Honda AT vs KTM 990 adventure
 

Anyone wants to share his or hers experience on the weak and strong points of the KTM 990 (or 950)?

Deciding whether to take my trusted but rather dated '93 Africa Twin or buying the KTM. Will be doing at least 3 months in either SA or cross Asia (Russia/Mongolia). Will be substantial parts off road.

My $0.02: If you're doing a lot of off road, keep it light, sell the AT and buy something no bigger than a 650 single, preferably even smaller cc's than that.

Big bikes are fine for 2 up long distance but quickly become a huge pain in the ass in loose sand/mud etc.

IMO, the KTM is better in every aspect (engine, suspension, brakes etc...) but the reliability. If you plan to go to isolated places, reliability may come on the top of the list. So I would keep the AT and maybe upgrade the suspension and make a big tune-up on it.

My 0.02$

Now, I know KTM aficionados may argue that their Adventure is extremely reliable and so on, but whatever is the brand, a modern bike is much more difficult to fix on roadside than old one.

Mike and Fred, thanks for your replies.

The AT is indeed heavy but I think I will give it a solid upgrade and use that. The main elements of the bike are still really good, although I must admit that the frequency of minor issues is increasing.

I still aim to get the KTM 990 for driving around at home though. Bit of a paradox that the thing looks so rough but is not really suited for remote off road. IMO it is still better suited than the BMW GS, and don't really understand why anyone would take that off the road.

Someone should tell these guys quick before the hurt themselves!

www.The-Great-Adventure.fr in Salta, Argentina on Vimeo

I also found my AT would run on almost anything, not sure of the KTM would be so happy...

Not really off road, that's just crap roads. Any old bike will do though and the AT will be fine, I've done big trips on big bikes and smaller bikes and given the choice, I'd do it all again on a light bike. We just had Austin Vince in town giving a couple of presentations at the weekend, he'll be on a Serrow 250 for his next trip!

I think video 5 highlights the problem with bigger bikes. never impossible, but tiring if you're riding solo on remote trails.

Doesn't even need to be remote, just watched a cop drop his Pan European this afternoon on Queen St / Hanover St and couldn't pick it up so had to get help from passers by.

Sorry guys I thought this was a thread about sharing experiences of the KTM 950/990. As I've owned one for 5 years and travelled a to a few places I thought I had a good idea about the merits of the bike, didn't realise I was surrounded by so many experts.

Same old same old.

Anyway, it's good that you saw the video, at least you know what one looks like now.....

exactly, there's nothing unique about them... all big bikes have their off-road limitations, all small bikes have their on-road limitations. take your pick. colour is irrelevant.

KTM 950 excellent bike, owned one for 5 years done about 40 odd thousand much of it two up on all kinds of terrain. Never let me down when I was away. Build quality excellent, reliability excellent,ride quality excellent and for two up riding its excellent. The downside are its a bit labour intensive for servicing and to maintain (roadside problem solving and repairs are a bugger due to poor access to the engine and main running parts), parts are expensive and can be a problem to obtain and its quite a handful when the going gets challenging more so when loaded up heavy.(like most big bikes) - my r80gs is easier to ride in all the above conditions - far simpler to work on or maintain, but is slower and not as much fun as a riders bike. Like Dougie said take your pick it what your happy with at the end of the day and live with the downsides - they all have up and downsides.

Thanks Jake, that is really useful to hear. Exactly what I was looking for.

When I see posts like this I smell the reek of cognitive dissonance. I have not owned a KTM but my brother has. Reliability is a major problem, his was in the garage being repaired for two thirds of the time he owned it. We chatted to the engineers and they admitted that these bikes are no end of trouble.
While owning my old BMW F800gs I was approached by three 990 owners who all said to me they wanted a bike like mine due to the weight and poor fuel economy of the KTM. For the record, I wouldn't take the BMW either, that turned out to not be as reliable as I had hoped. Getting a smaller bike is good advice. Better advice is sticking to a bike you already trust and know well.

Its a shame you have had such bad experience of the KTMs that you know about. I know of three including my own that have done over 50000 miles of all year round use in british winters, been used for trips into remote areas two of the bikes to hot sandy dusty conditions my own to arctic and Russia all three of these bike have been very reliable with a few minor faults. All the
bikes are early 2003 950s so maybe the first were built better - or maybe the maintenance on the ones you know about has not been up to standard - but I can only speak of my own experience and the bike was simply excellent but expensive in time and parts to maintain. One other bike I know of with 40000 miles a 950S the original very tall model owned by a mate from new is about to come up for sale - and it also has been very reliable.

ditto

Even if yours has been good and my brothers was bad this is still only two machines and at best, anecdotal evidence. Chatting with the engineers working at a KTM dealership put me off from ever buying one and my brother quickly got rid to buy a Jap 650. Not as quick but it never did let him down. The common consensus is that KTM are riders bikes, great engines, great frames but what lets them down is they're designed to perform, not with maintenance and durability in mind. This is a major problem to me when you're considering an adventure machine. The fuel consumption is also a black mark. It cuts range down considerably and increases weight over a 650.
Ok, it has a bit more power but it's only useful at higher speeds, illegal in most countries except on motorways and it's not the kind of bike built for those roads and is not being bought for that purpose.
The 650 class bikes, (ideally singles for simpler maintenance, durability, weight, range and torque) are more useful all-rounders and come into their own when the road surfaces turn into fire-roads or trails.
I've had them all ad can say my current 650 is the only one I would trust to go travelling on.

JTW000, I aint arguing - your right a 600 makes much more sense some would say a 125 makes more sense (Birdy for instance) as it happens I actually prefer the Bilge pump (my r80gs) she is simpler in every respect and she is well sorted and we have done quite a bit of touring to far off places and I would not hesitate to set off anywhere again on her at the drop of a hat, she is easier to ride, more comfy for my wife, and for me the one I would choose to go away on - but that does not take away the experience I had when I toured on the ktm to various places - the bike and the experience of riding her was overall - very good. At the end of the day it really does not matter I suppose - if Groot want a KTM and takes one then he will build his own experience and that may be great or terrible - but it will be his experience. All part of life's little ups and downs.

You'll no doubt have noticed not many KTM twin owners tend to hang out here, which is a shame but understandable even considering the posts in this thread alone.

For anyone considering these bikes, there is lots of information, good and bad in the Orange Crush forum on Adventure Rider Motorcycle Forum. You don't need to have a KTM to ask questions, if fact you don't even need to have a brother who had one.

really, is there any need to go into a huff about it ? maybe tell the guy about your own travel experiences on your 950 or 990 (that's what he's asking for), rather than just complain about what's being said but offering nothing of real value.

Thank you for your kind words. There is, no huff, I thought my post was funny - ah well I'll be on my bike...just hope it doesn't fall apart when I get on it, or even worse, fall over...cos it's so heavy I'll never be able to pick it again...

+1
BTW, welcome to the HUBB :D

The way I see the bike of choice needs two main qualities.

Fuel range, and weight.
However the single and most important requirement, far outweighs all others, is "reliability and ease of repair"
All these big bikes are more than powerful enough, so I have discounted power.

From the probably the three most popular bikes mentioned, here they are.
BMW F800GS
KTM 990
Africa Twin 750.

All details taken from MCN.

2008 BMW F800GS Specifications
Top speed
130mph
1/4-mile acceleration
secs
Power
85bhp
Torque
60ftlb
Weight
185kg
Seat height
880mm
Fuel capacity
16 litres
Average fuel consumption
45mpg
Tank range
140 miles
Insurance group
12
Engine size
798cc
Engine specification
8v parallel twin, 6 gears
Frame
Tubular steel
Front suspension adjustment
45mm inverted forks, no adjust
Rear suspension adjustment
Single shock, preload and rebound damping adjust
Front brakes
2 x 300mm discs
Rear brake
265mm disc
Front tyre size
90/90 x 21
Rear tyre size
150/70 x 21





KTM 990 Adventurer Specifications
Top speed
140mph
1/4-mile acceleration
11.03 secs
Power
115bhp
Torque
71ftlb
Weight
196kg
Seat height
855mm
Fuel capacity
19 litres
Average fuel consumption
48mpg
Tank range
150 miles
Insurance group
17
Engine size
999cc
Engine specification
8 valve, 75 degree V-twin
Frame
Steel trellis
Front suspension adjustment
Fully adjustable
Rear suspension adjustment
Fully adjustable
Front brakes
2 x 305mm discs
Rear brake

Front tyre size
120/70 17in
Rear tyre size
180/55 17in





Last model 2003 Aftica Twin Specifications
Top speed
110mph
1/4-mile acceleration
13.9 secs
Power
61bhp
Torque
46ftlb
Weight
202kg
Seat height
860mm
Fuel capacity
23 litres
Average fuel consumption
38mpg
Tank range
190 miles
Insurance group
12
Engine size
742cc
Engine specification
6v V-twin, 5 gears
Frame
Steel perimeter
Front suspension adjustment
Preload
Rear suspension adjustment
Preload, compression
Front brakes
Twin 276mm discs
Rear brake
256mm disc
Front tyre size
90/90 x 21
Rear tyre size
140/80 x 17




The Africa Twin is 10 years older than the other 2 bikes, and as such I believe will be far easier to fix.
The Africa Twin, gives far greater driving range that any of the others.
However the Africa Twin, because it is older, is also a little heavier.
BMW = 185 kg
KTM = 196 kg
AT = 202 kg

In the big picture, the Africa Twin isn't that much heavier.

In view of all the information, there is but just one sensible choice, and that gents, is the Africa Twin.

'vette

given the choice of those 3 bikes, I would probably have taken the KTM myself.

Personal Insults Deleted...

Now I like the R80gs. I like that a lot and would have gone that way except for a couple of factors. One, they're insanely expensive now, presumably because of their excellent reputation for reliably, durability and simplicity. Secondly, if I was to get one I would face a major overhaul of bearings and gear to prove it (purely to myself) and third it's just old tech. Not that I think that old tech is worse, far from it it's just that my modern 650 single gives the same power with a far lighter overall weight and similar reputation for reliability while giving far better fuel economy. I couldn't justify swapping it in.
I did look into KTM when i was shopping for the right bike. Specs wise I ended up opting for the F800gs which is the absolute perfect adventure bike... until you own one. Then the flaws start to show up, the forums are now full of the minor faults and major ones too. Crying shame, it had so much potential. To ride, the KTM is a good bet but I don't think I could ever trust it. I'm heading a long way from home and every modification i make to my bike is in the order of having one less thing to worry about. I've ended up going for a bike with major design drawbacks but a solid reputation. A year into owning it and it's proved to be very durable and I'd be stupid now to change it.

PS... MCN details are not very accurate. The F800gs delivered and average of 65mpg around town and the 880mm seat height doesn't include the fact that after riding 50 miles you feel like you've got pure evil nailed to your arse with rusty tent-pegs. Also the power delivery is odd so the BHP figures don't feel accurate.

ktm
 

just my 2 cents on ktm reliability:

I have 70.000 km on a ktm 990 2006, never had any major issues (just the clutch slave cylinder replaced and main relay that burned) services (yeah quite expensive) always done on time and regularly.

if you check this guys they left for a trip around the world: ktm 990 more than 100.000 km (62000 miles) with no problems (they list all the spares and services done, look yourelf)

http://www.ride-the-world.net/wordpress/?page_id=14〈=en


Ktm 950 and 990 have few well known (all minor) issues. if you know them you can leave for a round the world trip 100% assured that you will come back.

Have a look to the last 10 years Paris-Dakar all won by Ktm and count how many Bmw's are there ( the number approaches zero), experience in raids definitely goes also in production bikes (and Meoni probably the greatest driver ever was riding a ktm 950 in paris-dakar).

Data reported from MCN is definitely wrong, a ktm has a 21 inches front wheel (90/90/21) and a 18 inches rear (150/70/18)

i definitely agree that are heavy bikes even more with panniers and some farkles but the only alternative IMO is a mono.

Like you I cant help doing stuff to the GS - mine it now weighs in at less than 185kgs, has 43litre tank so massive range, puts out 65hp at crank (54 at back wheel and Torque at the back wheel of 72nm from just over 2000 revs and stays at that to over 6000, loads of other mods and front and rear suspension upgrades puts it up there with many modern bikes and averages 51mpg but I have had well over 60mpg on leisurely long runs on tarmac (55mph steady) and its better than almost any single two up which is important to me. Oh and when i bought mine she was about £2400, I have spent about £4,500 on her over the years to get her to where she is now and she has also covered near to 100,000 mile ( complete engine rebuild upgrade and modification in last year was Large amount of that money - still a lot cheaper than a new or replacement bike.)

That's great but again, anecdotal evidence. Of the people I have spoken to and the articles I have read I don't trust KTM and had to rule them out as a reliable travel machine.
The Dakar is a lousy test of a bike these days. The backup crew, the modifications to the machine make it all about who is throwing the most money in a pot. I read an article about a man entering without a backup crew, just one man, a bike and a toolkit, not that was a good test of a bike and a man.
As I said before, KTM make great competition machines, that's what they build but they don't transfer well to adventure touring because to KTM reliability, maintenance, economy and durability are secondary concerns to performance. Nothing wrong with that at all but it does mean they don't suit me.

@adventure950
That's great, a lot of gains in power. I have a 650 single for my trip this year but a change in circumstances means my partner is tagging along through a trip around europe so now I'm a bit torn and wish I had a reliable boxer. I love the boxer, it rides like a big single, loads of torque and puts all the bits you need to work on exactly where they should be. Sadly the modern ones are overstuffed with toys that break down so the ones like yours are the ones to have. Of course now I've committed to this bike so we have to make the best of it. I would prefer to be on a bigger machine, the R1100gs still calls me. That's a lot of cash to spend on upgrades but I know what you mean. I got my single for £3200 but it's selling for about £2500 now and I've spent that again on bolted on goodies and still she wants more. Bloody bikes. Mine still has a lousy 9.5 litre tank and a 5l auxiliary so my range is poor. I get 200 miles plus reserve.

Appreciate all the input on this.

As expected some very different opinions but all in all it seems the majority of KTM users themselves are convinced it is suited for a long trip, despite the shorter service intervals and maintenance issues that are often referred to.

Next topic might be KTM 990 vs BMW 800 GS (also referred to above) but no doubt there is information on that elsewhere on here.

Hey Groot,

Despite the under representation of KTM riders on this forum (still a great mystery to me), you do see a lot of them out long distance touring. In particular in Africa where they were the most commonly occuring big bike make that I ran across during the time I was there. I don't own one, but based on all the bikes I saw and riders I met, I wouldn't hesitate to take it for a trip that you describe.

I have an F800 and also wouldn't hesitate to recommend it for your trip.

Your AT is perfectly fine though, not sure how much you would gain by switching to something else. Only reason that would make me think about updating would be if way too many little things were starting to fail due to the overall age of the bike or it having lived a rough life.

Happy riding.

Here are my 2cents.

I'm currently on a 3 years world tour with my 990 Adventure.

Recently I wrote an article about the 100.000kms service I did in Chile on my bike. I listed all the problems I had during these 100.000kms, the pros and cons of the bike in my opinion, etc.

Maybe it could help you making your choice :thumbup1:

100.000kms on an Adventure

And here is the maintenance I did on my bike since I left :

The bike

Aurel - excellent and at last some proof of how good these bikes are to all the doubters.
will read through the rest of your blog soon. Tchus Jake.

Groot bye the way my BMW is not a 800 gs - it an old airhead r80gs.

like the KTM990 for 2 up, but maybe not for single.
 

Have been taking my 990 on several trips into the Baja and copper canyon in Northern Mexico and performs way better than e.g. a GS. Ride 2 up with HB bags and found handling on rough off-road to be really good due to good motor and suspension. Planning South America and indeed worried about parts and maintenance in remote areas and planning to buy something a little smaller and more maintenance friendly. Would love to get my hands on an AT. Good luck.

Nice article Aurel.

I think the big 950/990s suffer due to imagined burden of the heavy maintenance schedules and reliability issues of earlier KTM designed engines ... worth remembering then that the LC8 was designed by a Rotax engineer that KTM pinched specifically to design their V-Twin - which is why is has more durable DOHC instead of the usual KTM rockers that wear out valve guides at a rapid rate of knots.

Personally I love that engine ...

Just a note ... the 990 Adventure never won a Dakar! bier

Why don't you spend some time test riding the other bikes you are considering. Then make the decision based on which one tuns your crank.

Forget all the rant that seems to be so common when doing the "this bike vs. that bike"

Opinions are like a-holes. Everybody has one!

Enjoy whatever bike you decide to own!!!:taz:

Heres a 950 being ridden - well - hard and hooligan mad but just shows what they can do in the right hands - shame its not me but we can all dream of skill like this !!! YouTube - ‪950 hooligan ride‬‏

Not sure if I believe that, the OC riders on advrider.com are getting more like:

* KTM 35mpg (US) (200 mile tank range for 22L tank); whilst the,
* BMW 50mpg (US) (200 mile tank range for 16L tank).

The BMW is much more economical for not much less powerful.

Having said that I'm still considering the KTM over the BMW (fuel, maintenance and cost notwithstanding) for everyday duties (including the odd trip). 'Rotax' 990 V2 in a motocross frame - damn that is one sexy bike.

If I was contemplating a RTW - reliability, simplicity, cost become very important factors . . . . and than it is really hard to look past a DR650 et al - just not as much fun to ride.

Dont sell short the more interesting bikes.

Who said "Fun to ride" should not be part of the equation?

Why cant a bike be lightweight, and fun to ride for a RTW bike?

Whats wrong with thinking "no KLR and no DR ... too boring"?

Whats wrong with spending a little more and building up a modern lightweight, performance big single like a 690, and actually have fun riding it, rather than just using a bike as a deadbeat mule to simply transport you and your gear?

For me, "fun to ride" and "excellent handling" are now essential parts of a RTW bike. And simplicity is overrated.

Well said - for me 'fun to ride' has to be number one, even if it means every other day is spent sitting in the dirt with a spanner in your hand (before I offend any KTM owners I am talking about Cagiva reliability there....)

These 'which bike' threads always seem to get someones back up. I might start a thread on 'who's wife/girlfriend to take RTW'

Completely agree, not selling short "interesting bikes" at all - my current choice of poison is the KTM after looking long and hard at the XT660Z which is probably a far more 'sensible' choice . . . but just does not excite me as much. I figure if I am going to ride, I want to really enjoy the riding as well as the trip.

In my case, I am highly unlikely to tackle a RTW any time soon, so my choice of bike only has to be able to handle everyday local duties, the odd bit of dirt bike fun and the occasional trip. For this the heart rules the head and the KTM 990 is perfect.

But, if I was to do a really hard core RTW, fear and pragmatism would prevail and the DR/KLR/XT Suzikawahas start looking really good.

I guess you could do a trip on any bike; I really admire Sjaak Lucassen's (of RTW on an R1 fame) philosophy of going with the heart - choose the bike you love and enjoy the ride.

However, judging by the zillions of posts, the "which bike" dilemma is one that seems to vex us all! So to misquote a 'advrider' "bike opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one".

Apologies to the OP for hijacking his thread.

I'm putting the wheels in motion for a full RTW and pragmatism has gone right out the window for some reason! I wanted a)an old British bike or b)something good off-road so am trying to have mu cake and eat it by building a bike with a Metisse frame and a Triumph TR6 engine.....


Getting a bit off topic so to reply to the original post - Africa Twin!

Fun
 

Thanks Walter

we had an AfricaTwin 650 and a KLR 650, both bikes worked well and did the job in North- and Southamerica, but ....

our new KTM 690`s are real fun and their capability offroading incl. luggage ist just amazing. In the evening you stop and have a grin in your face !
The engine almost explodes at 4000rpm and the acceleration is sometimes scary, hahaha :D:mchappy: :clap:

I love it ....

Thomas

www.miles-to-ride.com