The ultimate off road tourer !!!
 

BMW build 2800 HP2's and even though these bikes have incredibly capable suspension, they are really lousy to use for touring, the 13 litre fuel tank does not get you far and the complete lack of fairing does not allow the rider the endurance to carry on riding all day long. It was also not provided with any means to carry luggage.
KTM's Adventure models were probably getting closer but the suspension was compromised to allow for a more comfortable ride height for shorter riders and to cope better with road handling at speeds in the access of 200km/h. The bike is overly complicated and even though the 950 used carbs, a fuel pump needed to be used as the bottom of the fuel tank was lower than the carbs. The same can be said for the BMW's, they are very complicated because of fuel pumps and other electronic components regulating fuel injection etc.

One small manufacturer prevailed though and they are hand-building the ultimate off road tourer based on the R80 and R100GS models from BMW. These bikes fitted with proper off road suspension on reinforced frames allow the rider ease of maintenance in the most basic workshops around the world.
Fuel supply to the carbs is good old fashioned gravity feed and when this brake down you know you are screwed real good in any case.

The following links have lots more info.

DIY your own bike, the HPN way.

YouTube - BMW GS by HPN; RIDE THE ADVENTURE

hpn

Hehe, nice point!

Yes the bikes are great, the problem is that all other bikes get boring. A few weeks ago I was riding with a guy with a new F800GS and we switched bikes - I longed back to my bike all the time. :devil2:

Edit: Maybe a longer video next time?

The ultimate off road tourer !!!
 

what are the cost of a fully new/ restore HPN . I agree the bike looks great and fun , I never had one but had and still own few BMW (K75,K100,R90,R100,R1200), I am getting organized for a RTW and the choice of bike is still very limited ( 2 up in the US).....

Doncha badmouth ma 950!
 

Yes - nice vid!

However, in order to provide a balanced view - it seems strange that you can condemn a bike as overcomplicated because it has a fuel pump when you are using shaft drive on a dirt bike! I wonder how your average basic workshop anywhere in the world would do when that went wrong? Probably the same way they would deal with tearing your bike in half to replace a worn clutch (as opposed to undoing a dozen bolts on a KTM 950)

Incidentally - the KTM 950 uses the same fuel pump as that most unreliable of bikes, the Africa Twin - they are known to need replacing every 30-40K miles, cost 100 Euro, are small and so a spare is easily transported, and can be swapped out in about 15 mins by anyone with the mechanical skills of a bi-polar monkey.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking airheads - I have ridden a few and think they are great bikes -and they undoubtably have some advantages over a KTM 950 from some riders' perspective, such as seat height, and ease of carb adjustment.

It is a shame you need to resort to tenous, criticisms of other manufacturers' bikes in order to justify your own - you didn't mention how much the HPN costs.

And while I'm on a roll, Ali Baba, I assume when you said that other bikes would be boring after riding an HPN you meant other BMW bikes. Other companies make bikes too y'know.

Well that's it - now Ive offended everybody I'll shut up.

Well actually, no I won't. Hendikaf - ultimate 2-up off road tourer available in the US? That'd be the KTM 950 Adventure!

That's a nice looking machine. Pitty about the tank though, but surely Acerbis or someone will make a bigger job. With the exhaust where it is I can see that conventional luggage wouldn't work, but there must be ways to make your own rack, especially for soft luggage.

As for the lack of fairings - I reckon it's a bonus, less to crack and break, and you don't need to remove it to fiddle with stuff. If it makes it tougher riding then you just need to harden up.:wink2:

I know that there are other brands then BMW and I’ve owned a few (check my profile). There is also a Yamaha in my garage and I might be looking for a KTM again (not road legal).

Maybe it was a bit hard to write “the problem is that all other bikes get boring” because normally I like to test other bikes, all kind of bikes. But right now I find it boring to drive them for a long time. Okay?

It’s important to understand that each bike is different and built after the buyers need.

There are loads of different tanks available, up to 43 liters + rear tank (7.5 liter).


Conventional luggage works (both hard and soft), you can get standard racks, custom built or build it yourself. Personally I have a heavy duty rack (and subframe) with stock exhaust and Jesse Luggage.

There is a variety of fairings, you can find some examples here: High resolution pics - HPN Motorradtechnik GmbH
Lots of HPN-bikes: HPN Owners Club - Fotogalerie - HPN Galerie



For me the cost is much less then a KTM990/R1200GS/HP2.

No worries - you don't have to justify yourself to me (or anyone else for theat matter). I was just responding to your comment that after riding an HPN all other bikes seem boring.

Maybe one day we will meet, and we will swap bikes, and you will confirm how boring my bike is compared to your HPN (when I first posted I didnt realise you were an HPN owner), then I will buy you a beer, you can drink yours and I will cry into mine....

...then I'll turn on the ignition, hear the reassuring tick of the fuel pump, and ride off with a smile on my face content in the knowledge that I have the perfect bike for me... which is surely what it'a all about!

Yes, that’s what it’s all about!

The fact is I can adventure tour one up on my $4500 DR650 (includes most farkles) and keep pace with any HPN ridden by a rider of equal skill. After seeing the video on the link what I see is very stodgy and unwilling partner that I would never take dirt riding.

Have you tried a HPN Mollydog?

Everything I know about HPN's I've learned from you Ali! :sailor:

Which bike?
 

Well guys, seems like we are still broaching on this subject yet again? It does get some airtime doesn't it? Maybe I can put my 50 cents worth in (inflation)!

Firstly I do own several BMW's and have owned other bikes in the past but never a KTM so I can't say much about them. At present I have 2 x R50's, 1 x R100GSPD, 1 x R100S and 2 x R1200GS. I haven't rode a HP2 but do like the look of them but too tall for my stumpy legs!

Anyway, I have just completed a 14 mth trip from Muscat, Oman to Bali, Indonesia via Yemen and East Africa, Sing, MY, Sumatra, Java etc. I used the 2004 R1200GS for this trip as I wanted to ride it home.

I would like to mention right now that this bike is marvelous on the tar and big hard surfaced roads. It has the power and weight to just sit there and thunder along. But! Take it to the soft stuff or tight stuff and you get a bike that will make you work your guts out to push it through. My main problem is the front suspension, small front wheel and mainly the weight of the thing. Another big let down is the high 1st gear! I am an ex trials rider so do ride on the pegs a lot so with this bike you are forever slipping the clutch even to get up 10% grades. I know that BMW have lowered 1st gear on the later models but they have been doing this for the last R1100, and R1150 models as well. When will they find their happy medium? When I left Oman and through Africa I did carry too much gear, around 40 kg. I finished the ride with about 20kg which is more than enough for this bike or any bike in my opinion. But that is up to each person, what they want to carry.

The bike has failed parts namely both suspensions and the alloy front wheel after I lost the front suspension. BMW changed the shocks but wouldn't send them to me and said I had to visit a BMW shop to have this done. This is kinda difficult when you in the middle of Tanzania and the closest dealer is in Nairobi and they were still killing people there during the election! So I purchased Ohlins for both ends, only 3000k for this!!! They would not even look at the rims and said that this bike is not meant for off road? I thought that was what GS meant? Anyway as you could only get this bike with these wheels in Oman I must have bought the wrong bike? An ON ROAD ONLY R1200GS!!! I did finally get new shocks for the bike in Sth Africa once I arrived there in September. I must say that the dealer here was much friendlier and more helpful then in Nairobi and Germany. Thanks to the guys at Donford BMW for all your assistance and help and the crate as well.

So once in Indonesia, this bike gets way too much attention! Every time you stop people want to touch it, sit on it, ask questions about it, ask where your going, where your from endless bloody questions! So best way to fix this is don't stop! Indonesia is a very spectacular country to see and if you speak some Bahasa it helps a lot in the out of the way places. Big problem here is that there are way too many small motorcycles on the road. 50% of them have unlicensed school kids on them so there are no rules and anything goes! Just remember, if you are in any kind of accident here don't stop, just keep riding! You will know why if you have ever been here.

So back onto the bikes, For my opinion I would not ride a 1200GS or even an 800GS again for his kind of trip. You have to remember the price of these things and therefore the cost of a carnet as well. Also Mongolia, the Stans etc don't have BMW dealers! And also remember that BMW make their money from cars and these are the high end of the market. They (BMW) don't like to have dirty, smelly travelers in their nice clean showrooms. This is why the bikes are targeted to the people who want to ride to the coffee shop on Saturday mornings etc.

I would be looking at 2 models of bike, an Africa Twin if you can get one? They weren't imported to Australia so it's hard for us there. And failing this I would ride a basic Suzuki DR650 with soft luggage on it. Fancy me saying this when I am now planning a "Round half the World" trip on a R50/3 but at least I can repair this old dear and I don't need any BMW workshops to keep me going.

Ok guys, whatever you plan to ride enjoy and watch out for the "Sepeda Motors" I had 4 hits in 2 weeks by them here!

Cheers

Ahh Dingo, never a truer word spoken. Why I am not surpised by your comments on suspension and alloy wheels? :clap:

Garry from Oz.

Then it looks like you have a lot to learn Mollydog, your list proves that (again).

Maybe a longish trip will do you good, get some fresh air instead of wasting energy on this BMW-stuff (both here and on Advrider). It’s funny when I read my first post from Django Loco I recognized you before I had finished the first line.

Happy travels!

I don't know why KTM riders feel they need to defend their noble steeds so heavily, maybe I needed to elaborate more on what I meant about the KTM's complications.
1st I must point out that I have never even taken a 950 or 990 around the block yet and have never worked on any of these bikes before.
I am just revering to what KTM riders them-self have told me; Doing basic services his a nightmare because fairings etc need to be stripped of to fit one of the oil filters, why does it need more than one.(640 Adventure) Then the biggest complaint from most KTM riders in South Africa is the time it takes to get basic repairs done. Dealerships are sparse and you sometimes can't even buy oil filters over the counter as it have to be ordered.
KTM have grown immensely in the last years since launching the 950 and I am sure this problem will get better.
As far as the pump issue is concerned; I am using it as one example to compare the differences and because I have heard of many bikes brought to a standstill on account of this. (Not every rider carry a spare pump.)

Besides all of this I would like to add that the KTM 990 is by far the most capable off road tourer of all the bikes in this class and coming straight of the factory floor!!!!

HPN is like having a Super enduro's suspension and chassis fitted with the fuel range and fairing of the 990 combining the best of both worlds in one bike fit for long distance touring where road conditions is deteriorated badly. HPN uses exactly the same forks as fitted to the 990 except the travel is 75mm more on the HPN, the wet weight of the HPN is less than the dry weight of the KTM.

The bike on the video clip can be fitted with the 43l tank and HPN adventure fairing in less than an hour. The small tank and fairing was fitted to give the bike its retro looks and currently it is used only for weekend rides and short trips.

HPN is hardly perfect but I find it to be the most adapted for my style of riding which often take me on the roads less traveled into areas where I need to do my own maintenance and repairs.
1st gear is very short, it allow you to go at a walking pace with enough revs to get up steep inclines.
Carbs is a real bonus here too as they give you much more control of idle, none of the snatchy character of riding a fuel injected bike.
In difficult off road riding the 1043cc Mahle motor let you do your riding keeping revs around the 3500rpm mark where you will find most of the torque, check the video clip again and listen to the motor.

I do not want to compare bikes here or start a mudslinging contest.
HPN for those who personally know the owners and people working at the company and know their designs and engineering philosophies will also know that when you get involved it is far more than just mechanics but you will find a certain soul that is alive in all of the work coming out of the HPN workshop. These guys are so passionate about their work and they are not driven by sales. They have more work lined up than what they can handle.
Their products are often criticized because it is based on old technology and their concepts are often missed or overlooked because they have invested no time or money in designing products that will blind their customers with flashy looks and trimmings and gadgets making it more appealing.

I have discussed HPN on so many of these threads that I thought it is about time to start a thread of its own.
HPN is not about whether you can afford it but rather if you can afford to go without it. For those that are searching for the ultimate off road riding experience, only a small handful will ever discover HPN but once you do you will find a way to make it possible.

You can start your own project for less than 10 000 Euro but if built by HPN to full specs it can cost up to 35 000 Euro and even more. 25 000 Euro can get you an amazing bike fully fitted for touring with the basic Mahle motor.
It all depend on how you want the bike done and the original condition of your donor bike.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but 35.000 Euro gets me around the world on a crap bike.

That beeing said, HPNs are sexy (at least to me), but in the decadent hobby of motorbike travel, using a fully kitted HPN probably takes the crown.

I must agree that the journey must take president over the mode of travel, I just get so much satisfaction of riding on a good suspension and chassis on really bad road conditions that it in itself becomes one of the most alluring parts of the trip experience. If your bike is only a means of getting from one country to the next then it does not really matter what you ride.

Hi Guys!

Fun with KTM's: my brother has a '03 Lc4 Adventure NICE BIKE i loved it !!

Before10TKM -the Batterie was dead(within 5 month!!)
-the engine was open 3 times (start problems)

Before 20TKM - Stearing headbearing ****ed( this bike had seen a bit of Marokko..400Km gravel)
- the engine guard fall off on the highway
The dealer said is acommon problem...after get it off ( a few times) for oil change the screws are ripped somtimes they tight it with cableties......sometimes the mecanics just forget that

finally with 24TKM the engine was close to complete ****ed! Doesn't matter just another 15ooEU!! Keep Throwing Money he still loves that bike;-)))



Friend's of mine just enjoying the breakdown;-) XTZ750 Supertenere powerfull nice bike

They know allready 4!!! Blacksmith's from 3 shorttripps to Maroc! I'am very envious on the their pictures!!!



But after all i wouldn't change my HPN against one of the other beauties!!

We left Germany in 2006 and did till now 62TKM in across Afrika and OZ and the bikes are still running well! (mine has now 160TKM on the odo with the the orginal engine)

Yeah..you're right that driveshaft is a pest...but have you ever seen a chain working for 60TKM (mine broke down with that millage) and the price was in 2003 400EU.

My chains on Streetbikes were usually done after 20TKM...


The price.....i had my R100GS worth maybe 2000EU and than i spend around 10000EU in the rebuild of MY HPN

I think the new 990 is a bit more expensive .


I love my rubbercow;-))) but there are defintly other bikes they will suit to other guys!!!!!

Greetings from OZ Werner+Claudia


p.s. have you ever seen someone searching for the sparkplug on the 990Adventure???

Great fun ,take a beer and enjoy!!!

The ultimate off road tourer !!!
 

Thanks for the price answer, to me 35000 Euro for a 400+ pound bike and 20 years old tech is a bit too much , lets face it the bike look like a dream of adventure but a 3000 Euro XR650R will go every where faster better without as much complication and in my experience of off road driving in really rough condition and pick up the bike few times a day I will go for a lighter bike anydays.

Still love the look of the HPN and appreciate driving confort of my GS

Hi Hendi!


Just to get it right :35000EU is a bike made complete out of NEW parts!!

If you own allready a GS and you get only the frame done (maybe 1100GS swingarm +WP Frontend) than we talk about 6000 EU (send the frame and get the rolling chassies back)

It is still a lot of money but in relation to a new 2cylinder Offroad bike not to bad!

Greatings from OZ Werner

When I was looking for something new a few years ago I found that the HPN-conversion was cheaper then KTM or BMW (twins) – for me.

It was quite fascinating because I had always wanted a HPN but I thought it was expensive.

But I guess it helps that I live in a country where new bikes are expensive…

So what's the problem? What's wrong with just talking about what you know and avoiding misleading people by not criticising (or praising) what you have no first-hand experience of?

Or better still... why not go and ride a 950/990, do a service on one (I'll email you a copy of my service manual if you wish), or sit in with someone who services their own? - Then you will be in a position to do a real like for like (albeit subjective) comparison which I'm sure we will all be interested to read. Who knows - you might convert a few KTM owners to HPN.

Aaaah, I liked that one! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Should have been my sig-line!

BTW: I've tested a KTM950...

Smug, self-righteous and patronising? That'll be me then.....

I see your point and I agree that quite a few people do it that way.
The idea fits to some continents, and more important to some peoples mind.

IMHO this idea works best if you can travel with what the locals do and you travel places where there are parts (and maybe knowledge) available.
If you want to go some places where the locals don’t ride motorbikes, or there are no locals at all you have a problem. If you want 500 km fuelrange you have a problem and so on.
But if you want to go from town to and help never is far away it might be a good option.


Okay, let’s say I want to go to Australia, and buy a bike. To buy and sell the bike I have to extend the trip with one week (at least) in both ends.
A friend of mine shipped his bike to Australia for 1000€, if I work hard one of the two weeks I can ship my bike, pay for the carnet and still have one more week for traveling.



Yes this idea fits if you travel in crowded areas, walking 300kms in the desert is not my style.

Or you could spend $2,800 on a used Kawasaki KLR-650, add soft bags or hard bags for under $1,000 more and about $500 worth of crash protectors, swap out the balancer adjustment lever, and ride around the world. Dirt-simple 1980's technology, gravity fed carb, can be repaired with a big hammer, duct tape, and baling wire, pretty much indestructible once armored up.

There is no need to spend $20,000 on the "ultimate" off road tourer when there's plenty of used cheap bikes that can be beefed up to do the same job, whether we're talking about KLR's, DR's, or whatever. I've taken a KLR with full touring load into places where, once I got there, I looked back down at the way I'd need to go to get back home and said "oh ****, how the **** did I do that? And how am I going to get back out of here?". I did not need two cylinders and all the weight, cost, and complexity of shaft drive to do this.

There are all sorts of options - you could do this or that - depends on your budget, time and many other things but this thread is about the ultimate off road tourer.

In my opinion the KTM adv. is the off the peg solution but I would still rate an airhead G/S with HPN improvements above the KTM. The airhead may be old technology which means it has proven reliability, no unnecessary complexities and good spares back up (in most countries or by mail order). The suspension can be made close to ideal for your own needs, shaft drive is not a complication but a maintenance free bonus, although I think the paralever arrangement is not necessary. I have a monolever and paralever and apart from a slight rise at the rear when pulling away on the R80, I can't really tell the difference on the open road or off road. HPN improvements have all been tested over many years in arduous conditions so you're not travelling on a prototype. For me, using HPN and other tried and tested parts and building the bike up yourself means that you the know the bike well which is a real bonus when travelling.

With regard to airfreighting, the bike I drop the fork legs out and take the back wheel and suspension off which reduces the Volumetric weight to about half and only takes an hour at either end. I've done this Athens to Nairobi and Johanasburg to Frankfurt and it was very straightforward and cheap on both trips

You have obviously never owned a shaft driven bike and you must replace your chains and sprockets every 4000km due to lack of maintenance. On top of that you must have been very lacky never to get a flat tyre on the back wheel.

One good reason for owning a shaft driven bike is that it is far less complicated, no maintenance required on newer models and a 150ml oil change every 15000km on the older mono lever models. In dusty conditions you need to lube your chain nearly every 250km if you want it to last and you need too keep up with the wear so you can keep on adjusting it as it wears otherwise the wear rate will increase rapidly. Then fixing a flat getting the back wheel of and back on having to hold on to greasy chains!! thanks that's not for me. The major drawback of shafts are this 1-Extra weight of the shaft and final drive add to the unsprung weight of the swing-arm reducing the suspension performance under tough of road conditions.
2-When they fail, swing-arms and final-drive casings are also damaged adding to the cost.
Km for km drive-shafts is still cheaper than chains & sprockets even if they fail at every 50 000km which is more the exception than the rule.
The R80-100GS's fitted with the first paralever suspension were the 1st models where BMW experienced real problems with premature shaft failures.
The problems were mostly taken care of with the introduction of the 1100GS.
HPN only use the mono swing-arm(simplest and most reliable) and the 1100 or 1150 swing-arms and drive-shafts for their modifications.

Are you sure about this?

The bike in this video feels and handle like a 250 scrambler but has the acceleration of a 1200GS. YouTube - BMW GS by HPN; RIDE THE ADVENTURE

The bloke riding it is myself and I am a bit of a wimp so do not let the speed in the video clip fool you, I was going real slow.

The XR650R is a great bike but for touring it might be difficult to go to the outback and beyond without luggage.

I think I would much rather travel on a train or in a car or even by foot hiking if the only reason for my trip was to get to some foreign country.

The pleasure of riding a bike that is intended to deal with tough road conditions is immense and choosing a route you would normally not go down because you are not sure if you or your transport will make it through and then discovering the most incredible places still kept hidden from the harsh influence of tourism.

I guess there are two types of bike travelers, - the 1st group like the idea of going to rough places but will end up following the known routes and going to all the popular places frequented by tourists and other travelers.
The second group is much smaller and they are mostly made up of guys that want to go discover something new, they want to go down a path not because they know of the incredible places they will find on the other side but because they just don't know what they are going to find. These are the guys that want to escape from civilization and just disappear into the blackness of the uncivilised part of this planet still covering the biggest portion of its landmass. They don't care how tough it is going to be and they sometimes are not even concerned if they will make it through as long as they are busy doing it.

The ultimate off road tourer !!!
 

I was comparing to the video , the Bemmer didn't have any luggage either, now as per my experience I prefer to be stuck in mudd in Laos Cambodia or in deep sand in Sahara with a soft luggage equipped XR650R than on the BMW, I think the HPN looks great but I have not tried them I have own many bikes and travel on many continents and lighter is better off road , now on HWY that is different but the HPN is not fitted for thateither . I think what made the reputation of BMW was more by the commitement to travel ( by the owners) versus it's use on some terrain or even reliablibilty. I found myself always pretty much wishing for lighter bike off road and to respond to the comment about speed I think that the HPN will be faster on good terrain ( maybe ) but go to see the Baja 1000 or some other type of rally, or do some ride on single track in Colorado and they are pretty much nowhere to be found.

Just what I think , nothing presonnal??

I like that...but the point of the journey is as unique to the individual as the individual is unique to others. So travel wherever or however...but f-ing travel...exploring is a good thing.

The point about weight is valid, at least when you are stuck in mud, as long as you can keep moving I find it okay.
This is maybe one of the most important differences between a standard GS and a HPN, with the HPN you generally use on gear higher when it gets rough. The key is to keep moving.


I live 3300 km from Africa (my favorite destination) so from time to time I cover a lot of highway-kms. Normally I drive 250 km (150km/h) before I take a short brake and I fill petrol every 500km. It’s not exactly fun but I can easily cover the 3300km in three days (even in bad weather). Yes you can find faster bikes for the highway but IMHO the limiting factors are the tires. I run T63/MT21.
With a standard R80GS I did 200 km (125 km/h) and filled petrol each 400 kms so it’s not that much different. This is not the reason (for me) to do a conversion.
A trip like this is often around 12kkm and not much maintenance is required, I only top up the oil, clean the airfilter and tighten a few bolts.

Sadly there are no rallies around here for twins. A few years ago it looked like there would be a “king-Enduro”-class but now it’s all gone.
It’s not even possible to start in the Dakar Rally with a large twin anymore. I think that’s a shame…

With the XR650 I was not referring to the means of carrying the luggage but rather the ability. The bike is a beast when you ride it on your own with nothing on but once loaded the suspension clearly does not handle the extra weight but most importantly the bikes handling especially of road is destroyed. Being a heavier bike the BMW's can handle the extra weight of luggage very comfortably and although the handling is also badly influenced by the extra weight of luggage it is not nearly as obvious when riding a smaller single.

The bike in the pictures was not fitted with the large tank and pannier racks because I wanted it to have a clean look and retro styling. Currently I do only weekend trips with soft luggage but with the first big trip I will fit the large tank and pannier frames, no modification needed for this.

Two-up touring (incl tent, sleepingbags, pots and pans):

http://www.actiontouring.com/pic/lugmode.jpg

Thanks Ali, I don't know why it is so difficult for other riders to see how versatile these bikes is. All I need is to order the tank, fairing and luggage frames, have it painted and spend one hour on the bike and it will look almost exactly the same.

I love the Rally sport swing-arm. I have send HPN a R80GS frame and are still contemplating if I should have them fit the 1150GS Swing-arm and keep the same ride height as the original GS fitted with the damping inserts into the Marzocchi forks, or to have the frame made into the Rally Sport version.

For those that think HPN is expensive look at this offering from the somewhere out of the USA from a group of guys with absolutely no real experience in bike building except the two bikes they have built being shown in the website.

Untitled Document

I do not want to discredit their efforts though, these bikes really look like they can be very good for the task at hand. I just don't think they are better than HPN and the price is outrageous.

The ultimate off road tourer !!!
 

Now that is not fair ALIBABA, I am organising myself for a RTW 2 up and still look for which bike to take and you post this kind of pictures? not fair at all for someone looking for a 2 up high clearance basic engine with little electronic and enough power bike .

I use the inserts on a standard Kalahari with an Øhlins shock. (imported from ZA via Moz and Netherlands). It’s a great upgrade!
The inserts and an 1150 swingarm will work better much better then this setup, esp combined with a strengthened frame. Rideheight will be more or less the same.

The Rally sport swingarm is expensive but it is a work of art. Combined with a good fork it’s a pleasure to ride.

There is one at mobile.de - mobile.de right now. Nice expensive engine (80hp) but not sure if it’s the right engine for RTW.
http://i2.ebayimg.com/01/m/000/9c/90/608d_19.JPG

I'm a great fan of the BMW airhead G/S, GS and the HPN models and improvements - I wouldn't consider anything else for a long off road trip. I also agree that the right bike is not too expensive compared to the only alternative (in the same capacity range) which is the KTM adv.. Yes there are larger fuel tanks available for the HP2 but there would still be a lot of other preparation/expense including a complete new rear subframe and seat if you were travelling two up.

But I take the original post in the way I think it was intended and we are talking about the 'ultimate' off road tourer here, there is simply no comparison with KLRs and XRs. Having the ultimate bike for your adventure is not everyone's goal - there's a lot on here and elsewhere about minimilist touring and for some people the aim of their trip is to get a less than worthy bike to unbelievable places or travel with a small fuel capacity and see what adventures result - brings back memories of the missing fuel stations in Namibia.

This site is an incredible resource for anyone planning a long trip on a bike but I also think you can have too much information and too many choices and variables. At the end of the day you have to decide whether it's about the trip or the bike, make your own choices and get on with it.

Peoples opinions might differ but as I see it you should collect all the information and knowledge you can get and use it to make the right (for you) decisions. If you manage this and at the same time are impulsive and able to dream you will have a long and happy life.
This goes for choosing the right bike, partner and most other things in life.


I can’t see any reason why I can’t have a great trip on great bike, it works for me.

No reason at all, but you can also have a great trip on a rubbish bike!

Yes absolute! In my student days I had an old cheap Kawa Z500 and it was crap but it was used for a lot of great trips. Loads of fun!

Changing springs is not so easy but when you do it is exactly were your great handling XR650 will become a dog.
The reason for the XR being so great at what it does is because the suspension is set up to deal with the weight of the bike and rider and nothing else. When you change the suspension to deal with more weight on the bike the handling go out the back door.
Adding the same weight on the XR will have a much bigger influence on its handling than a heavier bike like the BMW for instance. The XR is only a winning recipe if you stay over in hotels and carry the most basic items with you keeping the total weight to less than 15kg's
The BMW is also able to not just carry 45kg, but can carry almost it's own weight.
This mean that an average rider weighing 85kg can add a 100kg worth of fuel and luggage to his bike if needed.

Modern chains are essentially maintenance free and a good one will last 20,000 miles, including off road use, more on a twin.
Patrick :Beach:
80f temps here today![/QUOTE]

The Suzuki DR600 I owned was only fitted with the best O-ring chains I could buy and with no or little maintenance I would get about 5000 to 6000km. When I started to use expensive synthetic chain lube I could increase the mileage to 10 000km. This riding mostly on dirt.

I can see that the weight of a shaft system is discussed again.

Do you want to know the exact weight? Check here: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...20-post16.html


Once again Mollydog, chains are not available world wide. They often have to be shipped and the weight is the same as a new shaft…

That’s hard word for someone who have never seen or tested a HPN-frame. Do you mean that we should take it seriously?

Interesting one this as someone who has owned and travelled using a ktm 950 (74000kms worth of travelling) and now ownes and uses R80gs part converted and ongoing project HPN.
Firstly for solo riding the idea of a very large powerful travel bike does not really make sense more so if a lot of off road stuff is to be done so if you only need something small fine. A lot of my travelling is done two up - so I can easily justify larger machine. Next It does not matter what you ride if your happy with it.
My experience with the KTM are very positive it was overall very reliable, superb at speed, excellent two up loaded up and capable on dirt but it was complicated and expensive to maintain. Service was overly complicated in comparison to other bikes,Basic parts are very difficult to get when outside of the EU. It went through three chains and sprockets in the time I had it (about the cost of one shaft drive replacement), The white power forks needed a rebuild after a failure at 15000 kms the rear shock was rebuilt twice with oil leak problems, The clutch was replaced twice and due replacement when it was sold - the clutch basket also needed replaced (the cost of the clutch basket and clutch parts was more than a complete replacement gearbox for the bmw.) Also the clutches do burn out and fail often under hard use - Very inconvienient when in the back of no where.
But I still rate it very high as a superb machine.
The R80gs (half faired) /HPN project has been kept at standard height as it suits it for what I want, it has a 1000cc conversion, large 43 ltr tank, HPN marzocchi forks inserts, Wilbers rear shock, upgraded electrics,Billet 6 pot front brake and HPN rear drum upgrade, I am waiting for a slot to get the frame rebuilt and strengthened. The total cost of this work and buying the bike is so far way below the cost of 990 ktm. The bmw is slower, but much more comfortable far easier to ride with lower power and better torque than the ktm, very good handling, more economic and better on fuel, very very simple to work on and so far now over 72000 kms very reliable. (I had to fix an oil loss problem now sorted and need to rebuild the cylinder heads - new valves and twin plug them -next week part of the ongoing work. Eventually a high torque cam,.altered gearbox ratios etc - Is all this needed for a travel bike - no but its also an ongoing project/hobby. It also makes a very nice overlander. And still cheaper so far than buying a new bike. Its also a lot more satisfying on a personal basis.
What do I prefer - for ease of the mechanics and unique custom build, comfort, better fuel and better overlander the HPN wins, If I wanted to have a mad day out and short overlanding trips or touring in western world the ktm takes the hat but both are superb in different ways and its really down to what floats yer boat.

The terms travel or adventure bike both imply lots of road miles which is why, in my opinion, only twins with a capacity of 800cc plus are the most suitable bikes. Travelling or touring off road usually means unpaved roads rather than totally off piste rally raid type of riding. As ever, there has to be some compromise and as far as I can see there is nothing that will compete with an HPN airhead or KTM adv. for the combination of road and off road travel. Neither of these are going to compete with an Exc off road but neither is an XR or KLR and I know which I'd prefer for a 500km road trip.

Again in my opinion, the HPN is the better choice of the two potential 'ultimates' but this is because I value simplicity, maintainabilty and the satisfaction of doing a trip on a bike you've built yourself over going to the shop and buying one

Well in my opinion a stock Africa Twin can compete in every condition with a HPN and be better. I had one, been twice in the Tunisian desert, did a lot of training off road, take 4 trips on road two up, then resel it in excelent condition. It never failed a bit, it was 8 years old when I bought it and it was cheap. My cousin have a GS100, stock. In my opinion it is not eaven possible to compare the two of them. The AT has better comfort on road, better handling offroad, better suspension (and on an AT is not good), better brakes, big tank, and it is very reabile with 12000Km interval for oil change, withought oil consumption. I was driving the GS100, found it bad. It is 40years old technology. The forks and brakes are a joke. It is a relict. It's an old BMW. That is it.

The ultimate twin tourer in MY opinion could be an Africa twin.

But as it was mentioned before, for an long off road adventure trip, I just cant see the point of tweaking an old heavy BMW, while there are a lot of KLR's, DR's and similar stuff, cheap and realible.

This is my opinion.

And another thing, my cousins GS100 is the most unreliable bike on earth. He changed heads, pistons, shaft drive, gear box, he is and addicted BMW. The bike left him numeruous times on the road on short sunday trips, but he is still throwing money in it.

I am not discussing BMW bikes.
This thread is about HPN.

These are two very different things. When completed the cost of BMW parts is less than 10% of the total cost of new parts and less than 10% of the original parts are used without modifications with probably less than one third of the total parts being used from the original donor bike.

HPN does not handle like a BMW and does not feel in any way even similar.

To try and compare HPN and Honda is to compare Fiat and Ferrari.
One is mass produced in Japan, huh Italy, where as the other is hand built in small numbers to a very select clientele.

In other words the HPN is over engineered and over priced? 5 standard BMW's and a support truck, dumping each one as it broke would do a pretty much any trip. Sorry to be a Troll, but this thread is heading for one acceptable answer to the people who like HPN and can't see how anyone else wouldn't validate their choice.

Sorry, I just don't agree. You don't need an 800cc twin, just travel slower. You don't need WP shocks or a laser cut bash plate or a 70 litre tank, just plan your ride to match what you have. HPN may work for you and your style of riding, but I'll take an Enfield or XT600 or C90 or Ural as my ultimate thank you very much as these simply match how I ride.

Why not the HPN? I'd be scared of someone pinching it and simply don't see the need for the whole it'll cruise 90 and still do mud routine. Also, have you tried it in snow? A Ural will beat it hands down.

I'll never buy a Ferrari either BTW. Unreliable, can't do speed bumps and no where to put your shopping.

The HPN is a nice bike I'm sure, but the ultimate? I think that's down to each riders choice and will always be so.

Andy

I don’t know about you but I don’t need anyone to validate my choices.


My bike has none of the items you listed, is it not a real HPN then :crying:

I would not say the question is what you need, it’s more what you like.

Yes I have tried it in snow, I have also tried Ural in snow:
http://www.actiontouring.com/pic/uralsnow.jpg

But it was maybe one of these you were thinking about?
http://www.actiontouring.com/pic/ural2wd.jpg

I find the Ural pretty interesting (I took part in building the one in the upper picture). Personally I would find it interesting to do a longish trip on one.



It’s hard to say what’s ultimate, how is the ultimate girlfriend?
People have different preferences; preferences also seem to change over time. I have built a bike which is ultimate for me, and I rebuild it when my preferences change.
It would have been boring if everyone had used the same bike.

Italy is full of hand made exotic motorcycles with hitech hand made parts, but they are just being perfectly clean and driven from one caffe to another. They are not beeing seen on the road with lagguage. So, a ferrari is shurely no good to go on a long off road trip. When you came to the desert, you see local peple and turistic guides driving primary mass produced Toyotas and Mitsubishi off road vehicles.

But we can discuss the Fiat and Ferrari thing further. IN terms of suspension, the HPN is shurely ahead of the Honda, but only when it comes to performance, not when it comes to reliability. A stabdard damper rod fork is better when it comes to realibility than the modern cartridge fork. I'm talking with my experience. I have a motorcycle with WP suspension. And when you come to cartridge forks is it well known that Kayaba or Showa are better than any WP. SO, in suspension terms you don't have a Ferrari, eaven if we are talking purely performance.
When we came to the machine, I don't know how can you compare that secondworld war machine eaven if it is tweeked to a ferrari? The Honda AT V machine is for these days totaly outdated, but in comparison to the BMW HPN is hitech. And once the machine is tweaked, goodbye reliability.

When we came to chasis, it may be reinforced, that is ok, but wou will never get the geometry and riding possition of a KTM out of the BMW. Try to drive off road a 950ADV or 640ADV and you will see what I am talking about.

I was very happy with the AT performance on road and off road, considering the price and how outdated the model is. But I sell it and bought an eaven cheaper and lighter singel, which have better offroad performance and it is good enought to drive 120Km/h on road, which is for my driving condition fast enough.

And if we talk about tweaked motorcycles, just google a littel and see the tweaked Africa Twins and then compare to the HPN.


At the end, I have nothing against the HPN, I woul like to see you and the bike, I would like to drive it to see the diference against the GS100, and so on. It is yust not right to rate it as an ultimate off road tourer.

With HPN you choose the fork you like, if you prefer Showa you fit Showa. It’s all up to you, and that’s the main reason to build a bike. You build what you like. If you would like a damper rod fork then you install it.

Why do you mean a damper rod fork is more reliable then a cartridge fork? Just curios..

One think is that damper rod forks are more simple, have less mooving parts and is easy to work on them. I service them by myself. The cartridge forks on my KTM are to complicate for me and I need special tools to thear them apart.

Another think is that from all my damper rod forks I had, none had a failure, specialy on the AT they were abused and bottomed out numeruous times.
On the other way on my light KTM cartridge forks did 60hours and then oil leak and servicing.

But there is no comparision in performance, cartridge forks are way better. So, for a sunday hard enduro ride, I defenitely choose my hi-tech KTM, which need a lot of my servicing attetion to be in shape, for a longer offroad trip, then I would choose my bigger jap bike, much more reliable, much less fun off road.

I can’t see problem with moving parts in the fork.
I have only worked with Marchocci cartridges and they are easier to work on then the rod-type. (Same fork different internals).

I should have serviced my WP4860 but I haven’t done it yet. If I understand the manual correct you don’t need any special tools for servicing the fork. (Disassemble, clean, change bearings, dustcover, seals, new oil++). The fork has been used for 30kkm.
If you want to remove the axle-clamp you might need a special tool but I can’t see why it’s necessary to remove it. There is also a special tool to insert the new seal but you don’t need it.

WP has had it problems with seals (esp late 1990) and there are multiple reasons for that, as far as I know it has nothing to do with the use of cartridges.
There are a few simple tricks to make the seal last longer (and to improve the suspension).
Generally seals on an USD-fork has a harder life then ordinary forks so I was a bit afraid to install an USD-fork, so far it hasn’t been any problems.

The engine from CX500 might "fit", but who wants to downgrade?

I can see you still have some problems to differ between HPN, BMW and gossip Mollydog.
It looks like you get “better” response on Advrider so why don’t keep it there? The thread about the G450X was typical.. The guys on Thumpertalk didn’t care much about your writing, maybe a better nick will help, using only numbers are a bit boring.

I’m not sure if it’s fascinating or scary that someone uses time to write BS about bikes he hasn’t seen (or tested) on at least three different forums.

Old design maybe but the fact that HPN are continuing to develop the airhead GS says a lot about the basic soundness of the original design. Yes it's race winning days maybe behind it, but as a built for purpose adventure/travel bike it is still a very hard act to follow.

Everyone has their own preferences and we all try to justify our choices. Possibly the biggest advanatage of modern Japanese bikes is that when you've worn one out you can just buy another, it serves a purpose for a short time and suits our modern day view where everything is disposable, whereas with a modified bike if it doesn't do something well enough you look into ways of improving it.

In short, Mollydog, you're missing the point or don't have the same meaning for the word 'ultimate' as I do

Beating the mag wheel of a Vstrom into shape and we were not even off road yet!!

If you go back and read the thread properly you will see that after skidding off the tar the front wheel dug into the dirt and then the bike was thrown through the air for a distance of 10 yards. The impact of the fall was enough to flatten a pannier box filled with luggage and broke nearly 80% of the spokes on the back wheel. The holes in the ground where the bike landed was also a clear indication that the impact with the ground was quite severe and most other bikes in this case would have been a complete right off.

You are really touching on something sublime and underlying here. One of the big reasons why I love HPN's dedication is because they have found a way to recycle bikes that still keep them current and useful in our modern lifestyle.
Yes they are not fitted with catalytic converters and fuel injections systems making them more environmentally friendly but then most GS owners here in South Africa where environmental laws are non existent remove the cats in any case.
What better way of recycling a vehicle than to rebuild it.

The airhead boxer motor have been the pinnacle of technology, it is the simplest motor using the smallest number of parts needed in a 2 cylinder.
In a sound motor you need it to be balanced which it does automatically because the weight of one piston and con rod cancel the other, it needs one intake and one exhaust valve per cylinder, it needs one cam that will regulate the opening of intake and exhaust valves. All extra technologies added did not increase the engines reliability but rather contributed to its complication and all this only to add more performance to already very powerful machines.

The old boxers have no limits :D
Systems for fuelinjection are available (not from HPN):
http://www.silent-hektik.com/Boxer_7.jpg

I can tell someone better learn how to straighten a wheel! :rofl: Step One:
Take wheel off bike! Trust me, Vstrom cast wheels are very strong!
I can post dents in mine from Baja. I rocks I hit would have also dented any dirt bike wheel. I was just going too fast (70 mph plus).

http://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/ph...72_SN6eh-L.jpg
F800 Wheel. Nice to have a BMW mechanic on your ride! Hope he knows how to fix wheels better than the guy with the big hammer! :rofl:

http://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/ph...74_5fEp7-L.jpg
Bad day for a GS rider! :rofl:

So you have found a picture from Advrider, downloaded it to your smugmug-account and posted it here, clever! In my country that's against the law.
ADVrider - View Single Post - BMW GS Trophy in Tunisia

Ultimate off road....
 

I found a bit sad that one post start a pile of insult or war of the word ( mine is better than yours), the fact is HPN looks great and certainly fullfil the need of the ones who buy them, I can't say that I trust my GS but its still a very good bike, which bike will be for my next trip ?? no one knows yet. I always enjoyed the site but sometime "we" do get carry away, lets bring constructive comments to the post. HPN for arround the world trip ( if you can pay for the carnet why not ) I just whish that we had some other brand to compare it against, not too many people are doing prototype bike for off road travel.

It might differ how they calculate the vehicles value in the Carnet, I pay the deposit for a “R80GS 1996 model”, it doesn’t matter if it’s rebuild or not. It’s about 1/6-th price compared with a new 1200GSA.

Yes, and I’m one of them you can blame. I’m sorry but is p*sses me off when people without knowledge about the HPN pretends to know everything and mix it up with other bikes and faulty statements.
I have no problem understanding that people don’t like the bike because they think it’s ugly, expensive, or heavier then a DRZ400. But why all the other crap?

On the other hand I think there is a lot of good information in this thread, and it hasn’t gone as far off-topic as I thought it would.

Buying a carnet is another reason to own HPN. If you used an 80 something G/S as the donor bike you will only need to declare the estimated value of a 80 something G/S, about 1500 Euro will do I guess. Nobody in South Africa inspects the vehicle to see how many modifications have been done and what the real value of all this will be and I am sure it does not get done any where else.

Don't get so upset!! look at it this way that this thread started of a week ago and with all this bickering the thread have been kept on top of the list for almost the entire time racking up over 1700 views in that time.

It does not matter how much some members try to discredit BMW or HPN because the more they try the more they are focusing attention to the subject and for the guy out their looking for the ultimate, he will be able to see through all the BS and if HPN does make sense to him he might still be lucky to get in the long que of guys waiting their turn for HPN to create some real magic for them.

I heard this and actually bought a new K100 in 1988 partly to see what all the fuss was about. Proved to be a very reliable commuter and tourer covering 64000 miles in 2 years but the fact that I couldn't fault find it myself was one of the reasons I reverted to the boxer engined bike and also probably why there was a lot of encouragement from BMWs customers to keep the boxer format. I've also had an oilhead GS but it was so heavy, that to me misses the point (for a GS - fine for an RT). The airhead engine is still good and the low tech and easy access is ideal for what we're talking about here. The engineering is sound which is why there are many companies out there still making improved parts 12 years after the last one was made by BMW. PS. I've updated my profile and I'm only a newbie here!

Which is why it is so difficult to get the right spare part for most models because they change the design all the time.

Every step forward seems to be accompanied by a step backwards. BMW are as bad at this as the rest of them. HPNs approach is to modernise things that need to be modernised rather than changes for changes sake.


I agree regarding the F800GS, feels a bit odd on the road but that is probably just me. Too much electronics to qualify as a long distance off roader (in my opinion) and what is this thing with the master cylinder reservoir floating around in mid air looking fragile - everyone seems to be doing that these days.

I'd still pick the DL650 Wee Strom. Buy a used one, put a grand into it and go. It's just that simple. :funmeteryes:

No worries, Ali. You can't be blamed for anything here: you made your points clearly and politely. The problem is that when "the other crap" is just pure bias, then there's nothing more you can do. Django Loco (trans. Daft Django) likes to stir the pot, and the HUBB is all the livelier for it.

This thread has atracted almost 2000 views in less than two weeks, must be some sort of record I'd say!

Thanks for the link to that thread on the Wild Dogs forum mollydog, maybe others reading it won't just pick out the juicy bits but will read the entire story and see that the accident had nothing to do with the bike but rather the combination of overloading, soft suspension, high speed and most importantly a Michelin Desert front wheel that is known to cause stability problems at high speeds. Even though I was not aware of the dangers associated with the Desert front tyre when used not only on tar but on any hard compact surfaces at high speed I did recommend the use of more road bias tyres for the first leg of the trip and I recommended to Philip to keep his maximum speed less than 130km/h.

They will also read that the bike was assembled again after the accident and that there have been another mayor accident involving a truck in Tanzania and that later the bike had a catastrophic drive shaft failure when still in Tanzania and that at the moment the bike is being shipped back to me because the clutch, fork seals and subsequently front brakes have been destroyed.
I know mollydog will have a field day with this but I don't care much what he says and I think nobody else takes his righting serous, in fact I think most readers skip over the posts he has made because they know they are just waisting time to read it.


I especially don't care much what others might make of this as I know that Philip does not takes things easy on this bike or any of the half dozen in is garage back in the UK. I was told that crossing Angola you need 5 days traveling dawn to dusk to make it through while Philip entered Angola from Namibia on the 6 of December 2007, with not a word from him for 6 days, he finally reappeared in the Caprivi back in Namibia on the 12 of December. 200km from the norther border of Angola he was told by local Portuguese that he will be shot in the DRC if he continue to travel through on his own and decided to rather turn around and find an alternative route. 6 days south to north and then all the way back with one day being lost in the desert only managing about 40 or so kilometers, he must have been flying through there.

Philip is very hard on his equipment as his profession does not allow him months or years to travel through Africa.


PS: I am not finished adding all the info on the Wild Dogs forum so keep checking it for the second part of Philip's attempt to get through Africa at the speed of light.

Electronics
 

Gentlemen Please .....

I'm with Molly dog on the electronics. Once they work they keep working. I think the Tenere could do exactly what a remanufactured BM could do at a third of the cost and without hassle from vacuum carbs and other old technology?

Are the R80GS's still running points? I very much doubt it although they are the simplest, easiest to fix option. Electronic ignition arrived in the 60's, matured in the 70's and has now been standard for 20 years. No complaints that you can't open the black box and see the problem? No, because something else fails first.

FI arrived in the 80's matured in the 90's and should now be 100%. I had hassle with an R1100R a few years back. The FI electronics were not the issue, it was bad wiring. That should be sorted now. Same thing when I used to work on trucks, 80's and 90's ABS/EBS/EPS/ECAS and the like were all let down by wiring designed for the 1950's and technicians who wouldn't unplug when they welded. Now I'd rather face a 2007 Mercedes with a lap top than try and work out what the heck is going on with a 1970's Foden with nothing but a multimeter and gauges.

I guess it's what you are comfortable with.

Acetylene lamps anyone? You can use them to weld and they work fine when the battery is dead :rofl:

Andy

Prices might differ but I paid the same for my rebuild as the price is for a new Tenere.

As I see it the Tenere is one of the best bikes for overlanding, and I’m sure most people will rather buy a Tenere then a HPN. But still there are issues like:

-Only 10-15 kg lighter then a HPN
-Lack of power and torque
-Short range
-Not suited for two up
-Short suspension travel

But the Tenere can get you to the same places, you just have to take it easier on the rough stuff and carry some additional fuel.
Loads of people don’t drive much 2-up, they don’t rate good suspension and they are happy with limited range. Then the Tenere is an excellent choice! It’s also possible to modify the Tenere to fit some of your needs.



There have never been a R65/R80/R100GS which have used points. They all have a hall-based system.
But you can get what you like… Some people have rebuild it to points, some people leave it as it is, some people use programmable systems with or without a TPS, some people run dual plugs.
You can keep your stock system (or points) and install a new digital system. If the digital system fails you switch back to stock (or points) in a few minutes.
In fact you can have three independent ignitionsystems mounted at the same time (the original (or point), crankshaft-mounted and flywheel-mounted.)

That’s the way it should be, people should be able to decide what system that fit their needs.

It would be nice if we could just stick to talking about bikes...

Same can be said of electronic ignition. Tried and tested plus loads of secondhand spares available so you can carry the necessary with as replacements. I was really referring to the Can bus which just seems like a complicated way of replacing some wire. ABS brakes are another unnecessary complication.

Electronics used in the right places are a good thing (replacing moving parts like cotact breakers, advance wights and carb floats).

Guys
Do me a favour, and IMHO most people on this forum: leave the personal insults and handbag swinging out of it. I've deleted a couple of posts here because of the personal insults. If you don't like each other, fine: swap emails or phone numbers, or even more manly, why not meet up in person to discuss your personal differences.

Talk about bikes, excellent, even criticise each others views or how you think the other person came about them (eg picture allegedly copied from another website), but leave out the personal insults.

Your humble, ever obedient servant,
Chris, the Beemer lover :mchappy:

Now CAN bus I totally agree with. When a truck is 20m long, has two brake systems, an engine, a gearbox, an air con system, sat nav, tracker, 2 suspension modules, a load control unit, the dashboard and whatever else they choose to fit you can save a lot of wire. 50kg of extra load or fuel saved will sell the truck over its competitors. On a 2m bike with lights and an engine it does seem rather silly. The advantage there is to the bike maker who can check for blow lamps end of line with a computer link rather than a physical inspection, plus they buy less copper and can copy software from their car divisions. A CAN bike should be cheaper :confused1:

ABS I don't quite agree with. If it fails, so what, you have the same brakes you did on a non-ABS bike (take the red bulb out if it annoys you). If its working on a wet commute it does saves lives. Before anyone repeats the garbage about stopping longer, you don't. I know, I designed systems, but thats a discussion for elsewhere. For a dedicated off road or race bike I can see why you'd remove it, but for most riders it does more good than harm. It can have off road uses but they are yet to be really exploited on a bike. I think the R1200GS has a type of ASR? To go further you need EBS, which on a bike means the sort of power system the K1200LT had/has. That can ruin your day when it fails, so probably is for road use only. In time they'll no doubt spread, but I want to see the military use EBS before I'd say it was ready for all uses. On bikes, best guess is this will be in about 2020.

Andy

HPN in Namibia
YouTube - Moments in Namibia.m4v

HPN and soft sand
YouTube - Macasar Loop.mov