Does ABS matter?
 

How important is it to have ABS on a bike? How much difference would it actually make?

The reason this question is in my head is because I am considering the current crop of VStrom 650s, in particular the 650X vs. the 650A or T. I know that the X is essentially a marketing gimmick, but at the same time it is cheaper than the A & T and gives a headstart with a couple of bolt-ons. But it doesn't have ABS (hence the cheaper price).

Since the X is pitched as more of an 'adventure' bike one might conclude that there is a reason for leaving off the ABS, but I really don't know and that could be more marketing spin!

In terms of my use of the bike it will most likely be constrained to Europe for the time being with the intention of going further afield in the future. It will be mostly for solo riding but with a fair amount of 2-up as well. I've not done much riding off tarmac (apart from a few back roads in Thailand on an inappropriate 400!) so don't know how much of that I may end up doing. This will be the first 'big' bike I will own after my trusty 125 that has kept me going for the last few years.

I tried searching for posts on 'ABS' but the search engine doesn't seem to like three letter search terms and I haven't found anything that covers this topic by browsing, so I'd appreciate any insights or links anyone can provide.

Depends on who you are!
 

If it says "Rossi" or "Carmichael" on the back of your jacket then no, you dont need ABS, as you can brake better without it.

But for the rest of mankind, and when we are speaking of road riding, mostly on asphalt, I think its a plus in every way. You will only really NEED it, when/if you have a real bad situation, and that is rare, but after that situation, you will be so thankful that you had it.

In a situation like that, you wont have any time to think, be thankful if you even have time to react (no technical system will save you, if you dont!) so its simply better that you will not have to worry about keeping your wheels unlocked, while doing some evasive maneuver, for example.

And conditions on the road change constantly, there may be something on the road that reduces traction, your visibility may be blocked just at the wrong moment. Or you may just simply be tired after a long days riding, and just did not concentrate hard enough, and all of the sudden you got into trouble.

Most of us, even those who say they can brake better without ABS, usually panic in such situation, so not being able to lock your wheels is a big help.

They are totally two different things, to be able to brake properly, when you practice it, and doing it on the street, in an actual situation. The latter is much, much harder, because you are not likely to get a warning.

ABS alone will not save you, though. But if you can brake properly enough, and keep alert while riding, it can give you a little bit more safety-margin, something thats very valuable at that moment.

Do note that there are different ABS´s, some work better than others. The Suzuki DL´s system is ok, never had any problems with it, and now ridden 50 thousand kms with it. Even tried it while riding on an icy road once, and it worked remarkably well (wouldnt dream of stopping it that soon just by myself).

Completely agree with Pecha. If you aren't Valentino Rossi it can make a WORLD of difference in the panic situations - just grab your brakes to max and try to avoid the collision by maneuvering your bike (that is still maneuverable thanks to ABS).

Human nature will act on reflex, and in the panic situations, maybe only 0.01% of uber-experienced riders can focus on the precision controlled power of braking while maneuvering the bike with precision control. All this happends in a fraction of a second. You made a mistake = you're down.

But as said, ABS isn't your mighty-saviour force too, there are endless scenareos how to crash your bike, ABS just gives some additional safety portion for some of the scenarios for us "regular riders-travelers" (read: non-racing experienced riders and probably only few of the racers who can use their braking-controlling experience in real-life traffic that makes unexpected turns and creating other panic-braking situations), so it doesn't automatically make your bike 100% safe either.

Having ridden over 50Kkm with ABS bike myself I'd never buy a street-going bike w/o ABS again. Only specialized offroad bike or tar racing-only purpose bike I'd buy w/o ABS if I ride it outside traffic where only I can make mistakes. ABS has saved my skin and bike dozens of times in the traffic, especially handy in rainy days ;)

You don't notice ABS system on your bike until you need it.

One thing that does worry me a bit is, how much I have already gotten used to the fact my own bike has ABS.

Right now, its on its way back home from Australia by boat, and Im riding a friends spare-bike, which has normal brakes. If something happens, will I just slam on both brakes and go down, hopefully Im not that stupid, but I really dont know, and thats a bit of a chilly feeling. Hope I dont have to find out, either!

This will be less of a problem in a few years as more and more bikes will have it in the future. And the pros of ABS still far outweigh the cons for me.

ABS's raison d'etre is to compensate for bad habits...braking and otherwise.
Fom a certain perspective, it can foster those bad habits.
Nevertheless, its nice assurance for most folk when on tarmac.

From a RTW point of view, its not a good idea off-tarmac and adds additional weight/complexity to your bike choice.

Naah, I don't know. All airheads have ABS and it's a pretty lightweight and simple system :-)

ABS adds only 2 or 3 kg to the weight of a bike. You're not going to notice the weight, but you will be thankful for the ABS when you have to stop quickly on a wet, slippery, downhill mountain road.
You can always switch it off or pull the fuse for offroad riding.

Rain, practice, off road
 

Rain is a great reason for ABS. Especially in fast city traffic. To me, this is where ABS makes sense.

" From a RTW point of view, its not a good idea off-tarmac and adds additional weight/complexity to your bike choice"

Gotta disagree there (but I only rode my DL from Europe to Australia, thats about half way round, so maybe my opinion is not valid at all)...

ABS has been around for quite a while, and in fact Suzuki, for example, uses exactly the same hydraulic unit that they use in some of their cars, cars just have two units for two circuits, whereas bikes have one. It is tested technology thats been used for ages. And it worked without any problems on our trip.

For light offroading I think Suzuki´s system is ok.. and keep in mind, "ABS" is not one specific thing, there are numerous differences between systems and they have evolved, too. Can´t compare the first generation ABS-systems with modern ones, most of them were quite terrible by todays standards. Maybe thats where some people actually have picked their hate towards ABS?

So if one bike´s ABS is not good offroading, that does not necessarily mean they all are. I agree, though, that for serious offroad its better to go without it.

I still think ABS was a plus 99% of the time during our trip, and the few kilos extra it brought, did not matter when you travel 2-up and with one hell of a load on the bike anyway.

Thanks for all your comments, which have certainly shed some light on the matter.

To my mind it seems that ABS is going to be of most use when the road surface has less traction than it should, (oil, ice, etc.). The way I have been taught to ride I don't use the back brake when riding at speed, just the front. In the case of emergency breaking this means that the back wheel never locks up and the more you break, the more force on the front wheel, the more grip - assuming a good road surface of course.

It's interesting that opinion seems to be split when it comes to off-road riding as to whether ABS is an advantage or a hindrance.

In the case of the Wee, my local dealer is actually selling both the X and A versions for the same price and given that choice I'd choose ABS over hand guards, engine guards and a bash plate! Although they also have a nice second hand '05 'strom, which would make the whole ABS issue a moot point...

Do bikes with ABS tend to have the ability to switch it off? Or does that require modifying the wiring, cutting wires, etc.?

You all make good points that don't stray from mine...when on tarmac, great stuff.

BUT....

Whether its 2-3 kgs or more/less...it adds weight.

No matter how simple Sukuki's is to BMW's or whomever else; it does add more complexity to the motorcycle.

And when you're on the road to Timbuktu and wondering WTF the bike won't start due to some electrical check linked to you ABS system, etc....you'll want simplicity. Note this didn't happen to me, but something similar from the POV of a fuel pump did...

Would you dare take a brand new f800 out to Mike's Sky ranch or your DR/XR? The point is simplicity, durability, mechanical familiarity and reliability are what I value in a bike choice for a trip...but everybody's trip is their own adventure;)

I think we will see ABS on more and more bikes the following years.
The system has, like FI, been used on bikes for 25 years already and together with other systems like traction control it will be on most bikes in a few years.
ABS works, and it sure makes riding on slippery roads easier.

But in deep gravel it’s bad, really bad… When you brake hard with a non-abs bike a pile of gravel builds up in front of the tires and this pile increases the effect on braking a lot. With ABS this effect is minimized.

But I guess on most systems you can turn ABS off.

The system brakes, sensor fails and the ABS-ring gets dented (and maybe more). It will not end your trip (at least not on a BMW) and you can continue driving without the ABS-function.
But this is mostly subject on harder trips and most people that go RTW hardly leave the tarmac (I’m not talking about you MotoEdde)

So in the end it’s maybe a question about how you intend to use the bike and preferences. Personally I will continue to improve my brakes so I can lock the wheels at reasonable speed.

Dented ABS-ring in the middle of nowhere:
http://www.actiontouring.com/IS2003_0150.jpg

Yeah, it adds complexity somewhat, but nowhere near as much as modern fuel injection systems do. The probability of having problems with FI on 3rd world conditions (with bad gasoline, etc) is much, much higher.

And FI is something thats already here to stay, because of emissions, so much of the simplicity with bikes is gone anyway.

Besides, I´ve yet to hear about even one Suzuki, that has had any problems with its ABS. (OK, sure there could be some individual cases somewhere, because they must now have thousands and thousands of bikes out there with ABS).

But generally, they do work, period. It really seems their ABS is just as bulletproof as their bikes are. I wouldnt worry about taking such a bike to almost any trip. An on/off switch would be nice, though, thats something Suzuki havent considered necessary, but you can take off the fuse if you want, then it´ll resume into normal brakes.

I've only had one bike with ABS (TDM 900) and I didn't get on with it at all. It didn't like the way I used the brake sometimes and would come on once or twice on a spirited ride. Without ABS I was never getting the front locking up so I sumised it was a bit sensitive. If I pulled the lever gradually I could brake very hard without it activating it was just when I grabbed a handful the initial pressure set it off. I never had any trouble with it on gravel I even provoked it once or twice to see where the point was (rear only!) and was amazed at how much you could brake before it activated. If you have to brake that hard on gravel you need to look further ahead and anticipate more. Of course if you're on mud well all bets are off. An ideal situation for me would be to have ABS only on the front. That way I could brake off road without it being a problem. Needless to say my new Tiger does not have ABS and I've only locked the front up once in a whole year!

Where is the fun in that?

Apparently not so with BMW's. that is why the long way round team had to abandon one of their GS's and continue with a Russian two stroke for a while when the ABS failed. I beleive they had to airlift it back to Germany to get it fixed as the support team mechanics couldn't fix it. Don't suppose it cost Ewan and Charlie much, but it might be a little expensive for some of us.

It depends on the type of fault. If you have problems with the sensors or ABS-ring you still have (non-ABS)-brakes.
I'm pretty sure that if they have bypassed the system (hoses from brake-cylinder to caliper) they could have continued.

Long Way Home.... Cooked ECM
 

I have ridden a 2006 R1200GS off road in some pretty challenging mountain conditions. Very loose dirt on steep down hill means the bike just KEEPS ROLLING WITH ABS!:eek3: It will not stop!:oops2:

When ABS was first on the scene for bikes, one of the tricks the demo riders would do was to launch into a sand trap at 100kph plus and pull up in a straight line. Really very impressive.

When the first Merc trucks came out with ABS they would do a similar thing with one set of wheels on a road and the other set on the dirt beside the road. Dead straight stop with ABS. Without ABS they very nearly jack knifed - more luck than judgement that saved the driver.

On the downside with ABS it can be fooled by some road conditions, corrugated and muddy dirt roads can fool the ABS and apply too few pulses giving the impression of under braking.

It was a bad thing to do, but next time they might make sure that the welders do their stuff right. :thumbup1:


So you have noticed it :rofl:

From time to time a drive a HP2 (non ABS) and I used to have the same problem. The first time I locked both wheels in most traffic lights out of town. When I finally got to gravel roads I locked the wheels all the time.
It was a PITA and I seriously thought of lubing the brake pads….But after focusing on the problem for a few hours it was no problem at all. You just need to be gentle then it works perfect. Driving down a mountain might be the wrong place to practice.

It's NOT a fault of the ABS or the bike, it just shows the stupidity of the owners - any detail should be taken off the bike on welding in third world with questionable electric welding equipment and questionable grounding, on ANY bike IMHO at least. Another issue is the heat from welding that burns out the isolation of cables and grounding them against the frame as a result. I was rather amazed they didn't burned out the rest of the electrics with that stupid frame repair on-bike welding: EFI brain (Motronic), lights, coils, fuses, and the engine still worked - lucky for them - they probably weren't smart enough to diagnose a broken fuse and replace it if necessary :P

The guys screwed up with the repair, so its a user error, and not an ABS fault.

Lucky they are the millionaires, so they can just fly their bikes in and out of the middle of nowhere, and get them fixed... good on them!!

I would trust to take my bike on any trip, and not have a problem with ABS - the bike would much more likely fail from somewhere else (and based on my experience, I know even that is not a high possibility at all).

What ABS gives me, vs. what possibility I have ending up in technical trouble with it, I will choose to go with it any time.

On a personal note, I have seen Margus use his ABS to good effect in Bucarest traffic - his comment at the time was that without ABS in certain situations, he would have been down.

I'd like ABS myself, (you can't beat progress) but it's not fitted on an AT.

The bodged repair by Charlie and Co was the result of ignorance on their part, but solved by lots of money. It wasn't the welder's fault, thought he might have had some idea what could happen!

V-Strom 650 non ABS tested
 

I was following a car aproaching traffic lights on red when we got to within about 25 mtrs the lights changed to green, I started to accelarate and the car stopped at the junction, he was on his mobile. Anyway I braked hard and the wheels didn't lock and gave me the chance to avoid the b88888d , it reminded me of my previous bike a Burgman 650 with ABS which reacted in a similar manner. This is in Saudi, the road dry and I can't say I noticed any significant difference.
Cheers
Ian:thumbup1:

From an RTW point of view...
 

Don't think I can agree here. I much prefer going down a few more times on the dirt then in Teheran traffic or any other busy traffic situation where actual traffic rules are limited to the intuition of every individual traffic participant (which can be anything between a chicken and an elephant, a todler and a Giant truck). And honestly, while overland traveling (multi month rather then multi day) how often do you voluntarily slide around?

Sorry to have a go what I think is probably just a gentle comment to kick off an otherwise very useful post, but the first bit is rubbish and possibly dangerous if some Muppet rides with the ABS fuse pulled because he thinks he's Rossi.

Allow me to give you some background. I work for WABCO who manufacturer about 60% of the ABS and EBS systems on trucks worldwide. I am a sales engineer directly involved in the specification of these systems and a former test engineer. I've worked on all types of vehicle ABS from cars up to the biggest trucks. The only difference with bikes is the wheel lift function in the software, an idea I have used on some military applications.

The myth that anyone will beat the system is based on a test. To prove that the system doesn't just let the brakes off, that it uses it's control loop, you have to find a value for the surface and the decel possible with just the basic brakes. This is compared to the ABS. This searching, on a track I used every day, with a gauge showing the pressure infront of me, typically took ten or twenty stops to find, more if you didn't get it before the weather changed. If Mr. Rossis can find this exact pressure first time, on a piece of road he never saw before, in natural conditions, he is indeed the worlds best rider!

Arguments against ABS on the grounds of 3 kg weight are valid, as is the thought that off road it is less effective depending on how useful a locked wheel with debris built up ahead of it might be. Reliability with ABS is not a factor, a failed sensor or modulator only gives an annoying red light, you still have 100% braking available. A powered system like BMW have used is a bad idea IMHO, but from the power side not the ABS. Feel of ABS is just a very simple technique. Squeeze/push like ****, look and steer in the direction you want to go and ignore the noises etc.

Hope this is useful,

Andy

I'd have ridden on, there is no ABS failure that results in loss of brakes, that isn't just a normal brake failure (like a leak). I could have fixed that bike in ten minutes with the BMW diagnostics and the right parts. Given the welding and ABS light, I suspect more was fried than the ABS ECU and would bet money they didn't want to broadcast the fact that a simple bodged repair effectively scrapped the bike. The other electrics are IMHO a reason to use something no later than an R1100.

Andy

Threewheelbonnie, it's nice to have someone with a bit of insider knowledge in the debate, the rest of us are just end users. However you mentioned that you can steer with the ABS in operation and another post said the same. You meant on 4 wheel systems (or 3 wheels!) I'm sure but there is some confusion. IMHO ABS on a bike is only of any use when braking in a straight line as soon as you lean the bike over to steer you will have to come off the brakes or you'll lowside. Modern bikes with modern tyres and brakes offer an amazing amount of grip even on wet roads. In emergency situations on wet roads especially in low speed senario's such as in town then it's very easy to lock the front. Here ABS is a godsend and no-one could say differently but at higher speeds where there is a lot of weight transfer to the front I think it's less of an advantage.

I'm no riding god, I'm just an ordinary rider but I spent my formative years learning on bikes with crap tyres and brakes and riding off road. Maybe my skill set is different to the "Brembo" generation.

Your right about BMW ABS. We have seen a GS with ABS trouble that had ....NO BRAKES!

If you use rear brakes ...it might be usefull .... BUT ... if you use front brakes only (like me) ...its terrible!! ....

I read ( in HUBB) that, in Australia ABS is optional .... which, İMHO makes aussies the most lucky drivers around the globe ...

Im' afraid that's not correct for the integral-ABS, or do you know something we don't?

Nope, look again at the video, Charlie is riding it around the garage yard saying it has no brakes.

Personally In Europe and most places I would like to have abs, especially a linked system, as it would alleviate the problem I have with having the brake pedal on the wrong side :) I am happy to accept if it does break get tow truck home. But I disagree with the inference that all things modern are infallible. Generally speaking the more complicated things are the less easy they are to repair.. Eventually it gets impossible. I am sure E & C had a good ( official BMW) mechanic in one of the vans together with more spares than most of us can afford. But still they had to abandon the bike. So what chance mere mortals? The less afluent have to really think what could be the repair cost of this or that feature as high repair costs can easily prematurely end a bikes working life.

The same is true for a bike, it's just very wierd to do it. ABS works on slip, which you can oversimplify as the speed of the wheel versus the speed of the axle. So, a rolling wheel (50 kph tyre/50 kph axle) has zero slip, a locked wheel 100%. Depending on the (Hard) road surface, a wheel at 10-70% slip produces a proportional brake force and a lateral/steering force at 50-100% of the zero slip condition for that tyre surface combination. A locked wheel produces about 10% of the brake force and a very low number for the side force, hence you stop long with the back end out, or short because the front end went under!

It does work, but the natural reaction we all know is to release the controls, go round the obstruction then go back on the brakes. If you release the controls, the brakes of course come off, EBA on a bike could be lethal if you vered onto a loose surface. If you stayed on the brakes and lived with the off geometry due to compressed springs etc. you would be better off.

I've done this once. A leraner car driver pulled out, saw me and stopped dead. I braked, realised I was going into the side of the car, went for the gap round the front, onto a wet painted area and stopped with the R1100R's front axle about a foot away from the nose of the car, inline with the badge on the grill. I'd braked all the way through an S at 40-0 mph over a lane change of about 3 meters on a surface that had a Mu value (grip level) about the same as ice.

Not using your rear brake looses you about 25% of what's available. Seems to make no sense to me.

The integral system on some BMW's is power assisted. An ABS failure leaves you with uncontrolled, over powerful brakes which is bad. A power assistance failure leaves you with a basic set up that needs the strength of three people to operate. Both will ruin your day, unlike an unpowered system that 99 days out of 100 will get you a long way home with the light on so long as you don't try the emergency stop on the wet paint!

The solution off road should be a Mu selector. This is what 4x4's have. The switch doesn't turn the ABS off, it increases the allowed slip before it acts. Hence you get the debris built up to brake on, plus the control when you really need it. I guess BMW will go this route next.

Andy