Rtw
 

This is great entertainment and keeps me awake during night shift !!!

I agree with Walter, it`s all a matter of which continent your are riding. Toby has a good point about older bikes, but we are talking of the brandnew G 650 GS.

Our experiences are: My girlfriend is tall (183cm) but can`t handle heavy bikes, so we started downsizing from

DR 800 BIG -> F 650 GS Dakar -> KLR 650 -> KTM 690

The DR BIG is a pretty good bike, simple and easy to repair (220kg)

The Dakar(193kg) was a pain in the ass, poor quality and lots of expensive repairs (engine broken twice), last quote in SaltLakeCity was about $4000.- so we bought the KLR brandnew (2008) for $5000.- doh

The KLR 650 (175kg) had no issuses, uses little oil and did the job in North- and Southamerica (25000 miles)

The KTM 690 (150kg) is much more powerful, the suspension is amazing, the quality looks very good and so far no problems (10000km) and I feel confident for our Transafrica Trip :funmeteryes:


Andrea says, the lesser the bikes weight the easier it´s for her to handle off tarmac :thumbup1: and believe me, it`s easier for you when your girlfriend has no problems :innocent:

In the past I rode some Japanese bikes (1, 2, 4 Cylinder) and had no real problems, then I bought a BMW R 1150 GS (2000) and it consumed almost 1 liter of oil every 1000km, so about 60-70 liter extra oil the time I owned it :( and that is german high price engineering :thumbdown:

For me, BMW has a poor quality and there are a lot of problems with the new generations, the new G 650 GS has to prove if it`s worth the money to buy it .... but I`m not the Betatester

btw, the new F800GS has the same quality problem .... many breakdowns !

I know, nothing is perfect and everything will last only a certain time

For me, the perfect bike would be:

weight and offroad capability from a KTM 690, the gas consumption and comfortable seat from a BMW 650, the engine from a Honda (TA or AT) and the price from a China bike :D hahahaha


Happy trails and ride the world
Thomas

All those places have a starbucks.


I'm getting the feeling you're not committed enough.

Aha - committment, now there's a topic to be discuuseed in the Bar!

I am getting p*ssed off with having to log in every time I want to post, perhaps lacking committment:(

Suspension
 

Ive just read this post through and whilst I don't know much about the BMW 650 singles I have been on the receiving end of crap BMW OEM suspension.

There seems to be some confusion here: Good suspension on an enduro/rallye bike means it works well in terms of the bikes handling but will be made of lightweight materials. Only top class riders will reap the benefits of top notch suspension. For the rest of us reliability is probably more important but the suspensions basic ability to be adjusted to suit varying loads is also a factor. I don't thing anyone apart from KTM produce a bike with good suspension and even KTM are dumming down using the WP name but the spec. is less good on the 690 than on the EXCs it does, however, seem to be quite robust. I had a WP rear shock on my GS in Africa which worked OK but did start to leak after 25000 miles.

My approach is that if you are not an off road ace you should fit a robust rebuildable rear shock from a reputable maker. The front forks on most bikes can be repaired at the roadside unless bent. If you want top notch off road performance then you will have to spend a lot more money to fit good quality forks and rear shock (avoiding the racing specialists) and set it correctly for the load you are carrying.

+1

+100

Wise words :clap:

Certainly what's true is that there's nothing 'out of the box' that is suitable for adventure touring with a reasonable fuel capacity. The Tenere XT660Z is 70% there but the engine is really crude.

On my last trip to Morocco my son-in-law was riding a rented F650GS and we swapped bikes for a while. After the F650GS he loved the comfort of the Tenere with its tall rally screen. What I noticed was the way the F650GS engine was so tractable after the narrow useful rev band of the Tenere which won't pull under 3000 revs.

I recently rode the F800GS and the G650GS back-to-back. In addition to the Tenere I also have an F650GS twin so the F800GS wasn't much different, however the G650GS brought a smile to my face, it's a lovely fun bike. If BMW brought out a 'Tenerised' version of the G650GS it could be a brilliant bike.

What I'd really like is for one of the major manufacturers to bring out a proper overland adventure bike with 500-800cc engine, quality strong long-travel suspension, fuel capacity of at least 15 litres (and preferable 20 litres), tall rally cockpit/screen, comfortable seat, decent footpegs, large side stand foot, sump and engine protection designed with the bike, and so forth.

Lots of other ideas could be incorporated such as a secure document stash, permanent space for first aid kit and proper tool set/inner tubes, permanently wired in electric tyre pump.

OK, it might be a lowish production run, but if it was based on an existing bike (Tenere with a decent engine, or F800GS with better suspension, cockpit/screen and seat) the development costs would be fairly low.

Is the Tenere's suspension robust, even if it's not very good and can the rear shock be dismantled and repaired without a whole lot of special tools? There is also the persistent cush drive issues.

I think it may be that the genuine overland adventure traveller is more discerning than the average bike buyer simply because of the durability issues - everything's given a hard time for a long time. Maybe this combined with the fact it's a small market sector puts the manufacturers off. I don't think there's ever a bike been made than hasn't been seriously slagged off by travellers on forums and elsewhere.

I would suggest most overlanders would like to see a fuel capacity around 30 litres (maybe split between front and rear tanks) and acessories that add weight should probably be left to the aftermarket suppliers or options lists.

I agree that there are bikes available (in the 600/800 size) which would form a good starting point for a manufacturer to produce a good adventure overland bike with minimal development but the ceiling sales price is limited by the engine capacity. It would be hard to sell a adventurized 650 for the same as a basic 990 or 1200 model and as we all seem to be agreed the market sector is too small.

No idea about the rear suspension, if it breaks I guess I will find out, but the bike had 1200 miles on the clock when I set out for Morocco in mid 2009 and 23000 miles when it returned this year (I had flown home a few times in the meantime). An awful lot of the milage was offroad, but much of the time I was riding with full luggage, so I was riding fairly gently, looking after the bike.

Cush drive rubbers are consumables so do wear out; one way to slow this down is to stuff the area with rubber strips taken off an old inner tube. I haven't bothered with that, and replaced the cush drive rubbers at 21000 miles purely because I'd bought some replacements and had the rear wheel off at the time. There was still quite a bit of life left in the old ones.

Having had a BMW 1200GS Adventure with its massive tank I now think 30+ litre tanks are crazy. Riding gently I can get 550km out of the Tenere's 22-litre fuel tank, and 450km from the 17.5 litre tank on the F650GS twin (BMW says the tank is 16 litres but you can stuff much more in).

A friend joined me at one stage in Morocco riding a BMW G650 xCountry (similar small 9.5-litre tank as the xChallenge) and my Tenere acted as a fuel bowser, we syphoned fuel off mid piste to extend the xCountry's range. Sub 10-litre tanks are clearly not large enough.

In a direct comparison with a R1150GS Adventure on a trip to Poland, the F650GS consistently drank €18 of fuel for every €30 consumed by the bigger bike. So whilst bigger capacity bikes might need a huge tank, smaller ones don't.

___________________

Going back to my comments on adventure bikes, what I find difficult to accept is that owners have to pay reasonable money for a bike with so-so components, then need to do the research to determine what components should be used instead and have to pay for the parts (and labour) to replace the original components. The other problem is the discussion with the insurance company when they ask whether there's been any modifications!

What needs to be repaired on the forks?

There is absolutely no reason for BM to still fit damper rod forks on a bike supposable designed for off road.

You forgot to mention decent ground clearance and a wet weight of 180kg (or 160 but I'm attempting to be realistic here). :thumbup1:

Ergo, it seems to me that EMPYTHETANK was actually looking for a subjective opinions based on personal experience, so it seems to me that Colebatch's interpretation and answer was certainly right. At least, it is exactly what I would expect if I were asking.

Sooo, since I have zero experience on GS (and many other things) doh, I quote a post in "Travellers seeking travellers", underlining their recent experience with two NEW bikes.

Spain to Turkey and Return July-Sept 2011

Thus, having little experience myself, I leave more espace for experienced riders willing to answer Emptythetank's question :D:welcome::D (instead of getting into neverending pointless discussions, please).:funmeterno:

I think before anyone takes you seriously at all JTW ... its worth pointing out what kind of opinionated, offensive guy you are. I am not sure how this ties in with your quote above re keeping it positive. Perhaps you can tell us?

I ran across this on another forum, posted by you under your other name "ARMA" .... (warning, there might be a few HUBB readers who are offended by the rather heavily opinionated nature of this quote from JTW000)

"The Tiger is another example of adventure bikes going in the wrong direction. This is a poorly conceived machine designed by a company with an inept attitude to building motorcycles and a history of misplaced blind emulation of other brands.

The figures of the engine show that it's ideally suited to the owner who will use it occasionally for bragging runs to the coffee shop at weekends and will never see the rain. Of course, that's the target market now. "

Right ... now here comes the bit I love the most. :helpsmilie:

"Real adventure riders don't buy expensive new bikes on credit, we buy proven, simple, useful machines from second hand adverts and spend months preparing them by stripping off anything with "made in china" written on it. "

Thats classic ... long may it be remembered here on the HUBB

But at least now we know what "real adventure riders" do.

Thats a real benefit to us all.

Having slagged off Aprilias, Triumphs, new bike buyers, people who improve their forks, etc etc I notice there are similar rants by you about KTMs, about Japanese bikes ...

Basically anyone who doesnt have an X-Country or an G650GS or who doesnt modify their bike the way you do is scum, right?

POST DELETE

Hi JTW
Feel free to criticise somebody's opinion (ideally with supporting evidence: it makes it more credible), but please don't make personal insults just because you don't like their opinion.

Many thanks,
Chris