DR650 vs Rally Raid CB500x
 

I'll be in the market for a new bike soon, and I've more-or-less narrowed it down to two options: The Suzuki DR650 and the Honda CB500x with Rally Raid kit.

I've been around bikes for a while, and I've done a lot of reading, so I'm pretty knowledgeable about both (and other) bikes, but I've found it always helps to get some perspective from others.

About ten years ago, I took a three-month trip through Mexico and Central America on a 2005 V-Strom that was pretty much stock. The bike did great. I considered it to be about the perfect bike for me on the trip. I did hit a few gnarly roads that I had to go slow on, but outside of a couple of places like that, the V-Strom was just right.

I sold the V-Strom a few years ago and moved to Colorado, just outside Denver. It's time to get a new bike.

I do a ton of mixed riding and I put a lot of miles on my bikes. When I sold the V-Strom, it had 135,000 miles on it after about seven years of ownership and it never needed anything other than normal maintenance. My biggest complaint about the V-Strom was the low ground clearance and weight.

I'm not an adrenaline junkie, nor do I typically do long days in the saddle. My average touring mileage is about 225-250 miles per day, though a 500-mile day is not unheard of. I enjoy paved roads, gravel roads, and even some unimproved dirt roads, though I've never been a true dual-sport rider.

In the next couple of years, I'd like to head back south, through Mexico, Central America, maybe cross over to South America, and then beyond that, who knows? My next bike will almost certainly be the bike that I do that on.

I've always been a fan of the DR650, though I've never actually ridden one. My biggest concern right now is longevity. From what I've read, I should expect the single-cylinder engine to go about 75-80,000 miles before I'll need some major work. I don't like the idea of that. I'd really like to get something that can go well over 100,000 miles without blinking.

As for the CB500x, I have not ridden that either, but it looks like an amazing setup, but compared to the DR650, it's 50-60 lbs heavier and therefore a bit more of a handful off-pavement. I prefer lighter bikes. I have no worries that the Honda would take me probably 200,000 miles and it would probably be more comfortable in everyday riding.

So... what do you think? What bike would you like to have in and around Colorado, and eventually to the end of the earth?

Jamie

Hi Jamie,

Maybe you need to answer what kind of experience are you looking for?
Is having a bike that can do 100 000miles more important than living what you want to live?

I know which one I would pick. The one that is easier to push around, climb stairs, put on a small boat, ride in the mud and sand, ... My needs may be different than yours.

Patrick

I have owned one Dr which I toured 12 k kms around New Zealand on. I also ridden a Dr around 5 k kms in Bolivia. The Cb500x I have rented in Thailand and I did around 2500 kms on it, it was the standard version, not the RR.

The Dr are by many considered the best travel bike ever. Its lightweight (under 150 kilos dry) its almost bulletproof and very well suited as a travel bike. However it does need many mods to get its potential out, such as a bigger fuel tank, suspension upgrade, seat upgrade, etc etc. It will not do anything great but it will do all reasonably well.

The Cb500x - is also a good bike for what it is. Its a Honda and by that almost bulletproof, it has amazing fuel consumption, and with the RR kit its probably halfdecent on gravel roads. But with the RR kit its not cheap anymore. Its also quite heavy for what it is. I only found the wet weight for it right now which is 195 kilos, so probably around 180 kilos dry. And that is more than 30 kilos more than the Dr. And when going off tarmac we all know the 3 most important things is weight, weight and weight. So with that in mind the Dr would definetively be better off tarmac. But on tarmac the 500X would be the better imo.

So it comes down to what priorities you have, will you spend much time off tarmac? Or on tarmac? What other things are important for you? Fuel milage and costs?
You probably wont go wrong with any of those bikes, its just a matter of what prioities you have and what features that you find important in a travel bike.

Its really down to personal preference, I nearly bought a V Strom 650 for our South America trip and 2 up it would have been a much better bike than the DR650 we rode, but now using the DR solo for Canadian back country trips is way more fun than a V Strom. If you are riding unsealed roads its a great bike. The DR also crashes well, I have dropped and crashed mine more times than a hot potato - no fairings or expensive plastics, simple CV carb and it has a huge following in North America with lots of aftermarket parts. However, they do need a lot of aftermarket parts and upgrades to get them decent to ride, namely suspension work, seat, bigger tank etc.

The CB500X has a lower seat height and carries its weight well, it is also a lot smoother with the extra pot and EFI - better on the highway with a 6 speed gearbox and it has ABS, with a Rally Raid kit they will go 90% of where a DR will go. As Snakeboy says, the full RR kit is bloody expensive, almost the price of a used DR650!

Id suggest taking them both for a test ride - fin a Suzuki and Honda dealer event where they do test rides - or better still find someone locally with a modified DR and even a CB500X

Just to throw a spanner in the works:oops2:, it might be worth waiting to see what ktm do with the 390 adventure, if they get the weight right the engine has similar power to what your looking at and is very good mpg too.:scooter:

If you arent going to ride in North America, a DR650 will do great.

I you are going to ride a lot and rack up 135k miles again, consider another DL650 or a CB500 rally Raid like you saidé The CB will cot a lot more than a good used DL650.

I traveled two up on the wee strom in South America for 9 months and the bike did pretty well despite the obvious shortcomings.



BTW: it's for sale in Colombia. Do you want it? :Beach:

So ... like you I live in CO - opposite side on the Western Slope - lots of mixed riding here as well - and as others have said - personal preference and riding style will dictate your choice ... keep in mind I ride solo in remote areas in the West regularly - no easy help / cell service, etc. and a conservative and intermediate level of skill off road / typically ride loaded with light weight camping gear in travel style ... here's my take

1. Currently have a DL650 - Awesome Road and gravel road bike solo and 2 up - as you've experienced - dangerous for anything challenging off road for my skill level and areas of back-country / available help, level of confidence - no fun to pick up off road - but bike is well set up to crash - loaded for travel with top box and soft panniers ... around 535-545#

2. Had a DR650 - DR was ok solo - better road than off road for me due to skill and the weight - although have to say and have seen this bike to be very capable off road in the right hands - just not mine - limped my way through the White Rim Trail in Moab loaded up a few years back, SAND kills my confidence even after several trainings ... cramped 2 up and not used this way very often by me - had all the usual mods to make it dirt worthy/ travel ready and "crash-able" - still a bear to pick up when napping, especially when loaded for travel - rear rack (no top box) and soft panniers - about 405-410#

3. Had a KLX250 - under powered for altitude - but easy off road and easy to pick up ... you are a slow moving target on the road with the 75 mph zones out by me - fully loaded up for bike camping and travel - topped out @ 65mph jetted and piped ... around 325-335#

4. And the winner for solo riding / travel / and off road ... my other bike ... a lightly used / lowered 2007 DRZ400S - not as good for long highway slogs as my DL650 the DR650 or your CBX RR choice; not as light or easy to pick up as my previous KLX250 off road - but easier by far than either of your choices - a whopping 46# lighter than the DR650 - your CBX RR splits between your old DL and the DR ... DRZ, fully loaded w/ bike camping and travel gear - soft panniers and rear duffel... around 340-355#.

For Me - the DRZ is good enough for a steady hour or 3 to safely travel on the posted 75 mph highway around me to get to dirt or gravel - it is buzzy at this speed, but manageable and I accept it - and - for my style of solo riding in often remote areas - a goldilocks between my DL650, my old DR650 and KLX250. Jenny @ Rally Raid makes the CBX RR look easy in all the "Hard" places I ride - as do others on their DR650's - that wouldn't be me ...

Overall Cost to achieve your mileage goal I think would be fairly equal - though it would be 1 CBX RR package or 2 fully done DR650's or DRZ400's for similar distance.

Gauge your Confidence, Skill and Where you want to go - pick the bike that covers the aspect of holding that confidence in the least desirable circumstances for your skill and is the least objectionable in it's area of weakness for where you want to go ...

Best

Thanks Patrick,

I guess that's the question I'm trying to ask. I'm looking for a bike that will do good on the canyon roads around my house, the odd forest road here and there, and can also get across the extreme mountain passes.

And in the next couple of years I've been tossing around the idea of heading south as far as I can go.

So what kind of experience am I looking for? I'm looking for a bike that will safely, comfortably, and reliably do those things.

I don't purposely seek out single-track or other off-road adventures... but sometimes I come across a track I want to go down, so you never know.

For the moment, purchase price and fuel costs aren't terribly important. I've been saving up for a new bike for a little while now, and even the DR650 gets decent fuel mileage.

It's a good idea to test ride each of them.

And I like the idea of a bike that crashes well. I did drop my V-Strom a few times, and fortunately never suffered any major damage, but I've read about many simple drops that destroyed plastic. That's a big factor.

I just can't imagine a KTM will fit my needs.

I'm not impressed by power specs.

I'm much more interested in long-term reliability, and though my experience with KTM is limited, my understanding is that KTM does not stand for long-term reliability.

Ha! I wish.

Glad to hear the V-Strom did so well in Latin America. It was originally the bike I was planning to buy again until I started expanding my search.

Jamie

Hey Outwest,

Thanks for the response. It sounds like you and I have very similar riding tastes and abilities, and you bring up a good point. Almost all of my riding is solo, and I've watched a few YouTube videos of guys riding over some Colorado passes, and that gives me some pause. I'd hate to get in a situation that I needed help.

Actually, the DRZ was a big part of my interest in the DR650, and also my concern.

A few years ago, I had a friend/acquaintance with a DRZ400 who took some epic multi-month trip around North America. I really admired her bike; really got me interested in something like that.

But I noticed that she kept having problems with the bike. It seemed like it was breaking down every week. And then she had to have it in the shop for some major work at one point.

I asked her about it, and she responded with something to the effect of, "Well, it has 40,000 miles on it. Of course it's going to need some work."

...and that was kind of the deal-breaker for me. At the time, my V-Strom had nearly 100,000 miles on it, and it had never needed anything other than brake pads and oil changes. I would eventually put 40,000 more miles on that bike, again without anything but regular maintenance, before selling it. As far as I know, it's still on the road.

I realize her bike is just one example, and to her, the bike was still perfect for what she wanted, but I guess I got so used to the utter reliability of the big twin that the thought of a bike that needs an overhaul so "soon" turns me off.

It's hard for me to judge my own abilities... I feel pretty confident on a bike, and when I had my V-Strom, I took it in a lot of places where I was probably in over my head. Nothing dangerous, but just a lot of work. But I almost always made it.

I recall on my trip through Mexico, I met up with a rider on a KLR. We went up a rutted, gravel mountain road with tight switchbacks. On the way back down, the KLR guy said he was going to go on ahead because it was getting dark and his headlight was terrible. He wanted to get down to the bottom before dark. So he took off. I followed right behind him all the way down, and when we got to the bottom, he expressed shock that I was able to keep up with him on my "big" bike.

That said, I've never owned a real dual-sport.

In another incident, I led a group of riders on an afternoon ride through some moderately twisty roads in Tennessee. Several of the guys were on cruisers. One guy was on a sportbike. After lunch, I said to the group that the next section was especially curvy and I was going to pick up the pace a bit, and if they wanted to hang back, we'd all regroup at the next intersection. The sport bike guy was the only one who stayed with me, and when we stopped, he stated that he'd never leaned his bike over so far. :mchappy:

That's not to overstate my riding abilities, but it goes to show the versatility of the V-Strom. I'm kind of looking for the same type of experience.

As Snakeboy said above, I can't go wrong with either bike. But I'm just trying to narrow down the fine details to figure out if one or the other would be better suited for me.

Jamie

Hi Jamie,

The coming Yamaha Tenere 700 seems to be a good candidate for the high speed roads of north america and also your next trip.

If possible, maybe you should allow yourself to have two bikes: one for high speed riding in North America and one just for the trip/offroad riding in Colorado.

I don't know your offroad riding background. Maybe you are very experienced, if not those two years could be used to ramp up your off road riding skills. You can ride most of South America on pavement but it is fun to ride offroad in Bolivia, Brazil,... it's been a while but Pirelli MT21 were very cheap in Bolivia. Cheap way to add more fun!

You have already been to Mexico. So you have an idea of how is the riding over there. Did you enjoy all the "topes"? Even if not riding offroad, the ground clearence of the DR650 is fun to have in order to pass those speed bumps at good speed and passing cars. If you pick the DR650, the key to not feel its weight is to set your susppension properly: at minimum have fork springs of .58kg/mm with race tech gold valves (blue spring, 1 to 2 turns, 15W oil, add an extra bleed hole) Select your rear spring base on your luggage and add a race tech gold valve for more rebound. Also by being lighter, the DR650 gives you more options for hotels since it is easier to move around.

Unless you are planning to ride mud during the rainy season in the Amazon area. There is not much a need to go with a smaller bike for Central and South America.

Also keep in mind that you may not come back from South America with your bike. Why not just select a bike for the trip only?

Patrick

This was my point above in stating that you would be on to the 2nd "next/different" DR/DRZ to get to the mileage you're interested in, having "used up" the first one so to speak, unlike your friend who was fixing a tired bike ...

If this "KLR" type of riding interests you More - get the DR or DRZ and live with the short comings on the road and having to replace the bike with another one to reach your desired 100k+ mileage using this model ...

OR... if this "Sports" type of riding interests you More - get the CBX RR and ... live with the short comings off road but get the desired mileage from the longer lived bike that this seems to be ...


And I agree with Snakeboy - the details are in the type of riding you Most enjoy and whether you're willing to replace a single cylinder bike every 50-60k or just want one, more road oriented twin that will take more abuse and therefore last the distance you ask of it but be more of a handful off road - though arguably better off road than your DL650 in selecting the CBX RR kit - what fun decision you have!
...

Best

2 cents coming in...

There really are no 'shortcomings' with the LEVEL 2 CB500X when it comes to the kind of 'off-road' riding you'd be attempting on a travel bike loaded with luggage - it will eat up everything you're going to be prepared to ride on an overland trip.

Equally, the DR650 is a great dual-sport bike that can also rack up serious mileages on RTW style overland trips - loads of aftermarket support, cheap (especially secondhand) - although you'll have to do quite a number of modification$ to a stock one to get it anywhere near approaching the on-road comfort and high-mile-munching ability of the CB, and it will still never be an EFi twin.

However, if you're also going to ride it unladen, just for fun, then the lighter weight of the DR is going to potentially give you a little extra margin for mistakes off-road, but don't discount the excellent and engine and transmission on the Honda - it makes it very easy and forgiving to ride off-road too.

Both bikes have been around the world, the length of the Americas and Africa too... If I was embarking on a long-distance trip, I would the CB every time. If I wanted to play around off-road and trail-ride at weekends, it would also be the CB - but the DR is great for that too ;o)

As others have suggested - it's probably best to get a ride on both if you can, see how they fit you, and tot-up just how much you'd need to spend on either to get them to the specification you desire for your planned trip... don't forget you can pick up used CB500Xs for around $3000 these days too now (the first ones came out in 2013).

Ultimately I consider that either will serve you well.

Jx

The biggest shortcomings I see with the CB500x is the weight and the bodywork.

My biggest complaint about the V-Strom was the weight. I pack light, but loaded up, it was a bear. I decided when I sold it that I'd probably get something lighter. While the CB is lighter than the V-Strom, it's still pretty heavy.

...and the bodywork. The first time I truly saw a 500x up close was a couple months ago when I hosted a motorcycle traveler who was riding one (in stock form). I was quite surprised at how much plastic was on the bike. One minor drop which lands the wrong way, and that's an expensive or ugly repair.

On the other hand, I've been very impressed with the reviews and videos I've seen of the Rally Raid kit on the 500x. There's no doubt it would suit my needs.

The DR is no lightweight either, I'll admit. But it's quite a bit lighter than the Honda, and from what I can tell, noticeably more off-road worthy. It's not like I'll be riding technical single track on either bike, but rocky jeep trails are in my future for sure, and the bike will certainly be loaded for a few days camping.

The biggest shortcoming of the DR that I can see is long-term durability, and to a limited extent, comfort on a long ride. I consider the carburetor to be a shortcoming too, as I quite often go up over 10,000 feet (3000 m) as well as much lower elevations. Other people say the carb is fine... so maybe that's not a concern.

There's a fairly newish CB500x for sale near me for what I consider a reasonable price. That bike is half the reason I decided to post this thread. It might be a good time to buy.

Outwest, you're absolutely right that this is a wonderful decision to have to make, but I've been debating this in my mind for quite a while. Some days I decide for sure that the right bike for me is the DR, and then the next day something will pop into my head and make me realize that the CB is the perfect bike. Ugh.

I'm tempted to just flip a coin.

Heh.

Thanks for all the ideas everyone. I really need to get on both bikes and see what I think. If I find a stock CB500x to ride, how similar is that to Rally Raid improvements? That is, is it fair to rate the CB500x in stock form if what I'm really after is the Rally Raid model?

Jamie

Hi Jamie - I'm not going to recommend one over the other - both will do what you ask, so it's going to come down to what are your actual priorities?

That said - as you are probably aware, I do have a lot of experience with the CB500X (and the Rally-Raid kit), so can certainly clarify any issue/s you may have with regard to that bike... and no.1 would be your concern with regard to the bodywork vulnerability... honestly, don't be - the bike drops and crashes exceptionally well. You may have already seen the Rubicon Trail video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7jpOMaGnps

...and if you watch the summary after the ride, you'll see none of the panel work was damaged at all, despite some pretty hefty drops on nasty rocks.

Now of course, you might be unlucky, but equally, in my experience, you need not worry - the bike is very narrow, and if you've fitted decent hand-guards (and bars), that tends to take the brunt in the event of a fall, while the tank/fairing body-work remains nicely tucked out of the way.

As for the weight - yes, it is a 200Kg machine, but it is also a very short and compact bike, so all that weight is very much between your knees, and it feels very nimble to ride. It might sound a little facetious, but really - it's only heavy when you have to pick it up - and as I mention above, the tractability and general forgiving nature of the power delivery means you very rarely end up dropping it in the first place...

As for how a stock bike compares to the LEVEL 2 bike (for those not familiar, that is +2" suspension and 17/19" wheels), it really is night and day... The best thing to do is to dip into the Rally-Raid CB500X thread in the Vendor section on ADVrider, as there is loads of information and customer experiences there - but in a nutshell, I'd suggest the LEVEL 2 spec really is the 'sweet spot' for this kind of genuine 50/50 all-terrain bike - in that it feels like a larger [ADV] bike on the highway, but handles more like a 650 thumper on the trails.

Ergonomically they are still similar of course (so if a stock one is comfortable and fits you, so will the RR version), but the quality of the suspension and overall stability and handling is significantly improved - particularly with the extra travel and larger 19" front wheel...

for info. this guy thought so too in a recent video (note. he has a DR650 too!) - he seemed to like it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqCxB9JDSs


I'm confident you won't be disappointed - as you may know, I worked closely with John at Rally-Raid to create exactly the kind of 'adventure' bike around this twin-cylinder platform that we wanted to be just as capable both on and off-road... but equally if what you really are after is a large-capacity dual-sport, then the DR is an excellent and proven choice too.

I may well see you over on the other channel ;o)

Jenny x

Damn you Jenny,

I hadn't seen that video and you make a hell of a case.

What are my actual priorities? I guess that's why I'm here. I want a bike that will safely, comfortably, and reliably get me anywhere in the world I happen to be in.

For a time, it seemed obvious that the DR650 was the best choice.

The very early parts of your video reminded me of a road I took in Guatemala, which was challenging on a V-Strom with street tires. I barely made it. And when I watched your video I thought we were in the same boat until I saw the terrain you were taking that bike over.

You've made my decision even harder. Thanks. doh

Ugh.

Jamie

to be fair the ktm 390 adventure is not out yet so who knows what it will be like, the engine has been around a good while and I've not heard any horror stories but the new cost will probably similar to a used honda with the RR kit.

The Dr is 90's tech as in very old school but it works but the cbx is bang up to date. Jenny has proved how good the honda's can be with the RR kit.

Is there not anyone local to you that could let you try out the honda and the dr for a comparison:mchappy:

Hee hee - I concede that if you watch towards the end, I do say this is not really a trail for a bike like the CB500X, it's more a 250cc dual-sport/enduro/trials trail... but at the same time, I trust it also proves that if it comes to it, you can get a RR CB500X through that sort of terrain as well - without damaging it or yourself as long as you're careful.

And I think that is the crux of discussions like this on the internet - everyone things they need a faster, lighter, higher-performance bike - but that really only [begins to] matter/s in a competitive environment - if you're just trail riding, playing with your buddies, and especailly if you're traveling, then you really are never going to be pushing the envelope of what the bike can actually do - not if you have any sense of self-preservation [and of your bike], and in all cases it comes down to the rider, not the bike.

Of course I'm aware that in general, having something smaller and more nimble feeling is going to help a wider range of riders when off-road - certainly it can be less fatiguing, and/or help you get away with a clumsy mistake more often, and similarly makes it easy for more experienced riders to push their own envelope further (for info. Juan was riding my own XT225 in that video, and that is the bike I tend to take to Moab for messing around on the really technical trails there) - but ultimately, and particularly on this forum which is primarily concerned with longer-distance and multi-day/week/month type overland travel, the requirement for outright 'off-road' supremacy is very much second fiddle to the 'all-round' ability [and general comfort and reliability/low maintenance requirements] of a particular machine.

As I say, the DR650 is a great large-capacity dual-sport - it would certainly be my personal preference over the seemingly ubiquitous KLR - even if it meant having to spend some money to upgrade the suspension, seat and gas tank (and maybe a screen, although personally I don't find those essential) to make it more suitable for longer-distance travel. note. I understand that some people choose to re-lace with a 19" front rim (rather than the stock 21") to help lower the bike a little, improve the on-road manners, and allow a wider range of more adventure/dual-sport tread pattern tyres to be fitted.

Similarly, the KTM690 (or Husky 701) is a wonderful open-class enduro bike, that also happen to come fully street-legal - but they are hard-core and edgy, and very tall - and for most riders, they don't actually need 12" of travel to ride around the world comfortably.

Personally, I was looking for something that would eat up the huge distances you get in North America, while still being manageable on pretty much any trail you'd find on a Garmin map. The nice thing about the RR CB is that it gives you all the refinement of larger twin-cylinder ADV bikes, but is that little bit smaller and lighter, which immediately pays dividends if things do start to get gnarly.

Hope that helps with your confusion!

Jenny x

ps. I apologise for ending up spending much more than 2 cents on this conversation - but trust you consider it was money well spent....

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...wj7t2CS-XL.jpg
photo. You can even get a bit silly if you really want to ;o)

Well, now that Jenny has all but convinced me to go for the Rally Raid CB, does anyone want to convince me that the DR is the bike I should go with?

When I initially sold my V-Strom, I fully intended to replace it with another V-Strom. I really like the second generation.

But after I got out to Colorado, I thought maybe I should get something a little more off-road worthy. I'd always been a fan of the DR650, even though I'd never ridden one. So that's when I decided I'd probably get a DR650.

But then I went to the Overland Expo in Arizona a few years ago and saw the Rally Raid Honda at the Giant Loop tent, and I was amazed.

Then I was in a dilemma. I really think I'd like both bikes...

I have to admit, the Rally Raid kit is quite a bit more expensive than I was expecting, nearly doubling the cost of a used bike... I'm not sure I can swallow that.

Jamie

Based on your descriptions of yourself, you should have noticed by now that all bike choices are temporary, and all can be reversed, revised, or added to. Buy whichever one you want, for whatever reason--just don't get paralyzed by the belief that which you choose will really make much difference. The choice between action and paralysis matters; the choice between a CB and a DR not so much.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Mark

This is a very good point - at the end of the day, a bike is just a tool that will allow you to travel (or just have fun, whatever the reason you have for buying it) - buy one that suits your needs at the time, and if it turns out it doesn't, or your priorities change, then sell it* and buy something different...

*Or if you have the space and finances [and still like it] - just keep it and add to the collection ;o)

Jx

Hi Jamie - ah, this old chestnut ;o)

What you need to look at is the total cost of the bike you want - sure, if you buy a secondhand bike and fit a series of brand new high-quality/high-performing parts to it you may well be essentially doubling the original price of the bike - but that is because you were starting out with a more affordable platform in the first place - and in the case of the CB with the Rally-Raid kit, you're still only looking at the price of a brand new bog-stock KLR.

Ultimately if you want high-quality suspension and wheels on any bike, you're going to have to pay the corresponding price - and if you walk around the parking lot at any Horizons Unlimited event [for example] there are certainly plenty of people who have sunk at least $2000+ into modifying and personalising their bikes to improve them for overland travel - it really is the nature of the discipline.

As you've ascertained, I imagine either bike is going to serve you well for the proposed use - I'd get a ride on an example of both if you can, then tot-up what it's going to cost to prepare either to the specification that you want, and go from there...

Jx

Please don't minimize the fact that I have been saving for a new bike for several years and that additional costs are hard to swallow.

The fact of the matter is that the Rally Raid kit is more expensive than I remember it being when I first discovered it a couple of years ago. It adds significantly to the cost of the bike and I have no choice but to take that into a purchase decision. I don't doubt that the Rally Raid kit is high quality, but high quality or not, I still have to decide if it's worth it to me.

...and I'm typically not one to go overboard customizing my bike like the people at Horizons Unlimited or other groups. I put 135,000 miles on my V-Strom and it was for all intents and purposes, almost entirely bone stock. Sure, I rebuilt the forks once or twice just as a matter of course, but I used the same factory parts. I had the stock rear shock rebuilt, again, because it was worn out. I installed engine guards, skid plate, luggage, and a more comfortable seat, but outside of that, it was as I bought it, and it did everything I asked of it.

I don't need to customize my bike because a bunch of other people who get together now and then choose to do so.

Jamie

for intended purpose I would go with DRZ no question asked.
There is nothing to compare between those two, apples and oranges.

I'd love to go with a smaller bike, but from my research, there isn't a 400cc or smaller bike that will reliably go well over 100,000 miles. That's pretty important to me. Part of the intended purpose is that I'll put 20-30,000 miles on per year.

I'm sure they're great bikes, but I don't want to have to replace the bike or the engine every 18 months.

Jamie

drz 400 ? but why to go so small, 600-700cc is pretty much universal and here you have a lot good bikes.

Weight.

In most of the world, 125 and 250 bikes are the norm. I'd much prefer to ride one of those, but I also want a bike that has very good long-term reliability.

It's too bad so many people think a 400cc bike is small, because if they were more mainstream, I'm sure something in that size would better fit what I'm looking for.

So it's a compromise either way.

Jamie

How about a choice you haven't mentioned just to confuse things Jamie?

*you said your VStrom 650 was great except for Primarily the Weight and Ground clearance ... and of course - money matters for making this happen without having to add too much in accessories to the bike to make it worthy of your goals ... so ...

*what if you looked at a bike that weighs 100 lbs less than your 05' Strom - 385 lbs vs 485 lbs - no aftermarket fuel tank needed - significant!!

*Stock - it has nearly 3/4 of an inch more ground clearance than your 05' Strom (stock is 7.1" v 05' Strom 6.4"), possibly more ground clearance available with an off roadish tire vs stock tire say gets you to an inch - 7.4" overall -significant - ish:) - though I will mention that suspension travel is down to your VStrom @ .85" less average front to rear - have to mind your speed a bit to maintain the extra clearance of this bike ...

*NEW - at RETAIL is $5399-$5699 -that's $1,000 to $1,300 dollars cheaper than the DR650S or CB500X stock versions (not the RR version) and you can find deals on end of year models or lightly used versions I'm sure ...

*is available with abs or not depending on your preference and how much you off road

*has good after market support for accessories for crashing, skid plates, hand guards, factory luggage, etc...

* and will go the distance you require for longevity - anecdotal evidence of 100000km on the same engine in this bike ...

and here you go ...

The Specs

https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/20...AV-_-LEARNMORE

And a few reviews - first one has good comparison and longish video with info related seemingly to your dilemma - how much road / off road is in YOUR mix

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocia...iew-bikesocial

2018 Kawasaki Versys-X 300: Project Bike Intro - ADV Pulse

And the distance question answered ... - same engine in this bike -

https://kawasaki.com.au/general-kawa...over-100000km/

If I were to ditch my 2015 VStrom and my 2007 DRZ400S - I'd seriously consider this bike - and if it comes out in the 400 motor they put in the Ninja at a similar weight - I can almost guarantee selling both and making my 2 in to one ... might just go there anyways ...

Not sure how to add photos - but try these ...

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...se-western.jpg

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-view-east.jpg

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...se-western.jpg

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...orado-utah.jpg


Best ... Outwest ... riding

So.... Jamie Z - did you pick a bike yet? Interesting news I saw that may be worth investigating if you're still undecided ...

from another article on the web ...

"At an early morning conference Thursday, Kawasaki announced to its dealers that the venerable KLR has seen its final year of production. The news was broken to Kawasaki dealers prior to the opening the doors of the AIM Expo to the media.

I spoke to a Kawasaki representative who verified that the KLR has indeed been discontinued. Existing inventory will still be available, but production has been halted. The representative said that Kawasaki would continue parts support for the foreseeable future.

When asked if Kawasaki had plans for a KLR replacement, the representative said that he did not have any more information. But he did say that Kawasaki was planning to introduce four new models at EICMA in November. Asked about what kinds of bikes would be included in the four new models, he said he did not have any details and referred me to the Kawasaki website"

https://www.kawasaki.com/

Hmmmm!

outwest ... riding ...

I admit, I have not seen the Versys 300. Intriguing bike.

But as you say, with a life expectancy of +/- 100,000km, that's just not the lifespan I'd like. I'm looking for double or triple that.

Perhaps I'm asking too much. I'm coming from much larger bikes. My first bike was a Honda ST1100 and when I bought it, it had around 50,000 miles on it. I rode it for about 18 months before having a wreck. It had around 80,000 miles on it at that point, if I recall, and I never needed anything at all. Riders regularly got 200,000 miles out of that bike with no trouble.

Same with my V-Strom. I read of several reports of riders getting over 200,000 miles on it. And until I sold mine, I fully intended to do the same.

The Versys is interesting, but I feel it is just too small to have the long-term reliability I'm interested in. I have to find a good compromise.
I'm not interested in the KLR. If I go with a single-cylinder 650, it'll be the DR.

Whether the KLR is discontinued or not doesn't play a role in that decision.

I have not decided on a bike yet. And I'm not in a big hurry.

I did go down to the local Honda shop a few days ago. I'm a Costco member, and they offer discounts on new vehicles, including Honda motorcycles. Unfortunately, I was a bit surprised at the cost of a new CB500X ABS. Even with the discount, the dealer wanted $6750. Add tax in there and it's over $7000. And then add in the Rally Raid, and I'm a good bit over $10,000. Holy crap.

So... I've been perusing used bikes, and I've seen a few in the $4500-$5000 range that are in good shape with low miles. None of those are anywhere near me, though. So I have to be patient and see if I can find one closer to me.

Now that I've really gotten into the meat of making a purchase decision, purchase cost has really bubbled up to the top as a big factor. Initially, I was budgeting around $7000 for a used bike and the Rally Raid. Well... both used bikes and the Rally Raid kit are more expensive than I was initially counting on.

So... I'm still shopping. My needs haven't changed. I'm still leaning toward the CB500X. The DR650 is still on my radar. I just have to see if I can find the right bike for sale.

Jamie

If you find a Cb500 with a RR kit on it already that would save you some cash.

I have ridden on btw: RR equiped CB500X and I liked it.

I'm liking the 2019.

Yep it has certainly got some great improvements for the 2019 model. 19’ front wheel, longer suspension, slightly different tuned engine (more low and midrange power) different bodywork and higher windscreen to give better protection to the rider. And a few other things as well...but it has gained a few kilos too.

https://youtu.be/R0oH1ReNg30

According the spec sheet, it's gained 1Kg.

Jx

Hi Cholo - never ;o)

Personally speaking (and I think I speak for John at Rally-Raid too), we don't feel the V-X300 offers anything significantly different to the CB500X - which has a lot more torque [at much lower revs] and is just such an all-round competent twin cylinder platform. (note. with the 2019 model coming with a 19" front wheel as standard now, it's an even better all-rounder).

Yes the V-X300 is around 20-25Kg lighter than the CB, but similarly John feels the G310GS exploits that similar weight saving more appropriately if you want more of a dual-sport biased ADV bike.

As I say, there is nothing wrong with the V-X300 as such (other than having to wring it to the other side of 10,000rpm to make max power and torque), it's just we both feel the CB does the twin-cylinder thing better, and the GS the trail-bike thing.

As a compromise between the two however, the V-X300 still has a lot to commend it.

Hope that clarifies things!

Jenny x

For the past 3 years my wife and I have been going back and forth between the DR650 and the CB500x too. I think we'll go for the 2019 cb500x stock, just add a skid plate, crash bars, maybe taller windscreen and soft luggage. There are many ride reports on ADV forum of DR650s in South America and Africa. We have enjoyed reading them, such as Mick and Tanya's Earth's Ends, and there was another one involving 3 climbers who climbed mountains riding south from USA. Most of these RRs involve a lot of wrenching on a DR.

Jamie Z i think one consideration which I have not seen you mention in the previous 3 pages is - How comfortable are you wrenching on the bike? For a DR, simple changes in elevation in Peru and Chile could require you to make adjustments to the fuel air ratio. Foul a plug from running too rich and you'll need to change spark plugs. The carb engine requires more work than the more trouble free EFI twin cylinder engine. But all these are not an issue if you are comfortable wrenching the DR. The cb500x helps mechanically noob riders like me. But when the sensors on the FI bike goes, I'll probably be stranded.

In preparation for our trip, my wife and I managed to learn the following on our Yamaha FZ6S over a few years from our mechanic friend- Change tyres, front fork seals, sprockets and chain, spark plugs, wheel bearings, all fluids on the bike. But we can't manage all electrical faults and the engine, so I expect the DR will have more "engine can't start" days, or "engine not running well" days than we know what to do. I know we will not be able to exploit the lighter weight of the DR, much as we would appreciate it, because we are not that kind of rider who's good with working on the carb engines, clutch plates, and electrical faults that are inevitable on a 6 continent, 200000km rtw tour we will soon embark on. I know we will regret it when the going gets too tough for the cb500x, but I also know the DR will leave us stranded probably more often, although its easier to fix at random bike shops in developing countries.

We leave for trip in October 2019. We are 10 months out. Buying the 2019 cb500x in USA and heading Ushuaia over 14 months. Maybe we'll see you on the road. Stay in touch?

I'm kind of on the same wavelength. The 2019 CB500x looks pretty good.

I wouldn't consider myself a mechanic, but I don't mind digging into a problem and figuring it out. I've worked with a handful of carburetors in the past, and I can do other simple maintenance and repairs.

But honestly, that aspect of the DR650 isn't one of my biggest concerns. They're really known to be very reliable and simple to fix.

I do have a preference for fuel injection and multi-cylinder. Those are my biggest draws to the Honda.

Jamie

Jamie Z I have emailed you instead as I just realized I can't reply your pm. I only have 2 posts on HU and need to clock one more. Guess I've been lurker too long.

Its good that you have experience working with carb engines. I think it gives you more choices of bikes to choose from.

Didn't see an email from you. Checked my spam folder and inbox.

I hope I didn't overstate my experience with carburetors. It's not like I could pick one up and fix it. But in the past ten years, I've had a few carbed vehicles (a couple bikes and a boat) that I've played around a bit with the carb. All I'm saying is that if my bike has a carburetor and it breaks, I'll see if I can figure out what's wrong and fix it.

All I'm saying is that having a carburetor doesn't dissuade me from owning any particular bike, even though my preference is for fuel injection.

Jamie

With a carb in South America you need the jets required for running at 13000ft + on the Altiplano, it will make that part of the trip much easier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anything that we have built will fail eventually, but you paint the DR650 as an unreliable machine, and I'm not sure what your actually experience with them has been.

Just to clear up a few points about the DR650: it is a tough and reliable bike.
I have traveled extensively on mine (2 bikes, one with 45,000 miles and the other with 70,000 miles.).

There are very few things that will break on the DR, and there are well known fixes for those things: a couple of screws on the Neutral sending switch that need some locktite and a chain roller that should be removed. The pickup coil is a known issue, but the part is small and easily carried. Other than that, the issues that require a mechanic are few and usually self inflicted. People do have wiring issues caused by their own installation of aftermarket electrical stuff. Carb issues are not uncommon.... when the owner has decided to modify the bike by installing a pumper carb instead of using the stock carb. Yes, you will have to mess with a pumper carb, but not the stock CV carb.

No jetting changes needed with the stock CV carburetor from sea level to 14,500 feet- personal experience. I routinely ride hard dirt passes to nearly 14,000 feet here in Colorado, and have ridden a DR to 14,500 feet; I have ridden many miles at sea level. It will start and run fine at high elevation. Yes the bike will down on power, as all bikes, carb or EFI will be. Occasionally the idle speed may need a small adjustment- easily done with one screw while sitting on the bike.

The DR has left me walking only once in all those miles and that was a pickup coil failure. Other than that, it starts and runs faithfully, in hot temperatures (115* F) and cold (5* F). None of the 'can't start engine' days you refer to.

The clutch plates are good for more than 70,000 miles (my experience) if they are not abused.


Choose whichever bike you like, but the DR650 has earned it's reputation for a reason.

...................shu

I don't think he painted it as an unreliable machine, but the fact of the matter is the Suzukis tend to be "mechanic's bikes" and I do think that's accurate.

I've seen many honda CB500x's and CRF250s doing serious overlanding with owners that have barely even looked at the maintenance schedules and still manage to keep going against all odds. There's a reason for that old joke "'I really wish I had gotten the Suzuki' - said no Honda owner ever"

Suzuki randomly cheaps out on components in its DR/DRZ lines which require preventative maintenance that can be quite intimidating if you're not already mechanically inclined, the actual maintenance schedules tend to not be at all the schedules listed by the manufacturer under hard adventure riding so you need to keep a close eye on things when the miles start piling up, and as mentioned carbs are fiddly, especially when you start adding in bad fuel along with altitude. From what I've seen well taken care of a Suzuki will be lighter and more offroad capable than a Honda while being nearly as reliable and much easier to work on. Poorly maintained under hard conditions, well, you're better off getting the Honda - and I wouldn't underestimate how hard it is to keep something well maintained when you've got a 'new to you bike' in a hut somewhere in the middle of nowhere with a mechanic that doesn't even speak the same language as you and you've got only a dim idea of how carbs work.

Mate, I don't know what you're talking about. Shu gave above 1st hand information, that I'm happy to second. I'm right now in Honduras on my 5th month with the mighty DR and she hasn't missed a beat. She just gets the maintenance as requested by the manufacturer.

I do the service myself so I can give the details:
- every 3000 km I wash the air filter
- every 6000 km I change oil and filter
- every 12000 km I adjust the valves.

The rest is just good sense and daily attention: check chain, brake pads, tires etc.

Honda does make great bikes, so does Suzuki (and we could expand the list with more brands). However the stock DR is a lot more competent in the dirt than the stock CB500X, I tried both on extended trips. And yes conversely the CB is much better on the tarmac.

In the past months I found myself on roads where I was quite happy I had the DR. But we'll, some guys did a world trip on a Harley, so that's really up to you which bike you get.

Last thing to complement Shu: the NSU screws are now loctited at the factory. The carb has the air mixture screw hidden below a cap of bronze - that cap must be removed because the DR is running too lean (I suppose that's how Suzuki managed to have it pass emissions tests). This requires taking off the carb.

I think Hsinclai understands where I'm coming from.

I actually wished I were more mechanically inclined and know how to take apart the carb engine and put it back together, because then i might be confident enough to consider a DR. Carb engines do require tuning, partially or fully rebuilding the engine over a long trip. Thats not a problem for some, but I'm a noob with tools. So its me.

See, I'm the kind of mechanical noob who has never tuned, modified or taken apart a Yamaha FZ6S engine with 235000km on the odometer now. I had the bike for 10 years, buying it since it was 4 years old with 63000km on the clock. My mechanic insists valve clearance checks are a waste of money, and you know what? Turns out he was right and saved me the money. The bike has never done a valve clearance check. It was running perfectly fine two years ago when I decided to send it for an engine rebuild at 190000km to last the last 3 years I needed it for work, which will end in Oct 2019.

My wife rides a similar FZ6s model with 250000km now. We have never touched the engine. No rebuilds, no tuning, no cleaning the injectors, except for the engine rebuild by the dealer 2 years ago. We have been changing our own tyres, all fluids, sprockets and chain, fork seals, wheel bearings and all under my mechanic friend's mentorship. As a result I have never had the opportunity to take apart a carb engine.

I believe the DR will get u through any route in the right hands. I believe what you guys say about it being a reliable bike and taking you to places other bikes can't go. I'm just not that guy who tunes and rebuilds the engine.
When I write my ride report, you will probably see me stranded when a sensor inevitably fails in some place I will need a month to wait for a spare part. I took my chances. I liked the odds.

NoChecking valves is not a waste of time or money.
That said, if I'm correct, the FZ has valves clearance set with shims of a certain thickness, and this kind of technology makes that valve clearance is much more stable in time than with other more traditional screw/counter screw adjustment.
I suppose that's what your mechanic meant.

The drawback with shims is that there's much more work involved if any adjustment is required.
1. You need to go to your dealer and buy (order?) the shim(s) of correct thickness after you measured the clearance.
2. You need to lift the camshaft to replace the shim underneath.

Screw/counter screw clearance is not as stable as shims, but if adjustment is required then that only involves a bit of screwing, as the name implies. In particular you don't need to visit your dealer.

So there's good and bad with both options.

I know you weren't referring to me, but I've stated several times in this thread that the DR650 is very much a reliable machine.

For me, however, I'm also looking for a bike that I can count on notching at least 100,000 trouble-free miles, perhaps 200,000.

My previous two street bikes never needed a thing. I had a Honda ST1100 that I bought with about 50,000 miles on it, and I put another 35,000 miles or so before it was totaled in a wreck. It never needed anything other than regular maintenance, and with 8,000 mile oil change intervals, even regular maintenance was very easy.

My V-Strom 650 went 135,000 miles before I sold it. The only thing that ever went bad on that was the non-replaceable fuel filter. I spent an afternoon and about $100 on a modification to bypass the internal filter and add an external. I told the new owner that if he makes it to 200,000 miles, I'd buy him a bottle of whiskey. Not sure if he ever made it or not, but I have no reason to believe it wouldn't easily make it that far.

I've been without a bike for several years now, and I'm ready to get back in the fold. When I've read about the DR, I read accounts of needing an engine rebuild after 75,000 miles. That seems pretty common. So far as I can tell, you don't see many DR650 bikes with over 100,000 miles without requiring some major overhaul.

I tend to put about 20-25,000 miles per year on my bikes, and I tend to hold onto them for quite a while. So... looking at the lifespan of the DR, I think it doesn't quite fit my needs.

Jamie

True, but I found it shockingly hard to find a mechanic that would check my valves for me - most outright refused saying that if the bike started then everything is fine. This was both in my home country (UK) and all the way across Asia. I finally found someone who both had feeler gauges and was willing to check in Kathmandu, but then they didn't have shims for a Suzuki (I had a DRZ, which has shims instead of screws like the DR), so I ended up having to ride with valves out of spec all the way from Nepal back home to the UK. I haven't had a chance to crack open the bike because it's hard to find a workshop in London, but I suspect I've sustained some damage.

I mean, it is impressive that the bike managed to keep going despite this, but it kind of goes to show how problems can start to compound themselves when you can't do stuff yourself. I'm considering buying a DR in the States for my next trip, but ONLY after I've taken apart my DRZ and rebuilt it and feel confident. I'd honestly never reccomend someone do what I did (that is to say, taking a used DR/DRZ, no preventative maintenance done (cause I couldn't find someone in the UK to do it for me), and then take it on a big trip. Too many mechanics either didn't have the tools, wouldn't work on my bike, couldn't communicate with me, or weren't very good, and I spent SO MUCH time chasing problems wondering whether the last mechanic put the carb back together properly or knew what he was talking about when he said something was fine. If I hadn't been an idiot mechanically I would have fixed it quickly, moved on, and not even given it a second thought and probably be posting here about how reliable the bikes are :thumbup1:

Note: a lot of these problems seem greatly lessened in the Americas.

Realistically I don't think it's very hard for ANYONE to get to the point where they can do this stuff on a DR/DRZ (We'll certainly see when I finally get a workspace) but not everyone has the opportunity to do so.

I don't know about the DRZ but on the DR650, if you're to the point where you change your own tires, fork seals and wheel bearings, this bike is easy to keep in top condition. Checking/setting valves is not difficult, it just takes a while to figure out how to get your hands in there.

I would do a complete service on the bike before leaving home, just to figure out which tools I need to carry with me- as well as have a little familiarity with the bike.

.............shu

If you are riding pavement and good gravel roads then don't even consider getting a single as they rarely outlast a multi cylinder bike on easy terrain.. Now on the other hand if you tried taking your V-Strom into the places {off road}where I go with my single your bike would not last and would end up being a costly choice to maintain..



I classify the V-strom as a street bike you can ride on gravel.. One just has to look at the location of the oil filter to indicate what usage the bike is intended for.. If you install a skidplate to protect it you end up with about 5" of ground clearance...



I've rebuilt DR 650s and find that they have a pretty cheaply engineered engine.... Looking inside, they are kind of like a christmas turkey with one large open cavity for the gearbox and crankshaft... Not the best design, as it lets transmission crud move into the crank chamber... Also the gearboxes are underbuilt in these engines, I rebuilt one last winter that had around 30-40K miles on it and the gearbox was shot, with badly pitted gears.. We found a donor motor with less miles and used the bottom end off it as it was in better condition.. While the donor motors gearbox didn't show any pitted gears, some of the gears did have stretch marks on them indicating that they were not living a perfect life..
That been said cheaply built or not the DR 650 has in a lot of cases put up pretty good service miles VS purchase price.. There has been some cases of exploding gearboxes in low mileage units taking out the whole engine but it is not super common.. I prefer the DR 400 to the 650 for an all around bike with one real downfall, the lack of a 6 speed gearbox..


An ideal bike would be a rally style version of a 400CC to 600 CC twin, that so far is a no show from any factory... My friend built one by installing a 500 twin into a CRF250L Rally frame and that proved to be a great combo.. This is something that would be quite simple for Honda to replicate..
https://photos.smugmug.com/10-day-20...MG_9287-X3.jpg
The 250 Rally with a 500 twin in place, does not look much different..