzzi has cast discs. They rust within 15 minutes of getting wet but are really effective. I value them so much that I have made sure I have two complete spare sets rather than having to replace with stainless steel discs. I wipe them off if wet and even search out the water from the calper after washing the bike. I keep the spares coated in oil. It is getting difficult to find matching soft pads too as harder pads match the newer stainless steel discs. So I have a large box of suitable pads. I'd hoped the Yamaha, being Japanese, would mean I didn't have to collect a mass of spares. Running an old bike is a love affair. It's interesting to learn a bit about the developement over time of the materials. Finally, the front brake of the Yamaha is very effective with the correct disc and pads so they got a good balance there apart from the thin, 4mm, delicacy of it. My fault in the first place with this affair. Lindsay.

Done.
 

Well the new stainless steel disc arrived here on the evening of EBC's receiving the old disc in the morning. I've just bolted it on and it went on exactly. I suspect the mechanic had had to drill the hole in the Italian made wheel hub then and not the disc. Sorry fort the confusion. He had needed to drill out four of the old bolts. Good reason to keep a bike in a garage out of the weather. Lindsay.

There is or was one member of staff in there sometimes behind counter that's a complete and utter tosser that almost makes an extra effort to be difficult..
I've never had a problem with any of the others,all pretty helpful.
I'm pretty sure he has a negative effect the company,which otherwise are pretty good.

The Bossman.
 

Yep, that'll be the guy. I was restraining my description as it is possible others would have no problems with him. He is one of the owners! Lindsay.

tbh,i would have taken it back as soon as i discovered the mounting bolt-holes didn't line up!
as soon as you touched it with the drill you lost all rights to claim an exchange
re-drilling the holes yourself is just asking for trouble.how do you know the holes are in the right place?

Andy,
Thanks for the reminders of the properties of cast, and wrought, iron :thumbup1:
Oh for asbestos in the brake pads and all would be well with the worlds' brakes, again.