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-   -   '88 XT600U bog and backfiring (https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/yamaha-tech/88-xt600u-bog-and-backfiring-70300)

Walkabout 26 May 2013 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjrider (Post 422694)
By the sounds of it the TT600 has a handlebar mounted decompression lever? The TT model must have been a Europe version of the XT or something like that, none of my OEM parts sources lists a TT600. I found a picture of a TT head and it has the same decomp. lever and bracket as mine so the handlebar perch and cable from a TT should be a direct bolt on.

jjrider,
No, the decomp system is automatic on the TTR600, much as you have been dealing with I guess; a cam system that lifts the valve as the engine is turned over.

Anyway, sorry to read about your ongoing issues with your own kicker.
I got into the habit of kicking over the TTR600 engine while standing next to the bike - on the RHS and kicking with the right leg. This was partly because of the height of saddle but also because when it did backfire I did very little damage to my foot/ankle because I used the forward (toe) part of my boot rather than the instep. When it did backfire, my foot was more flexible and would just fly off the kicker instead of taking a "rebound" via the length of my leg.
It's also an easier kicking stance when you are fiddling with the carb at the same time (I had float valve problems).

Zergman 26 May 2013 08:13

My XT600 has never injured me. Actually I can kickstart it with slippers! It probably only backfired once, when I had a broken decompression cable, and had to start the bike without it for a few days in a row... I don't really know why but it's really easy kicking.

I had a Suzuki DR600 before Yamaha, and the Suzuki was a pain in the ass to kick! It had both manual (with hand-lever) and automatic (with kickstart lever) decompression systems. I was fiddling with both cable tensions, and nothing worked. I got some backfires, but they only threw my leg in the air so my boot sole scraped the top of the tank. But one time it backfired so bad it really injured my ankle, and I almost passed out from pain. I ended up selling the bike and getting an XT600 with kick and electric start (back then I did not know how easy XT600 starts... At least the ones I looked at and took for a spin before buying).

Maybe it's because of it's age (different model I mean). Your Yamaha is '88, my Suzuki was '86 or '87 I can't remember now. And my Yamaha is '93 with '97 engine. Maybe they improved something over time?

I'd say don't do quick decisions, heal up, let it sit a while, and if it doesn't kick over EASILY with ignition off, then don't try it with ignition on... Or it will hurt you again. I was limping for a few months when I injured myself.

Don't know what advice to give right now... Just heal and think. It will come to you.

P.S. maybe your ignition timing is too early?

jjrider 26 May 2013 20:07

Zergman, I had a '91 Suzuki DS650 and it kicked easier than this one, plus never backfired on me, though I bought it new and owned it for 3 years so it wasn't to that "aged" point where things act up. I regret selling it to this day!!
In 1990 quite a bit changed on the Xt's bikes(now looking how to add electric). The carbs are different to a point, then totally change in '95-'96ish, after 1990, non here the states as far as can tell had kick, that is also the cutoff year for used parts on ebay, very few parts after '89, I think that says that once the electric comes out, most people keep them going rather than scrapping them.
I'm quite sure it is firing early, and that's the backfire. I spun the motor over by electric drill yesterday on the stator nut and it was sparking like crazy, so spark+gas+air = running, unless timing is bad. No adjustment for timing though and $125-$200 for a used cdi that "may" work, or another $125+ for the used pulse pickup and stator, which is the other likely culprit.

I'm trying to picture how Walkabout started his, by standing on the right, I'd have to kick with my left, and then a backfire would likely put my knee into my chin:nono:. Right now to kick mine, I have to push down on that kick lever like I'm tring to drive it 2 feet into the ground, it's that speed that it takes to fire it up, slower results in these backfires usually.

I was hoping to do some traveling up north this summer, possibly into Canada, but I need a bike that I can rely on, my '83 Honda isn't a long distance runner anymore, though reliable, just getting worn out.

Walkabout 26 May 2013 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjrider (Post 423712)
I'm quite sure it is firing early, and that's the backfire. I spun the motor over by electric drill yesterday on the stator nut and it was sparking like crazy, so spark+gas+air = running, unless timing is bad. No adjustment for timing though and $125-$200 for a used cdi that "may" work, or another $125+ for the used pulse pickup and stator, which is the other likely culprit.

I'm trying to picture how Walkabout started his, by standing on the right, I'd have to kick with my left, and then a backfire would likely put my knee into my chin:nono:. Right now to kick mine, I have to push down on that kick lever like I'm tring to drive it 2 feet into the ground, it's that speed that it takes to fire it up, slower results in these backfires usually.

TTR600s are/were rarer than the XT in the UK and I don't think they would be imported to the States, but they look like this, which shows the height of the saddle:-
ttr600 in Motorcycles & Scooters | eBay
Hence, with short legs, my starting technique was to stand next to the bike and kick it over using the right leg - kind of reaching across with that leg & with the body weight on the left leg and close to the bike for overall balance.

Here's another earlier thread about kicking over the TTR, but it applies to the XT as well, IMO (but your use of the throttle on start up might vary):-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...00-r-how-32814

ps The search in here works quite well nowadays (it didn't always). You can see more threads about kicking over your bike in here:-
Search | Horizons Unlimited

jjrider 27 May 2013 00:28

Before this last "episode" I attempted the procedure listed above for turning it over 2 or 3 times then going till the decompression lever clicked, then let the kick lever up to top and then gave it the almighty startup kick. It backfired every single time I did that, so I quit it. Up till this it didn't backfire at all since the last bad one and it was starting reliable 1 or 2 kicks, just had that constant stumble/miss. Also the last time it did this I had just filled up with super unleade 91octane, then by draining and switching to 87 from another station, it started up again. I was running on that gas all the while till I filled up again with 91super, but at the same station that I got the 87 from.It wouldn't start after that. It couldn't possibly be that it HATES 91 octane (no ethanol), and will only run on 87(with ethanol)???? I do know the bike is running rich, black sooty plug, but I put in an iradium plug the morning before.
Is there any chance the regulator could cause the miss, due to it not missing for the first minute, then the miss starts. Also when I rode to work at 40F, it ran better(less missing/stumbling) than when the temp was warmer later in the day. Something was staying cooler and allowing it to run better.
The rich running condition wouldn't cause that much missing could it? Smaller pilot? lower the needle in the primary carb? Out of sinc carbs? It ran great under acceleration!

Walkabout 27 May 2013 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjrider (Post 423742)
Before this last "episode" I attempted the procedure listed above for turning it over 2 or 3 times then going till the decompression lever clicked, then let the kick lever up to top and then gave it the almighty startup kick. It backfired every single time I did that, so I quit it. Up till this it didn't backfire at all since the last bad one and it was starting reliable 1 or 2 kicks, just had that constant stumble/miss. Also the last time it did this I had just filled up with super unleade 91octane, then by draining and switching to 87 from another station, it started up again. I was running on that gas all the while till I filled up again with 91super, but at the same station that I got the 87 from.It wouldn't start after that. It couldn't possibly be that it HATES 91 octane (no ethanol), and will only run on 87(with ethanol)???? I do know the bike is running rich, black sooty plug, but I put in an iradium plug the morning before.
Is there any chance the regulator could cause the miss, due to it not missing for the first minute, then the miss starts. Also when I rode to work at 40F, it ran better(less missing/stumbling) than when the temp was warmer later in the day. Something was staying cooler and allowing it to run better.
The rich running condition wouldn't cause that much missing could it? Smaller pilot? lower the needle in the primary carb? Out of sinc carbs? It ran great under acceleration!

I'm pretty clueless with the "black box" technology of CDIs etc, but the heat issue does point that way, as per earlier posts in here - the usual advice is to obtain a replacement part and do a one-for-one swop, but I guess these things for your year are quite rare nowadays.
Buying one is the obvious way, but swopping out, temporarily, with a buddies bike is an alternative.
The prices you mentioned earlier are in the same ball park as those asked in the UK, if that is of any consolation.

Zergman 27 May 2013 07:45

I know how frustrating it gets... Again, with a DR600, if I failed to kick it first try - forget it, it won't start (or it will backfire badly). Even warm/hot it was a misery to kickstart it. Always jumping on the kick lever as if I'm willing to break it, or as you say, bury my foot 2 feet into the ground. But it ran really good once started!

Get a manual, check the pickup coil for resistance, if it meets specifications, then CDI if it meets specs. Something is wrong with it, and it's no miracle... Find a good (bike) electrician, maybe he could shed some light on it.

I've heard of electronic bike/car components that used to function too early when warmed up. It might be the case there too.

Good luck!
Tadas.

jjrider 2 Jun 2013 23:06

Well I got the replacement parts that broke from the kickstarter backfiring. I see that when it does this I am still pushing on the kicklever and it prevents the starter cogs from disengaging and it slams into the stop plate, thus shearing the bolts(which are not made anymore).
I got a low mile cdi online to swap out plus drained the 91octane premium gas and put some 87 back in. I took the chance and decided to start it and concentrated on "the procedure". It fired up in 2 kicks and ran same as usual, purred great for a minute then started to miss, but not nearly as much. I did turn up the idle speed and that helps.

The local Yamaha dealer told me in all the years working on these and other Yamaha's, the number 1 failure electrical part is the pulse pick-up, by a big margin to the next part =cdi. So I am looking for a new stator/pulse generator for the bike.(I don't care to buy this one used). I've seen several companies that offered some but they all are different from each other so I have to do some calling to find which one is the correct one.


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