Honda xr650L or yamaha xt 600?
 

following my other thread I have come to my senses! I think I bought into all the hype and was convinced I needed a big bike. As I want to get off the beaten track in Africa I now realise it is sensible to take something smaller and after a lot of thinking I feel a bike in the 600 range will be right for me. Thinking about my preference I would very much like:

1) Air cooled reliable engine
2) kickstart or ability to retrofit a kickstart



From reading around, the Honda xr650L and yamaha xt 600 seem to fit my preferences, with many positive reports of people riding through Africa on them. Are there any other proven bikes which people feel would be a good choice based on my preferences?

Out of the two bikes which do you think is the better choice and what is the best year to go for on these bikes? Weight wise they seem quite similar with the Honda being a few kg lighter.

I heard the Honda can run hot, but wonder if fitting an oil cooler is the answer? Does the Yamaha run hot? Which is the most reliable engine out of the two?

Both bikes will obviously need bigger tanks, but I don't mind spending a bit of money on a Acerbis tank. What about parts availability? I guess Honda parts will be easier to come by in Africa?

Honda parts in Africa..... erm....not really. Some will even say Honda's don't need spare parts!

Fitting an oil cooler - doable on some bikes if you know what you are doing. (I fitted one to my Dakar for awhile)

External fuel tanks cost big bucks. Cheaper to use fuel bladders which weigh next to nothing when empty. It all depends on your budget.

IMHO whatever machine you take, the same mantra applies:
Have it properly serviced before going.

Fit any new spares then do a dummy run loaded with your kit to make sure they fit and work and that your luggage weight is manageable...

Learn all you reasonably can about servicing your own bike- you'll need it. Aside from Tony in Lome there are precious few brand trained mechanics on the Western Route- come to think of it- ditto on the Eastern route.

Try to find someone who owns the bike you will have bought and who used his/hers on a long trip and ask them if they will share their knowledge.

Any parts you are not carrying will most probably have to be DHL'ed. Expensive and time consuming but it happens.
There are pkaces where you can beg/borrow or pay to cannabalise parts.
Bike shops are a very rare thing beyond Morocco.

One thing you'll have to leave behind is the European mindset!

Both bikes are sensible choices but most of Bertrand's rules apply nonetheless.

I owned a Honda XR-L back in 1993 (bought new). Not my favorite dual sport but if sorted well, can be very good. It's good off road, but as you found, they run hot. Rear sub frame and battery box also weak areas. But LOTS of potential if fixes are done!

Don't know much about the legendary XT600 other than dozens have made the trip you're planning on XT's. I believe they are still common & available in the UK. (production ceased in ?2003 or so?) XR-L no longer imported to UK but still in production and sold new in USA and elsewhere.

But DO check out Ted's well sorted XR650L ... for sale here on HUBB:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-mileage-83896

Other options are starting your trip in S. Africa. Fly in, buy (or rent?) a bike and go. Ride a big loop and re-sell there (buy back?) or re-sell somewhere North. Plenty of good bikes for sale in S. Africa, about same prices as UK/EU.

Also consider a Suzuki DR650 ('97 or newer). It's the bike I (and thousands more) ride, but not for sale in UK or EU, but is available in S. Africa and all of North America. Used ones very inexpensive in USA.

Also, a guy here on HUBB just bought a new DR650 from USA and had it shipped to UK. (all done by phone)

You could probably find a few set up XT's or XR-L's in the UK now that are set up for travel (like Ted's one above).

Also check this bike out:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...drz-400e-84101

DRZ is great bike for off road. IMO, would make a good Africa bike.

Don't worry about kick start. Batteries are not like the bad old days. Good batteries last 5 years easy. No longer an issue. Start trip with NEW battery of course!

bier

Thanks Molly, I did look at the Suzuki DR650SE before and it looks a cracking bike, but the deal breaker for me is there is no practical way to fit a kickstart. As for the drz 400e, I think that bike is water cooled? I really want an air cooled bike, as if I crash it, it's one less thing to break.

What about a TT600R Belgarda?

Basically same engine as a XT600, aircooled and kickstart-only, but with bigger airbox and carbs. You can also get a Acerbis 21 litre tank for it.

It was Yamaha's answer to a (relatively) hardcore enduro before being replaced by the WR.

It has many nice details such as fully adjustable Paoli/Öhlins suspension with a lot of travel, Tagasako alloy rims, Brembo brakes with braided hoses, swingarm grease nipples, quick-change airfilter, etc.

The biggest downside to the bike is the narrow seat that turns highways into pure torture sessions. An airhawk or custom seat is a must. Its also quite a tall bike...I'm 182 cm and I can't flatfoot it, but only reach the ground with the tip of my feet. Nothing precarious, but might be an issue to some.

I think its a serious contender for a Africa overland trip, but I have to say that, as I own one with the sole purpose of doing a major overland trip ;)

Like shaft drive fantasies, you may want to consider leaving kick start and anti water cooled obsessions behind as well. Keep researching, see what you come up with.

Unless you go back to a 1980's XT500 or early XT600 or some early XL Hondas, I'm not sure many kick start dual sports are currently around past mid 90's or so. I'm sure they're a few ... but would those old nails be ideal travel bikes? :innocent:

I grew up on kick start bikes, (from early 60's) also lived through decades of poor (British, Spanish and German) elec. systems and hundreds of dead batteries. I became an expert at bump starting big British twins at age 15! :rofl: ... and kicking them just wore you out or broke your ankle.

Also rode crap air cooled bikes that burnt up or seized for no apparent reason. Those days are gone. (thank God!) Liquid cooling pretty much rules now with just a few notable exceptions among 1st world big cc bikes sold by the Big Four. (DR650 is one)

The DR650 is the easiest starting bike on the market. Barely touch the button and it's running! Excellent electrics too! :thumbup1: thump thump thump!

And don't forget superior Japanese electrics in general. Unlike some "others" I could mention ... Japanese electrics work ... and keep working (think Denso). If you run the DR's battery dead (it will continue running :thumbup1:) it's not a problem to bump start ... if on pavement or hard dirt surface if you have good technique.

Take care your electrics and all will be well. Don't run too many accessories. But the charging system will restore a dead battery in 20 minutes riding providing battery is reasonably healthy and not sat round too long.

I too appreciate the air cooled aspect regards ADV travel bikes, but the DR650 is not typical. It uses the very sophisticated Suzuki SACS oil/air cooling system developed for the GSXR race bikes in the early 90's. Google it. The DR got it in
1997 with the "all new" DR650SE.

Regards liquid cooling:
I raced AMA Enduro for 8 years (liquid cooled 2 strokes). Had dozens of big crashes ... never busted a radiator, broke a hose or lost a water pump. ALL Japanese bikes of course. So, while it can happen, it's fairly RARE!

But it IS a factor ... what with hoses, water pump and such. All that said, I do like my DR's "oil/air cooled" system but would have no problem riding (and have ridden) a liquid cooled machine to ends of the earth.

The DR650 has an "oil cooler" radiator. Does an incredible job at oil cooling. DR650's never over heat ... as tested by me in 118F temps riding hard. Never a whimper. :D

So keep researching, see what you come up with. Most of the guys who've commented have owned many dual sport singles and most have traveled on them. Take the advice given seriously. They are the "real deal".

Good luck! bier

Thanks for your feedback Molly, but the Yamaha Xt 600 was made until 2004 and I can get a very recent Honda Xr650L. From my research it is relatively easy to retrofit a kickstart to both models, therefore you get a bike which is not ancient with a kickstart. Also you don't loose the ability to electric start, so you have the best of both worlds. It's very well saying you can bump start, but on sand in the desert I can't see this happening.

I completely hear what you say regarding unreliable air cooled engines, that's why I started looking at these two bikes which both have a proven history of making Africa trips. I do understand the Honda does run hot and wonder what it is like when pushed to the extreme? Do you think fitting an oil cooler would be enough to avert any fears? As for the Yamaha, don't know how hot this runs? I did hear it burns a lot of oil, but don't know how true that is?

Thanks prop for your suggestion of the TT600R Belgarda. What advantage do you think this bike has over the two models I am looking at? What made you go for this option? How hot does the bike run and how will it cope pushed to the limits in the desert heat?

I also owned one for a while; it was a pig to start, kicker only.
Battery-less ignition, there is a routine to starting the belgrada that has been posted in here previously.

There are no cush rubbers on the rear hub = a "harsh" ride experience.

I am not sure if the engine is at a higher state of tune compared with the XT600 version - does the XT600 have a dry sump engine design? The TTR600 is definitely dry sump.

The OEM exhaust drops to bits - the end cap blows off and disappears into the nearest hedgerow (that end cap has pop rivet fixings so that they act in tension rather than in shear - the net result is that the pop rivet heads fail and away the end cap goes).

xr
 

to fit a kicker to an xrl you have to split the engine cases you will need bits from a xr 600 or early domi , oil cooler easy just split the pipes to the frame and plumb in

Ive never owned a XR650L, so I have no grounds for comparison. That being said, I've owned Honda's and they're every bit as reliable as Yamaha.

Compared to the XT, the TT is more offroad oriented whereas the XT is more road oriented.

My impression is, that Yamaha spent abit more fitting quality parts to the TT.

For example the oil tank comes stock with a temp gauge and a sight glass which makes oil level checks a breeze. It has beefier 46 mm Paoili forks which in theory are more flex resistant. Rear shock is a high-quality Öhlins. A stark contrast compared to the mediocre XT suspension. The rear tire is 18 inch, which allows you to run the serious offroad tires such as Michelin Deserts or Dunlop 908 Rally Raids.

The Deltabox swingarm has grease nipples, so you don't have to pull the whole thing apart to grease it. Same thing with the rubber swingarm protector, its made so it can be replaced without removing the swingarm.

All throughout, the TT has nice small details like that.

Its also a surprisingly stable bike at speed.


Its one of the lightest 600cc thumpers of its era weighing 134 kgs dry. Besides its based on the proven XT600 engine, which was a important as reliability is high on my list.

Another thing was price...for my needs, this was the best buy at the price. Didn't need to go around spending money on proper suspension, etc. I wanted a bike which capabilites didn't limit my offroad adventures, yet was still civilised on the road.


That's difficult to tell. I haven't done any desert trips yet. Normal highway riding in the summer or heavy city riding sees temps rise to 120c which is perfectly fine. I did 900 km in one day, where the last 400 km was on the German Autobahn during a heatwave (38-39 c), where I pushed the bike hard, as I had a deadline. During that time, oil tank temp was a constant 130c. The bike burnt 350 ml of oil, but that was due to the high engine revs I kept for hours at a time. Probably blow-back, as the bike hasnt burnt a single drop since.

I heard from another Hubb member, who contacted Dave Lambeth on the oil cooler issue for desert riding. He said, that the XT would cope fine and no need for an oil cooler.

Yes, I've heard the horror stories. I found that correct valve settings makes the whole difference. Mine starts 2 kicks cold and 1 kick warm. It has a very specific starting procedure though.

Its not tuned any differently, only difference is the engine is narrower by 30 mm, lighter flywheel and crankshaft, bigger carbs and airbox. That's it.

No cush rubbers on the TT, but hasn't bothered me. I guess it comes down to what you're used to.

I've got a Sebring exhaust on mine, which is holding up fine.

The TT isn't a perfect bike though...it vibrates like hell. During the 900 km/ 14 hour day I put in on it, I lost the feeling in my throttle hand for several days afterwards. The seat is narrow and another seat or Airhawk is a must in my opinion. The headlight ain't worth crap...might as well carry a candle lantern on a stick. I'm changing my whole front fairing to a LED set up.

The lack of a battery can be a pain, when wiring up GPS, charger or other electrics. The alternator puts out 185 watts, so consider that too.

The TT is faster than an XT, but a KTM or water cooled XR650R has an extra 15-20 horses on it and will blow it out of the water, both in acceleration and top speed. In reality the TT cruises best at 110 km/h (speedo speed) but will easily hit 130 during passes.

I would have preferred something that handles asphalt better with a higher crushing speed, but I can't afford a bigger/newer/lighter/faster bike. Its what I have and its perfectly capable. So I'll make do with it.

Thanks for the info on the bike. Out of interest what would you have gone for if you had a larger budget?

As we've arrived in 600 single land have you had a look at Chris Scott's website - and in particular his Desert Riders experience with XR650Ls. Lots of stuff there about pros and cons / prep / riding experience etc.

Link to Chris's site - Honda XR650L for Desert Riders | Adventure Motorcycling Handbook

It's true, bump starting in sand is impossible. We rig a tow strap to do this, and even that is hard.

Good news if you can adapt a kick start. Consider costs for the job.

An Oil cooler is good for sure, if installed professionally should be reliable. Try to mount it somewhere out of harm's way.

I have Honda XR-L stories from the 90's and many Baja trips. During this time ... it seemed "everyone" owned an XR650L. If pushed hard they use oil (like most 650 singles run hard). The Honda does not like being even a little bit low on oil.
Keep it topped up and try to use QUALITY synthetic oil when possible.

Other issues were bent or broken sub frames. Many travelers re-enforce the subframe and re-do the battery box. Other than that, all good once you get it jetted right, which was tough for me. In the right hands with the right prep the XR-L can be a stellar travel bike.
bier

backofbeyond thanks for the info on the Chris Scott site, I found it very useful.

Molly what do you mean "re-do the battery box" are you referring to structurally reinforcing this or relocating it elsewhere?

I like the new Honda CB500X with the Rally Raid Adventure kit.

That being said, with all the "Adventure" add-ons a TT or XR is still much better offroad. The CB excels as a all-round overlander though I imagine.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/...5c3d4tdodb.jpg

Both options have been done on the XR-L. A California company called Baja Designs used to produce (may still produce?) various things for the XR-L. One of the "kits" was a new, stronger battery box. But I also heard of owners re-locating the battery as well but never saw this in person. It would be a BIG JOB as so much of the key electronics are based around the current battery box location.

Best to simply reinforce it. Not a big deal. But the rear sub frame is more a concern if running panniers or a tail bag. Mine bent, but did not break and I carried at most a 15 lbs. bag on the rear rack. But DID ride in HORRENDOUS terrain at full speed. (I was much younger and braver then!)

Many other guys I rode with broke sub frames but not much else broke on the bike. A few did wear out top ends from running low on oil. That Honda radial valve head is NOT one of Honda's better designs. But with a cooler and good oil I'm betting it would hold up to tough use.

bier

Thanks molly. It's a little concerning regarding the sub frames. How much bracing do you think is required to make it up to the job. I did see some no welding bolt on kit to reinforce it - anyone know if these are any good?

Where did you take your bike molly? Sounds like it did some serious adventure. What sort of mileage range did you get out of a tank if ridden hard offroad?

Me and my XR-L did limited "adventures". Only one 1500 mile Baja trip and several organized dual sport rides here in California and Nevada and some street riding and commuting.

I struggled with Carb jetting on my XR-L so fuel economy was never great, around 42 to 45 MPG (US gallon). This was my fault, not the Honda's.

The bike was VERY TALL for me as well. (38" seat height I believe) It was a pretty good road bike and one of the best of 650's off road if set up correctly. (mine was not)

Somehow I fell out of love with it ... sold it after just a year from new. I was still racing two strokes then ... so the XR-L felt heavy by comparison, and I fell down a lot riding it. I rarely fall, even on race bikes. So never did any extended travels on the bike beyond Baja and local riding, never "bonded" with the bike, but MANY DO ... and many get them going really well. Remember, my experience was back in 1993 or so.

Reinforcing sub frame is quite basic and most good welders/fabricators can do the job in a few hours work. Search for threads on ADV Rider on XRL 650 builds. Some have documented this.

bier

It needs this because the standard tank is designed for enduro = 10 litre capacity (and the bigger carb must have a worse fuel consumption but I con't recall what I managed to get out of mine).

Yes, then later, Yam fitted a lesser suspension on the TT600RE to pay for the electric starter.

I bought my 2001 model secondhand and it definitely didn't come with a temp gauge - maybe some earlier owner removed it.

I also seem to remember using a dip stick for the oil level in the dry sump tank - a typical Yam black plastic thingy but it was a few years, and a few bikes, ago.

just to recap regarding the question, if you could take either the Honda Xr650L or Yamaha Xt 600 what would be people choose and why?

Personally I'd take the Yamaha. Even though I've done many trips on my XR600 and therefore feel "connected to the XR-L the seat height makes it a non starter. That's because I've got short (29") legs and although you can do as Mollydog says and slide off to one side, balance on tiptoe, wear platform boots etc it does become mentally tiring on a long trip. I know the XT isn't that much lower but, as in other walks of life, those few extra inches can make all the difference.

If that's not an issue that affects you then it would depend on what turned up and what condition it was in as I'd be happy with either. These days both bikes are going to have had previous "careful' owners (probably a number of them) so condition will be everything. In the UK at least the XR-L is a bit of a rare beast so the Yamaha parts situation is likely to be better.

There's a bit on bike selection here from the book "Africa Overland". Both Yamaha and Honda are mentioned.

https://books.google.dk/books?id=iE6...africa&f=false

I can second that. My XT is great and touch wood is doing a good job dragging me round the Balkans fully loaded

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5778/...c0517986_c.jpgIMG_2362 by Wayne 66, on Flickr

Wayne

Thanks for your opinion. You seem to insinuate that the main reason was because of the seat height, but aside for that which one do people feel is better mechanically? Which has the better engine / transmission that will stand up to daily abuse in the desert heat?

I dont think there's a general consensus on one that is generally considered a better bike than the other. Both the XR and XT have many years behind them, and have proven themselves as tough and reliable bikes.

The internet is bursting with info on both models, so troubleshooting won't be an issue either. Neither will parts, as long as you have a parts fiche, there are several internet shops that can provide everything you need for them.

Choose the one you like and don't look back.

Thanks for your good advice. If both are good bikes and it comes down to personal preference rather than objective criteria, there is the other issue of parts. Are both equally good for sourcing local parts in Africa, or am I more likely to have parts issues with one than the other when on the road?

I doubt you'll get parts for either of them in the majority of Africa - as you won't for most vehicles that Europeans travel down there in /on. So no crankshafts or camshafts or gearbox bits or anything specific like CDIs etc. But if something's mendable (a bent subframe for example) you'll find people on every street corner who can fix it or even remake it. I once had a new kickstart fabricated in about two hours (and then refabricated another three times but that's another story).

As I said, I'd go with the XT because of a combination of the XR-L's dimensions and my lack of them, but other than that either of them would do. Both of them would need pre trip preparation (as would just about any bike) but neither of them have any huge inherent weak points that would be trip ending if ignored (not that I'm aware of anyway).

For me, pre trip preparation falls into two main areas. Firstly I want to know whether the core of the bike is up to the task. That means putting miles on the bike and getting to know it - are there any knocking noises, clunks, rumbles etc that indicate things are worn out, does it leak oil or smoke like a two stroke etc. That's going to come down to buying a decent one in the first place.

Secondly you need to look closely at what is going to to be vulnerable on the trip you're planning. Things wear out - chains, sprockets, tyres, tubes, brake pads, oil, filters, bulbs and possibly, cables, so how are you going to deal with that. Taking spare everythings with you is possible - and some people do - but one of the laws of overlanding states that no matter what you take it'll be the part you don't have that you need. Some bikes do have known weak points - DRZ400 cam chain adjusters / engine cases for example but neither of the two bikes under discussion to the best of my knowledge need more than the "usual" stuff (XR-L subframe possibly excepted. Here's a link to what someone else did with theirs - www.GABE-RTW.co.uk )

I've heard some people say that XR style radial valve engines don't deal with overheating well but I've not had an issue with mine and Honda produced variants of that engine for many years. It can be hard to tell sometimes when an air cooled engine is overheating which is one area where water cooled stuff scores. When steam starts to come out and you can't see where you're going it's probably time for a coffee break.

The "usual" stuff is a combination of what's needed for the terrain you anticipate riding over (bigger fuel tank, bash plate, luggage system etc) and what's desirable (decent seat, electronic gadgets, fluffy dice etc). You'll be doing some of this irrespective of which bike you go with.

Do you know if there is any consensus on which bike uses more oil? I read one post about the Yamaha burning through oil, but I suspect that was more of a problem with that particular bike.

Ahh, that brings back memories!

Sounds like you have yours sorted - I never did because I never quite gelled with the bike and then I went abroad to work so it was sold (no point in such a machine sitting around doing nothing for long periods).

It seemed to me that there was a bigger following for the TTR600 in Germany compared with the UK.
(I got a large second hand tank from German ebay, years ago)

It's a "variable of variables" as indicated in the post below.


Individual bikes vary in their oil consumption, quite apart from particular manufacturers/models.

My XT hasn't seemed to have used any in over 2300 miles. But I assume different bikes of the same model will vary

Wayne

I've owned most of the current 650 class dual sport bikes and most will use some oil when ridden hard or at fast highway speeds (70 to 80 mph). Worn out bikes or bikes with problems can use A LOT of oil, but even a perfect bike can use oil.

Short list includes XL600R, KLR650 (2), XR400,XR650L, KTM640, KTM Duke ll, Suzuki DR650 (3). The only one that did NOT burn some oil is my current 2006 DR650. Now, at 65,000 miles it's finally started to use a bit of oil when ridden hard. (a few ounces in a 1000 miles) Even running 75 mph all day in super HOT weather ... it would not use ANY oil! (until recently)

I don't know XT's well as Yamaha stopped importing this model to USA in 1995, but LOTS of guys owned them before that. Good bike far as I know.

The Honda seemed most sensitive to running low on oil, where as the KLR650 could be run hard until oil level was at bottom mark and never be any worse for wear. KLR's, even new model, are notorious for oil use. Many owners go to a big bore kit to get past this fault. With the KLR, you add a bit of oil nearly everyday if riding fast/hard.

Honda? Not so forgiving as the KLR. I pitted a cam on my XL and friends had to replace entire top ends on XR-L. Good news is very few were left stranded, but run that XR650L too low on oil and it will expire. :rain:

The Suzuki DR650 has an oil cooler and uses a Nikisil type liner. On the HUGE DR650 boards we rarely see oil burners, even up to 75K miles on some. (mine went to 65K before oil use started), still runs perfect if a bit noisy.

bier

The TTR and TTRE has a huge following in Germany, Italy and Greece with plenty of knowledge and parts.

Ive had my bike for 1½ years now, and im slowly sorting it out to fit my needs. Its pretty good as it is, but itll be much better with a Renazco seat and with a different fairing with 2 x LEDS and some wind protection.

David151, the XT600E may be unsuitable for kick start installation. As I understand it the internal gear ratios are different from the TTR600 and the older XT's. The kickstart mechanism can be installed (some cases require some machining) but as I understand it, kick starting the bike is hard. I am not an expert, just pointing out that maybe you should double check if you want to get the XT600E.

My 2000 XT600E has done 15 km in deep sand, flat out, high rpm in first gear. It did not overheat or suffer any damage. The air temp was not high but the airflow was very low, obviously. If the XT600E had a tendency to overheat it would have done that then. As you probably know the XT600E is strongly built with a massive subframe.

Cant really comment on the XR, but my FMX650 has the same engine as the XR650L. It has considerable more power than the XT600E, if that matters to you. I have yet to overheat it, but then I have it correctly jetted (it comes way lean from the facory). Of course it is a roadbike and is never tortured at low speed, the airflow is always there.

I had a TT600RE, and would consider it a poor choice for a long trip unless heavily modified. It was not comfortable onroad, especially on bumpy roads. The seat is too narrow, the suspension is very harsh/cheap. The TTR600 has a better suspension, but the same seat..

I have not read the entire post but… Having owned both (well, XTs in the Tenere version), I would get the one in the best condition and with the best equipment for the best price with the least amount of travelling. For me the big improvement on the Honda was the CR-derived suspension – much better than anything I ever had on my XTs and a major upgrade cost saved.

As some have suggested, the whole kickstart thing is irrelevant these days, just as starter cranks are with cars. Just buy a new battery and remember to switch the bike off (somewhere on the HUBB is a video of me failing to bump my L for a bet). A starter motor spins the crank much quicker and more consistently than you can kick on a hot afternoon in the Nubian desert.

One problem with the XR-L is it's tall seat (Domi motor in 'CR' frame = sub-optimal fit), but if you're also tall then the suspension makes up for it.

On any bike I think its important to know how hot the motor is, but these days all you might get is a red warning light. A simple temp sensor off the plug or in oil will work. Establish what's normal, refer to it regularly and back off or slow down when it looks like it's being exceeded. And with air-cooled, don't turn off when very hot - park it into a breeze and keep it running so the oil is still pumping.

I think oil consumption has a lot to do with how a bike was treated in its early days. Gentle running in, sympathetic cold starts, avoiding the red line and frequent changes with good oil must all help. Big, air-cooled single are more prone to oil loss than others due to the thermal expansion and contraction of the big piston (or something like that).

Never tried a DR650 but in Europe in the Saharan heyday, it was mostly Yams and Hondas and BMs. Then DRs and no Kawas. It could have been down to Dakar results at the time.

Xr650l
 

.... is the way to go. Same rolling chasis as the xr600 with a more tractable engine and road going niceties.
Did nearly 5,000 in North America on one and perfect for the job. A friend did the same on a DR 650 and followed me with green eyes for hundreds of miles in the dirt.
The only problem is getting a decent one now.

....... 700 miles in one day was the longest days..... not a problem with a Corbin seat and big acerbis tank

I've had a few XT600's. I now own a XR650L

The 650L is better in most ways apart from it's weak subframe. That's fixed with 30 mins welding or bolt on braces. Easy fix.

The XR650L suspension is worlds better than the cheap junk on the XT600E. But with that you have to get along with a very tall seat height. It's a real off-road capable bike. The XT is not...

The XR has DID Alloy rims where the XT has Chrome steel junk.

The 650 shares the same engine with the Dommie so spares are easy but it does have a shorter gear box. Not massively different though. I put a Dommie engine in mine as I had a spare.

The 650 also has that extra 50cc. And you can feel it. It can tour at 70 mph as the XT is a 60 mph machine.

As far as reliability goes, the Yamaha edges it if you get a later one with the truly indestructible 4PT engine. The Honda 650 is a very very good engine but it is sensitive to bad people who don't check it's oil. And yes, it can run a little hot but unless you're spinning the back wheel in sand dunes all day , it won't effect you. Put a cooler plug in it or fit an oil cooler.

If I had to choose one for a 'Forever' bike, it would be the XR650L by a long way.

A nice XR650L is Europe is VERY rare though. They appear on Ebay from time to time and mostly they have been abused to hell and need a lot of work.

I've had four of them as I restore and sell them.

Great comments on the XR650L Ted! :thumbup1:
The Honda suspension is quite heavy duty, good 43mm forks ... but it's not exactly plush. Some riders have had front and back re-valved for plushness. Worth it if going off road. Original XR650L was set up as a sort of high speed Desert racer, not great on tight, slow, technical trails. So the suspension mods help if this is your planned use.

The bike is VERY TALL ... like KTM 640 tall ... mine was hard for me at 5'6". When you add big tank (Acerbis, IMS or Safari) it can feel top heavy for a short rider. Wide Pegs are a nice addition.

In Northern EU overheating not a problem, but as you say, in truly HOT conditions it can be an issue. IMO, the key is using really good synthetic oil.
An Oil Cooler would be on my list. Cranking in hard in deep sand, you MUST let it cool down once in a while. Also, some add extended cooling fins to help cooling.

High speed riding keep an eye on oil level ... will naturally drop a bit. No big deal. Check it at fuel stops. Don't over fill it ... many do this.

The oil checking routine on the Honda is weird, many get it wrong. Engine must be 100% hot to get an accurate reading. All XL's, XR's and the XR-L have this issue with the oil in frame set up.

One thing not mentioned is battery box and how it's hung off the left side panel of the bike. Most electronics here as well. In rough riding I've seen them BREAK OFF, and left hanging. Not good. Baja Designs used to make a kit to strengthen the box, no longer. So, figure a way to make it stronger.

Everything else is Honda quality, good electrics/charging, DID Alu wheels,
Nissin brakes.

Sorry guys I love my 34L xt600 Tenere as standard it has the 30L tank and a small oil cooler, the seat is shorter with extra padding for long days in the seat, the luggage space is bigger with having shorter seat, the hight is perfect for 5.6 and its three times cheaper than the xr650, the xt you can travel the world straight out of the tin with the xr650 you have to make mods that cost as much as a nice Tenere.

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