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About Lock-tite & girly hands...
We have encountered a (probably typically female) problem - and just wanted to hear your views:
When disassembling/fixing/replacing things, there are instances when it is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY impossible for us, to loosen things. Seriously - we spent an hour the other day, trying to disconnect an electrical connector - and when a male knight in shining armour finally arrived - he was able to just pull it apart with brute force. We just don't have the physical strenghth required to do it! Since part of our 'bike prep' schedule is to work our way through and replace all fasteners (including electrical chocolate-block pluggie thingies) -- we thought it would be good to make sure that everything is easily REMOVABLE for us. HOWEVER -- everyone advises that, in order to avoid vibration - we need to locktite things in. This poses the question: if we are all by ourselves in the wilds of Africa - and something breaks, and we are supposed to take it off/loosen it... what do we do?? And if we DONT fasten stuff tightly -- it may all fall apart!! SOooooo - we thought MAYBE we could just create a little SCHEDULE of CHECKING all the stuff... every day...? |
No Locktite
First of all, don’t use Locktite. There are a few exceptions but that’s mostly inside the engine. (Okay. Locktite-freaks will probably chime in here but give it a try)
Instead you can use copper-based grease which makes the bolts easier to remove (stops corrosion).Clean the bolt before applying the grease. The bolts don’t fell off as long as you tighten them once in a while, use lock-nuts where possible. If you are paranoid then safety-wire some bolts. The copper-based grease usually works for a few years so it’s no need to carry it on a trip. It could be smart to carry a small container of ordinary grease (10 gram is enough for a year). If a bolt is stuck:
Maintenance of electrical connections:
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Most of the other things you say make good sense :thumbup1: |
When you apply Locktite to the screw and tighten it the Locktite dries up and gets pretty hard (when it looses contact with air). If you have used enough Locktite it will seal so you don’t get any corrosion.
But let us say that after a while you tighten (or open) the screw. The Locktite (which were hard) cracks up and it will not seal properly and corrosion can start. Most of the locking-effect will be gone, unless it has separated into hard particles which make it hard to undo the bolt. If you tighten or loosen a Locktited bolt you should always clean it thoroughly and apply (enough) Locktite. If you do this Locktite might be better then copper-based grease but you will use a looooong time to check the bolts on your bike and it’s a boring job to clean all the nuts. “Correct” way of checking the bolt is loosen it and then tighten it…. For bolts that you don’t mess with often (clutch and so on) Locktite might be the best option. Yes, I know a lot of people disagree… |
It's just experience, if you believe you can loosen something, or get it off you will. Doubting yourself is definitely not going to help you, try to toughen up and if you need to undo something, give it everything you have!
I would also recommend taking your bikes off-road a few times before departing to get some experience... as you would be far better off getting stuck on a one day trip than in the middle of africa. |
Electrical connectors shouldn't shake loose. A bit of vaseline is a good way to keep them corrosion free.
Loctite is only necessary on a very few bolts. I agree that copper grease is the way to go. When loosening nuts and bolts it's all about LEVERAGE (and not over tightening in the first place!) Get nice long spanners or socket wrench. Alternatively, while it's hard to describe, it's possible to link the ring end of one spanner round the open jaws of another in order to increase the overall length of the working spanner. Loctite, as already stated shouldn't overly affect the difficulty of loosening a nut. Matt :) |
Copper slip (aka copper grease.copper ease) is the way to go!
DO NOT use it on any part of the fule system, carbs etc though. Locktite things like alternator/stator bolts etc - stuff that you cannot access and is not exposed. Replace any worn bolts so that you get good contact for undoing and take a bit of pipe - you can use this to get extra leverage and compensate for any gender-based stength disparity. I wouldn't locktite any electrical connectors! Plus-gas penetrating fluid will loosen most bits pretty well, spray on, have a cup of tea and hey-presto! It is always prudent to lockwire all bits of your bike on - this way if anything does work loose and come off you won't lose it! Carry some spare bolts.... A dab of silicone sealant around the bolt head can help prevent stuff from vibrating loose and is easy to peel off if you need to take the bolt out. Again, riding naked would ensure a following trail of 'Knights in white armour' to get those stubborn bolts out! |
we used to use loctite
Hi, just my two cents.
When I was in the boating industry, every year when the powerboat came out the water, we'd undo and take out the shafts. Now all around the top of the shaft is a plate that fits snug with the other plate joined to the engine. There were big bolts all around the plate about 12 in total 20 mm thick. nut and bolted. We'd do all the maintenance and then put it all back together, tightening the nuts with locktite. Good sealant, good in water. It wouldn't be looked at again until the following year. When it was time to take it off the following year, it certainly wasn't a problem to get them undone. Now where heat is involved, I'd be tempted to go for something else. ta-all-the-way |
also the grade of loctite is something to consider. Red is very strong. Blue is less strong but not permanent, and there is also a self wicking locktite that will penetrate exposed threads into the nut on exposed fasteners.
Steve |
Spanners
As Matt said, "it's possible to link the ring end of one spanner round the open jaw of another"
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2.../Spannersc.jpg http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...Spanners1c.jpg |
Get a 1/2" drive socket set with single-hex sockets of good quality. Carry not only the ratchet, but also the sliding T-bar. You can put a tube or similar onto that to extend the leverage. With this arrangement there won't be many bolts that will resist you. Undoing bolts is often more a case of technique than strength. Let a mechanic show you the tricks.
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Loctite is not evil.. Its the incorrect use of loctite and people using the wrong strengh in the wrong places which can give it a bad rep. It keeps corrosion out and DOES NOT make bolts harder to remove if used properly.
You have an XT600Es if i remember correcly (same as me). If your overlanding on these you WILL lose bolts which will shake loose. You physically cant tighten some of them without them breaking to prevent this. You HAVE TO loctite brake disc and brake caliper bolts for safety reasons. I use mild loctite on some secondary bolts such as the exhaust heatshield and bodywork bolts without problems and this is common practice with offroad bikes. Just only use a couple of drops and use the weakest variety. Electrrical connector shouldnt be difficult to pull apart if they are clean and not damaged. Maybe a good idea to check and clean them all. Good and proper use of good tools makes a HUGE difference to the ease of a job. Buy a good set of tools and be taught or learn how to use them. Nothing serious but basic knowledge goes a long way.. I would recommend getting a set of ratchet Spanners (halfords Professional are good) and a decent socket set. Feel free to PM me or anything if you want anymore info.. |
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Don't. Most unreliable joint you can make, except for Scotch-Loks They are meant for solid wire and your stranded stuff will break where the screw bites it. Not even very good if you tin the ends before connecting. Useful as an emergency repair though. Take some with you and a roll of self amalgamating tape. John |
lol hi girls, the guys are righ (for once!) go sparing with the loctite, use it only on nuts and bolts that you are fairly sure you wont need to get off except in an emergency and inside the engine on the small nuts and bolts that cause a big mess if the come out.
I'm a big loctite fan and would rather i had problems getting a bolt out when i want than it falling out when i dont!... BUT in places where locktite is not practical use nord-lock washers and Schnorr washers (there like spring washers but way better!) use nylock nuts aswell and K-nuts. Dont put copper grease near anything electrical.. for that use vasaline or proper 'electrical contact grease' as copper greae is metal based and it will cause a short! and as Redboots says dont use scotchlocs, catch you doing that and i will sent the boys round and make you watch endless repeats to the cup final as they are very nasty!!! enjoy the trip.. Jen |
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As Henry says, taking a piece of pipe which fits snugly over your spanners also works well. Matt :) |
your only supposed to put a tiny dab of loctite on the thread, it stops the fastener vibrating loose not glue it in there.
if you find it hard to undo a screw then you probably did it up too tight in the 1st place, there is no need and you strain the metal. standard torque for a 5 or 6mm bolt is only between 5-10Nm, easy for the average person to do with a screwdriver let alone a spanner! TREAT YOUR NUTS PROPERLY AND THEY WILL LOOK AFTER YOU FOR A LONG TIME |
Sound advice!!
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:rofl: Impasto, you probably have got the message by now. |
There are different grades of Loctite some are permanent, others are designed to be dissembled .
Heating to above 350 degrees will break the seal and allow the nut or screw to be undone .You can heat it with a soldering iron [ if it's a small screw for instance ] or with a propane or similar gas torch . Stubborn or rusted nuts can be loosened by heating to cherry red and allowing to cool a little .The heating and expansion breaks the ring of oxidation and allows the nut to be undone , it's best to heat the nut quickly so that the bolt does not get too hot .[Oxy acetylene or propane torches are best for this or take the end off your butane soldering iron ] . If all else fails ,soaking with a penetrating oil or WD40 overnight may help on rusty or stubborn nuts . To prevent nuts from backing off due to vibration ,use ,Nyloc nuts, lock washers ,tab washers , spring washers or double nut the bolts . Copper coat is excellent stuff and you will bless the day that you discovered it . Electrics - I'm sure that you will want to learn how to use a soldering iron [ the little butane powered ones are my favorite ] . Then try and dispense with as many superfluous connectors as you can . Either run wires staright to where they need to go without connectors ,or solder the bared twisted wire ends together and cover with splicing tape or shrink-on tubes . [The critics and experts may not approve but years of living in salty corrosive conditions brought me to this conclusion] . Use vaseline on bullet or spade connectors and battery terminals . Make a note of every spanner that you will need on your bike and try to buy a longer version of it for more leverage ,in some cases this will not be practical .A small length of pipe can be slid over ratchet handles to give more leverage for sockets . Legs are stronger than arms , a gentle push on a spanner with your foot will often do the trick . Getting an assistant to give a bolt head a whack with a hammer whilst you apply pressure with a spanner can also break nuts free , this also works with screwdrivers . If you mess up a Philips screw head you can cut a slot in the head with a hacksaw , or better still , use an angle grinder with a thin "Zipcut" disc to cut the slot . Then you can use a big beefy screwdriver to undo the screw [ the heat from ginding also helps] . Six sided ring spanners and sockets are less likely to round off the corners of nuts than 12 sided ones and are usually stronger . Doing the girly thing and waiting for a Knight in shining armour won't always work ,[ I suspect you're kidding anyway ] , so eat British Beef , drink pints , do strength training and learn to string about 7or 8 swear words together really vociferously and I think you'll find that any nut will come undone . |
Some can be tight (they are waterproof).
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If you use only a small dab of Locktite you will still have the corrosion-problem and bolts might be hard to get off.
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Stringing several together is a skill that increases the force exponentially and is easier than might be expected. Adding 'ing' to the end of 99% of swear words enables them to be followed by another expletive of similar colour. For example "b*ll*cking, sh*tting, f***!" has worked well for me in the past. Swearing can also be used to relax between failed attempts to loosen stubborn fasteners. Anthropomorphising your vehicle in combination with offensive insults is proven to be eight times more effective than yogic breathing. For example my Enfield more than once suffered the soubriquet "You unspeakable f***ing, c*cking, a*seing bast*rd! I hate your sodding guts! As soon as we get home I'm going to buy a Yamaha!" Allowing yourself to go red in the face while shaking your fist in the direction of the vehicle is a more advanced skill, but is easy to master with practice. The soothing effect of this has enabled me to retain a healthy, loving relationship with both my Enfield and my Yamaha. Hope this helps. Matt :) |
Swearing
I also use the Basil Fawlty approach.
Giving your vehicle a sound thrashing with a flexible item of wood is also a good idea. Research has shown that it is effective in itself. But swearing like a trooper at the same time actually has a compound effect. The result is more than the sum of the individual actions. |
Righty titey lefty loosey
Let me preface my opinions by stating that I have worked in motorcycle shops for 30+ years and I enjoy riding clapped out bikes on gravel roads like the Dempster in canada and around my great state of Montana USA where only 25% of the roads are paved.(Stop by if you are headed north, we live between yellowstone and glacier parks) Electrical connections: the modern japanese ones are great for sealing out stuff especialy if you use a little dielectic grease. But if they have been coated in mud and yak dung the release clips get fouled up. I have done loads of work on Yamaha and Honda 4 wheelers used in ranching and it takes some carefull cleaning and picking it get them apart. For external vibration load fasteners my personal favorite is clear silicone RTV. I use it on the threads of the bolt and nut to seal out corrosion and keep things tight even after occasional removing and replacing. RTV meaning room temperature vulcanizing. Here in the states it is sold as silicone seal in 3 ounce tubes. Various grades of locktite have a use on the proper bolt but it seems working in a bike shop I have run into locktited bolts with a 4mm allen head. The allen head promply strips and is in a place that is hard to get a slot cut in it. Or it is surrounded by plastic so it gets a little dodgy trying to heat it red hot. For a messed up nut or screw that won't come loose I carry a small hammer and a centerpunch ground to a tiny chisel point and a small cold chisel. Use the centerpunch to turn the screw out by starting a notch and then tapping in the direction you want the screw to go. This works on everything including large nuts like countershaft holding nuts. This is mainly useful when I don't have my 400 ft pound air wrench handy. Most mechanical problems can be fixed with 90% patience and 10% tools and knowledge so don't let the reluctant fasteners get you down.
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When I was younger I wondered what it was that made my dad such a good mechanic (he's fully restored two vintage cars, one from a bare chassis) and me such a poor, apopleptic, bleeding fingered, vital part missing, kneeling on the ground shaking my fists at the skies, mechanic. Then, watching him in action one day I realised what it was: PATIENCE! He always has the time to read any notes, select the CORRECT tools (as opposed to the nearest ones) lay everything out carefully, clean everything up...etc. This approach also meant he often took less time to do stuff than I would (searching as I was amongst the rags, lumps of dried mud and tools for that particular nut) and he would refuse to get angry. These days, the first thing I do whenever I'm doing some work on my bike or car is try to emulate this style of working. Matt |
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I used to work for an agricultural contractor , all of our equipment was just about on it's last legs and broke down a lot . He used to vent his frustration by throwing his cap on the floor and jumping up and down on it . He would then shout "Don't laugh , don't laugh or you're fired !" We usually got fired and went down the pub , he'd arrive a bit later, have a pint and we'd go back to the job . One day we had a Drott crawler loader break down , something in the gearbox -can't really remember , a proper repair involved stripping the machine down and splitting it ,about a two day job . He went and got his 4 year old son from nursery school , stripped him to the waist and held him upside down in the gearbox by his feet , while the boy with his small hands got between the gears and fixed the machine . His wife was furious and he hid , while WE got a damn good b*llocking from his missus for allowing it . Local farmers used to say it was the highlight of their year when we came to do the harvesting as the boss's antics were so entertaining . |
For the electrical connectors use a little Di-electric grease on all of them before you go an bring a little along with you its the right "tool" for the job. Use blue locktight it will hold the nuts on will enof.
To get the nuts off use a breaker bar or a pipe on the end of the ratchet or wrench. If that fails you can shock the nut with a hammer or use the hammer the end of the ratchet or the heat and oil trick. For the electrical connectors there are ears at the side of the thigs most of the times pull them out of the way before you start pulling them. If they dont let go try to wiggle them a bit back and forth while pulling them. Clean off the corrosion and use some Di-electric grease after you get them lose. Corrosion is what stops most things comming apart easy stop that and you will have much less problems. After that its stripped nuts and bolts they need to be replaced. (bring a few with you on a big trip) When you go to put it all back together dont over tighten the nuts no one likes that :eek3:. |
[QUOTE=Dodger;179583]Patience is a by-product of raising children !
QUOTE] Ha! So that's why MY dad is SUCH a good mechanic! ;) Love your story about your old boss! Matt :) |
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