Perfect Adv Bike v Perfect Adv Attitude
 

Hi guys,

One of the followers of my blog suggested I post my most recent article entitled, "The Perfect Adventure Bike, or the Perfect Adventure Attitude" in this forum. Maybe up you'll enjoy it and perhaps it will offer another perspective when you're thinking about, "Which bike?" The link is below:

The Perfect Adventure Bike, or The Perfect Adventure Attitude? � HORCA MOTO

Cheers!

Paul

I posted this comment in that blog post, and I think I'd like to repeat it here. Your article reminded me of a story I read perhaps 20 years ago in a moto magazine – I think 'Rider', but I can’t recall for sure.

A moto journalist attended the Australian press showing of a new bike, some kind of 750 standard. The rider checked the bike out, fired it up and rode it out of Sydney. After riding it around on a variety of roads, he pulled over to a rest stop perhaps an hour or two north of Sydney. He hopped off the 750cc, stood back, and appraised the bike in his mind.

He had always wanted to tour all the way around Australia on an epic road trip, but for one reason or another had never done so. This was the bike, he thought to himself; finally I’ve found a motorcycle that is perfect for such a long and arduous trip of a few months on the road.

Just then, a small scooter, heavily laden with baggage, pulled into the rest stop beside him. The journalist was surprised, as he was miles from the nearest town, and this scooter looked too small to ride any serious distance on the highway. The rider jumped off and waved to him. She was a petite Japanese woman who spoke English half-decently.

When he talked with her, she told him she was riding around Australia on the little scooter – exactly the sort of trip he’d just been mulling over! He thought to himself that the bike was too small for the trip, but he wished her good luck on the long journey ahead of her.

“What do you mean?” she asked. “My trip is almost over – I’ve been riding for months and I’ve gone all the way around. I’ll be back in Sydney in an hour!”

I guess the moral of the story is that you can tour on any bike if you really want to make it happen.

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...ia2013_215.jpg

A chap I met last year 150 km east of Yakutsk, Siberia, Far Eastern Russia: Phil Kirk from Australia on a 1983 Jawa 250 2 smoke. Riding from Magadan to London to attend a conference. His Australian employer was paying his transport to get there. Most use the money to buy an air ticket. He used it on freight from Brisbane to Magadan as well as petrol and 2 stroke oil!

Phil and the bike made it to London, with barely a hitch. Definitely worth considering alternative choices of vehicle when planning long distance travel. It doesn't need to be a real (or faux) "adventure" market niche junket with bling out of the catalogue. As said, attitude is good.

That's an MZ mate. Amongst Commie 2-smokers like myself there is a distinct hierarchy (when you are this far down the food chain it probably starts to matter!!). MZ were going to win the GP until Ernst Degner ran off to Suzuki to sort then out. They did win ISDT type stuff. Jawa/CZ (twin/split single 2-smoke) didn't do bad and of course did amazing things at speedway. Good engineering limited by poor materials. Planeta and Minsk etc. made these two look like breezing into town on a Brough when the locals were still pedalling!


Give me £200 for a new ignition unit and I'd set off on the MZ in the garage tomorrow.


Just saying! ;-)


Andy

I used to think that there were 2 kinds of Adventure riders. Ones that spent weekends riding off road in the woods or deserts and those that took multi month, multi nation trips. Now, according to the article, one must travel off road for it to be an adventure.

I consider myself a bike rider who travels, I have backpack/Bused around the world and ridden around but the best of 2 worlds is travelling on a bike. I just don't go for the little off road bikes and I like to ride on road, preferably paved and curvy.

Most of the world has roads now, and you can get away from your comfort zone very easily without going off road.

I have had people laugh at the ADV sticker on my Victory when their GS has never been across a border.

I like adventure
http://images2.snapfish.com/23232323...5%3B4337nu0mrj


Dirt and mud, not so much
http://images3a.snapfish.com/2323232...5%3C2337nu0mrj

Andy
My sincerest and most humble apologies for not knowing the difference between a MZ (ar$e?) and a Jawa (elbow?) :smartass:. I'm struggling to work out which out the the 2 is allegedly better.

Greetings to the neather regions of the food chain :mchappy:

cheers!

Attitude ...UPS and DOWNS!
 

From Paul's Blog:
Good and valid points all! :thumbup1:

But ultimately it gets back to your earlier point:
To me, the above is KEY. Is your trip about "THE BIKE"? or is it about "The Trip ... that you happen to be doing on a bike"? :confused1: In years past we've seen riders set out on fully loaded, fully equipped BIG BIKES ... with a budget to match. Many still travel this way. But as Paul has pointed out ... lots of alternate approaches.

More and more we see younger (poorer) riders (and some older ones too) buying a small bike locally and setting out, improvising all the way. The world is big enough for both travel styles. Which is better depends on the rider and his point of view on travel.
Having a positive attitude makes all the difference.

Another good point was the bit about "What is an Adventure Bike" and "What is Adventure Travel". It's all up for interpretation innit? ... ADV Rider.com must have a hundred threads that have discussed this in great depth with hundreds of differing opinions. Too many really. The only one that really matters is your own. But ...DO put it to the test and get out there and DO IT!

Maintaining a good attitude is not always easy on the road. Group travel has iUPS and it's DOWNS too. The group dynamic separates you from locals and limits interaction but gives you support and camaraderie. Some prefer just hanging with mates vs. locals, who they can't communicate with anyway.

But dealing with the group dynamic can itself be challenging and exhausting ... unless you have a Fascist leader in charge so there is NO discussion or alternatives. :rofl: (been there, done that!)

But even solo riders who speak the language get the travel blues. They tire of the road and their "attitude" can suffer. Riding alone too long can also make you crazy ... when you have long, extended conversations with yourself ... you may be getting there! :helpsmilie: (yes, this is autobiographical :innocent:) Also, see Nathan Millward. (Postie bike guy)
Being alone too much can breed anti-social, xenophobic behaviors.

Maintaining "Group happiness" is a huge challenge. Even with just one riding companion, not always perfect or easy.

What I figured out was that life on the road living off a motorcycle is not ideal for ALL humans all the time. Some, on the other hand, take to it perfectly and can literally live on the road .... Forever ...happy as clams.

Having UPS and DOWNS is normal. Try to maintain the UPS as much as possible. Follow a travel routine that maintains a good attitude, this can make for a happy trip for you and those around you.
bier

That's the second link to the Horca site I've seen in the last 24hrs - not surprising as it seems to be well written with a lot of relevent stuff.

When it comes to the "bike traveller vs travelling biker" arguement I think it's more subtle than which side of the see-saw you're sitting on. Over the years I've travelled a lot by bike and a fair bit by car, van, public transport and on foot. Bike travel (for me anyway) isn't just one option among many, something I'll do when the budget is too tight to take the car or it's too far to walk, it's something that goes to the heart of my personality. I'm interested in the mechanisms of bike travel as well as the mechanics of the bike. I actively enjoy the interplay between riding the bike and the activity of travelling - even when I'm soaking wet or freezing cold, in a way that I get to a lesser degree when I'm in a car for example. The two come together to form something that's more than the sum of the individual parts. If you think that's a load of pretentious bollocks then might I suggest you might be more suited to a rucksack and the bus stop down the road.

It's because of that I'm not that bothered by the "adventure bike" industry that's sprung up over the last couple of decades. Yes I appreciate the wider range of bikes and bolt on bits that the upsurge has made available but for me the choice of bike has always come down to something that interests me, not something that ticks the perceived travel wisdom boxes. Money (within reason) has very little to do with this.

The eclectic collection of wrecks that have made up my biking history have come from somewhere else other than a desire to find the perfect travel / adventure bike. They've all been adventure bikes but the adventure has been inside my head. I want to ride a bike that interests me to on a journey that interests me and if the thing blows up a mile down the road, well, so be it. It even, at one point, included an MZ250 (and it might well again in the future) but never, ever a CZ. Even I have limits. :rofl:

Re good attitude and "the blues", I've been there, suffered that, and right at this moment I'm acting as support back up to my daughter who's a couple of weeks into her first long (three months) solo trip. I can see the signs of hyperactive nervousness developing in her as I've been there myself in the past.

Years ago I was involved in a series of minibus trips, all of which had problems of one sort or another and it was interesting (afterwards anyway) to see that some people were devastated when were (inevitably) periodically stuck at the side of the road, they just went to pieces. Others just took it in their stride. People's core personalities come to the fore at times like that and you soon learn whether you want to travel with them again.
I have an intense dislike of the "my way or else" travel companion and will no longer go anywhere with someone who insists they're in charge (other than my dear wife of course!) even if they're otherwise perfectly pleasant. It's not because I want the dominant role myself but because I much prefer it to be a voyage of equals. Not some communist collective on the road but taking others preferences and wishes into account is important to maintaining "group happiness". Finding that some sort of factionalisation develops and it ends in a mutiny (been on a trip where that happened) doesn't make for a good atmosphere.

Nathan, not Simon. Simon was tragically killed in Mali in 2003.

Excellent point! above and good post! I'm a motorcyclist at heart, have always done most of my own maintenance ... I too like the mechanical interplay. But my point (sort of, in a not very well presented way) was more about newer, younger and inexperienced riders coming from varied backgrounds ... most who never rode bikes before. Plenty of these guys and gals out there NOW as "adventure biking" really spreads out.

Far as bikes goes, I do prefer something more basic and simple over complexity. Reliability is important ... but this must be proven to me empirically, not from experience of others. I did lots of non motorcycle travel too .... and like you, enjoy traveling on a bike BEST! I work hard to keep my bike in good running order, after all, on a bike you could say your life depends on it! :scooter:

bier

I've read about Simon, but I own Nate's book ... so should have known better as it's sat here in front of me.
:oops2:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5..._7597465_n.jpg
Nate's famous Postie bike

"For me, ‘Light is Might’. And the lighter, the better."

I agree with him 100% on this.

"Until Yamaha give us a WR450R, I’m eyeing up the new CCM GP450. If the engine proves to be reliable, then for me we might be getting closer to the mythical perfect adventure bike."

The first company to make a 450 enduro with about 45 hp and a 7,500 km service interval (comparable to the 690) with good suspension is going to have my money.

I don't care if it has a fairing, I'd rather build my own. I don't care if its a Honda CRF, Yamaha WR, KTM. Just give me a reliable 450 thumper enduro with good suspension. The gap between DRZ 400 and KTM 690 is HUGE. Close to 40 hp. Why why why why hasn't any company filled this gap? For adventurers and weekend enduro riders alike, it would truly be an amazing bike. And please, try to keep it under 130 kilo :innocent:

I met a australian guy in Laos last winter on a Royal Enfield. I didnt ask his age but he must have been around 55-60. He had a huge beard, a huge belly and a huge smile. He was absoulutely a happy go lucky type of person. He had shipped his bike from Darwin to Indonesia some place and had been riding through Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia and were then in Laos. He wore a leather coat - not designed for motorbiking at all, some pair of working gloves (not motorbike gloves) and half face helmet and a pair of jeans. And just a pair of light boots. On the back on his Royal Enfield he had a cheap looking duffel bag medium size strapped to the bike. That was all he brought for a 5-6 mounds tour around southeastasia. He hang up with my group of bikers for 3-4 days and he was truly and honestly the coolest bike I ever have met.

And the best item he had was a T-shirt with a huge print on the chest who said this:

"ADVENTURE BEFORE DEMENTIA" :clap:

Now this ozzi guy definetively had the right attitude. The best attitude I ever saw at least.....:thumbup1:

Very interesting discussion and makes you classify yourself, and decide in which box of riding you belong. It also gives you perspective on others as well, which clears up the different perspectives on the bikes people choose.

The travel thing has wore off so these days it is more about the bike, so now my trips look like endurance runs of 450+ km per day. It is about the ride, not so much the destination. For this reason, the bigger bikes are more my preference. I do my weekend and day trips on gravel as well, totally about the road. 3000 km for me is a 1 week trip. I don't like groups. I have no interest in group dynamics, the social aspects etc, and it is about riding most of the day, eat, sleep, reset. Alone is best. With another rider, 2 to 3 days is enough. Smokers want to stop every 30 minutes, and those with small bladders every hour. Some get tired of gravel. Some only want gravel. Sometimes I'm happy to ride tar, other times gravel. Sand I don't like. Why compromise my ride just to ride with others?


I despise places where plenty of bikes gather, including breakfast run venues, tourist locations and check list 'must do' rides. Some of the rides I hated the most are what others say is great riding. Look on internet for great rides, and to me they are awful. To me it is just regularly seeing other bikes, clouds of dust, and the usual BS conversations with group riders. I prefer to get away from that.

Naturally once you can put classify your riding style, you can choose your bike. Perhaps it is about the trip and destinations, and the bike is only a form of transport. Then if it is just a form of transport small and cheap is better. I want a bike that puts a grin on my face. Like something in orange :scooter: I don't mind spending money on the bike. Money isn't a limiting factor for me. It just must be a ride I enjoy, preferably to a place without other bikes. For me, I like bikes and riding. I don't necessarily like the bike scene and don't associate with it. If I did I guess I would have a different view of the starbucks/group ride/breakfast run/MC scene.

Great story! Love it! Being happy out on the road is not always easy! Some of us bring our nightmares along in our panniers! doh

No question there is a gap in this segment. KTM seems to be doing the best at filling that gap. Husky and Husaberg were also doing a good job heading in that direction before their demise.

The Japanese companies have mostly been asleep the last 10 or 15 years.
Lots of reasons WHY ... but I predict a change is in the works ... from ALL of the big four.

KTM's 450EXC street legal race bike has great potential, IMO.
KTM also make a cool Dakar Rally version you can buy, not a good travel bike, and probably costs .. what? ... $25K to $30K? :(

I'd like to see KTM build a 450 version of the KTM 690. What do you think??c? More dual sport biased, real sub frame for luggage, reduced HP for long term reliability, longer maint. intervals. Will we see this? Dunno? :innocent:

I've heard rumors KTM are working on a smaller twin ... something 650 to 800cc ADV twin, light weight, perhaps inspired by the 950 SE? Rumor!

For the time being I think the "ancient" DRZ400S is not a bad choice. Sure, it's down on power ... but how much do you need on a travel bike?

DRZ wet weight is around 300 lbs. (136 kgs.). Heavy but not outrageous for a 100% street legal 400cc dual sport. The DRZ offers a real subframe, bullet proof proven engine with 14 years of history among tens of thousands of examples worldwide, many still on the road/trail.

The KTM 690 is about 320 lbs. wet (145 kgs. wet) Fantastic for a 650 class bike!

But once you add lots of extras and luggage for travel to either bike, weight goes UP sharply. Not sure how you get round that in an elegant way?:innocent:

You could take a 300cc Two Stroke Trials bike RTW (under 200 lbs) ... but once you load it up for travel ... it would get heavy quick and it's total character would change.

The other problem with loading up a very light weight race bike is that it changes it's character dynamic, which can affect handling.

The traveler has to sort of "re-design" his bike, adapt suspension and geometry to maintain proper handling whilst carrying luggage. Luggage must be arranged carefully to make it all work.

I would hope a bike built from the ground up to carry a luggage load would have an advantage? Hopefully CCM has thought about this with their new bike?

I like the idea of a 450 class bike in that not only will going off road on tougher tracts be more fun, but a 450 class bike forces us to pack lighter and smarter ... and just plain get along with LESS.
I'm thinking this could be a challenge to riders coming off a R12GS-A!
bier

The "Biker" vs. "Traveler" discussion will never stop, and continue until the universe will end...

The right bike is the one which makes you happy, not the one which make the next person over happy.

Never forget that happiness cannot be bought, only satisfaction can, and they are not the same things.

This is a philosophical discussion, and in general does not have anything to do with physical things...

I think it's BOTH ...
It's philosophical ... and physical. Check the title of the thread again ... then go back and read Paul's original essay.

Paul writes as much about "Which Bike" as he does about travel attitude and philosophy. So it's clearly BOTH ... and nothing is out of bounds, both are relevant ... but working out a proper "ratio" between attitude and the bike is tricky and very personal.

Your comments about "happiness" are entirely valid and important to be aware of too! I think a delicate balance much be maintained. (at least for me!) I devote a lot of energy and attention to my bike ... but it is not the center of the universe and does not dictate the parameters of a trip, but if my heart is not in the trip ... I can always fall back onto the bike for solace!

(yes, I'm crazy!) :rofl:

1.) Something about creative young engineers getting told "the way we do things here" and getting frustrated and leaving.

2.) RallyRaid UK and Torque Racing have successfully built a 450 LC4 from a 690 motor. It has about 50 hp. I think Jenny Morgan will be racing one in Dakar in 2015 and they will have 2 more in the race I think. Jenny Morgan Rode the bike from the Uk to the Hellas Rally, did the rally and rode it back to the UK. They never changed the oil till the bike got back to the Torque racing shop. lc450 dakar. I have heard they will sell a kit to convert the 690 into a 450 for people who want a pullet proof 450 or those who want to make their 690 enduros/rally bikes legal for FIM Rallies. But this begs the question, if you have a 690, why reduce it to 450 if you are not saving weight?

3.) They are developing an 800 an 500 parallel twin. Come on KTM! Make a 500 twin ADV!!!! (Please keep it under 130 kilo!)

4.) How much HP is needed? 45hp is a good number. :innocent:

I did read it, and found it immensely interesting.

I just spend the better part of 8 months trying to build the "perfect" travel bike, and then discovered that it's not possible, is not what I wanted. So I'm going to pull the plug and sell it.

So yes, we chase perfection, but perfection is not equal happiness, and at the end of the day we want to be happy.

I'd heard vague rumors about the 800 V-Twin, nothing on a 500 P-twin. I'd bet the 500 will be an Made In India Bajai motor, no?

I know Bajai have big plans for KTM. Will interesting to see how they handle it once they own a controlling share, if they don't already?

A super lightweight parallel twin would be cool. The Japanese have made one or two 300cc to 500cc twins over the last 50 years :smartass: ... shame the CB500X from Honda weighs in at 430 lbs. with 4.5 gallon on board, makes 46 HP but does get 70 mpg.

2013 Honda CB500X specifications and pictures

I have high hopes for the KTM's (Bajai) 390. Only read a couple reviews in the Brit press ... they were not all that complimentary of the bike. Bike has lots of problems, hope KTM can sort it out ... and hope the engine is a good one as KTM have plans to make an ADV bike out of it, according to Pierier in an interview a couple years ago. (CEO) Maybe this is the "500 parallel twin" you're thinking of? Or is that a totally different motor?

Please. Do not blaspheme. It is a KTM. there can only be a 790 and a 490. Would anyone whose blood runs orange buy anything else?

Blerry yank heathen :kiss:

Next you will tell me America, owned by the banks and Hollywood, and with more dollars in china than in the USA or Israel, is the land of the free.

the right attitude
 

I fully agree with the statement that the right attitude is the most important part of an adventure travel or of any travel really.

I was doing my first "adventure" riding in Laos a few years back not even knowing what adventure motorcycling meant that time. After watching "Long way down" I learned about this type of travel.

Anyway, I rode around Laos on a tiny rented Suzuki Van Van and it was the highlight of my otherwise 6 months back packing tour.

http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/...psdbab05ae.jpg


As you can see I'm not equipped with Touratech or Klim gear or had a gps but only relaying on the kindness of locals and a good attitude.

My first "adventure" tourer was a 78 Kawasaki KZ750B2 (twin). I was doing a lot of riding in the deserts of Northern Mexico and the high country of eastern California. The bike came to me from a guy nicknamed "Crash" and looked as if it had been dragged for days under a bus. It had fiberglass bags which I promptly removed (not paying attention and rode into an arroyo tearing both bags off). I replaced them with a set of 37mm ammo cans bolted to a set of homemade mounts (superb bags, waterproof, huge, indestructable if a bit heavy). The tires were, more or less bald (at 18 you don't really know very much) so I replaced them with full knobbies as I was off-road as much as on. This bike took me everywhere my VF750 would not and I had a blast doing it. Was it a great adv. tourer? Absolutely! My second foray was an 81 cx500 Honda (reused the same 37mm cans after the KZ was destroyed by a nearly blind (but awfully nice) old guy who ran it into a building while parked.The bags had one small dent...Verdict on the cx? Excellent! This was the most overbuilt bike in history. Liquid cooled, shaft drive, all for a 500cc twin. The bike was everything you'd want for rough overland touring (might've had more ground clearance). It was eventually replaced by a gs80 which was, of course, even better. It was the places I went, not really the bikes that made these years of riding so very good. I had thought I was very intrepid until I came across a guy on a 74 fl way up a set of fire roads in the back of beyond. No mods, street tires, just patient competent riding. Just shows that you can go anywhere if you've the will to.
Just playing Devil's advocate for a moment... have you ever noticed that the more difficult (arduous, nightmarish...) the trip, the more we remember? If you want a real adventure, take the worst imaginable bike for the job. Say, like Emilio Scotto, a Gold Wing through jungles, or perhaps a Hayabusa through Baja (no pavement, either) a 75 CZ Falta replica with lights cross country on interstates. If adversity breeds character, these trips would be very character-building. But they wouldn't be dull!

Possibly take up chainsaw juggling too? ;-)


I often like dull. Dull often seems to involve knowing that at 55 mph the plod will have to think of some other way to rip me off. Dull is a type of theft proofing, thieves don't do dull as much as flashy. Dull means than on days after the night before my brain can keep up with the machinery. If dull means camping halfway down some trail and doing the other half in the morning rather than doing it like a stage of the Dakar I'll have to be dull.


Andy

You really hit the nail with that comment. I mean aren't we all here to be adventurous, to ride a bike into the unknown to have an adventure? So why so many people choose the high tech bullet proof super comfortable warrantied machines? In our modern high tech life does the word adventure lost its meaning?

You ride, so you aren't addicted to the dull. If you were, you'd be on the toyota prius forum. What seems dull can sometimes turn out superbly. In March I went riding (28 degrees F, snow filled trails) this got a little sporty for me (lots of crabwise motion) so I retreated to the paved/plowed much duller back roads. I stopped for a short break near a stand of pines. Off to my right I saw movement and, there on the same tree, were a pair of birds. One was a bluejay and the other a male cardinal. Brilliant sun, deep green and black trees, white snow, and two of our most colorful and spectacular birds all in one place. Were I a religious man, I'd say God was rewarding me for the earlier visual comedy of my snow riding. Such vivid images must be seen in person, this will not happen in the living room. So much for the duller road.

Well, I always want bulletproof (mechanically) so I get a bit heavy with maintenance. The funny thing is that adventure sort of occurs, you don't need to look for it. Getting lost on Chicago's south side was an adventure, but it wasn't planned. You can go wherever you want with a bike so why not go to the places a car cannot? If we want comfort, we'd drive a land rover.Point being, we're limited by our will to go, not the thing we go on. Any bike can adventure tour or tour (some just do it better). My honeymoon in 88 was on a 72 Triumph Tiger (I broke a ring reassembling my Moto Guzzi and it took 2 1/2 months to get rings.) It was a great 10 day trip. Breakdowns (minor) roadside repair, campground maintenance, seat like a brick, etc. just made it more memorable.

I agree 100% with the article. As for the best bike discussion or who is or who isn't considered a true adventure rider ........ All bikes have their limitations and advantages, as does the person riding it. Both have been argued and debated over and over again. I respect anyone who had taken a 1200GS Adv or a 250 Yamaha around the globe, across a continent or a country. Just ride and enjoy !!!

well said!

If I may add the only thing that can be a deciding factor of what bike to use is how much fun you are having riding a particular bike. I only had a chance to ride a few different bikes but I hear from other riders the fun factor differs from bike to bike.

So, the perfect bike leads to the perfect attitude? :smartass:

isn't it that new SR400 close enough to fit the bill then?