Scooter for the Dempster: Which Small Scooter for Gravel and Maybe Mud.
 

My daughter has fond childhood memories of family sea kayak trips along the coast of British Columbia and for the last couple of decades she's been agitating for a follow up adventure of some sort. So lately we've been ruminating about riding the Dempster Highway next summer on small displacement (say 50 - 150cc) motor scooters. For those not familiar with this route, the Dempster is a true wilderness road which runs for 740 km. (460 miles) each way through the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories. Not a huge distance in the grand scheme of things but it is unpaved and can present challenges in terms of loose gravel and the potential to become a muddy, rutted mess in the rain. It's analogous to the Dalton in Alaska, although the Dalton is partly paved.


This is not meant to be a practical trip so we're not interested in using small dual purpose motorcycles and don't care about speed. It's intended as a quirky project which might also help raise some money for a very worthy charity. And my daughter is short and has never ridden any two wheeled vehicle larger than a bicycle, so I want to maximize the chance of it being more of a lark for her than an ordeal.


We wouldn't try to ride them to the Yukon but would transport them to Dawson City and start the ride from there.


So, what scoots to choose? In a world of endless choice, no doubt the Honda C90 which has done it all, everywhere. Unfortunately, they just don't exist around here. The available choices are:


1) Geriatric Honda Passports - essentially C90s with 70 cc. motors.
2) New or newish Taiwanese large wheeled scooters.
3) A couple of small wheeled Japanese models that some people seem to take off pavement.


The Honda Passports for sale all date from the early 80s. I'm no mechanic and as robust a reputation as they may have, I think that the chance of two geezer motorbikes not having at least one breakdown (in the middle of nowhere) is not that great. There are some Honda Trail 90s for sale but these are all 60s and 70s vintage machines.


Although they are virtually not seen here, a day's worth of travelling from Vancouver could acquire a couple of new Sym Symbas, essentially 100 cc. Honda Cub clones, a model that has some major travel accomplishment to its credit. The Symbas need shifting but have automatic clutches. And locally, less expensive, fully automatic Kymco Agility 50cc and People S150 cc models can be had. Both have 16 inch wheels (compared to 17 inchers for the Symbas) and somewhat wider tires). I've not found evidence of any off pavement accomplishments for these.


Finally, the small wheel, fat tire stuff. The conventional wisdom seems to be that big wheels and skinny tires are best for dirt or gravel surfaces. Yet the web has ample examples of people carousing around in the dirt on a 50cc Honda Ruckus or a 50 cc or 125 cc Yamaha BWS (aka Zuma I think). And then there's the extraordinary story of the Vespas that finished the Paris Dakar back in 1981 or thereabouts (ridden by extraordinary people no doubt).


Any comments concerning this important analysis received with thanks.


Norm

Good to see you're maintaining a good sense of humor Norm! :welcome:
(you'll need it! :rofl:)

We bike guys may not be the best source for info but there are a few small bike experts about here on HUBB.

I rode Honda 50's & 90's as a kid. Unbreakable. The Trail 90's are expensive but really good from what I can tell. But it's more motorcycle than scooter ... and it'll go anywhere and comes standard with knobby tires. Find a pair and rebuild the top ends, you'll do fine. Go through the electrics if older ones. You can pack them up heavy and they are geared LOW. Good travel bikes. Strong. :thumbup1:

Knobby tires will be important for both gravel and especially MUD. If you go scooter, I'd go big wheel 150cc (one with knobby tires available). Mud will be next to impossible without knobs. (and tough with them! ... but it's a "Lark", right?) :mchappy:

So have fun! It may take a while but I'm betting you'll make it if weather isn't too miserable.

Kymco (Taiwan) make a good product, if you go that way. MUCH better than most mainland China stuff.

Can't add much of use but I like your plan :thumbup1:

Have you lived with any of these machines before long enough to know what breaks, what the real world range is, what tools you'll need etc? I think familiar is good.

Andy

Like you say, it is just a few hundred miles; I would consider just about any 125cc over that distance, given that there are no time pressures/limits.

Somewhere back in here is a ride report for a young lass who took a 125cc Suzuki van van around Europe (I mention the Cyl capacity because there is also a 250cc version of that bike I believe).
Chunky tyres and reliable from all accounts.

ps
There is another ride report some where in here from a few years ago about a pair of USA-based Symba (spelling??) scoots going around the world,

Re your 50-150cc options - in practice there is a huge difference between a 50cc bike / scooter and a 150cc one. If the Dempster is rough like you say there will be times when a 50cc bike won't actually move under its own power and you'll have to push (or carry) it. Once you get over 100cc that's much less likely to happen (I've towed a VW Beetle down the autobahn with a 100cc bike) and up around 150cc your biggest problems are likely to be connected to excess speed and weight.

If there's likely to be much mud then personally I'd give the small wheel stuff a miss but it wouldn't be that big an issue on dry dirt / gravel - as long as your speeds are low.

If your daughter has limited experience then top of my priority list would be light weight. No matter what the technical advantages of big vs small wheels or any of the other alternatives the trip won't last long if she falls off and injures herself and that's much more likely to happen on a heavier bike. I'd take less weight over more power every time on a trip like yours.

I've never been a great fan of small bike auto transmissions and particularly the Honda style auto clutch / manual shift type. They've always seemed a bit fragile to me and although I've never managed to break one it's always seemed like it was only a matter of time. The Honda ones have chucked me off a few times though through "misuse" of the gear lever :(. If you go auto make sure you know how the transmission comes apart and what's likely to need replacing.

Other than that it sounds like a great trip. Just don't overload the bikes.

Thanks for all the comments. Rumination will continue.

two words about small rides and 'geriatric Honda passports'

Ed Marsh...

enjoy :thumbup1:

I´d probably go with the Symba as it is the lightest option at 209 lbs. But then it is a bit of a trade-off with the automatic CVT of the People 150 which will be WAY easier to ride for a novice (but at 249 lbs weight).

Also the Symba is 1" lower in seat height than the People 150.

If seat height and weight were of no concern, I would go with the People 150.

As much as I am a sucker for 50cc´s I would not go with one.

Why not let your daughter decide, both the Symba and People 150 are really nice rides. In the end it boils down to liking a bike. That´s an emotion and we all know that girls might have different emotions as us guys many times.

:thumbup1:
Spot on!

Independent of the choice of bike, I can give one advice to anybody planning to to the Dempster: set up camp and let the road dry, in case you catch heavy rain!

I did the Dempster in 2013 on a KLR 650 with reasonable tires. It started raining exactly when I reached Inuvik and didn't stop for two days. That second day was hell: the road gets slippy like wet soap or ice on some sections, were clay has been used as a surface material! Trucks will leave really deep tire tracks - once you are in, you will not get out again - or crash. And the mud gets stuck on everything that touches it, inches thick!

The southern part is better, but the northern half is really bad when it gets wet!

Thanks for the comments.


As for the potential road conditions, I'm quite mindful of how devilish the Dempster and some other northern roads can be when seriously wet. One rainy summer a friend and I decided to take a crack at it on a F650 GS and a KLX250s. In Whitehorse we met a Polish KLR rider who had turned around part way up. He whipped out his Ipad and showed us a picture of his rear wheel nearly up to the axle in mud.


We did a bit of a reconnaissance, confirmed that it just wasn't our year for the Dempster and headed north into Alaska instead. The Top of the World Highway turned out to be a mudfest of its own but, fortunately, not as bad and not as long.

Sachs Madass
 

I'd be looking for a Sachs Madass! (Sachs Nitro in Canada)

Easily adaptable, big wheels for better handling and off road tyres, fuel and luggage capable, light, strong and ergonomically designed, cult following, cool looking bike :-) Saw a couple of good low K examples for around the 2K mark :-)

http://www.madassarmy.com/about.html

I would go for a Honda wave 125cc. These bikes are used throughout Asia on all types of terrain.

I would respectfully disagree with the comments that Knobbies are a must. These bikes are light and can easily go over the mud or around it. For really slick mud you can put your feet down as pontoons and or for steadying the bike.

I have seen girls on these bikes in high heels go past big guys on big dirt bikes who have crashed in mud.

That shows how much weight means in rough conditions....:scooter:

http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thu...d-scooter.jpeg

a way to go :thumbup1: