Small heavy/light bikes
 

I have the idea to go small.
Small not only in terms of cubic.
But in size and weight

But .... what has happened to the weight ??

I was loooking at a Suzuki DL 250

DL 250: 178 kg !!
GN 250: 129 kg
GSX 250: 154 kg

178 kg for a 250 cc bike !!
My old Kawasaki 350 from 1973: 151 kg.

(Moto Guzzi 850 -72: 211kg
Moto Guzzi 850 -20: 229 kg)
And...
I do not want a competion enduro bike with seat hight of 900 mm, 11 liters fuel tank and oil change every 3000 km.

The larger street bikes have lost a lot of weight over the years.
Compare a GSX 1100 for 1980 with a GSX-R 1100 from 1990 or newer.
254 kg => 197 kg (A large part due to enginee weigth)


So what bike has this

Weight: max 155 kg
Seat hight: Max 830 mm
Front wheel size: 19 or 21"
Fuel tank: Min 15 liters
Price: Low
Availible: As EU model

Should be any problem to build a 350 cc bike like that

I might go back to an 80-ies bike. Restore and modify.
I would be cheap. And after restoring it myself. I would thrust it.
And modification could be done instead of buy all those options for a new bike ?

Thats my idea.
What are yours ?

I have considered rebuilding an older, lighter bike and taking it on a trip and think it is not a bad idea, my R80G/S was something of a 25 year old mess when I bought that and after a rebuild has been a reliable travelling bike albeit bigger than you have in mind.
Something aircooled along the lines of a Suzuki DR350 or Yamaha XT350 would be a good place to start and you should be able to pick up such useful modifications as an Acerbis tank, aftermarket bash plate if one is needed and a modern, rebuildable shock absorber.
Your choice of bike could also be affect by spares availability, if it looks like one make or model has more back up than another it could be the one to go for.

My idea is that you want to spend as little money as possible, but you want a manufacturer to invest in building this bike for you. :)

Anyway, the answer is CRF250L. 145kg. Modify the tank if it's not enough (but I bet it's enough in the real world - carry a rotopax for anxiety).

Old vs new
 

R80 GS : 186 kg
F850 GS : 229 kg

Development in the wrong direction.


Suzuki DR 650 SE: 162 kg
That would be a good candidate for med. Even if it isn't "small"
But never imported to where I live due to not EU complient.

Youre totally right about the Suzuki DL/V-Strom 250, 178 kilos is waay beyond acceptable for a 250 cc bike. Very disappointing it is...

Anyhow - in stock form there are not many models that will fit your criterias.
The CCM 450 ADV will probably fit your wishes but its not sold anymore and I dont know about the second hand market and I dont know about reliability and spare parts availability.

The KTM LC4 400, also made as an sturdy army model. (There are threads on this forum about this bike, just use the search function) Of course not many avaialble for the moment and reliability and spare parts I dont know about.

KTM 640 ADV - maybe a tad heavier than your wish and not made for many years but there are still some around.

Suzuki Dr650 - an ancient relic and not available in Europe since around year 2000 due to emission restrictions. But readily available in most other part of the world. Its actually a great bike but will need some upgrades. Dry weight below 150 kilos but will need bigger gas tank, suspension upgrades, windscreen etc etc

All the current 250 dual sports of Honda, Kawasaki and Yamaha will fit your need except they will need bigger gas tanks. Which I belive isnt too much of a problem to get a hold of.

Edit - forgot the Suzuki DRZ 400. It should fit your whishes except the gas tank size, which I guess you can find an aftermarket solution for.

The new CRF250 is supposed to have a bigger tank. I'm expecting 11.2 litres rather than 19, but it helps.

The weight is partly self inflicted (by the motorcycle community in general) and partly because the world cannot support 7 Billion people driving Ford Edsels.

ABS because we want to be safer in mass traffic. There isn't space for everyone to have enough stopping distance on cable operated drums.
Catastrophic perverters because we don't want St. Greta whining at us.
Masses of bodywork because we want to look like we are doing the Dakar
Electronics because rider modes, LCD displays and adjustable suspension sell.
Simple materials that are light and effective are banned because we want to use ten times the amount and they kill fish even in 1970's volumes.
Bikes are cheaper than ever because they are designed for manufacturer and rarely used extreme performance not everyday use.
We demand ever bigger numbers on the spec sheet.

I am currently restoring a 1973 CL350. It is superior in so many ways to my CB500X. The basic shape is everything I could want in a bike.

I would love Honda to make a modern one but know a physically small bike will be slated on ADV-rider, MCN and other clown sites. I would love MASH or one of the other Chinese front companies to sort themselves out on quality, but the market is too small for £6000 400cc bikes.

Andy

Yes, but would you purchase it with your own money, new from a dealer?

There are things people "know" and things that actually happen. "Clown sites" seem to love the 390 Adventure and the CB500X to death.

I change my modern bike every three years at most, so buying a Scrambler style CB300 type thing would make more sense than another CB500X or CRF250 or BMW310 or Himalayan or other offerings that failed to tick as many boxes back in April.

I'd actually want to pay more if they'd save me the hassle of replacing ****y OE tyres etc. but that definitely won't happen. They still don't see why a rider with 30 years riding experience and no huge limitations on funding won't buy an Africa Twin. You'd assume plenty do.

The CB500X is a nice enough bike, it does exactly what my F650 did 25 years ago with fewer break downs. In terms of current offerings I think its the best all-rounder. In terms of innovation it does what a rebadged Italian learner bike did in 1995!

Andy

I'm sure your dealer will happily take your money to let you take delivery on a bike with different tires. ;)

They absolutely do. Anecdotally - last year in my moto marshal team, the most popular bike by far was an R1200GS. Now all those people have switched to Africa Twins (and some prior V-Strom 1000 and NC750X owners too).

ADV-rider is a "clown site"? Uh oh, I better stop going there to read the epic ride reports... :blushing:

ADV-rider a clown site !!! - now hang on a minute :rofl: They've got the best girl on an old motorcycle section I've ever seen. :scooter: Pity Grant doesn't have one here. :rolleyes2:

Is Gunz-gunz-gunz-and moar gunz still going?

Andy

My short list
 

I am down to a short list.
For a bike, not to be used for going around the world.
But for going to interesting places. Beyond the tarmac roads.
Where my touring bike is to heavy and clumsy.

This is my preference. Based on what I am going to use the bike for.
And what I already have in the garage.

Enfield Honda Yamaha
Himalaya NX 250 XT 350

Weight Dry/Wet (kg) 182/191 118/133 120/???
Seat Height (mm) 800 820 855
Fuel Capacity 15 9 12
Front Wheel (Inches) 21 19 21
Rear Wheel (Inches) 17 16 18
Ground Clear (mm) 220 250 275
Power (hp) 24 25 31
Torque (Nm) 32 24 29

Himalayan is a bit heavy, but has a low center of gravity.
So I find it easy to handle anyhow.

Honda has the lowest fuel capacity.
Can be upgrade. Or live with that restricition. Some spare fuel can be carried.

Yamaha is little too high. But I asume that I could lower it 25 mm, without any problem.

If I find a Yamaha XT350 or Honda NX250 in decent condition, close to where I live. I will go for that.

Else, I will go for the Himalayan.

==

Going even smaller. Honda Brazil produces nice bikes, like the Cargo.
And Indian bikes....
But in Europe we get what the market asks for.
And what the regulations decide.

I would also consider a Yamaha Serrow or Honda CRF230 (not 250) if you can find one.

You need to go to CS&M for the real fireworks.

you have all missed the best................. Yamaha wr 250r:scooter:

Not sure about where you live but, here in the UK, the NX has non-regular tyre sizes so not easy to find and more expensive than standard when you do.

It’s a great bike though, light with a super smooth engine. Very small, which is a plus for some but the reason I sold.
bier

Wr250r
 

930 mm seat height.
Useless

Too tall, I suspect.

Here you go: mototehnika.ee - Kawasaki KX 250 XC Enduro

2021 Kawasaki KX 250 XC. Street-legal. 21" front, 18" rear. 109 kg with a tank of fuel.

People who have been complaining about no lightweight adventure bikes - put your money where your mouth is. ;)

6 litre fuel tank and launch control: 2 essentials for a good adventure bike LOL

To be fair at 109kg fuelled up and probably 104kg empty it isn’t going to be a hard push to the next fuel stop.

I've got an idea, take out the engine and 6 kg of petrol, fit alternative power, say a, leg driven crank and.....:thumbup1::rofl:

I looked at this last winter and eventually bought a CB500X. Comments would be:

Off road weight matters but so does seat height. I'm developing a theory 1kg and 1mm of seat height each cause the same loss of performance.

Tyre choice is more critical still. The CB500X on the horrible OE tyres was a nightmare on K60's its a survivor on muddy/stoney lanes.

The "cruise at 60" plan hard to quantify. I used to cruise my 500 Bullet at 70, it made noises that only the howling from mechanically sympathetic pensioners at the REOC could drown out. The CB500x will cruise at 80 but the aerodynamics and increased fuel consumption negate the distance covered. The CB500F will cruise at 90 all day. I'd want to know owners miles per day not spec sheet mph.

I think I'd have been equally happy with the Himalayan. The CRF is too tall for me.

Andy

CRF
 

Seat higth 875 mm.
OK for having fun in the woods.
But I would not travel on that,

Bike building is expensive, even if you do it yourself, plus then it’s time consuming too.
Lowered CRF250l would be my choice or one of the last Serrows.
I think Honda have a bigger footprint around the world for spares (except, possibly, Africa where Yamaha are very popular due to Dakar success - so I’ve read somewhere) either of these, nearly new, would last for tens of thousands of miles without needing repairs - both are well proven.

It’s certainly a nice place to be, planning a trip and trying to decide what bike. I’m at that stage myself, although the trip will not be till 2023. My conundrum slightly differs to yours in that I’m tall and need a big bike but don’t want weight.

Happy planning bier

wr250 r
 

Far from useless .................. as long as you can get one foot down. thats all you need ! I have seen so so many people at bike shows etc ,saying i carnt get both feet flat on the floor its a joke !
:scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter::scoo ter::scooter:

No, probably not useless if you've got 34"+ (or the equivalent in metric) legs - which I guess you have if you're not finding that height causing issues. I, much to my annoyance, don't and bitter experience has taught me that while sliding around on the seat and getting one foot down is fine short term, on a long trip you eventually come to hate the bike with a vengeance. You develop a fear of getting on the bike and start looking for kerbs, bricks, stones etc to stop next to. The memory of trying to get back onto a fully laden bike parked on a particular off camber rain and oil covered forecourt stays with me to this day.

Bottom line - I'll ride high seat stuff if I 'have' to (and I still have two bikes with 900mm+ seat heights) but short legs and high seats do not make comfortable travelling companions.

It’s not a joke - it’s their life. Not everyone is a skilled rider that has the confidence or skill to ride a tall bike. That doesn’t mean that they don’t have the right to ride a motorcycle and it certainly doesn’t make them an object of laughter.
I find gentle encouragement with any aspect in life is a great thing to give and receive.
bier

Honda NX 400
 

In other parts of the world, small bikes are popular.
Roads are worse, traffic is heavier...

People want something small, robust, easy to maintain.....
And that creats a market. And local production.
In Europe, you need to have a big bike to be a man.
And there is no market for small bikes.

(Myself, I have spent most of my life on GSX1100 and GSX-R1100. And my touring bike is a GTR 1400.
So I am no exception)

HD Sportster 900/120 0cc is a moped for girls.
Yamaha 535 something a beginer can use for a short time.
A 750-800 cc bike in general (GS 750, VN 800...) are also entry model.
To learn driving and get your license before you get a "real" bike.

But we will see if things change. The major companies are launching 300 cc "Adventyre bikes"

Honda in Brazil produces several interesting bikes.
E.g The Cargo.
The "Pizza delivery bike" that "Old Man" drove from Mexico to Ushaia and than to New York.( 125 cc verdion)
https://www.honda.com.br/motos/cg-160-cargo

And since I live in Portugal now, I have found one of them here.
Due to the relation Brazil- Portugal.
It is the Honda NX4, NX400, Falcon.
It was sold in Brasil, some other SA countries and Portugal !
Produced from 1999-2008.
(And a newer version 2012-2014)

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Falcon_NX4

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...NX4_Falcon.jpg

It ticks almost all boxes in my wish list.
https://www.motonline.com.br/guia-de...da/nx-4-falcon

Good used ones are for sale around 2 500 Euro.

https://www.olx.pt/anuncio/honda-nx-...tml#31103e59a3

When/if this period of "state of emergency" and restictions in movement ends. I will try to get my hands on one of these.

isnt the falcon based on the old xr400 engine ?

Small bikes are popular in Europe too - 5 out of the top 10 selling bikes in Europe are below 300cc.
Bikers criticising bikers, once again, does our small sub section of society no good.
Yes I’m on a mission :mchappy::thumbup1:bier

Statistics
 

Yes,
there are some contries where 50 and 125 cc bikes are common.

Do you have a reference ?

But not in nothern parts of Europe.

Statististics from Sweden

1 BMW R 1200 GS/GSA
2 Yamaha MT-09
3 Yamaha MT-07
4 Kawasaki Z800/e
5 Kawasaki Vulcan S
6 Honda CRF 1000
7 Kawasaki ER-6N
8 Triumph Tiger 800/XC/XCA
9 KTM 350 EXC-F
10 Yamaha FJR 1300

Top 10 best-selling motorcycles - Motorcycle News

Actually it was an old reference I found - this latest one shows 4 in the top 10 under 300cc now, although one of the 6 is a 500 scooter.
I guess in Northern Europe the weather is not conducive for commuting on a 2 wheeler so motorcycling is a for fun - hence the desire for larger capacity bikes.
I don’t think it’s anything to do with being a man, it’s just practicalities. My wife has a large motorcycle and she’s definitely not a man, we just go on long camping holidays.

Summary from Youtube
 

Good overview of models.

And problems with enduro bikes
- Hard seat
- High seat
- Small fuel tank
- Low oil volume
- Short interval between services
- Large need for modifications


Only problem with DR 650 is that is not imported to Europe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsorI76PBYc

A month ago I picked up a 2020 Suzuki Vstrom 250 (DL250) for my wife but also for some fun on the trails similar to what I understand you are chasing.

It fits the bill for me well. It may seem heavy on paper but I don’t feel the weight at all.

(I do normally ride a GSA though LOL).

Can you test ride one? Hire maybe?

Suzuki DL
 

That is where I started.
The weight of DL 250.
Yes, I have tested it.
I have used a DL 650 XT alot.
DL 250 is more or less a DL 650 with a 250 engine.
The only reason to buy one is if you do not have license for a 650 bike.

This about that weight does not matter and that you do not feel it.
Well,a s long as you are driving on tarmac, that is correct.
Even for a 300 kg bike.
But as soon as you need to handle it on any other way, you feel it.
I have tried all the range, from 125 kg to 300 kg.
And it mattes a lot.

A 150 kg Honda 400 cc is my choice.
For discovering Portugal. Using gravel and back roads.

The NX4 is a great bike for South America. I have a 2003 model, still going strong.



Sent from my SM-A307G using Tapatalk

The DL650 is 220kg wet.

The DL250 is 179kg wet.

That’s a 41kg weight difference.

The 250 is not a 650 with a smaller engine.


(Edited: wrote DL650 twice)

“A 150 kg Honda 400 cc is my choice.
For discovering Portugal. Using gravel and back roads.“

I am a little confused here. Are you riding formed dirt roads or ‘off road’ like enduro riding? Places four wheel drives don’t go?

Are you having to pick the bike up - is that the weight issue?

When reading through threads about smaller bike, am nearly always surprised that the Kawasaki Super Sherpa rarely rates a mention despite the fact it would beat most others eg Serow hands down?

The Super Sherpa didn't sell all that many, so most folks are not familiar with it. I have read of them, but I don't believe I've ever seen one in the flesh.

Everyone I know that has owned one has loved them but they didn’t sell in big numbers - it seems to me that Kawasaki spend a fraction, on their marketing, of Honda and a lot less than Yamaha.

Super Sherpa: 128kg (280 lbs), air cooled, 6 speed, 830mm seat height (32.7 inches), durable motor. Low seat height makes it super easy to handle on the roughest of goat paths. Suspension could be better for riding faster on rougher roads, but it's not designed to be a race bike. Recreation riders failed to respond to a dirt bike that was not race marketed, thus its fate. For the short inseam rider, it's one of only a couple small motor choices available.

Bikes not availible
 

The Kawasaki Super Sherpa (KL250G USA, KL250H in Japan, Canada, Australia, Greece and the United Kingdom) is a dual-sport motorcycle produced by Kawasaki. It has a 249 cc DOHC four-valve air/oil cooled four-stroke single-cylinder engine.

=
What a pitty. Looks lika another excelent bike that was not sold in Europe. With UK andd Greece as exemptions.


Same with Yamaha XT 250. Excellent bike. Japan, US and I think UK. That is all.

Why UK. Maybe due to some rules they had/have for 250 bikes. I know from the old days that 250 cc was very popular in UK, due to rules. When we had 350 cc of same type. Honda CB, Yamaha RD, Kawasaki S1/S2...

Nice to see some love for the good old Sherpa, loved mine and now son has one.

Engine
 

Huw much of those 41 kg wredue to a smalller engine (and fuel tank)?
What is left for a lighter chassie ?

Hi Erik

I have no idea sadly.

Weight is the result of convenience. Here are three bikes that start off somewhat similar but their weight goes up with convenience;

1. 2019 Honda CRF250L

144kg kerb weight, 6sp, 7.9l fuel, 18.2kw, 875mm seat height, single cylinder.
Conveniences: zero
Off road: Awesome
On road: No wind protection, minimal range, bag on the seat for luggage, single cylinder vibes.

2. 2019 Honda CRF250 Rally

157kg, 6sp, 10.1l fuel, 18.2kw, 895mm seat height, single cylinder.
Conveniences: Medium sized Fairing and screen
Off road: Awesome - just 13kg heavier than the L
On road: Some wind protection, bit better range, bag on the seat for luggage, single cylinder vibes.

3. 2019 Suzuki DL250 / Vstrom250

178kg kerb weight, 6sp, 15l fuel, 18.5kw, 790mm seat height, twin cylinder.
Conveniences: Large Fairing and Windscreen. Low seat height. Rear luggage rack. Frame and mounts for side luggage. 12v socket. ABS.
Off road: Okay.
On road: Good wind protection, luggage ready, 480km touring fuel range, smooth twin cylinder, ABS for safety.

The choice is up to you, but To quote Ace Rothstein "All right, I'm gonna give you a choice. You can either have the money and the hammer or you can walk out of here. You can't have both."

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/94fdded...d-215f9c89f96e

If you are going enduro riding close to home the CRF250L is the obvious choice.

If you are going exploring further from home and will be riding on formed roads to get there the CRF250 Rally makes good sense.

If you are going adventure riding long distances, need luggage, using formed roads in various degrees of disrepair then the Vstrom makes sense.

None of these bikes are designed 'wrong'. The weight is the direct result of convenience. Pick your level of convenience, pick your bike. The money and the hammer.

Or maybe the new Rally with 300 cc engine (286 to be specific)?

A few kilos lighter, a bit more power and torque and 2,7 liter more fuel capacity. It should now go 400 kms easily on a tank if not riding with open throttle...

beta 4.0
 

I have been looking at a 2019 Beta 4.0 ALP demo No kms to speak of
It is basically a enduro ,Heinz 57 model of parts that make it go
Ill bet you can find parts from every small manufacture out there
Suzuki 350 Attachment 24736 $ 5300 Canadian For sale in Colombia Beak not included

Old school
 

If you read earlier.
I had made my choice.

Honda NX 4

Spec:
https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/mo...da_nx4_02.html


2 300 Euro got me a bike with very low milage, that is mechanically almost in condition as new. After some minor fixes.
The cost included a new tension unit for the cam chain, new set of chain and sprockest, oil and filters, new clutch plates.

It has some cosmetic issus like
- lacquering on platic parts bleached by the sun
- Some surface rost at some points.
But some spray and elbow grease can fix that. If wanted.


I will soon have to invest in a set of tires. But standard dimension with 21 and 17" . No issue.

I will be perfect for me.
First 1 000 kms already done.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Vp...-no?authuser=0



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sw...-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zZ...-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Te...-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mF...-no?authuser=0

Congratulations with a new bike!

I really didnt know this model was available in the EU. Can you tell more about that?

I only ever saw that model in south-America.

I bought myself the simplest and relatively old motorcycle on the market, which cost about five hundred dollars. I decided on such a purchase to make a super steel horse out of it, with the best tuning and various cool things. I started with the simplest, namely, I installed a lot of color changing light bulb on it and it looked just perfect. My bike was glowing like a Christmas tree as I drove along the road and everyone was looking at me. I attracted so much attention and was glad of it. This was the first stage in tuning my motorcycle, then I'm going to carry out electronics for the radio and speakers so that I can listen to loud music while riding. This idea is very cool, but how do you like it?

I have just bought a 2nd hand MASH 650 x ride which looks like an XT500 but uses a Honda Dominator 644cc engine but now fuel injected (50mpg easy but 12litre tank) and only 500 mile on the clock for just over £3500 which I intend doing NC500 in scotland and later this year the marakesh loop.