Consider this before buying a BMW
 

Hi Guys,
Here is a letter I have written to BMW. I have sent it to every BMW address I have come across. I have had a few replies saying this has been forwarded to the right person but the right person has yet to make contact with me.
BMW Australia tried to help but they said they could not do anything as it happened in Peru. They said BMW Germany investigated this issue but BMW germany has never contacted me once.
BMW says it prides itself on customer service and satisfaction but when it comes to the crunch they obviously don't.
I just thought people might like to know what to expect service wise when something goes wrong with your BMW motorcycle overseas.

TO BMW

I will try to keep the as short as possible. In September 2011 I set out to ride my 2009 BMW r 1200 GSA motorcycle from the northern most point of Alaska to the Southern most point of Argentina. Four months into the trip on January the 14th 2012 I was riding through a desert on the Pan-American Highway about 200km south of Lima Peru. I pulled over and turned off the ignition so I could take some pictures. When I went to start the GSA again it would not start. A warning light flashed up displaying EWS! I got a mechanic to come and look at the bike and assess the problem. After a few phone calls we decided the bike had to go back the 200km to Lima. The Mechanic towed my bike to Commercial Gildemeister BMW Motorrad in Lima peru. There I met with the General manager Eduardo Hearne. We discussed the problem and Eduardo said it could be fixed.
The next morning the mechanic set about trying to fix my bike. They tested the ring antenna first but that was fine. Two days later they tested the wiring which they said were fine. Meanwhile I had got on onto a few BMW forums to seek help with the problem. All suggestions pointed to the wiring. I got onto BMW in Colombia and MAX BMW in the US and they both said it must be the wiring. I relayed this information to Eduardo Hearne and they checked the wiring again but still could not find a fault. They said it must be the BMSKP unit, there could be no other explanation.
I requested Eduardo to get me a new BMSKP unit and fix the bike straight away because as you could imagine I was pressured for time. Eduardo told me it would take 4-6 weeks to obtain the BMSKP unit form Germany. I could not wait 4-6 weeks so I got onto a friend Stephen Joyce in Kearys BMW, Cork Ireland and asked if he could send me the part. I told Eduardo I could have the BMSKP unit sent over from Ireland in 6-8 days. I asked him if he was sure I needed it and he told me it has to be the problem and to get the BMSKP sent over. Stephen done a remarkable job was able to have the BMSKP unit programmed to my bike in the post in 48 hrs. It would take 6-8 days to arrive in Lima Peru. Stephen also told me this would be non-refundable as it is now programmed to my bike.
Being short on time I decided to fly to Machu Picchu to see the 15th-century Inca site. Five days later I received an email from Eduardo Hearne at Gildmister BMW telling me not to bring the BMSKP unit as they have fixed the problem. They swapped the complete wiring harness between my bike and another and my bike started. They then figured it must after all be a wiring issue and stripped down my wiring harness and found a broken wire inside. They fixed the wire and replaced my wiring harness and the problem was solved. I was in fact a broken wire all along just as everyone had suggested. I was delighted and flew back to Lima two days later to pick up the bike.
The problem now was what to do with the unnecessary BMSKP unit I was told to buy. If it was collect it from customs in Peru it would attract a 60% import fee so I left it to be returned to sender. It arrived back at Kearys BMW Cork Ireland a few weeks later where it still sits today. I'm not wanting to blame anyone for this incident but I payed $1200 plus shipping costs for this BMSKP and had it ordered to Peru on the instructions of Eduardo Hearns at Commercial Gildemeister BMW Motorrad in Lima Peru. If they had checked the wiring properly before telling me to order this BMSKP unit there would have been no problem. This wiring issue cost me a lot of time and small fortune in hotels and flights while waiting for the issue to be fixed. I would like to get a refund for the unit as I have no use for it. It is still in its original packaging. I would appreciate a response to this email or if you could forward this to the relevant persons please. I have sent emails to other BMW addresses but yet received no reply.


Regards
Kevin O'K

It is disappointing but is not surprising that you have firstly had electrical problems like this and secondly a poor or non existent response from BMW.
In the ten years that I have been a member of this forum I have seen numerous posts and debates about the reliability of the electronics on the latest BMWs and the quality of the backup service the company offers in the event of a problem and have concluded that neither are good enough.
They are well designed bikes, they must be or they wouldn't sell in such numbers, but they seem to have put more effort and money into marketing than into quality control or backup when something goes wrong in anything other than "normal" circumstances.
I wish you well in your attempts to get some satisfaction from BMW but suspect you will be either ignored or passed from one department to the next, perhaps others should take note of this when considering which bike to buy for that extended tour.
Do keep us informed as to how you get on and perhaps if anybody else has had a similar problem and managed to get a satisfsctory result from BMW they could pass on how they did it.

Wire....
 

OK, chance of being shot down in flames here but........I ride an older 850r, from 2000, a much simpler bike, that I can fix myself.....if you buy a newer bike with LOADS of complex expensive electronic stuff that needs programing to your bike, etc. then you cannot be surprised if you end up, **** creek with no paddle.....methodical, and the simple things first, AND if I went on a forum and was told it was a wiring prob, then get a cheap meter, a diagram and look for continuity between the wires in question, OR strip the tape and find the broken wire, why bother with calls, letters, emails, 100's of bucks, thousands on a spare, FOR ONE BROKEN WIRE...and then cry about it on here and blame bmw? The part you are trying to get a refund for is MORE than I have paid for a complete running used 1996 bmwr850r, you are on the other side of the world, far from Bavaria, etc.ok the dealer should have spotted it but sometimes you have to do things for yourself, which is the whole SPIRIT of traveling around for me, at least?? Sorry, but the "all the gear, but no idea" quip comes to mind.

How were they testing the wiring? I assumed that your bike was connected to the proper diagnostic machine for that model which would be able to run through all the circuits one by one. If this was the case then the diagnostic program is not thorough enough. Considering the entire bikes electrical system is based on electronics (Canbus) I'm surprised that the diagnostics is not foolproof and the only way to check the loom is to replace it with another one from a similar machine which, with the benefit of hindsight, is what they should have done.

I wish you luck with your quest. From what I've heard BMW customer service has gone downhill at the same rate that the price of their bikes has risen.

And thanks for posting your story - it all helps to convince me that riding a 24 year old bike with very few electronic parts (for which I have replacements under the seat) is the best way to go.

Had 2 bmws a gs and gsa. Loved them both were they reliable well no.
First one a 2005 gs inside the first year battery fuel pump controller right side injector and final drive went in under 30000 miles second one was bought with 9000 miles on it full bmw service history a 2007 inside a year and at 22000 miles final drive and clutch went. Both bikes fully bmw serviced and well looked after.
All items were replaced under warranty but final drive failure.on the first one meant i lost 3 days of my holiday and had to be flown home by bmw and i had to.pay for repairs before claiming it back.
Would i buy another gs no now have a 2003 multistrada which so far is going better than the gs s did at a fraction of the cost.
My wife rides an 18 year old africa twin which has needed only a rectifier in 2 years.
For my travelling in 5 years time i fancy a ktm 950 adventure should be able to.afford one by then.
Reasonably simple to fix.
Just my 2 pence worth.Attachment 9980

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

Most diagnostic programs are written when the system is designed. The designer usually over looks wires and connectors as things that cause problems. There is even one that overlooks a fuse .. and that fuse effects the gear box shifting .. but is labeled 'Reverse Light'... because that is one of the things is is connected to.... (not a BMW). The diagnostic says replace the gearbox relays. Replace the relay - still faulty .. then use time to find out the fuse is faulty. Fixed. Until the owner attaches a (faulty) trailer that blows the fuse .. back to faulty. Of course the owner only brings in the car .. no trailer attached. Designers don't do service work in remote areas so are not aware of the problems... $1200 to you, so may be $400?

I think much pressure to fix the problem was applied to the mechanic involved. And that leads to not enough time and thought being used ($$$ labor) to solve the problem ($ part). The more you know about your own bike the more you can avoid problems, or at least minimize other peoples time spent working on your bike (saving money).

Sorry but your going to have to take the hit. :funmeterno:

If it can be used on the same model of bike as yours then you may be able to sell it .. eventually some one will need one. Just put the word out amongst the bm mechanics.. how much would you take for it - assuming someone wants it? No I don't want it - don't have one of those oil heads. You'll need to under cut bms dealer price by some margin on the pricing - after shipping too..

I worked for years on truck electronics. This is typical of techs who are out of their depth and honestly terrified of anything you can't see. The can modules are by nature stupid. If they say they can't do something that is a fact. What the techs do is then jump to the conclusion that the bit that won't talk is dead. It's like phoning your house, no one answering, guessing it burnt down and buying a new one. The electronics are in fact very reliable and when training techs I would always make them unplug everything and buzz out the loom.

We are still getting through a generation of mechanics who are now retraining as electronic techs. German companies like the one I worked for forgot this 'soft' element. Too many engineers at management level making assumptions.

With an obd2 reader, diagram, meter, patience and a logical approach you should be fine.

I have some sympathy as this BMW dealer was out of his depth, but when you start rushing to your own solutions you have to take some responsibility yourself. I once billed a bus company £700 to change a fuse. He claimed the abs ECU failed and his mechanics had already checked the fuse. I drove 200 miles and proved him wrong.

Andy

A case of more haste, less speed that led to a bad decision?
In any case, IMO, this is where it all goes wrong: you took over responsibility for the repair of the machine from the garage, their manager and the mechanics.

As a separate point, I have never heard of electronic components being pre-programmed to particular machines in, or example, computer hardware, so perhaps you should query this with your helpful contact who provided the part from Ireland.
If I am wrong on this, it might be of interest to know what exactly has to be pre-programmed, how that is done remotely from the bike and why it isn't reversible.

Which other motorcycle manufacturer provides this level of service (at a price of course)?
Naturally, it's all down to insurance.

And most of them don't like the black arts of the electronics.

Well, I have some sympathy for you pal. I´ve been stuck in Norway once when an indicator on my Africa Twin indicated that I had low voltage in the battery and the loading current proved to be ok with 13,x V. I ended up shelling out 150 Euros for a new battery, throwing away a perfect, one-year-old battery when I later found out that the indicator thing, which many AT riders here buy from a chap in Switzerland who makes those, just effed up in rain and indicated crap.
The bad thing I guess was in your case to take matters in your own hand ordering the part on your cost, instead of having the repair shop find out on its cost that the replacement part was not needed and thus they could not bill you for it. I´m not sure whether there is much difference in metering out a CAN bus harness vs. a conventional harness. Knowing your bike inside out makes the difference if the crap hits the fan out there in far-far-away-land, and relying on repair shops will in many cases just not do good. In your case I´d try to work out a solution with the supplier of the part you had shipped and shipped back, probably ending up eating what I ordered, take the hit and ride on.

Safe travels
Chris

I lost 12 weeks in the riding season over 3 years with an R11GS, and had a total runaround from BMW NA and 3 dealers involved.

The aftertaste that left has had me off of BMWs ever since.

Ewan and Charlie really have done a great job on selling the GS as the essential RTW tool.

I'd rather RTW my 200 cc Chinese dual sport or 125cc Yamaha dual sport (which is based off a delivery / commercial bike platform) than any current BMW.

Simple, easy to fix bikes, especially the Yamaha. I can have the carb off in 30 seconds and access the sparkplug and valves without having to remove any bodywork.

Either can go about anywhere a GS can, and I've taken both through trails and 'roads' without incident where I would have dropped a GS or needed assistance to get through.
Some places have involved water transport and stuff that just isn't feasible on a big bike.

The Chinabike only has 4000 miles on it, so far faults have been restricted to missing / loose bolts and a sparkplug.
The YBR is coming up on 12k miles and has been faultless apart from standard service items.

And both bikes are ridden hard and put away wet, often fully loaded with 1 or 2 passengers and luggage in 3rd world environments.
Both have been dropped multiple times.

Service / repairs / mods are done by 'techs' with minimal tools and no shop manual. No torque wrench, often they use an adjustable wrench dur due to the lack of the proper tool, working on the sidewalk.

I reckon a modern BMW would wilt under that kind of treatment in short order...

Instead of waiting for weeks for parts or suitable tires, usually the local 'engineering' shop can cobble together what can't be sourced from the dealer or generic parts store.

And for the cost of one of the major services on my GS (including the parts replaced at my or BMW's cost) I can buy either of these 2 bikes new, including tax, title and 1 year free service.

Sent from my Android chinaphone, excuse the spelling

In France it's possible to do an BACC (A level) course in how to operate the various diagnostics machines. Successful students then get jobs in dealerships as 'junior service managers' at the age of 20 having never held a spanner in their life, supervising a team of hairy arsed mechanics with years of experience but who don't know a volt from an amp.

What's an obd2 reader - I have the other things on your list but not sure if I need one of these obd thingies

Only strictly speaking for the supply of the part which he was told that he needed without any doubt.

Surely the dealer in Lima would have been able to do the programming required. I suspect it just has to be coded to match the ring antenna. I would think it is reversible or you may have to chuck away the eprom and fit a new one.

Even with CANBUS a wire is a wire and still need to conduct electricity from one end to the other.

I don't think that BMW are liable in this situation but I think they need to look at their training and spares support. They should respond to the OP and perhaps make some sort of offer of compensation.

I think one post has answered another here:

I'm not sure that follows.

than into the design as well maybe?
That seems to be the common business model these days, hence the humungous number of TV channels now showing in most countries, all paid for by businesses that spend more on marketing than on what they do or sell. (Ultimately paid for by us of course).

That's probably more like it I think.
The power of TV. It's seriously underestimated.

Sorry about the situation KevOK. Hope you find some resolution. I'd push a bit with the Cork dealer to find out exactly why the part can't be taken back. You've paid for the part and for the 'programming' so they should tell you exactly what the 'programming' is. And maybe get the answer confirmed by a BMW dealer in the country where you bought the bike.

Obd2 is on board diagnostics version 2. It looks like a 1970's electronic calculator and let's you see why a lot of can systems are doing their computer-sez-no routine. Bikes don't have to meet the car standard but most speak the lingo you just need a bit of bodging to find the hi and lo on the diagnostic plug. Phone apps exist that speak obd2 but I've never had cause to try one. Time will come when the app reboots the bike, charges your PayPal account and fills your inbox with spam about the newest bike, just like Microsoft!

Andy

Ok, I hear you. I´m sort of uncomfy with this CANBUS stuff, but I might end up learning details if I get onto a more modern bike. Well, conducting electricity, that may well be. But I was asked by Missus to look at one of her friend´s top modern BMW today, which was not starting. Well, the battery was dead and whilst BMW has a nice 12V cigarette lighter plug, one can´t use a regular charger but it needs to be a BMW approved charger to not damage the CANBUS by sending current to the battery through the friggin´ wire..... Since she did not want to shell out some funds for that charger, I did what I needed to do - give it a push start in 3rd and took the thing for a spin :scooter:...
Whilst I still sometimes have the idea to get me a 1200 GS Adventure for my 50th birthday next spring, there are more and more reasons not to and to go for an LC8 990 Adventure. Or the new Triumph Explorer which I did ride for an hour last week - what a hot thing!
Cheers
Chris

The doubt is in there because the workshop returned to working on the bike during the customers absence, changed the wiring harness and, hey presto, they found the problem, eventually; why did they do that after telling the customer that there was definitely a different problem for which the customer "short circuited" the workshop internal procedures and bought his own replacement part?

I remarked on this only to draw attention for others who might be tempted to get involved with workshop practices in the future.

From the OP it seems that KevOK realises this, which is why he would like to get the Irish supplier to take the replacement part back into their stock; it is really not anything to do with BMW directly; no warranty issues are mentioned herein for example.

I'm not sure why the dealer in cork told you the control unit would come programmed, i have been working for bmw for 4 years and the only way to programme a control unit to your bike is to have the bike actually there to do it. When you programme control units the diagnosic machine 'stamps' your vin into it aswell as your vehicle order (all relevant optional extras that your bike has fitted) all of this info is taken off of your bike at the time of programming and put onto the new control unit. You cannot put a used control unit onto any other bike for these reasons as it will cause conflicts within the bike so if you want to sell it privately the only person you can actually sell it to is the owner of the bike that the control unit is programmed to. BMW will not give you a refund for any control unit you order. If you would have let the dealer that was doing the diagnostics on the bike order the control unit and they misdiagnosed then the cost would be with them but as you went ahead and ordered it yourself, although they told you that was the problem, personally i think the cost should lie with you.
Admittedly the delaer should have diagnosed the problem correctly the first time but a broken wire can be sometimes hard to find, if it is literally just split then it could easily just sit together giving the appearance of a connected wire and any elemants could break the circuit like heating the bike up could adapt the loom just enough to break the circuit or turning the handlebars to on side.
OBD2 is not used on bikes. BMW use their own diagnosis bus which connects to thier and after market diagnosis systems. The system is far from perfect and does throw out the occasional control unit failed diagnosis, and it is far from just plugging it in and it will tell you what is wong with the bike, you actually have to do all measurements manually with a multimeter and then enter them onto the system for it to decide what is wrong. All it does is give you a guided diagnosis, a step by step guide of what wires could be the cause of the issue.
The can bus system contains only 2 wires, a signal and a confirmation, which basically allow the control units to recieve signals for switches, lights, sensors etc without having to run signal wires to each control unit that needs that signal e.g the wheel speed signal is sent to the abs unit only then the instrument cluster gets the speed signal from the abs unit though the can bus lines. It is actually very simple when you break it down.

Just as a final note, although you have found the problem now, i would have said that your problem was the wiring. Your bike is too late a model to be fitted with the faulty ews ariels, which all were replaced under recall anyway. Im guessing that the break probably would have been around your headstock, either at the bend in the wire or where it is cable tied to the frame, i have not had one break that hasnt been in either of those positions.

This makes much more sense than the concept in the OP of pre-programming an electronic component remotely.
e.g. once an external hard disc is attached to, say, a digital television (and formatted for recording purposes) then that drive cannot be used subsequently in, say, a computer.

On the basis that the new unit has never been fitted to the sickly bike - never been out of the packaging apparently - then the Irish supplier may be in a position to take it back into their stock OR the Peruvian dealer could "make an offer" for it (if I was inclined toward conspiracy theories, I might think that they wanted to snag one when the sick bike turned up at their premises - but I don't do conspiracy theories).

I get the impression from the OP that the Cork dealer would only supply the control unit on the understanding that it was non-refundable. Whether or not he did any programming is only important if the current owner wants to try and sell it privately.

The way in which it broke down is also an important factor in determining what has actually caused the bike to stop (or not start in this case). If it was as the OP said one minute the bike was working 100%, he then stopped and a few minutes later tried to start the bike and it was completely dead then he was probably right to think that it was an electronic failure. In my experience broken wires initially cause intermittent faults leading eventually to complete failure but the problem with electronic failures is that they can just occur for no good reason (although heat is usually the cause).

If this sort of fault occurred on my low tech bike I would have tried 'hotwiring' the starter motor and ignition circuits depending on the exact symptoms. I'm not sure how much the CANBUS technology affects things but, for example, if the starter isn't turning I would disconnect the existing wiring and jump it directly from the battery - if it turns then it points the finger at the switch and numerous interlocks (neutral switch, sidestand switch etc.). OK I realise I'm probably over simplifying things as I have very little experience of such complex machines but it's interesting to note that technology hasn't overcome the problem of fatigue breaks in the wiring loom at the headstock! I would have thought that some sort of wireless connection could be used.

CANBUS has been around for nearly 30 years with 4 wheelers and it is here to stay:-
What is CAN Bus?
According to that website --
1. One advantage is the reduction in the amount of wiring used in the loom - for the BMW car it saved 50 Kg of weight.
2. Vehicle construction regulations standardise on the implementation of CANBUS technology; I have come across this theme in other discussion, whereby the diagnostic tools are supposed to be interchangeable.

Wiki explains a lot more about how signals are transmitted via the CANBUS, but the old ways of diagnosing faults have to be modified to take into account that information flows as signals/impulses and not as a constant flow of current

"I get the impression from the OP that the Cork dealer would only supply the control unit on the understanding that it was non-refundable. Whether or not he did any programming is only important if the current owner wants to try and sell it privately."
In part, this is why I mentioned that becoming involved in the garage internal procedures for procurement of spare parts is not a great idea, even if the customer considers that they are under time pressures; further, doing it via a personal friend/acquaintance simply complicates the relationship aspects.

I think you also have to be realistic / fatalistic about any BMW Motorrad facilities outside of the developed world.

Many of them do not have up to date diagnostic kit.

Once I spoke to the official dealer / importer in Kazakhstan who said their diagnostic kit cant help with anything more recent than 1999.

Generally speaking, the sales of BMW motorcycles outside the western world is tiny (in contrast, sales of BMW cars in Peru or Mongolia or wherever, is actually significant). Dealers are often the local car importing franchise of BMW who has been compelled by Munich to have a token Motorrad sales and service facility too, as a condition of getting the BMW Car franchise for that country. In reality, their interest in selling or servicing the motorcycles is near zero. Their investment in equipment and staff training is also near zero. Again using Kazakhstan as an example, there are NO BMW owners in Kazakhstan that I know that go to the dealer for service. All say they are useless, and get the bikes serviced by local passionate motorcycle mechanics. The dealer there exists only to import and sell new bikes. Beyond that, they have no real function.

The local importers and dealers are only interested in the BMW car business. Thats where the money is.

Expecting the motorrad section to be any use at all, to have top draw bike mechanics, to have up to date diagnostic equipment or even carry any spare parts in stock is totally not realistic.

You buy a voltage meter (presumably dash mounted) off a random bloke, and throw a battery away without double checking it with another meter from a local mechanic?

Oops.

The latest diagnosis machine, MOSS, Costs over £4000 to dealers and has to be connected to germany through the internet to use it, it's easy to see why far away dealers will not fork out for the latest equipment if they rarely see any need for it

Whilst we are busy slating BMW R1200GS does anybody know the story behind this photo I have just seen on Facebook and what did this chap's dealer say to him?

http://tiffanystravels.smugmug.com/O...200%20gs-M.jpg

It used to be that if you had a motorcycle franchise you were contractually obligated to buy all the service material and get staff trained up (at your expense) on each new model. BMW insisting that you take on a bike franchise in order to get the car franchise is just another indication of their declining comittment to customer service.


At least he won't need a diagnostic machine to work out what's wrong with it!

have only ever seen one other like that.
Could have been a number of things, the drive shaft could have previously broken and damaged the inside of the swingarm, he could have previously had an rear end accident.

Hi Guys,

I guess this is why I stuck this on this forum in the first place, to see what your thoughts are.

I am only writing this letter to BMW because all of my attempts to contact BMW in Lima have failed. They have been ignoring me for over a year.

When this happened originally I reckoned it was a wiring issue. I got onto Max BMW in the US and BMW in Bogota Colombia along with BMW in Cork Ireland. They all reckoned it was a wiring issue as well. I relayed this to the tech in Lima and he checked the wiring again. Yes they did use the Canbus system, I watched them do it. Having never seen this work before it was all new to me but it did not look like they knew what they were doing. They had no system and seemed to be checking things randomly skipping back and forth over the wiring system. Its obvious now that they skipped over the broken part.

I asked them to check it again but they refused. They said it was NOT a wiring issue and it HAD to be the BMSKP unit. There was nothing else it could be. Having been stuck in Lima for a week already I asked them to just fix it. I was then told that it would take at least 6 weeks to get a new part. That is why I got the part myself. I asked again and again if this part was necessary because of the expense and I was told yes, to go ahead and get it if I can. Peru has some weird importation laws so maybe this is why I was able to get it faster myself.

While I was in Machu Picchu they swapped the wiring harness between two bikes and found the problem. This happened because another BMW garage advised them to do this.

So who should I hold responsible? The bike manufacturer with their faulty wiring or the Garage with their faulty diagnosis. This part costs nothing for BMW to manufacture. I don't even care about the money any more. I just want people to know what will happen if they have such a mishap on the road in a foreign country.

Don't get me wrong, I really like these bikes even with all their electronic components. I'm on my third one now and I have ridden them all over the world. I have had plenty of other issues with these bikes while travelling internationally all of which I paid for myself even though these bikes were under warrantee because the warranty only covers the bike in its home country.

I feel like I must be missing something. What I'm gathering (correct me if I'm wrong about all or part):

You had an out-of-warranty bike, 2+ years old, unknown mileage, with a faulty bit of wiring. You got shitty advice from a shitty mechanic--maybe from several shitty mechanics. You spent a lot of money and a fair amount of time pointlessly as a consequence of following that advice. This was a year ago. You wish you had chosen a better mechanic in the first place, particularly since there seemed to have been one nearby.

What do you expect BMW to do? Compensate you for spending an unconscionable amount of money trying to expedite an unnecessary repair? Compensate you for trusting the word of a manifestly inept mechanic wearing, I assume, a BMW jumpsuit? Seriously?

Maybe I'm way off base but I sure don't expect that sort of backup on my (Japanese) bikes when on distant continents. Is this sort of expectation widely held by BMW owners? Are they often disappointed?

I've had some peevish interactions with Kawasaki--both local dealers and the North American office--during my 7 years of KLR use. But I don't keep fighting un-winnable fights. If it's been over a year, you need to make your peace with the whole thing for your own sake. You say the money doesn't matter any more, which is probably good--amortized over the cost of buying and running several bikes on various continents, it's not that big a deal in the end.

I'm curious, though: are modern BMW's much more complex, more reliant on electronics, or more difficult to diagnose without fancy equipment than modern Japanese, Austrian, British or American bikes? I'm not asking whether they break down more often: I'm curious about the consequences when they do. If they really are much more difficult to diagnose and repair, your warning "I just want people to know what will happen if they have such a mishap on the road in a foreign country..." makes sense. If not, I'll remain dubious.

Mark

That is an assumption. And you could be very wrong. I'd suggest Mark you take a more moderate view of people you don't know nor circumstances that you also don't know. We only have one side, and that is shortened to fit the space, and filtered by time (memory).

The problem may well be that a person who trained for mechanical things is now faced with a complex electronic system. While they have sophisticated expensive tools to help, their aptitude may be more in line with gears, pistons and bearings not CPUs, MOSFETs and SCRs... They may be very good with the mechanical .. but less so with the electronics. So the employer keeps them on due to their excellence with mechanicals. And the have no one else better at the electronics. OR the 'urgency' of the requested repair ends up with the only person not doing something 'important'.

They are more complex than a basic primitive EFI system (like the old BMW K bikes). Or even the old F650. They do do more, what do you expect with the added complexity?

There are a number of reasons why I'd not have one of the newer large bm 'adventure' bikes - size, weight, cost, ease of repair are a few of 'em. Similar reasons can be used to exclude other bikes from various manufactures.

Sounds like good advice for me. Thanks. I was merely trying to represent the OP's position, but failed to make that clear. I guess in doing so, I also failed to make my main point, which was about owner's expectations of mechanics and their abilities--and whether they expect manufacturers to make good on perceived shortcomings.

Mark

Hi Mark,

I hope I'm not being out of line by expecting that a manufacturer can and will maintain their product. Are we simply expected to throw away something because parts of it are broken. If my car or bike breaks I certainly expect the manufacturer to be able to fix the problem. The manufacturer is represented by their franchise holders, in this case BMW lima.

I did indeed get shitty advice but only from BMW lima. Every other mechanic I asked said it was a wiring issue. I relayed this info to BMW lima but they choose to ignore it. They only checked it again when they were told to do so by another BMW garage. If they had not diagnosed the problem that time I would have had to collect the BMSKP unit from customs and pay another 60% import fee on it just to find out that was not the problem either. The whole situation could be a hell of a lot worse believe me.

"What do you expect BMW to do? Compensate you for spending an unconscionable amount of money trying to expedite an unnecessary repair? Compensate you for trusting the word of a manifestly inept mechanic wearing, I assume, a BMW jumpsuit? Seriously?

What would you expect? I would certainly like to know if one of my franchises was not living up to my good name. If they couldn't diagnose the problem and fix it in my opinion "BMW" should be removed from above the door.They should not have inept mechanics working there in the first place. As Warin said "The problem may well be that a person who trained for mechanical things is now faced with a complex electronic system". This is very true. The mechanic was a very nice guy but he was the only one there. The garage was real busy because the Dakar rally was in town. I don't think it was his fault as he was being rushed from job to job but they diagnosed the problem wrongly at great expense to myself. If I was riding a KLR I wouldn't expect Kawasaki to do anything about it but it's not a KLR its a BMW and they go on and on about their after sales service like we are privileged to get it.


I don't expect anything from BMW, the fact that they have never bothered to answer any of my emails is proof that they don't care. I just want to let people know what to expect.

Excuse me if I'm wrong.

Definitely, this is the case.
In the UK, at least, BMW owners have very high expectations that are not always met by the dealers.

As Mark identifies, these expectations go way beyond what is expected of other marques of motorcycle. The human psychology that lies within this is something I find to be quite interesting - another form of "people watching".

Incidentally, the world over, not all mechanics/workshop techies are equal; absolutely the case.

Dealer:
It's time to trade up sir; you need the new, 2013, wasserhead.

Joking apart, I don't see any of this thread as beating up BMW as a company; that stuff lies elsewhere in the HUBB.

If BMW are obligating car franchise holders in small markets to carry a bike franchise as well just to get a few sales, but not insisting that they have the same level of support or trainng as in Europe then they are working against their own self imposed high customer service standards.

BMW makes a bike which is marketed as the ultimate RTW tourer and sold on the understanding that they have a worlwide dealer network second to none. If you choose a BMW over a Kawasaki because of this spiel then I think you are very naive.

I learnt in Africa 20 years ago that the dealers listed in the book in Nairobi, Lusaka and other places didn't really exist. Most were set up when BMW managed to sell a few R80s to the national police force and, since they had long been replaced by Hondas or similar, all that remained were a few service parts in a box on a shelf.

I find this fascinating--particularly so as a KLR rider. So that's the essence of what I was asking about, and there's the answer.

I really didn't mean to be insulting, or condescending, or anything else in particular....except puzzled.

I'll say that when I've had similar expectations within the small world of motorcycles and riding gear, I've often gotten my comeuppance pretty quick. I hardly even bother raging endlessly anymore about my high-end riding suit with its design and material flaws, leaks, nonfunctional closures and pockets which allow rain to enter in great quantities but totally forbid exit. I guess it hadn't occurred to me--as a KLR rider--that BMW would be any different from the people who sold me my riding suit. Your expectation, as a frequent flier, is that they will be.

Which brings to mind the phenomenon of "intermittent reinforcement." It turns out that the best reinforcers of behaviors are not predictably present or absent--they're present part of the time, but unpredictably so. Maybe if you get two worthy bikes and one bad one, you're that much more likely to come back for a fourth and fifth.

Of course, the same surely applies to KLR riders...

Mark

New aspects continue to emerge; meanwhile, the expectations of BMW continue to be very high; I am not sure why that is the case.

In my "people watching" mode I am interested in why you felt pressured into taking on responsibility for providing the spare part and what expectations you had of Peru prior to entering the country - I guess a "westernised one" regarding customer service.

"Maybe if you get two worthy bikes and one bad one, you're that much more likely to come back for a fourth and fifth. "

Hi Mark,

Don't get me wrong. I have had 3 of these bikes now. I have had trouble with all of them but thats what you get when you ride these bikes hard across the world through different climates and terrains putting tens of thousands of KM up on them in a short time. I still like the bikes and when they are working they are great but when the break and there is nothing you can do about it other than take them to a BMW garage then they suck. I had a mechanic completely check the bike over before he towed me the 200km back to Lima. He tried everything he could to get it going on the side of the road but had to give up because EWS shuts the bike down. That is the only reason I went to BMW. Trust me when I'm at home I never go near them.

I never expect everything when travelling to be hunky dory and go to plan. Breaking down is always an adventure within the adventure. I know now that I was foolish to expect BMW to provide me with the service they claim to provide. I just want to let people know about it so they'll know what they can expect.



To answer your question Dave I really had no expectations of Peru before riding in there. I travel to see the world, to meet the people and then I form opinions on a place I guess. I never expect anything. I have ridden through parts of the world that people said I was crazy to go to and found out the people in these countries to be the most hospitable on earth, namely Iran and Pakistan.

I guess I felt pressured to get this part myself because the garage wasn't too helpful about getting it. They said it was necessary but maybe it was an expensive part for them to have to outlay for. They told me to get it if I could saying it would be much faster for you. I was encouraged to get it myself. I was not able to hang around Lima and wait for 6 weeks. If that had been the case I would have had to call off the trip and ship the bike home. I guess I had a westernised opinion of the BMW garage when I saw it for sure. It is just like any garage you would come across in Europe/USA, coffee machines an all. So yes I did expect them to act professionally. just goes to show you shouldn't take anything at face value I guess.

Thanks for ye're input guys. I do appreciate it and I have let the issue go. I'm riding from Nordkapp to Cape Town this year and I'm a little paranoid about taking this bike. If it leaves me broken down in the middle of Africa I'm going to douse it in petrol.

The first generation of BMW bikes with can could communicate with obd2 readers, i saw it done on an 1150. There is nothing special about bike systems except a deliberate lockout of independent dealers via weird plugs. You can just cut these off. There were also a few bike specific codes that the reader could not describe but could be decoded by hand. The 'needs to talk to Berlin' thing is BMW justifying the huge cost to their dealer network, if you don't get updates you just fall behind, the atmosphere will not catch fire, your manhood will not shrivel up, no puppies will die.

There is no advantage I can see to can on a bike to the owner. There are lots of advantages to bmw the biggest of which is that like any out of warranty consumer electronic you won't be using it in 20 years time.

The drive shaft claim will have worth recording!

Andy

i work with MAN lorries they too are on canbus. the ecu units we do not keep in stock for any lorry they are special ordered in from germany as the have a shelf life of about 2 months after that they wont work so when a truck ecu goes down we order it germany load the ecu to that specific truck we have to fit it within 2 months but we program it in the workshop to the truck. it has to talk to germany and the other ecu's on the truck. some of the big trucks have 11 ecu's running it. so i can see that if bmw are the same its just a way of keeping joe public out and they can charge what they like

The man ebs ECU has the vehicle configuration in it, anything from a 4x2 to a 10x4 which it needs for the load sensing function. Once plugged in it's only calibrating the inputs. The ecas has 2 to 5 axles of which 3 might lift, it needs to know air bag pressures related to weights. The engines are mechanically the same, the power and so on is programmed. The gearbox ECU needs telling about pto's, diff locks and so on. The suppliers all have software that can turn from blank to vehicle specific, you can guess most of what they won't tell you. The expiry is news to me. There is no clock in the brake or suspension ECU, could be the diagnostic software that is set to stuff it up if the serial number or software version has dropped off a list. That would be a useful commercial feature, but they'll blame safety, you don't want a 42 tonner on 6 axles thinking it's a parcel van and deciding to ignored the trailer and lift axle brakes.

On a truck it makes some sense. On a bike the variations are mechanically rather less significant, the electric windscreen won't kill you.

Andy

None of this leaves me feeling inspired to buy a new bike, ever.

But.....I own a new-ish car (2010 model year). It's probably got all the same stuff on board, and I expect it'll run fine for a couple of hundred thousand miles. Why doesn't it work that way with bikes?

Mark

Hi KevOk
I must admit i have to agree with Mark here,I could understand if that bike was just a few weeks old and you had some issues on the way down.But just trying to put on BMW an "maybe" miss fix from a previous owner or mechanik is just unfair i think.
I am not a BMW rider today(used to own and ride the best BMW, R-80G/S PD).
And more i went from boxers into thumpers.KSAP(keep simple as posible)
I ride an 85 Tenere!(completely overhault)
One has to make choices,to much technology on an continent you maybe personaly don´t know much could be challengeing.
Those "hightech" bikes are like smartphones.....
I have met riders with 1200 GSA that did the same trip on brand new bikes with 0 issues.Others with drive shaft problems or blown shocks......
I would just add no person was harmed or injured on the trip? Just enjoy the tales and pictures.......relax and plan with easy mind the next adventure! Remember adventure means challenge!
Ride safebier

The family car does not get taken on rough roads for long distances at speed when loaded. The wiring system on the car does not get flexed through the steering head of the motorcycle. Ok it may have wheel sensors that do get flexed with suspension movement - bet they are replaced as a service item at some mileage.. it is not on the motorcycle service scheduled. beer

Most of the adventure bikes don't see adventure - thus bm and others get away with things. If you look at the paris dackar vehicles - you won't see much in the way of standard things. Some of this is performance related, but some is reparability and reliability!

Hi,

Yes the "customer care" of bmw was very bad to me too. I got a nice trowses for christmas (i would have got one at louis for a fraction of the price) but later the strings were it was sewed together opened and the trowses started to fall apart, in my eyes a factory foult. I wrote many emails and also went to a bmw dealer personaly but only got the answer as long as i dont have a receipt i dont get warrenty.

Anyway im wondering why people take such expensive bikes on trips while there are so many cheaper alternatives. The Honda Transalp i used to ride around africa no problem was worth less then $1000 when i bought it. The bike i used to ride around Southamerica too. Both were easily sold at the end to also save the shiping cost:

http://afrikamotorrad.eu/?report=en_transafrika

I hold thumbs for you, Tobi

My family cars definitely get taken on rough roads for long distances at speed--loaded and not, and at higher speeds than I ride my bike on those roads because the consequences of failure or misjudgment are less severe in the car. I get a few more flats than I would otherwise, and sometimes trash steering or suspension components more rapidly, but in the main my rather low-end cars and pickup trucks have been remarkably durable over the last couple of decades (it wasn't always so, I'll admit).

I wonder about the flexing-of-wires issue, too. I've got a lot of little wires in my car steering column, many of them attached to the wheel itself, which rotates a couple of revolutions in either direction. The mechanism is designed to keep them from flexing, fraying, breaking, abrading, and it works. I'd be shocked if it didn't.

I think a lot of these issues are choices made by manufacturers, and accepted by we, the paying customers. No car-buyer--much less an airplane pilot--would accept known issues like the KLR's balancer mechanism failures (or others you could name for any brand of bike out there). There's nothing inherent in motorcycle design which requires that reliability and build quality be atrocious, at least by automotive, marine or aeronautical standards.

Mark

I don´t think it´s a matter of being expensive or not. The Transalp was expensive when it came on the market in the Eighties, and folks used it for rtw back then, too, same with the Africa Twin, the Teneré, the 80G/S and lots of other bikes. I have an AT and whilst I have ridden it for 50.000km around Europe and like it very much, I´m at some point fed up with missing ABS, about 40 additional HP and a nice, comfy seat. Reading this thread whilst considering purchasing a GSA at season´s end this year does make me wonder whether to keep the AT then, however why in the world would I not take a comfy, modern, powerful bike rtw and choose a 20 year old, solid but uncomfy workhorse to do the trip of a lifetime?

I guess I should get myself a KTM LC8 990, which I just found out yesterday was discontinued in late 2012. Bugger.
Cheers
Chris

I appreciate your candid explanation.

Cars and trucks seem to be built to a different standard. The numbers and value allow more work to be put in and it shows.

My automotive work was centred round Leyland, a component of DAF-Paccar group. Leyland made 10000 trucks a year, basically bigger and smaller versions of one type they designed and another type DAF in Holland worked on. DAF in Holland made ten times the number of vehicles and Paccar in the US used a lot of the same building block systems. The smallest parts were technically the same as on any truck in the world, some with 20 years of usage. We got a new brake system about every ten years and made adjustments maybe every three. People buying the truck really expected it to work, we had vehicles that had run with four drivers 23.5 hours a day, 365 days a year. The buyers didn't care less if the next years version had radial upsidedown whatevers. Our trips to the Alps for wear testing and Finland for cold performance work were justifiable and included in the costs.

BMW motorcycles make fewer units than Leyland, in four significantly distinct types. They cannot buy the same components as other bigger manufacturers (although they are trying) and combine component development costs because no one else makes one like it. The market demands year on year changes and is caught up on technical detail, but the majority of it is never really used. Most BMW owners want to be able to talk about the ice detection system which turns on the heated seat via the improved CAN V4.63 with integrated non-wireless linkages. Few BMW riders actually use it every day in winter for hours and hours. Much as they are a boutique brand and can charge more, it isn't massively more and they spent the money on weird castings for a flat twin motor and funny front end, not sending bikes out on test.

Nissan or Ford have the same development costs spread over multiples of ten more vehicles.

I would worry less about your car or truck, it is designed and tested for the 99th percentile user. I would buy your bikes from the biggest manufacturers or ones that gave themselves the easiest development tasks by running that heated seat off a switch, not via a decision point in the central CAN node that also has the authority to kill the ignition to avoid any risk of burning a lawyers ****. I never buy a bike that someone else hasn't tried to break first in the real world, which means the model wasn't launched this year. They could design a bike with both the features and reliability but the market would never accept the price.

Andy

So what you're saying really is that people like Kev (the OP) are doing BMWs testing for them in more rigorous conditions than you'd generally find in Europe and they also have to pay for replacement parts out of their own pocket when they go wrong.

Win-win for BMW but it does rely on us, the user, being daft about bikes, unlike the truck fleet operator who simply has to make a commercial decision.

Everyone talking about the more general theme has gone to the pub!
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ravel-on-70769

See post number 49 in here for the status of CANbus technology as fitted to BMW motorcycles:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...enture-70391-4

Perhaps this thread should be in the BMW tech forum; it doesn't relate to "which bike" and because BMW is leading where other manufacturers will tend to follow.

Some of the earlier posts remind me of the last time I was inside a Citreon workshop (one of those smaller ones where you can talk directly with the mechanics); the more junior staff were cursing the electronics and the readouts on the diagnostics equipment while the "old hand" was bemoaning how he was going to break the bad news to the car owner who had absolutely no idea what lies under the bonnet.

my 1200 gs also has electrical "issues"
 

<Hi there!
on my bike the problem is the fuel indicator (AKA "fuel strip") in the tank.
Two years ago, while on the road, I started getting erratic readings about the amount of fuel in the tank. BMW blamed some additives in the fuel that may have short circuited the "strip", and replaced it for a new one at no charge. One year later, readings got erratic again. BMW guys said they would replace the strip again, as it was under warraty. Two days later they phoned to say they needed some more time cause they had changed the strip 3 times (2 were new and one from another bike) and none worked. A week later they still did not find out what was wrong. 10 days later they said it was my fault because I had too much "non original stuff" on the bike (one HID lamp, two PIIA halogens, and a set of Hella horns) causing the wiring to fail. As none of these accesories were connected directly to the wiring, but to the batt by means of relays I did not buy their "diagnosis", so I told them to disconect the fuses from these parts and to test the strip again.... AS EXPECTED IT DID NOT WORK!
A long weekend approached, As I had in mind to make a short trip on the bike, BMW returned it to me promising to continue the repair upon return. When I left the shop, the indicator was as dead as when I brought it in. The next day, after refueling it started doing some weird readings..... at the end of the day it was working propperly again. (??!!) 8 months have passed since and the readings from the strip are still quite accurate. BMW guys have no idea why it does work now.... and offered to take a look, but I didn´t let them! I know it will fail again, probably when I need it most..... but what else can I do?

there has been a problem with the film type sensors and it is a well known problem within BMW, in the UK at least. I would not believe your dealer in him saying its your fuel or your 'non original stuff' unless it is directly connected to the fuel sensor wiring it should not cause a problem. It is a far overengineered design with one heater wire and one reading wire, the heating wire warms up and the reading wire changes resistance depending on how much fuel is in the tank. BMW has since updated the part but there was a time, probably when you went in for your second sensor, when the parts were coming from the factory faulty, we in the uk were told to test the parts before we fitted them with a multimeter to check whether they are part of the faulty batch. The new sensors seem much more reliable now. We have had a few customers come back for 5 or 6 sensors where we would fit new ones and they would fail a few months later. When we fit a new sensor we always tell the customer to go and fill their tanks as this fully teaches in the new sensor and the new sensors take a small roadtest before they register so if the guy that replaced your sensor didnt go out on it then it might be why you erratic readings when you picked it up.
BMW are slowly getting rid of the film type sensor for the more reliable lever type. They have removed the sensor completely from the r1200r model so it doesnt actually have a fuel sensor on that model also all the new models that will come out in the future will be fited with float lever sensors.

These sorts of things are annoying, especially on an a costly bike, but they occur from time to time on all makes and at least it doesn't stop you going.

It sounds as if BMW are doing something about this particular problem, however, it doe make you wonder how many other parts are equally overly complicated. Not directly related but one of my main irritations with the building industry suppliers is that too many simple products are designed by people sitting in front of drawing boards who don't have a single days hands on experience on site. As a result I can waste 20 mins trying to make a simple plastic clip do the job it's meant to do.

Hi Tony,
I agree with you, but when (t least in my country) you go to BMW with this problem, the guys look at you as if you were mad, cause (they say) THEY HAVE NEVER HEARD ABOUT IT! Only after putting them under pressure they change their attitude and accept considering the complaint. On the other hand, I cant get why they had to go for SUCH a weird system. I read about how this system works.... and it cant be more complicated: the gauge under the front fender reads the air temperature. Based on this info, the sensor strip is heated some degrees up, A second sensor on the same strip then measures the impedance of the fuel. this value is sent back to the computer, which then calculates the amount of fuel based on a given impedance, at a certain temperature, and a certain fuel density. There are much simpler ways (perhaps too simple for a BMA engineer!) like putting an electronic weight cell inside the tank. This plus the air temp reading (the warmer the fuel, the lighter it is) can give very precise readings with no moving parts nor rocket science technology....

I agree with you about the trend of making things unnecessarily complicated. On the other hand, 2013 models of 1200 (GS and R) still have the fuel strip in their tanks, reason for which I did not get a new bike this year, as planned!

Considering the 1200 GS is supposed to be a bike for on - off road travelling (yes, most have never been on a dirt road), certain things could have been made on a more simple way; like the fuel indicator... BMW has removed the old (and very useful) tap at the bottom of the tank: in most models, if your indicator doesen´t work propperly or the yellow reserve light is burned, there is no second chance... the tank is empty for good:oops2: As a counterpart, the "obsolete" technology , gave you some spare km by just turning the tap to "reserve"

The fuel reading is only taken initially when you first start the bike up, factors like starting your bike on the sidestand could give a miss reading. Then for the most part the engine control unit works out how much fuel it is using and that is what your fuel gauge actually works on, not a reading from the tank.

2013 R1200 GS Adventures and RT's still have the film strip installed.
2013 R1200 GS uses a float type lever sensore
10/2012 onwards R1200 R no longer come with any fuel level sensor

The fuel strip sensor is not for the users convienience. Different tanks on different models would need different lever arms. BMW pay more as the tooling and set up cost for each lever is split over fewer parts, they have more parts to administer and their stock levels are higher. The temperature sensor is used by multiple other systems, so the cost is split down over every single vehicle. If one strip can go in every single tank and they only change a line of software for each variant it is again cheaper to make.

The whole design ethos of CAN is one piece of hardware per function regardless of where it physically sits, variants by software and as little copper between them as possible. A manufacturing benefit with a few weight savings and dealer service considerations thrown in.

Andy

Isn't the overall design philosophy dexcribed here to eliminate use of mechanical fuel "senders" and use electronic based systems instead, with no moving parts?

I well remember that the fuel sender for my Yamaha XJ900 Diversion was notorious for failing. On the other hand, the shaft drive was reputed to be very reliable.

I can only speak from my own personal experience. I would not buy another BMW. I've had four, three new and one used. I'll make it short(ish) as the more I think about them the more my blood boils! I had an F650GS which I bought new in 2004. The bike would cut out on the over run and would take an age to start. It cut out in London traffic on roundabouts and on the last occasion, whilst filtering between lanes 2 and 3 of the M4 in rush hour traffic. On that occasion I was nearly killed. The dealer had the bike in their possession more than I had it in mine. As the bike was new I wrote to the dealer and BMW UK and told them that I was rejecting the bike as dangerous. I was offered a new bike or my money back. I took the money. A few bikes later I bought a second hand R100GS for an RTW. I spent a fortune having the subframe strengthened and other mods for the trip. In Northern Italy the gear lever return spring broke and final drive began leaking. The bike had covered 18,000 miles. The next BMW was an R1150RT which I bought new. The clocks steamed up in heavy rain and there was a fault with ABS light which randomly illuminated. PX'D this for a new 1200GS. Ignition faults, final drive leaks and failure of the servo brakes. Corrosion on the alternator cover, engine casings, frame and wheels after 6000 miles and five months. My NTV650 was half the cost of the 1200GS and completed in excess of 100,000 miles without fault. My Africa Twin (which I've owned for ten years concurrently with other bikes) completed 157,000 miles without any major issues.

"I am sorry sir, but for riding off asphalt on a BMW you are required to have the obligatory TKC80 tyres on your bike. Unfortunately, as you had the Anakees at the time of the incident, your warranty doesn't cover this.

But the good news is that we can get you a new swingarm, drive shaft and tension strut in 4 weeks for £2500 - plus labour of course, which is £100/hour plus VAT. We can check out the final drive, but if its scratched you can add another £900 to the bill.

Shall we book it in?"

?c?:oops2:

I'd say his tyre pressure looks a little low.... rider maintenance error leading to a snapped shaft...... obviously ;)

Sent from my HUAWEI U8815 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

"They all do that SSssssssirrrr. Might I show SSsssssssssirr the new R1250GSFARTR Extreme Adventure while SSsssssirrr has a nice free capachino? They are only £299000 with the option to extend the warranty for £600 a year SSSssssssirrr".

You've got to admire the marketing though.

Andy

Just how much training have they been putting you through Ted? :eek3:

Not that long ago you were always on here "sticking it to the man". I'm beginning to worry that you've now become the man. :rofl:

haha

Don't worry....

I'm just working undercover..

Know thy enemy ;)

Phew, that's a relief. I just had this vision of a weekly meeting with the "HR manager" where he sits you down in front of a giant spinning BMW badge and in a strong teutonic accent tells you to concentrate on the light, you're feeling sleepy... :eek3: :wacko:

Just remind me about the BMW warranty policy again... :rofl:

Not quite.... Not that I remember. However, my watch did stop in my first day, I have a few missing hours in my memory and I'm sure there's something under my skin which keeps beeping:/

Sent from my HUAWEI U8815 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

I broke down with a faulty fuel tap next to a bmw dealer on my 1996 funduro......... zero.zero interest.
my advice...... buy a xt600, some spanners, and a manual.
KISS - you know what that means?

If BMW would make the old R100GS again, they couldn't keep them in stock

Most dealers would react the same. Not just BMW. A nearly 20 year old machine does not represent any profit for them. They sell NEW BIKES, that's where the money is.

Luckily, there are plenty of small, independent shops who ARE interested and would help with your old Funduro ... or old XT, XL, DR, KLR ... whatever. I love these small shops if they are honest and actually have skills and know the old bikes. (not all are are good) I agree .. and manual and spanners are essential, but help is out there if you need it! :D

They wouldn't be aloud to. They don't pass any laws anywhere.

Unless they sold them as show bikes etc.

They never will though. There is a reason why Ferrari don't remake their past glories. They devalue the brand.

In a way, BMW are going there. They're taking a cue from Harley and tapping into the sort of old school Cafe Racer Nostalgia thing. Harley re-invented itself using pure Rebel outlaw/pirate nostalgia. Unbelievable but true.

No, this new BMW is not a R100GS ... harkens back to those times.
Anyone remember the R100S? I'm speaking about the new for 2014 R Nine T BMW. (see below) Regards the GS ...
can a "re-made", modern, R80GS be far behind? It would not surprise me in the least. Bar bones, light weight full HPN Dakar version anyone?
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-i...aris-dakar.jpg

Check out BMW's R 9T Roadster (link below) ... and the video at the bottom of the page featuring some custom bike builders testing and commenting on the NEW R Nine T Roadster. Impressive. Once again, BMW use a million dollar movie to make their point ... and it is a point very well made IMO.

Very slick ... the Japanese could take a big lesson in this area. Their advertising truly is 20 years behind BMW.

(problem is ... many of same age old BMW faults still remain) :helpsmilie:

BMW Unveils 2014 R nineT Roadster - Motorcycle USA

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_...-studio-37.jpg

The nineT is nothing more than an old 1200 twin cam air cooled engine stuck in a simple frame with some forks off a BMW S1000R.

They are GREAT bikes but they are not a re-release of anything classic.

True, technically ... not new. But it's the power of "illusion" that is at work here. That same illusion that sold a million R1200GS's over the last decade.

Here, BMW are jumping on the Cafe Racer trend going on here and (I guess?) in UK and EU? We hear it's already successful, bringing in newer, younger riders to BMW ... which is exactly what they need. It has enough of what is perceived to be that "classic" Cafe look.
I think it was a smart model choice.

A revised, repackaged modern R80GS remake could do the same ... another illusion ... but could rekindle interest among riders who were around when the first GS's were popular ... and most likely many other riders from various demographic. Do you think it would sell? Or not?

I built some of the first nineT's in Europe. I had a good play on the ones I built too. Now you can't get them until 2015.

They were fun. That engine really is nice in a light frame with good suspension. Did it blow my world. Not even close. Exciting..... Nope ! A bit different...... Yes.. Worth the price tag. hmmmm.. Not to me. You could have a much higher speced Ducati or MV Augusa for the same price or less.

In fact, I'd take two bikes for the same price as a nice T...

Well, OK, they could go with PLAIN EFI to get around EPA regs, but reliable and simple go together............high tech is for the race track

Same here. The NineT is a nice bike, I quite enjoyed it when I tested it, but it's too damn expensive.
Would I buy one for myself ? Definitely not, would buy a Triumph Bonnie or a Thruxton, or a Guzzi Griso or even a R1200R, but not this thing.

But it seems that it's selling pretty well, so, well done BMW...

I wouldn't buy the R Nine T either, but it's apparently doing (or helping to do)
exactly what BMW had planned: Bring younger riders into the BMW fold.

If you listen to the CEO speeches to dealers you'll find this theme of an "aging clientele" mentioned. They know their customer base are dying off and aging quickly. The GS's success has helped with this a lot, but BMW know they have to go further. Hence a bike like the R Nine T. Getting guys like Roland Sands and several famous Euro custom bike builders on board does not hurt.

Ah ! Guzzi Griso! Love it! Here's the one I rode for a couple weeks back in '07. A great bike once you figure out how to ride it. (not easy!)
http://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/ph...-VjFVdG8-L.jpg
It's amazing the cheap deals you can now find on this first generation Guzzi Grisso. New, here in USA, they were about $12K usd in 2007. Now, I've seen them for $6K to $7K usd in perfect condition. Lot of bike for that price. You never see another one!

Well actually I'm young (23 yrs old), already a BMW rider (with a F650GS Dakar, and more than 50'000 km on the clock since I started riding in 2009) but even if I had the money to buy one, I'd not buy a Nine T, even if the sound is great, the style not so bad either etc.

The problem is that it's damn expensive, but without the telelever, without ESA, without combined ABS (maybe it has, not so sure now), without the ASC and the fork is from the S1000RR but not even ajustable.

It's a simple bike for a price tag absolutely absurd... but they manage somehow to sell it anyway...

Your Griso looked damn nice in red like that (those italian sure know how to design vehicles !). I've never tried a Guzzi but if the engine behaves like a 1200 Boxer I'd be more than happy !

Nine T is basically the old 1200 engine in a simple frame with a pair of BMW s1000 forks. They're sold out. Unavailable until 2015 so I believe.

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Almost ALL new bikes are expensive ... but BMW are certainly at or near the top of the list. Very expensive! Here in the USA BMW have amazing Zero interest financing and lots of younger riders go for this. (mistake, IMO)

Read my earlier posts as to WHY the R NINE T is selling well. Sort answer:
Image, status, cache'.

The Griso motor is a delight. A bit agricultural but entertaining. The chassis and suspension take some getting used to and require proper set up.

Also, the rider may need a couple weeks and a few thousand kms. to get used to it. It's very weird at first ... and most hate it. But after a while ... you LEARN the "Guzzi way". :rofl: Very different ... and no other bike like it.

When I had that Griso ... it drew a crowd everywhere it was parked. :D:D
(rode all over Northern California)

Here's a nine T. Got one stripped down on my bench today. Its literally a 1200gs engine in a small frame. They've been clever with weight saving and making components smaller. They abs pump for example is half the size than on any other BMW. Now why couldn't BMW do this with their GS ??