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Which bike ?
I'm in the process of finding a new bike.
And I'm going on the used market (but not too used), here in Canada and Quebec, usually the used bikes are good deal because the season are short. AWY. So I'm looking at the Tiger 800 xc, V Strom, F800 Bmw (don't know the acronym for the trail one, KTM of some sort, Honda (nothing except the new africa twin, but seem a little diasapointing bike ?). Sure I will do trail with it but road too and on the road two persons will be on the bike (big GS, think it's too big ?). I'm 5 feet 10 inches tall, 210 pounds, not fat but big....58 years old, 35 years of road experience but less then one year on trail. Oh and yesss my dream are to have enough time to go to South America, long time dream. So know help a poor felow here.. |
where to start
So you need something light enough to be able to pick up and throw around and big and powerful enough to carry two people and luggage? Oh and easy to maintain! I have never found the holy grail of bikes so I have two an NX650 which feels like a pizza bike and takes me anywhere and the Kawasaki for two up travel on strictly tarmac. For me at least the question should be can you pick up any of those bikes you mentioned with luggage on them?
I got rid of my Transalp which was similar to the V strom because when I dropped it I could feel a hernia coming on when I tried to get it upright again. I am ever so slightly older than you and roughly the same size. Working on them is also something to consider. Do yo have to take loads of plastic off to get to the plugs or air filter, does the tank have to come off to get to the plugs if you want to change them. The tank on the tiger is a real pain to remove and it took two of us to remove my mates, one to hold it up and the other to disconnect the electrical gubbins which you cant get to with the tank siting on the frame. Just a few things for you to perhaps consider? Best of luck and let us know how you get on. |
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The new Africa Twin (IMO) would probably do best off road in the small group listed, or perhaps a KTM? The best would be the old 950SE. Combining two up comfort with good off road ability is sort of reaching for the Holy Grail. Lots will depend on YOU and your riding skills ... and the bravery of your pillion! :blushing: Best value of your list is the Vstrom. So reliable and so tough. Great two up and room for luggage. With proper tires it's not bad on basic dirt/gravel roads. :mchappy: |
For mostly paved and dirt roads and eventually a trip to South America, can't beat a V-Strom. Price and reliability make it a better choice than the others you mention, capability are all about the same.
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Tiger: good package, lots of farkles, but if you crash it/heavy drop, you're not going further- like so many machines, if you kill the speedo cluster, you're done for as everything runs through there. crashbars mount onto the engine casing- you drop it, you break it. subframes have a tendency to crack, but can be repaired. 1st gear is too long for trail riding- you spend a lot of time on the clutch. 800GS: good machine, but BMW build quality not upto standard. If you do plenty of kms, you'll spend more on this bike for maintenance items, such as steering-head bearings etc. You'll need to spend some money on the suspension package for two-up with luggage, which can be expensive. Tried and tested machine, but also runs everything through the speedo cluster. I've seen 800GS's stranded because of simple things like harness wires breaking when the bike gets dropped Strom- road biased - see comments below. Best fuel range of all the bikes listed (on the standard tank). AT: trail biased. rear suspension will need an upgrade/service rebuild for two-up touring with luggage ($400-1000). parts availability a bit of a problem at the moment, but this will improve over the next year as the model is rolled out. Quote:
Also- the V-strom has the least ground clearance off all the machines. That with the other aspects of the purchase package makes it a machine with a limited off-road capability. |
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The power of the Tiger is addictive and the BMW has low center of gravity and low first gear so good for slow stuff - but price and reliabilty wise - you cant beat the V-strom. None of these bikes are good off roaders though - way too big and heavy. |
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That's a matter of opinion, not a fact :oops2: A lighter, more trail oriented machine will lack 2-up (with luggage) capability. It's all a compromise, but all of these bike are seriously capable offroad (even the Strom) in the hands of a competent rider. |
Strom in the sand...
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...3563Medium.jpg Can be a handful... http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...3575Medium.jpg But it'll get you wherever your dreams will take you http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...8887Medium.jpg As with any machine, the biggest constraint it the rider http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...6919Medium.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...0504Medium.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...0513Medium.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...4197Medium.jpg |
some pics of other people on stroms in stupid places...
http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/r...BR2008-167.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cioy68xh5dY/maxresdefault.jpg http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/r...008-165web.jpg http://img.youtube.com/vi/BNx-bSoiAz4/0.jpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nENfDX3eXpU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Ph0wVsscI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6DJgksyfNg |
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A bigger bike might handle more luggage better but then again - overloaded are underprepared... |
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Sorry, we're highjacking the thread, but what is overloaded? One person's idea differs from another when it comes to what is essential to take along. I have a mate who is a minimalist. He takes the clothes he wares, basic tools for tyre repair, a bivvy and a satphone when he goes remote. His safety net is the satphone- if anything breaks on the bike, he calls someone to come and help. His gear weighs around 10kg. Me, I take food, water, more tools, spare tubes, a comfortable swag with a mattress etc. I do not intend to call for help unless I'm lying in a ditch with a broken leg or the bike is totally cactus. But my gear generally ways in around 60kg. So who's better prepared or who's overloaded? Me or him? It's all a matter or perspective. IMO, One thing most 'lighter bike is better' advocates tend to forget is Power-to-weight ratio. A KLR / XT with 60kg of luggage is more of a handful on a sand track than a more powerful, but heavier machine like the 800's or the AT. Now Ninja asked about specific bikes. He already indicated two-up traveling. Even if he only stays in hotels, then my logic would suggest that he will be looking at an all-rounder machine that will be comfortable for long distance travel, carry a load of at least 150kg (not that unreasonable- 2 people + 10kg of luggage - more likely, it will be closer to >180kg). Not a comfortable option/proposition on a smaller machine IMO. Been there, done that, not going back. |
Yes we are hijacking the thread - and sorry for that. I also didnt notice that TS indicated two up travel. Anyhow - two up off road on a relatively big bike? How many % of his trips with two up will be off road? A decent dirt road - no big problem but loose gravel, sand, single lane paths, ruts, stockpaths etc - I dont think that will be much % of two up riding. But two-up and off road is a bit condradictive. Its like saying Im going to run a marathon - in army boots. Not a thing most people would do.
When it comes to bike size and amount of luggage. How many times have you heard any overland traveller say - I wish I took a bigger and heavier bike? And - I wish I brought more stuff, luggage and equipment? And how many times have you heard the opposite? I wish I took less stuff and equipment with me! And I wish I rode a smaller bike, lighter bike, more nimble bike etc? Thats what you here all the time. Nobody wishes they brought more stuff and bigger bikes - everybody wishes they had less stuff and smaller/lighter bikes. And why? Because people understand when they have had a bit of experience. Nobody who takes a 1000 cc on a long travel takes a 1200 next long travel. The chance they downscale is very much bigger - and why? Because they learn and get experience. You mention power to weight ratio. Well power is good and fun to have but people travel around the world on Vespa 50 ccs and Aussie postie bikes - so power isnt neccesary for long distance travelling. But it is fun - no doubt about that. In the end you will need to come down to a compromise between size, power, cost, reliability etc. |
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Like I said- we move in different circles and each to his own |
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As I said - never heard of an overlander going up in bike and equipment size (have you?) - but heaps of them (almost all) are downsizing. Which clearly indicates that most people in general think they will be better off with bigger bikes than ideally is the best. And thats a fact! Anyhow - maybe get the thread back on track again.... |
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I did plenty of traveling on bikes ranging from 350-650cc (singles). I still have singles. If I have a choice for riding, I take one of the big bikes. And this is not just me, but most of my mates as well. Like I said- we move in different circles. Very few of my mates have gone bike to small bikes. But regardless, this discussion is pointless. You have your opinion. My original point being- its your opinion and not facts. Maybe its based on your experience, but still an opinion. I have mine, based on my experience. We can have a pissing contest to see who's got the most experience, but what would the point in that be? You made the statement before "Nobody wishes they brought more stuff and bigger bikes - everybody wishes they had less stuff and smaller/lighter bikes" and you ask again "never heard of an overlander going up in bike and equipment size (have you?) " and I stated (twice) my friends are different to yours because most of us prefer bigger bikes. So just by that - you have heard people prefer bigger bikes, you just refuse to accept it. Pointless discussion. As for your other comments about not being prepared, wishing for things you had. Again- your preference. Me and some other people prefer the motto 'better to have and not to need, than to need and not to have' Each to his own, i.e. every person has/are entitles to their own opinion. And that's a fact!! |
Sarcasm and bigotry seldom make good advices and not in this case either.
I wish you could raise your head a bit above that minor circle of mates you keep on refering to - then you might get a bigger picture of the subject. Mollydog for example - earlier on in this thread says exactly the same as I do and he is a very experienced guy. And the same advices are given by world travellers from all over the world. Choosing a bike to travel with will always be a compromise - reliability, size, weight, brand etc etc. Most experienced guys that have crossed a continent or two will tell you that you will seldom benefit from having a big and heavy bike when it comes to overland trips and that weight means almost EVERYTHING going offroad. Then its up to each and everyone to listen and make their choice. Of the 3 bikes mentioned by TS - I have already pointed in a direction and said what I mean. And I can repeat it - relatively good bikes all of them but none are good off road bikes. Theyre at least 50-75 kilos too heavy..... Each to their own of course - but it wont hurt listening to persons who have been there and done that. Safe riding. |
It wasn't meant as sarcasm or bigotry mate. My apologies.
Just some travel journals of 'big bike preference':
There are plenty of examples out there. It's not a matter of me and my "minor circle of friends". And if you put any faith into statistics, the large ADV motorcycles outsell the small/medium motorcycles by a sizeable margin. Accepted, all these people may not go offroad, or know what they are doing, but still, there are more people out there thinking big than there are thinking small. I did not disagree with what you or Molly said about the concept of thinking of a lighter bike. What I've been disagreeing with is your 'statements' of 'facts', because they are not facts. Simply your opinions which I do respect. I disagree with Mollydog on many things, including soft/hard luggage debate, but Mollydog didn't flog his recommendations/opinions as facts. Had he done so, I would have commented the same. I respect every person's opinion, but there is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to travel, and we're all different with personal preferences and needs. |
I think the three travellers you mention are the exception these days. I know you could add Ewan and Charlie to the list and there are probably dozens of people currently travelling on 1200GSs but even so the trend in Europe is towards smaller lighter bikes. There are currently several 650cc bikes available that are quite capable on the road and much easier to handle off road and as travelling light is the way to go we no longer need the overweight 'beast of burden'.
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You both make very good, cogent arguments ... and both have provided food for thought to me and everyone! bier I doubt the OP knew what he was getting in for here! :smartass:
BTW, I don't see bigotry or sarcasm in any posts here ... just differences of opinion ... and possibly some misunderstandings. :innocent: In terms of "Trends" in bikes I must say I see many riders, especially newer, younger, poorer and less experienced riders going with smaller bikes. Will they stay on a 125cc bike? Some will, some will move up. Remember, many never rode bikes before ... so would be dumb to start off on a R1200GS. Guys with more experience and talent can handle a big bike, plenty of the old guard still out there on the road. :thumbup1: Part of (IMO) what is fueling this perceived shift to smaller bikes in one segment of riders is AGE. For me, at 68, I no longer have the strength (or bottle) to handle a GS or KTM. I'm also too short and no longer willing to ride aggressive enough to make it through tough sections. If you don't attack it, it will beat you. I did through my 30's 40's and 50's so I DO have experience on the big bikes. GS, Vstrom Tigers, Capo Nord, Buell. And as mentioned at great length ... both have advantages and disadvantages. For new riders, experience is the best teacher. And, IMO, new riders SHOULD be starting out on small bikes ... then ... if they want to ... can move up to something bigger. But for most doing long journeys are more often road rides as opposed to dirt rides. More adventurous folk will go off Piste and explore. For this, (for me) I prefer something I can lift and won't kill me if it falls on me. My DR650 is borderline OK ... off road I still have to be careful when she's loaded. So, many riders stay on road on big bikes. All good. bier |
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I purposely left out C&E because they are sponsored and hence by definition biased. True, we don't 'need' the beast of burden, but very few people tend to buy what they need. LOL If we did, we'd probably all be riding postie bikes or similar because you don't really need more than that ;-) |
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All I have said is that a lighter bike is easier and lighter to handle - and especially when and if going offroad. And using statistics for what? Justin Beaver sells a lot of records and concert tickets - so he must be a fantastic artist??? McDonalds sells more food than any other restaurant chain - thus using your way of "proving" things it must be the best restaurant with the best and healthiest food around... About your examples - that guy you claim did 279 countries. Quite strange that there arent more than some approx - 190 countries in the world. You must not belive in all exaggeration you hear.... And without checking facts - I do belive a 1200 GS is lighter than a 1150 GS. Anyhow - you can also run a marathon in army boots - its possible and might even have some advantages. But I would prefer doing it in something more suitable. And then we are back to the question of the TS of which bike is best suited for his needs. You can go around the world in anything you like of small and big bikes, 50 cc Vespas or 1800 cc Goldwings. But what are the best suited from an objective - or as objective as possible perspective? Taking a big bike will actually limit one from going on some real off the beaten track. So why take a bike that limit your choices of where to go? If youre only doing paved roads and a relatively smooth gravel road now and then - you can take any bike, big or small. But if youre heading where most people dont go - youre much better of with a lighter bike. These are facts wheter you like it or not. If youre a hell of a skilled rider you can get quite far with a big bike too - but most people are not. And especially thinking about persons who ask for advice and are uncertain about what bike to take. There are as you say no right or no wrong way or wrong bike. But there are choices that makes it easier for an unexperienced rider. Heres some reading from Walter Colbatch of the choiche of an adventure bike. He has been riding The Road of Bones and BAM in Siberia several times and is a quite experienced guy. I think the classic observation is in there somewhere where they met different guys doing those very hardcore offroad roads in Siberia. They met guys with Superteneres and GS/GSAs and they came through these roads with their bikes in the back of a truck. They just couldnt get through those roads on those huge bikes. Then they met some guys on single cylindered 650s - and those guys said that it was freaking hard but they were able ro get through after a lot of hard work. And at last they met some guys on 250s and they told that it was just awesome and completely fun.... http://www.sibirskyextreme.com/2013/...selection-101/ |
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Personally, I just find smaller bikes too limiting for long distance travel. (vibration, lack of power, cramped and uncomfortable riding position, lack of decent wind protection etc.) That's just me. I'm bigger than the standard 70kg "Japanese model rider" and prefer the middle class big machines (e.g. 750-1000cc multi-cylinder). The 1% of the time I'm 'stuck in the mud' wishing for a smaller machine is nothing compared to the 60+% of frustration for me on a small bike. bier |
Hmm, I'm not experiencing those downsides at all on my 250 (WRR). It's actually less viby than my BMW Dakar (which was a pig in comparison). Prefer to not have a screen on it too.
It's all about frame of reference and choice of terrain. If you only have to deal with being in mud 1% of time you're probably not on demanding terrain much. So a size matters little. That does mean you're limited though. But that also depends on how much of something you can put up with. |
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I don't know if the riding I do can be called challenging by other people. I post some pics and you can decide for yourself. But- my message throughout has been (and still remains) - big bikes are just as capable as small bikes. I accept they may be more of a handful, but just as a $1million sportscar don't make you a race driver (or even a good driver), neither does a bike. Best advise I can offer- buy the bike you love/like and learn to ride it properly. And if that is a small bike, great. If you prefer a big bike, great. I certainly do not let the size of a bike dictate where I go- it simply means less/more work and time depending on the application (i.e. to me, 1000km/day on a small bike is as much a pain as 50km of mud running on a big bike). To me an all-rounder needs to do everything I want 'reasonably' and I find for my riding/application big bikes are better. My last Africa trip I used an XR650L for the 1st two weeks and a 1200GS for the last two weeks (think it was around 9kkm, but its a bit hazy now). I preferred the GS to the XR. With limited luggage, the XR struggled to reach 120km/h with 'my bulk' on it. It was OK in the ruff-stuff, but the I've done some of these tracks before on various bikes and I know the GS would have been more than capable of surviving the river crossings and other techy bits. And the single cylinders loose power quickly at altitude. http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...psnpoqrn9h.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...psdd0fehce.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...psq7xufvts.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...e255Medium.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v..._IMGMedium.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...0678Medium.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...1200Medium.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...1184Medium.jpg http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/v...psc85264fe.jpg |
To me those photos prove they are not as capable. A small bike would ride that, not be man handled or pushed up. Big difference.
But it's whatever you prefer. I wouldn't recommend this at all personally. Particularly to newbies. Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk |
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Most smaller bikes that I have experience with are taller and have wheels of 21 and 18 and actually many of the biggest so called adventure bikes are lower and comes with 19/17 wheels. Thus I cant find much compliance in what you say about this subject and reality. Wind protection and such - well its what you put on your bike and what equipement you fit. There might be more choises for wind protection for bigger bikes - thats a point but personally I often prefers less protection. High windscreens twnd to give buffeting issues and are thus uncomfortable. Often better results if you cut off 10 cm on the windscreen. I see that in a later post you complane about a bike that had problems reaching 120 km/h. Well - if your ideas about adventure riding is to ride on roads that one can ride in + 120 km/h and on bikes that can easily pass that speed when loaded up - we might have a totally different idea about adventure riding. I recently rode from northern Europe to Australia with many detours and approx. 80 k kms and I can count one hand the times I rode in 120 km/h or more and I can probably count in two hands the roads and stretches this were possible. In most of the world roads riding in 120 km an hour is not possible. And certainly not interesting....its the winding back roads, gravel roads, mountain roads etc that are interesting. Not a boring straight forward highway/freeway/motorway. And when you say dont let the size of a bike dictate where you go I cannot do anything else that smile - because the size of the bike WILL dictate where you are able to go. Thats a fact.... |
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I agree it can be more difficult on a larger bike offroad. As for the photos- I didn't bother posting pictures of 'smaller' machines being stuck. Just of areas where I ride with big bikes as an example. E.g.
So IMO, to make a statement like 'a small bike would ride that' is a bit condescending without you knowing the background behind it, and the exact circumstances. Don't mistake rider error for machine deficiency. |
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As for the rear wheel- Many of the big-singles come with a 17" rear (KLR650, DR650) and opinion differ on whether 17" or 18" tyres are better for touring- I find 18" better and easier to find in Australia and prefer the selection. So much so that I paid a lot of money to build an 18" rear wheel for my XRV750. Other parts of the world people claim the opposite (17" being easier to find). So I reject your reality and substitute my own :innocent: Quote:
I don't like freeway riding much thank you, but every so often its required. I prefer to be on a machine that is capable of staying with the traffic. In the Australian heat, tyres delaminate easy and you have to look after them. Riding a loaded bike at speed tends seriously reduce tyre life and I prefer not to. And I agree we have some different ideas of adventure riding. Mine seems to be much broader and accepts all forms, whereas yours appear to me as restrictive and narrow-minded. In my recent trip, I got caught in a Porsche train running through the mountains. I had just as much fun chasing them through the twisties on the bitumen than I did running up the beach or through the 4x4 tracks in the Flinders Mountain ranges. For my application, the best adventure bike is the one that offers me the most options. Just as I feel a certain loss at being on a road bike and not being able to go down a dirt track to see a waterfall, so I feel a loss when I want to 'push' things a bit and the throttle is against the stopper, there's a lot of noise, but not enough forward motion. And when I have the time, I also prefer slower riding because: less fuel, see more, less fatigue (wind/concentration/etc.). But I also have to be practical - we live rural and I travel for sport. A weekend is 3-4 days 1800-3000km of mixed bitumen/dirt riding with your gear. You can't realistically do this at 80km/h. Quote:
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Ok, I see we have completely different frames of reference here. A 650 might be smaller by definition but to most it still falls within the big bike category. Thankfully too as it wasn't always so. More and more people are realizing that there are small bike options. I actually sold my Dakar 650 for a WRR. Haven't looked back. The thing is fine at 110kph all day (no screen). Been doing long distance adventure riding through the open space of Wyoming riding from Calgary to Denver, ridden single trails through the bush of the sunshine coast hinterland, Qld and recently the desert trails in Baja. No way would I have ridden all that on the Dakar. Walked and ride like your pics, sure. But not ride and loving it. This is what we're referring to.
Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk |
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I have said several times in this thread that one can travel long distance or go around the world on anything you like from a 50 cc Vespa to a 1800 cc Goldwing or even bigger. You on the other hand have said that small bikes vibrate (more than big bikes) have less wind protection, a 650 struggles to do 120 with luggage etc etc. I wonder who is the more narrow minded here? Well - I let it be up to others to decide..... My main point is as I have said several times - if youre going really off road and where the going gets though - a lighter bike is a much better option. If the stretch is tough enough a heavy bike wont even get through and if one gets through with a big bike it wont be much fun. Im observe you dont get much support in your point of view here. But its no surprise as most people in here have a certain experience. Then again - on a long distance travel you will need to cole down to a compromise when choosing a bike model. As I also have mentioned several times before. Youre mention that riding in 80 km/h wont be a realistic alternative for your weekend trip. Oh my gosh - well I quite sure you could if you planned according to it. Maybe do a little longer trip than a weekend trip? And by the way - where and why did you get the 80 km/h thing in your head? I had a 100 cc when I was 16 years old and it did 130 km/h (it was a two stroker) and most 250 cc bikes have a top speed 130-140. Tmotten rides his WR 250 in 110 km/h all day. I have absolutely not challenged you in any sense of the word. And just by having such thoughts it seems obvious that you either are not able to understand or are not willing to see my main point. The only way to understand this is for one person to take a big bike and go for a real hardcore off road ride and then do same thing with a lighter bike. And then compare which was the best bike for such a ride and which bike was the most fun to ride such a stretch with. Its not a man versus man thing - its a bike versus bike thing. |
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Reading my comments again, I can see how you think I called you narrow-minded. That was certainly not meant as an insult and I am sorry. If you feel I misinterpreted your statements, sorry. But calling me a liar... like you said, maybe this is not the place. Have a nice life |
Well Squilly - said is said and written is written. When you use harsh words and expressions you must to a certain extend expect something similar back. And you did call me narrowminded ++. If that isnt disrespectful I might have misunderstood some of the english language....
I much rather keep a debate and a thread on a factual level than answering someone calling me narrowminded. I can assure you of that. So any discussion and debate that that stick to facts and of course to personal meanings as long as they are clearly separated - I think are great. I hope if we cross paths later on on the forum we can stick to facts and personal views about the issue that is discussed and not negative personal comments about eachother. |
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Im with greenmanalishi on this one. Horses for courses.
Choose the right tool for the job or choose your compromise based on what makes you most happy. I had a Xt600e single at 156Kg It would go just about anywhere 1up and carry enough gear. Off road unloaded it was OK but not ideal and motorway was a chore after a couple of hours. Now I have a 1200 240Kg bike for road touring two up with luggage but also want to get a 250 for around town, green lanes and lightweight budget trips where time is not a factor. But If I had to choose a RTW bike It would be a 600 middleweight. Air cooled, Carbs, Single cylinder Jap bike. I'd still have my XT if I thought I'd ever get the chance to go RTW :frown: Best of luck and happy travels, Dave. |
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