want these specs - which bike for London to SA?
 

I am currently planning a 12 month trip from London to South Africa and want to really get off the beaten track. I would like a bike with the following specs:

1) must be shaft drive
2) would like a hydraulic clutch
3) would like a kickstart


Obviously reliability is a must and needs to be a good handler off road / in rough terrain.

Any suggestions?

As you asked!
Reconsider the reason for your wants!

1- shaft drive -usually fitted on 'way-too-heavy' bikes. A broken/damaged one can bring your trip to a dead stop if it breaks especially in Africa! And that usually means seriously big bucks too (+ possibly abandonning your bike while you fly out to get replacements and/or pay DHL and big import duties etc.

IMHO- chose a moto with a chain, fit good steel spockets and a new DID-X ring chain.
A tiny chain breaker/riveter and a few spare links in your tool kit are worth having.

2- Chose cable operated clutch- easy to fix anywhere.
Fit a new cable before going and run a spare alongside for a quick fit.

3- kick start handy but not essential. You can always jump or bump start.

I hope I haven't rained on your 'parade' !
Africa, as with any destination further from supplies and specialists, dictates that whatever machine you decide to take MUST be reliable and as much 'fixable in the field' as possible.
Decide with your head not your heart!
Chances are you will come off and you will break something on your bike. Would you then not rather it was easy to fix ?

+1 for Bertrand's comments. Outside of Europe there's little use for anything over 800cc. If you want to actually see the countries you'll be passing through you will likely spend most of your time bumbling along at 70-80 kph.

Specifying a kick start is unnecessarily condemning you to an older selection of bikes. When you're off-road and you've stalled in a gulley so narrow you can't swing your leg you will regret not having e-start. When I had a kick-start only XR400R I yearned for a starter button.

Suggestions? At the risk of sounding boring, a BMW F650 GS single. Widely supported by accessory manufacturers. Sounds like a rather quiet lawnmower which is good as it doesn't advertise your presence long before you appear. Great fuel economy and if you can handle the height you could look at the Dakar or Sertaõ versions which have 21-in front wheels.

Boring is good ☺
 

For long haulin' the F650 Dakar . Solid and reliable (if only it could loose 20 kgs but hey.... everything is a compromise!)
But then, I'm biased but it is a good all rounder. Just learn about a couple of its foibles.

The Yam XTZ Tenere also has a good engine if, it too, could do with shedding a few kgs.
A mini jump stater power pack will start your bike ( and recharge your phone etc) if you're worried about a dead battery and FI.

Ask Tim (above) about the XT as I believe he had one.

Very wise comments so far! :thumbup1:
As mentioned, Shaft Drive usually equals BIG heavy bike over 1000cc. Not to mention reilability issues if abused off road under heavy load. Heavy meaning over 600 lbs. fully loaded.
:thumbdown:

Your words:
"... want to really get off the beaten track."

Seriously? :innocent:
IMHO, this necessitates a fairly light bike and fairly minimal gear. A F650 BMW/Dakar/Sertao are still ALL too heavy, expensive and unreliable IMO ... especially if you're a novice off road rider.

Go smaller, lighter and have FUN!

Plenty of great bikes in the 250 to 450cc range. Mostly Japanese. A few 650 class bikes may work well if you're a fairly big lad and fit. Do get some experience off road before departure. (not just a one day course!)

A few bikes to consider:
CRF250L
KLX250S
WR250R (a great bike!)
KTM 450EXC
Husqvarna 501 dual sport
Beta 450
CCM 450 Enduro (made in England)
DRZ400S
XR400 (with street kit)
XR650L
XT600 Yamaha
DR650SE
DR350S (no longer produced)

All above could be made to be good Africa explorer bikes. But, as you'll find out ... ALL bikes need proper set up if you seriously plan to "get off the beaten path". The 650's will be the best on your highway sections, comfortably cruising at 65 mph, but the worst in Mud, deep sand and tough roads or tracks.
Here the 250's shine. The 450's are sort of a middle ground rough terrain bikes.

But as mentioned, in most of Africa you'll be tootling along between 35 to 55 mph. So, even the 250's are fine for most situations. The smaller bikes require better planning to pack up, but it can be done with practice.

I'd go sit on a few bikes, get as many test rides as you can manage. Do more research. Find out what current Africa riders are riding. Don't jump into dicey off road situations without a bit of experience before hand.

Good planning!
bier

I'm just trying to think if there's anything around that has all three of those items. Plenty with 1 and 2 and probably a number with 2 and 3 but off the top of my head I'm struggling to think of anything with all three. Maybe something from the mists of time maybe?

Actually there's a reason why something from Mollydog's list would be most people's choice for a UK - SA trip. It's not because overlanders take some kind of perverse pleasure in struggling with old or superseded technology like chains or cables but because they are good enough, bush mechanic fixable and generally lighter than the alternatives. Weight, you'll find, counts for a lot, particularly when you get stuck in mud or sand and have to consider dismantling the bike to carry it out piece by piece.

Re kickstarts - if it's on your list because you consider it more reliable than electricity, that's not been my experience. I got my XR600 stuck in sand in Mauritania and snapped the kickstart off trying to restart it.

In your place top of my list would be weight followed by a reputation for reliability. Something that you can manhandle on difficult terrain and that you know will start and move under its own power every day is what makes for an easy trip. Size and power are almost irrelevant once you're out of Europe. It's not as if you're going to be rushing through the countryside - how many times are you going to be there?

Thanks for your replies

I fully understand what you say but I just love shaft drive. I used to have a cx500 and really loved it. The reliability was second to none and it never let me down once. If I contrast that with chains, having to constantly adjust them, I prefer a shaft any day. plus why not take a spare shaft with me? I know people go on about the weight but don't think it's that much.

Out of interest did anyone ever make a smaller dual sport bike with shaft drive as most of the shaft drives in dual sport are around the 1000cc mark. I know Honda made the XLV750R but that's just too rare to consider for this trip. Call me strange but add a kickstart and that would be my dream!

Been looking myself but can't see anything. Forget the hydraulic clutch for a moment, anyone know of any bikes with kickstart and shaft drive?

I have been looking at the BMW R80 G/S which is shaft drive and see some of these came with kickstarts.

Equally rare but probably less reliable, Guzzi did a shaft drive 750 D/S iirc (NTX750?). If we're looking at older stuff the original GoldWing was a shafty with a kick start and while I took mine round Morocco that's about as far south as I'd want to go on it. However, in three years of ownership I never once managed to get it to start on the kickstart. Likewise my current CCM604 - electric and kick but it never ever starts on the kickstart. I don't know how user friendly the kickstart on the R80 GS (probably my first choice with your criteria) is but there's not much point in having something if it doesn't work.

Re CX500s - I had a 650 which needed a fair bit of work - electrical mainly (alternator x2, reg/rec,) + cam chain, head gasket, exhaust baffles and brake hydraulics. It ended its days (with me anyway) after a valve broke and wrecked the left hand cylinder. All in about 25k miles. Mine may have been a Friday afternoon bike but that wasn't a good record. Just goes to show that people's experiences are different.

Take a spare shaft? Phew!

Ted? Paging *Touring Ted*!:laugh:

How about this: BMW R80GS DAKAR STUNNING RESTORATION For Sale (1987) on Car And Classic UK [C674449] Nice, but probably a bit pricey for a trip through Africa. Or how about the current Guzzi V7 with knobblies and a decent set of rear shocks? You don't need a trail bike to do that trip.

David 151 There you go!

The BMW R26 or R27 fits your list with the exception of the hydraulic clutch!:blushing:
Not that I would recommend it.

247cc, 18HP, Shaft drive, kick start, single cylinder, carb easy to fix/clean

I have a Scottoiler fitted, and I'm about to adjust my chain the first time this year! That's not exactly constantly!

The CX series V-Twin Honda's were legendary. Great bikes with many couriers getting 200K miles out of them. Could it be a good travel bike? It could, but would be tough in certain off road conditions. If you stick to dirt roads and nothing too tough, it could be a good bike. You should consider one, even though its from another era, it could still work.

I fear your experience with Chains and chain drive bikes goes back to the Dark Ages. I never have to adjust my chain and routinely get 20K Plus miles out of one. The latest DID X Ring chains are quite remarkable ... nothing like the "bad old days". Different world mate.

The weight of shaft drive can be figured. And it's not just the shaft that breaks: bearings, U joints, splines, housings ... and of course the shaft itself. Probably about 5 to 7 kgs. more than chain set up all in.

I wonder what was the last time you rode a bike and what that bike was. Really, any bike can tour, so take your pick. But when you said "get off the beaten path", that changes things and sort of eliminates some bikes. Consider your skills and strength. Learn from others who've gone before you.

BMW and Guzzi both made "smaller" dual sports ... but I would not really classify either as "dual sport" by modern standards as they'd both hammer you in tough conditions. You'll pay in BLOOD, SWEAT AND TEARS! doh

All part of the fun, right? :D

I really think you need to drop the fixation on shaft drive and kick start and instead listen to what others are saying.

It's never a good idea to undertake a trip of this scale without some smaller trips as a shakedown, so take a flight into Marrakech, hire a local bike and seek out some tough stuff for a week to give you an idea of what you might be facing.

Does anyone know anything about the BMW R65GS

It seems to be an R65 engine fitted into a R80G/S chassis. From what I can tell most of the R65GS were restricted to 27HP for the German market for young riders. Saying that I do believe a number of unrestricted 50hp model were produced.

If I went for one of the unrestricted 50hp models would this be a good choice? Parts for the R65 engine seem easy to come by as well as the R80 GS chassis.

Out of interest does anyone know if the R65GS ever came with a kickstart? I know the normal R65 did.


Thanks for all your comments. As for Tims suggestion I think I will fly out to Marrakech and play around for a few weeks. I don't envisage embarking on the proper trip until August next year, so have quite a bit of time.

+1

1. and don't forget to get a dose of Montezuma's revenge from a dodgy dish
2. add a few days of really bad sleep sharing a room with a mosquito- yes, it only takes one...& don't wash for awhile to enter the discomfort zone.
3. Load the bike with the weight of luggage you are proposing to take with you to get the real feel
4. Go into the 'tough stuff' on hot days...
5. now drop the bike, preferably on your shin causing some pain (but no breaks!)
6. lift the bike back up and then then try using the kick start....
7. repeat a few times....

Then tell me you're happy to travel with a big heavy shaft driven bike and I'll show you a pink porcupine who can play the saxophone :Beach:

Travel is about enjoying the trip- everything you can do to prepare for that is time well spent. Do take on board what suggestions are being offered especially from those who have been there and gained their experience on the ground. They are offering it to you so that you may have a more enjoyable trip with fewer regrets!

Caveat:
I take no responsibility whatsoever for the dangerous and daft advice in the numbered list above-:blushing: Don't do it -however it is 'food for thought'.

People are going on about the weight, but looking at the BMW R80gs paris dakar it seems relatively comparable to some of the bikes posted by mollydog. According to this website its dry weight is 160kg

BMW R80GS Paris Dakar

Plus if I went for this bike I get a kickstart and shaftdrive.

Why not go for R80gs? Do I really want something much smaller as I am a big chap myself at nearly 22 stone!

David, You can go with ANY vehicle- it is your choice.

There is a great deal of collective information centralised on this site from people who have travelled all over the world. Many have learned the hard / costly way too.
I would suggest you take the time to read about other peoples' choices and reasons for these then draw your own conclusions.

Filtering the information on the hubb should help you decide on what equipment/vehicle/etc work best in a particular environment. This knowledge should enable you to make better informed decisions and hopefully save you time or money or grief or all three!
Whatever you choose, have a fabulous trip.

p.s
Ask Tiffany about her R80 GS when she or her girlfriend had to fly back to the UK from Iran I think it was, when her bms'gearbox broke and no parts were to be had.

I looked on Tiffany's site and she describes her bike as:

"The amazing bike which has carried me and various friends around the world. I have complete faith in her to get me through or out of any situation, whether it is the horrendous mud in Ethiopia or being pursued by angry Mafia in Nicaragua"

That's a shame about the gearbox, but seems a bit extreme to have to fly home. Why not keep spare parts in your garage at home in case anything happens, then a friend can pack them for you and send DHL anywhere in the world?

I have knobblies. There is the V7 thread I started here abouts. I never saw the point of changing shocks so can't comment. It does what an airhead would do but isn't 35 years old with a weak subframe and splined shaft. Given the original spec I imagine it has the wrong 35 year old reputation too.

I'm a big fan of just picking a bike and going where you like, but the V7 doesn't meet this crazy spec. No kick start and cable clutch. There is no way you'd start a V7 by kicker, the starter motor is like something off a dump truck and can still need 15 seconds cranking.

The list of Japanese 250's would be my choice. F650's have water pumps designed by sausage eating morons who dont know the difference between bearings and lipseals and leave you stranded 7.9 KM from Erfoud on a Tuesday.

Urals have shaft drive and Kick starters:innocent: :rofl:

Andy

The one thing Bertrand left off the list was taking off the tyre to swap an inner tube when you have a puncture in 40ºC shade temperature, but there's no shade and the sun is relentlessly beating down.

Of all the characteristics I would be looking for in a bike, tubeless tyres would be number one. The fallback, which I've implemented on my Spanish bike, is mousses.

Your insistence on kickstart and shaft drive is getting anal, you clearly aren't listening, so I'm not going to comment any more on this thread. Hope you understand. :)

Hydraulic clutches are overrated imho, but a black bike will not show up the dirt as much either, if you're heading for the rough stuff (something that's very important, I believe). You could get a black Halfords shaker can to cover the white pin-stripe

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...64-BMW-R27.jpg

You'll just push up the prices for those who collect such machines and take them to the local bike shows. :innocent:
But, there are plenty of these on the road nowadays and they tend to be cheaper when purchased from Germany (partly because of the £ - euro exchange rate).


Probably not.

BMW techie section
 

There's even a sticky thread on topic that goes back to 2002 and, at one point, it jumps through 7-8 years between posts.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...vs-r100gs-7784

Then you want something properly light. In a tight situation it's the only thing that will help you, nothing else is that important. I speak as someone who has suffered on an 1100GS two up and fully loaded...

But how small can I realistically go. I am a bug guy at almost 22 stone, so what would you suggest with my size in mind?

When I say off the beaten track, for instance I would very much like to ride from Nouadhibou to choum following the railway line.

That's a serious and demanding piece of offroading. Over 250 miles of nothing but empty terrain with no support and precious little chance of rescue. I did about 50 miles and then took the train. Even when you get to Choum there's very little there and it's another 100 miles to Atar.

How much desert riding experience do you have? If you're planning to do it solo you really need to be good enough to recognise when you're getting in too deep. Getting it wrong on that piste could well be terminal.

Your weight (and size) is more likely to be an personal issue (fitness etc) than one of big guy = big bike. Many of the bikes on Mollydog's list are physically quite tall with high seat heights so they won't disappear underneath you but for the Choum piste you're really going to need a dirt optimised bike light enough that you can crawl out from underneath it when it falls on you.

If you're serious about riding terrain like this you need to be goal orientated and professional about it - look at the terrain, the difficulties you'll face and the logistical issues involved and make sure your bike, your equipment and your abilities are suitable to cope with it. Doing it the other way round - becoming fixated on certain features for example, might be ok on tarmac roads in Europe or the US but it'll come back to bite you in Africa. DHL are not going to deliver 150 miles down the track to Choum.

This thread feels a bit like pushing water uphill.:(
David re: you say you are a big lad.without getting personal this could be a 50 year old with a paunch or one with a Schwarzenegger physique! The latter would help lifting the bike but still!

Either way:
Any bike will have a Maximum Permissable Weight which is you plus anything you carry.
A friend of mine is 6'4 and built like a brick s*** house and it is almost all muscle at 134 kilos.
He travelled 2 Up with is girlfriend and their luggage on an F650 Dakar similar to mine.
That bikes' MAUW is 380 kilos so well within your needs.

On the sand route you are thinking of doing along the railway..... a really small trail bike would be essential. Alone.... would be VERY unwise.:nono:

May I suggest you reconsider your mindset? If you just want to ride in sand then take the appropriate tool which you can hire in Morocco.

BUT if your objective is to experience Africa then a long haul reliable (aka well prepared ) travelling bike is, IMHO, required.

I can only repeat what has been previously said: please READ UP onother people's experiences on their travels and think hard on what they have said. When the going gets tough, I have never heard nor read of anyone wishing they had a big bike or a kick start or a shaft driven machine.

Time for me to go fishing.

what a contradictory requirements indeed. doh

Well you're a big lad, so yeah, go for an 80GS. Otherwise a KLR650 with a better rear shock- would be like a 250 to you?

BTW, I often wish the ratio of my weight (and height and strength) to my 1100's was more in my favour :-)

Whatever you decide to use, get it reliable and have fun!

okay many thanks guys

It has given me something to mull over. I will let you all know when I have selected the right bike:thumbup1:

+1 :thumbup1:

We used our 100GS to travel from Devon to Cape Town in 1991/2. We were two up with 90 odd kg of luggage. The shaft survived only finally expiring in France on the way back. The bike really doesn't have a hydraulic clutch as my overdevelopped left forearm will contest. It also doesn't have a kickstart although one can be fitted but the bike is very easy to bump start on a solid surface.

We still have the bike which is used for regular trips and if I was to go back to Africa it would be the only choice. I also have a KTM690 which is much lighter, much more economical, much better off road etc. there's no room for the missus!

EDIT: Having now read some of the other comment I ought to mention that our gearbox survived but it is a known weakpoint, you will need to be a competent mechanic because these are old bikes with some inherent problems. The early G/S subframe was weak but can either be modified or replaced with the 100GS one which is stronger. The wheels/tyres on the GS (not G/S) are tubeless which proved to be a liability in Africa so we soon fitted tubed tyres. The GS has the paralever driveshaft which has 2 ujs which are known to fail. The G/S shaft s stronger/more reliable. Front forks on the G/S are poor. The OE rear shocks on both models are crap.

David as you are obviously obsessively worried about not being able to start your eventual choice of motorcycle, here is one solution that will 'fit' all brands.
It is also a cheaper alternative to your 'finding/fitting' a kick start; it would be to have one of those tiny portable power packs no bigger than an old Walkman. I use mine to recharge all my electronic stuff via its usb output and as a backup to start my fuel injected F650 if necessary.
It can be recharged via mains or 12volts. Having the right tool for the right job is very good for keeping blood pressure normal.:mchappy:

p.s there are a bunch of other non-electrical related things which can prevent you from starting your moto especially in Africa...!

Some nicely done R65s here- no hydraulic clutch but worth a look I reckon
Rooney Cycles | Rooney Cycle

I agree some lovely bikes there. The hydraulic clutch as standard is not a big concern as I have seen some nice custom solutions which I may do.

Plus whoever said hydraulic clutches are overrated I disagree. Anything that makes the clutch lighter is a bonus, as I had an industrial accident some years ago and now experience pain in my hands. I can live with this pain, but why make things harder for yourself if you don't have to? Plus the hydraulic clutch means easier maintenance as there is no cable stretch to deal with.

Hydraulic clutch on small cc bikes are not common. KTM dirt bikes have them ... but their Japanese competition have a LIGHTER pull on their cable clutches. :oops2:

Cable stretch is a malady left over from 60's/70's Brit and Spanish bikes. Not much of an issue on modern bikes.

My 9 year old DR650 original clutch cable is now at 65K miles ... pull is a bit heavy now (wear), but no stretch, no adjustment required. A new cable is due now but no rush. :smarts:


Comparing my V-Strom 1000 (hydraulic) vs. my cable clutch 1050 Triumph Tiger ... almost NO difference in pull effort. Some hydraulic units are better ... some not so great. Be careful what you wish for. A hydraulic clutch is just one more thing that can go wrong and one more thing to maintain.

A properly engineered and maintained cable clutch should not be high effort ... especially on a 650cc or smaller bike.

bike ??
 

JUST about my own experience . :oops2:
Point one : the weight is depending of the type of travel.
A good twin old style will be good and not expensive, easy to fix, to look after
Like an old kind of BMW ( air cooled, series 6 or more NOT 4 cylinders)
or any 500 honda, kawasaki or suz'

point two ; if the roads are not good , a trail will be better .
A XT a DR or else , old style too ( i dont like transalps too heavy or 1000 stuff like varadero, DL etc )

point three; clutch cable is easy to fix , a kick si nice BUT in trouble on dirt tracks a starter is nice ( recently tested on morocco tracks with the drz , yes , hard ones ! :palm:)

and so , no way to choose the bike first , except if you have it
choose your trip
the weight to carry , the roads/tracks to take
and then ask AND TEST SEVERAL ONES
and ,
mostly
TRAIN
good trip
:clap:
riding since 72
north cap in 74 with a stinger 125 Suz
France to Dar es Salaam in 80 on a good old times' XT
touring in tracks on morocco withe a DRZ
curving in Pyrenees with a Brutale 800