Carb vs Fuel Injection for RTW
 

On the one hand you have the performance of FI, especially in higher elevations, on the other hand you have the ability to repair the carb yourself in the middle of nowhere if such a need arises.

what to repair on fi,keep the fuel clean,use a good injector cleaner that is about it.

Take your pick of the views
 

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...b-vs-efi-56238

:welcome::welcome::welcome: to the HUBB by the way; a first post.

If only my XR250 was EFI it would be near perfect! Rejetting the Carb gave me no end of headaches and the performance was awful above 2,700m stock.

FI is superior to carb until it breaks.

What bikes are you considering? There may be "other" issues relevant to this. F.I. or Carb? Both are good. Both are bad.
You choose. Know your bike, do the maintenance. All good. But the bike matters a lot more than whether it's EFI or carb. bier
That is a good thread and expresses most all that needs to be said on this. If a moderator comes on he'll probably tell everyone to piss off and get reading on a 5 year old thread! doh

Isn't it interesting just HOW FEW of the guys posting on that thread ...ARE STILL POSTING HERE ON HUBB?
Lots missing. Now why is that? ?c?
That's a pretty good summation. Sure, you can change an injector but what about a black box? Broken wire in loom? Fuel Pump? Fuel pump hose/connector or battery? EFI can be ... complex.

Thanks everyone. I currently have a 2013 KLR 650 and a 2012 KLX 250, was debating just using the KLR or selling both and buying something fuel injected for the trip. Living at sea level I was concerned about what might happen in the mountains. The internet is full of info regarding the differences, but I figured this forum was the only place to discuss which is better in the middle of a third world country.

Said all that needs to be said on the subject? Moving on.

Know your bike. The more you know the less hassle you will have if something goes wrong. EFI or carb .. knowledge is the thing.

Changing a black box is easy. Being certain the fault is the black box is the problem. Does not matter is the black box is for the ignition system alone or the EFI.

Carb vs Fuel Injection for RTW
 

I was unsure about this question. Clincher for me was finding a motorcycle tour company in ethiopia who has just converted their ktms from efi to carb. I bought a klr for my 2016 cape to cairo ("when in Rome, do as the Romans do").


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hate carburettors. Full of poxy bits of rubber that swell and split and need a micrometer to diagnose if you don't want to do diagnosis using tea leaves and a ouji board. Set up is by witch craft and seeing if the engine seizes on the first run out, or consulting the spark plug colour gods to see if its a "bit" one way or the other.

FI is diagnosed using a multi meter, wiring diagram and logic. The ODB tool gives you huge clues as to what the machine thinks it is.

Parts are parts. If you can't get a microscopic brass secondary choke bypass jet for your petrol sucking can you get someone to turn down one for a different carb. If your BMW fuel pump goes you buy a Nissan one and bodge it on with cable ties.

There is no difference, only skills, tools and parts.

Andy

In passing, I have pondered on that very thought for a short while; I guess people die, or move on elsewhere etc etc.
We could all consider the HUBB to be our very own individual epitaths.

There used to be a very knowledgeable input to the Yam tech sub-forum from a contributor that I won't name herein; but that stopped a number of years ago.


Personal experience of this a while ago; the OEM low pressure diesel fuel pump for a Nissan costs over 300 GBP new (it failed at a leaking welded joint simply because the painted finish to the mild steel corroded); it was replaced with one from a JCB digger for just over 100 GBP.
The latter needed a bit of fabrication by a good vehicle mech to adapt the support bracket for the pump - OTOH, this might not have been practical if said fuel pump was built into the fuel tank. OTOH, the fuel pump would not have failed in this manner (it was leaking but still functioned as a pump).

I think this is the nub of it to me. I am an office boy with the same mechanical knowledge and practical skills as my dog.

Changing the oil, a tyre, a sprocket or brakes pad feels ok. Beyond that lies only phd rocket science!

I figure (perhaps wrongly) that i can sort of get my head round a carb with a bit of practice and that, if i cant, someone on my travels can. Im less sold on my chances of finding a local with the right diagnostics program on his pc.

I know this is different for those of you with skills but to be honest not only could i not rig up a fuel pump, i don't even know what the diagnosis tool is you are talking about. :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Someone's laughing at me. My daughter has just asked for help with her homework.......which is on electrical circuits!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kids homework is tough when you've had it easy for years. Tried long division by hand?:(

The most common vehicles on the planet are EFI. Diesel taxis and trucks but also scooters and small bikes. EFI costs to develop and design but can then be installed by robots ( or their human equivalents) . OBD is out there and the readers will do multiple vehicles. Don't imagine that the so called third world is still running Amals. The fiddling and faffing that comes with carbs may make getting a clueless bullet wallah to twiddle screws in the side of your multi banked bings easier than getting a taxi mechanic to believe his Jaltester will talk to a bike, but neither is a great way to spend a day.

I'd price up readers if going on a long trip. Messages like "open circuit at pin 15" don't really need twenty years of breathing exhaust fumes with your ear to the air box, screwdriver in the mixture screw and your lucky underpants on your head to diagnose.

Andy

Carb vs Fuel Injection for RTW
 

Feeling nervous now!

If only it was just long division by hand that i needed. A maths teacher for a mother and a career spent working with actuaries means i feel pretty relaxed about maths (at least until multiple greek letters and abstract concepts arrive). My engineering skills on the other hand reflects the utter DIY ineptitude of my (otherwise great) father :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Both good bikes ... and both are new! :thumbup1: You are spoilt for choice!

You must be in the US or Canada as newer KLX250's (EU) are F.I. USA ones still Carb'd. No matter.

Modern Carb bikes come jetted VERY LEAN from the factory. They are good at altitude. Most can go up to round 10,000 ft. before being badly affected. They will lose power (just as ALL bikes including EFI bikes will)

Over 10k they will begin to run too rich, rough idle, hard starting ... and even weaker running.

Easy solution is to open up air box. MORE AIR! Of course you can re-jet too but that's more work/knowledge. One addition I would add before re-jetting would be an extended Fuel-Air pilot adjust screw that is accessible. Very handy as you proceed higher.

Most Carb'd bikes have a Fuel-Air Pilot screw, most hard to get to on bottom of Carb. With an EXTENDED fuel screw, you can make adjustments in seconds ... from the seat of your bike. :D

Use fuel filters, keep air filter clean, change oil using GOOD oil, and you'll go easily 85K miles on the KLR, 40K miles on the KLX.

:scooter: :scooter:

I have two FI bikes, '10 Versys, '09 WR250X, and one carbed bike, '07 KLR. FI is way better. Versys makes about double the hp of the KLR same displacement. WR250X is almost as fast as the KLR with less than half the displacement and gets 70 mpg.

I wouldn't think about taking either FI bike to Ushuaia. The KLR is my second one. First one made it to 100,000 miles. I will be taking the "new" KLR to Ushuaia in November . . . and hopefully back.

Oh come on mate. Once set up and if kept clean most Carbs go YEARS without fiddling. I clean my Carb annually but really haven't touched it in YEARS beyond that. If you're a bodger ... then stay clear, let Mech deal with it ... but even in Bolivia, Ulan Batar or Mozambique you'll find someone to help adjust your carb. E.F.I. ??? Not so sure! :nuke:

Once set up ... Carb is DONE. Set up is easy on most, especially singles.
Quiju Board? Come on! :rofl: So much info available now, just not a problem.

DR650 CV Carb (and others of this type) can wear out certain internal parts after 5 to 7 years of hard use. My solution was to buy a spare (for $60), like new. I replaced whole Carb. Kept spare bits but never needed any.

I did have to clean fuel filter once in Mexico, but in 60K miles, no problems at all. You can plug up a Pilot Jet if you're not taking care of your filters. But a Pilot jet is $6 and takes 15 minutes to change on most bikes. (I carry a spare on the road ... never needed it yet)

I've only ridden 200K miles on E.F.I. bikes (VFR, Tri Tiger (2), Vstrom (2)
They all had a few issues that were EFI specific. (except the Tigers) Most problems throttle body related, servo motors, and reflash issues. Suzuki took care of the Vstrom on warranty ... Honda mech fixed the VFR.
Luckily, neither left me on side of road ... but were a PitA until solved.

On a BIG multi, I would take EFI, on a simple single, I much prefer a Carb.
It's so accessible on my DR650 and SO easy to strip if needed. Just a no brainer. Biggest positive for EFI is the much better fuel economy they provide. I only get 50 MPG on my DR650. A F650 BMW gets 60 to 65 MPG.
Trade offs! bier

Thanks again for the advice everyone. Quite a polarizing topic apparently. So I take away from this that the correct answer is "neither" and "both".

If one keep reliability questions off - an EFI bike would use less fuel and would be better at high altitudes. Two major advantages.

Usual carb diagnostic methods. Set up by reading chicken entrails, they'll only have had beef ones in Texas :innocent:

Andy

I continue to own two bikes; one of each to hedge the bet.

A win-win situation.

Most bikes with carbs have a petcock. You can turn you gas off or use your reserve.
If you need to you can take your fuel lines off and take your tank off.
You can take the float bowl off and see if you have water in your tank.

Years ago when BMW was still in the Dakar the first R1100GS that they ran had Bing cabs on it.

During the big twins era the Dakar was all about power, carbs did more power back then when FI and mapping wasn't developed so well as today, especially on low rpms old FIs weren't efficient. But what people still forget is all those factory teams had an army of official mechanics teams waiting with truckload of spare parts for them each evening overhauling most of the machine, making it literally new and fresh again in the morning, thus reliability wasn't a high priority back then, everything was played and optimized to just to get through the day of rallye racing at the time.

You don't race on travels.

Over 300 000 k, 6 continents and some over 80 countries (many with piss-poor quality fuel) with FI I haven't had a single problem. Never missed a beat or let me down. While over this time I've had to to absolute zero maintenance on it other than occasional fuel filter change. Plus it has given me decent economy and works all the way to 5300 meters above sea level.

Yet with current bikes just less than 8 000 km I've had multiple annoying problems with wife's DRZ carbs. Ditto with my old GSX carbed bike, or if fact all my previous carbed bikes had multiple issues I recall. Problems just keep arising constantly despite you spend a lot of time and care on maintenance, overhaul, filtering and cleaning, always with that irritating fuel smell in your nose and lungs.

For racing you can argue, but it's not even a question for me which of them is clearly superior for long distance travel use. I'd dare to challenge to count how many times people have had problems with carbs on the long road vs FI, I already know loads of stories with funky carbs yet just know just handful who've gone wrong with their FIs.

ABS is compulsory next year on new machines
 

Anyway, no new bike manufactured today is going to fit carbs as standard, apart from some of the stuff coming out of China with strange sounding names.

My FI machine is a few years old; the carburettor'd bike (I doubt that there is such a verb) is nearly 20 years old.

No one has mentioned float bowls that contain floats that don't as yet, so I thought I should do that.

I hired a bmw 650 dakar for one week to ride in South Africa (brothers stag do!). It developed a fuelling issue on day 3 - limped to the nearest town. Wasted a day while BMW 'fixed' it.

Set out next day across the Karoo - problem re-emerged. Sat in cafe for a further day in the desert whilst mobile BMW mechanic tried fix 2.

Road bike across Karoo in 39 deg C, still with fuelling issue. praying it wouldn't die and leave me stranded

Made next town, gave up and rental co rode a replacement 1200gs to me overnight.

Add me to the list of EFI failures :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I once picked up a women in a pub in Barnsley on a Tuesday night and after one beer we went back to......

Sorry, family site, I won't use than analogy:oops2:

Do you think possibly the bike everyone had nailed day after day without giving a hoot might have been past its best?

Andy

Despite living quite close, I've never been to Barnsley. Are the ladies there like the ones from Pontefract?

While owning both carbed and EFI bikes (At one point I owned 6 carbys and 1 EFI), I've had the need to fixed 2 non functioning carbs and 1 non functioning EFI. I managed to fix one of the carbs myself and on the other I had to get someone else to look at it.

On the EFI bike, I broke down in front of a Renault car garage in rural France. After I had removed the unit, the car wrench was able to diagnose the problem immediately (high pressure hose had a slight split, so that there was fuel coming out of the injector, but just not under enough pressure) and within 1/2 hour I was on my way again. The difference between my bike and the cars he usually works on, is that my bike has 1 cylinder and 1 injector and the cars a multiple of that.

What this little tale contributes to the discussion, I have no idea.

I have a very similar story about a rented BMW F650 that left me stranded in the middle of a 10-day rental. However, it was a carbed bike.

I tore the carb down, and cleaned it. Screwed up again the next day, and the day after that. Finally had to take it back to the rental place ijn the back of a pickup truck. :(

Having rode several bikes with both carbs and FI, I'm not sure you can really point at one or the other as being better for a RTW trip: they both have advantages and disadvantages.

My 500 cc Enfield does around 95MPG touring fully loaded. It has a carb which had never been touched from new in 2005. So I have no idea how long it might take to fix should it fail. Seems reasonably economical to me.
When I had the BMW it had two bings. I set them up with some small service parts and again never touched them for about 4 years when I sold the bike. Never any issues. Likewise on old amals on Triumph twins from early 60's to late 70's and on my Tiger cub back in the early sixties. Only time I needed to touch any of them in over 100,000 miles was when the cub needed a new needle for its zenith carb.

With the thunderbird with three carbs.... so far so good :) Did need to change a rubber bit recently (rear tyre split).

What I have found over the years is it is a good thing to monitor your mpg regularly. It is nearly always the first measurable indication of something going off test.

Carburetor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the carberator has been around since 1876 and has been used on every kind of gas/petrol engine since in one form of another (other than deisel and steam)...So it seems reasonable that no matter where you are in the world, someone if they operate a gas engine either knows or knows someone that can fix it....

As for performance, I wouldn't worry about doing an indianapolis 500 on some of the stuff 'out there'...for me I'd be concerned about proven-time tested-fixability-just-in-case.

IMHO :innocent:

E.F.I. and the future for ADV travel bikes
 

Great points on both sides of this issue. :thumbup1:
One interesting development that's fairly new ... and that could affect dual sport and ADV single cylinder bikes in the future ... is the use of EFI on modern motocross bikes.

Has anyone here seen a modern moto crosser stripped down? Anyone checked out how the EFI works?

The clever packaging and compactness of components and relative simplicity give hope that this sort of system could be adapted to a road legal dual sport single in the future.

It's taken the Big Four about 10 years to work the bugs out of Moto Cross EFI systems. Interesting that KTM were the LAST of the big players to go from a Carb to EFI on their race bikes.

Yamaha, Suzuki and Honda were out front on this and LOST many races early on due to EFI gremlins sidelining their bikes. Lots of documentation on early problems.

But in the last 4 or 5 years EFI "troubles" seem to be resolved ... although KTM's Super Cross/Moto Cross star Ryan Dungey was recently sidelined by what was probably an EFI problem. doh

By most accounts Moto Cross EFI systems are now bullet proof. This sort of usage is probably the very best testing regime you could have for an electronic fuel system. If it can survive Motocross, chances are good it will be good in the middle of Mongolia going under water with Colebatch and friends. :innocent: :rain:

Not heard much on technical side of EFI R&D for MX bikes, but having recently seen a modern YZ450 up close and naked, I was stunned how tiny, lightweight and compact the entire system was. The mechanic explained where key components were located and what would need changing if you had a failure and what that might involve.

Pretty simple really. Un Plug, Plug in new bit. Small box to test components. He said he's NEVER seen ANY failure of any components yet. :innocent:

Will any of this new technology filter down to street legal dual sport bikes like the KLR650, KLR Super Sherpa, XT250's, XR650L Hondas, DR650's, DRZ400S ??

It's clear that any "new" generation Dual sports still produced with carbs will have to up grade to EFI ... which way will they go? Big, heavy, expensive and overly complex systems as produced by BMW? Or something as elegant and simple as the system Yamaha are now using .... and evolving every season?

bier

Fuel injection is by far a better system for day to day running of vehicles.

It's more efficient, more economical and semi-self adjusting. It's mostly very reliable and the technology is well established. Solid state electronics very rarely go wrong.

BUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!! And this is no small but !! LOL

This only stands true where you are in a modern civilised world where there is a garage every 5 miles, a pocket full of recovery companies, mobile phones, next day delivery on parts etc.


Carbs, gravity fed fuel and natural aspiration are BY FAR simpler, BY FAR easier to diagnose and repair and BY FAR easier to bodge, repair and adjust, and any mechanic in the third world understands how it works.



Fuel injection bikes need fuel pumps and the electronics to run fuel pumps. They have servo controlled motors to let the bike idle. They need lambda sensors in their exhausts, MAF sensors in their airbox.


These are not things that can be bodged. If your fuel pump dies on half way down the silk road then you're going to be pretty much up sh*t creek. You'll be parked up in an overpriced hotel for 7 days while you search endlessly all over the internet on a crappy wifi connection trying to find out why your bike doesn't run and swearing that DHL want £150 to ship a £200 pump out to you which then customs will want 20% import tax on and you'll have to wait another two weeks for it to clear customs. If it's not lost in the post altogether. And unless you really KNOW it's the pump you might have to post out a controller too. It might be the TPS sensor though. Or maybe the idle actuator is dead.

If you carb stops working in the same place, a 14 year old mechanic with a few old tools will be able to find out what's wrong with it. Carbs are VERY VERY reliable if fed clean fuel. Injectors need the same.


In a nut shell. If you ride a simple FI bike like a 660 Tenere then you'll be very unlucky to break down but it will be more complicated to get sorted. A simple carbed gravity fed bike will be easier to fix in far off places but you're not going to get the same power and economy for the same size engine.


However.... In my opinion , all the best travel bikes are carburetorred. Not because it's better, but because that was all that was really around when they were made. The 90's was the golden era for travel bikes. Not just because they were well made, reliable, cheap and trust wrothy but THEY HAVE CHARACTER...

You can fall in love with an old Tenere or Africa twin. You can't fall in love with grey plastic, control units, and computers which pretty much want to ride the bike for you.. Which all the modern bikes really are.

So if you want an Africa Twin , XT600E, XT600 Tenere, Dominator, Transalp, F650 Dakar, KLE650, DR650 or XR650L etc etc, you're going to have a carb.


Wow... That was quite the rant.

Bikes
 

I used both FI and Carb during my RTW and I never broke down with a FI , the carb are fairly easy to fix and even if you do lose a bit of power at high altitude this should not be a big deal with a bike bigger than 300CC . Bad fuel and side road repairs on FI can be rough but even in Africa the quality of the fuel is getting better and better. The chance is your suspension will let you down before anything else

Husqvarna and KTM have run a road-legal ecu on enduros for a while.
G450X was also road-legal with 40hp, and as far as I know no other engine in this class have been made road-legal with the same power. (This is probably why CCM use this engine).

But most of the ecus run in a non-road-legal-mode, with a race-map and no lambda-sensor.

On the other hand, racing is not traveling. You don't change/clean the petrol filter every 15 hour on your traveler-bike. If a part lasts 100 hours on an enduro-bike it's fantastic, if the same part lasts less then 100kkm on a traveller-bike it's a disaster....


In europe there are not possible to buy a new DS with carb(s). I think Yamaha is the only japanes company that has a road legal single cylinder DS.

As far as I know most system consists of the same parts, and the weight is more or less the same... How do you find BMW's system more complex then the one Yamaha is using?

Back to topic: I use carbs for touring and efi for racing and even if efi is very reliable I will probably keep it this way.

Probably the best being written on carb versus EFI.

I don't like the idea to take apart a carb in the middle of nowhere, in dust and rain and try then to figure out how all those tiny parts get together again. Yes, it's a matter of experience. But how many EFI have died, compared to defective carbs?

Adv Bike Selection 2 | Sibirsky Extreme

Its a simply choice for me and there are 100's of pages on this topic on the internet.


But to compare a simple mechanical carb to a FI bike saying the injector is a lot less complex is not true as its all the other parts that run the injector you have to include which carb bikes do not have which makes them really simple and ideal over a FI bike when fault finding and fixing

I have never had to push a carb bike but I have had to push a FI bike a few times....... then try fault finding the fuelling/cutting out issue and replacing parts you think it "could" be as there are lots of reasons why a FI will cut out and rarely its the injector itself


On a carb bike its pretty simple to fault find a fuelling/cutting out issue as usually you start and finish with the carb when looking :D

You can repair a carby problem or breakdown on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, do that to a FI system.

You can bodge FI just as well. You can bodge anything. I'm not saying it's easy, but where there is a will there's a way. We could explore that some more. What besides pressure and a throttle sensor does it really need to run on the average fuel map?

Anyway, point if that you rarely have to. How many cars have big FI problems. I never have on any vehicle I've owned or sat in/ on.

Can and have mate. I love it when my bike's brain turns itself off when I put it to the ground. Particularly in water. But that's me.

BTW the F650 Dakar was FI. :Beach:

I usually have oldish cars and have had two pumps failing (both stopped me) and one injector-failure.
A friend of mine had a broken pump on a 990 ADV which spoiled his Morocco-tour. But still I see alot of benefits with EFI and it's the way to go..

I think you mean "road legal EFI"? KTM/Husky have had road legal EFI bikes for years (IE: KTM 690, EXC series)
Husky currently have NO road legal bikes in production in the USA. Under BMW they had the Terra and Strada, no longer produced. BOTH KTM and Husky were late using EFI on Race bikes. (at least here in Motocross/Supercross).

There are still MANY Carb bikes ridden and sold OUTSIDE OF THE EU. Millions in fact. This is the focus of my comment as some of the most popular RTW Enduro dual sport bikes use Carbs.

My point was ... could EFI Tech learned and developed from racing (motocross/super cross) trickle down to common dual sport bikes that still use Carbs? ... like KLR, DR, XR, XT once EFI is adapted to these bikes?

KTM/Husky had EFI years before and Beta tested their systems on Road legal bikes. I think the Japanese may go another way ... maybe the Japanese can IMPROVE on those systems over time from things they learn racing? Make them suitable and more reliable for a travel bike?

Good point, and something I would hope the OEM's can improve upon. Seems the Japanese are quite good at reliability and longevity in their systems.

Yes, but many Japanese Carb bikes are still sold in USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Latin America and other parts of the world.

Regards Yamaha: I think you mean Yamaha are the only Japanese company to make a road legal EFI single cylinder, dual sport bike? Yes? (see WR250R)

Because, as of now ... ALL the Big Four make road legal single cylinder DS bikes ... and they ALL have Carbs!

In the USA, this is true. But Kawi make the KLX250S with EFI world wide, but USA model still gets a Carb! :censored:

All the Big Four and KTM sell small (50cc to 150cc) off road bikes (for kids). I don't know if you have these types of bikes in EU or not .. ?? here it's BIG business ... and just about every one use's a Carb.

No doubt OEM's will have to change soon as EURO 4 and USA EPA regulations get stronger, more restrictive, EFI is only way to go except elec. bikes.

To achieve this, EFI systems will have to be very simple, reliable and cheap ... or NO ONE will buy them. :mchappy:

Look at a KTM 690 EFI system (I have) from 5 years ago, look at components, integration, packaging. Now compare to a brand NEW 2015 Yamaha YZ450F ... I think you will see a few changes. I'm no expert here ... But I saw the new system ... it's just seems a lot smaller, simpler than earlier systems from KTM, BMW that i've seen.

A big R1200 GS is a nightmare of complexity. But of course one is looking at many interwoven systems all at once (EFI, TC, ABS, Power Modes, Elec. Suspension and more!)

True, the Yamaha is a pure RACE BIKE ... but perhaps components can be modified to adapt some of the new tech from Keihin or Bosch to work on Road Legal engines??

So the FE350/501 isn't road-legal?


Edit:
Keihin is used for Road Legal engines, KTM, Husky...

Yes, you're right! Husky skipped a year or two when KTM took over from BMW ... very few Husky models around here in the USA for a while ... and NO Road legal models until sometime last year.

Now, according to Web site ... they've a couple of road legal bikes at least. Good news! But none of my local dealers have them in stock ... yet.
All about $10,000 USD!

Yes ... I know ... Keihin is also used in Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki. Both ON and OFF road.

Injectors seems rare but pumps are a weak link. They need adequate cooling. But on bikes they are not very large so a spare is easily added to the parts list.

Just out of interest are there any stories of bodging up F.I. systems to keep going on a trip out there? Anyone actually had to bypass sensors, lash up a (F.I.) fuel pump, fix a high pressure hose with chewing gum or a spare brake hose or anything like that? If so, how well did you understand F.I. technology beforehand?

Many people have been talking about how the simplicity of carbs are their strength, how it's easy to work out what the problem is, strip them down at the side of the road etc but that presupposes quite a bit of knowledge about how carbs work, the function of the various jets, needles etc and how the symptoms you're suffering from connects to some process inside the carb. I've ground to a halt with carb issues quite a few times over the years and spent many a happy hour cleaning out jets in campsites. If nothing else it passed the time until I eventually worked out it was an ignition problem :rofl:

Not so with F.I. though. I don't really understand the system well enough to delve into it with any degree of confidence. Sure, I can point out all the bits and draw a diagram of how it all works but deep down knowledge is lacking. I don't know much about how various failure modes manifest themselves so when it stops (only had that happen once - in a car) I'm in the hands of the "professionals". For the most part I'm dependant on the robustness of the engineering and hoping that whatever has gone wrong it's in a bit I do understand.

Many of the bikes that crop up in these hallowed pages have their well known weak points - AT fuel pumps, DRZs - a long list :laugh: etc and there's often an aftermarket fix for many of them but I don't ever recall reading about anyone dealing with F.I. issues or taking spare parts with them because "the coolant temperature sensor always goes at about 20k". If it does go what happens? Can I short out the wires with a paper clip to bypass it or should I use a resistor from my tent light.

Whenever a new technology is introduced it's quite often over engineered to start with to gain public confidence but then the penny pinching starts. I know F.I. is not exactly new technology but it is in the context of the sort of bikes we're talking about here and I'm not certain the stresses and strains of overlanding will have been considered much by the manufacturers during the design process. On that basis we should perhaps expect to have to deal with more of these problems as time goes on.

I agree. The general knowledge for most users is lacking. Which to me makes sense when you consider most people that prefer carbs grew up HAVING to fix them themselves because of financial reasons. During my childhood particularly as kids on mopeds. The FI became commonplace during the current "throw away and replace" era.

I guess you could disconnect all the sensors one by one and see if it wants to start to find out the workings in more detail. But surely this knowledge is already available with a few. As a minimum, I'm guessing, you need a computer, battery on most, pump to deliver pressure to the injector, working injector, a throttle actuator and sensor to provide air input and possibly the TDC sensor so the computer knows where the piston is?
I've heard of people strapping pumps and batteries to the bike as a bodge. Not sure about other necessary parts.

Instead of a TDC sensor you usually have a crank position sensor. Like the TDC-sensor on a carbed bike it will stop the engine totally if it fails.
Some bikes also have ride-by-wire which I think it's pretty hard to manage without.

Excellent points! :thumbup1:
I've had a few issues that were dealt with ... not really bodging up a fix or anything technical ... and I knew very little about EFI beforehand ... just a few internet words of wisdom from bike forums.

One case my Vstrom (running rough, would barely start), I simply "re-set" ECU back to default setting .. this by simply disconnecting the battery. Worked for a while but problem returned. Dealer dealt with it.
Secondary butterfly controls were dirty, draggin ... or some such. (crap air filter on Vstrom)

Another time, broke plastic high pressure fuel hose connector while removing the tank doh happened at home. BMW riding buddy had it happen on the road. Bike went home in a truck. I simply went to Suzuki dealer, bought a new hose ... fixed!

Also seen fuel pumps replaced on the road (lots of gas everywhere!) BMW riding friend went to dealer, $450 pump, all fixed. Turns out a pump from a Kia or Hyundai would have worked ... $100.

So no, no real experience bodging or using electronic trickery to by pass sensors or "fool' ECU. I've heard of BMW guys who carry a little magic box to access EFI/ECU computer. These boxes can: display and clear fault codes, re-program certain parameters. Very handy! Not sure how far you can go with such a device, but better than nothing I guess? :innocent:

I think the more important point is that, when "on the road" one is more likely to find a common mechanic who can deal with a carb. EFI? perhaps ... but for sure carbs are well known system.

General vehicle electronic comments

Components rarely fail. The loom is the usual culprit so just buzz it out with a meter. The fuel pump has a motor which can be jumped to the battery. It'll buzz or it won't. The injector is just a solenoid which can be tested in pretty much the same way.

Diagnosis is just like a carb at this level, you think of reasons it isn't normal and test them out. Put the reader on and it gets way easier.

The ECUs are usually wrecked by welding, water or crappy connection. If its ****Ed open it up and look for damage. They are often just burnt out between plug and circuit board. Never call the ECU a brain. We charge the yokels a disposal charge to empty the old parameter files out of the brain on top of the reset and calibrate.

Andy

Something I knocked up at lunchtime

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Part of this which fits on my phone

https://picasaweb.google.com/1044429...eat=directlink

If only there was a known to work OBD2 phone app, but that'll come. This will let a car mechanic read the ECU

http://www.amazon.co.uk/OBD2-Connect...ords=fiat+obd2

Andy

Maybe a bit out of context, but I have been reading a report written by the AA. It seems modern cars are getting more prone to breakdowns due to the electronics. I know much of it isn't there by choice, but to meet emission requirements but it is worth thinking about.

AA patrols are human. Like rest of the industry they include a lot of people who were raised to be terrified of black boxes. They tell the punter " you'm be wanting a new brain in that missus " and tick the box in their management system accordingly.

We reject 99% of claims on the electronics I work with. They are changed unnecessarily and disturbing the loom gets them going until next time. Typical would be the main axle modulator. A grands worth of electro-pneumatics. They have air coming out of the exhaust because a fifty quid parking valve down stream is dirty. Change them and the brand new O-rings in the pneumatic bit slow the back feed and the crap its been fed has some clean new passages to gunk up. Give it a year an you'll be fitting another.

The industry is not helping itself. Putting on a huge red warning display because the ashtray is full or the radio can't pick up Chris Evans is a great money making scheme but not really what we want. BMW saving you from a flat battery by not letting you run a tyre compressor is a great example and will lead to people calling the AA.

Know your vehicle and carry the right tools IMHO.

Andy

I would still dare a guess, that all else being equal, a new car gets a higher mileage before any major engine- or other overhauls are required, than a car from 20-30 years ago. The amount of electronics has skyrocketed, and yes, anything built by man can sometimes fail, but considering how common they are these days, they seem to work quite well actually. And in the meantime, mechanical reliability has gone up all the time. (The quality of today´s engine oils is also a factor here).

For me, it´s FI, and no carbs no more, I don´t hate them, but I don´t miss having to fiddle with them.

Why is every one on about fiddling with carbs. once set ( and they usually come set from the factory that it.

I was a service rep for a computer company from the late sixties until 1989 doing 50,000 miles a year. In all that time I never touched a carb and still haven't until this year when I had to replace the rubber joint between carb and inlet manifold on my 1989 Fiat tipo which has NEVER broken down. Neither did my wifes 1989 fiat Panda which we traded in two weeks ago having had it from new. Never even had the rocker cover off.

I fact I have never had a roadside breakdown except for a Volvo estate I had for 3 months. (engine management failure) Most unreliable and dangerous car I ever owned.

Based on ~15 years with carb´d bikes only first, and then got my 1st FI bike in 2003, and actually sold my last carb´d bike last year, it has been my experience, that carbs are more often in need of some kind of ´fiddling´. Re-jet for altitude, or bear running very poorly (have a set of plugs nearby, too in that case)... run them dry before storage, adjust their balance on multi cylinder bikes, work with the fast idle knob on cold starts, clean them up, etc. etc. It´s not that they don´t work, they do their job. But for me, the decisive factor is: FI does this same job better in just about every way (throttle response, cold starts, fuel economy, quick&clean adjustability). And regards the “what if it breaks”-argument: in my own experience, FI seems extremely reliable. Let´s not forget here, that practically every new four wheeled vehicle on this planet has had FI for at least 10 years (..or probably 20 years actually).

Fuel pump giving up? Ok, that may be a valid concern. So I´d carry a spare, if I was to go RTW. In fact I´ve owned an Africa Twin 750, and this bike was known to have issues with fuel pumps, so it would definitely need to have a spare one carried. That bike is not fuel injected, by the way....

All this is a bit like wondering, if one should move on to disk brakes or stick to drum brakes. What does older technology offer, that new tech does not? (Except of course, some are much more familiar with that older tech). Besides, FI is not even "new tech" any more, should probably say just "different tech".

I think its all a reasonably fair argument here Ted EXCEPT ... and its a BIG EXCEPT ... is the difference in frequency that carbs need maintenance vs how frequently FI needs maintenance. By skipping that critical, game changing, area of the topic, you have effectively bypassed the main debate.

No one is arguing that a carb is not easier to fix when broken - however dont kid yourself that they can always be fixed. I know of a carbed bike riding the trans siberian home because of broken needles not "capable of being fixed by 14 year old mechanics in any town".

The counter argument to the easier to fix advantage of a carb is the fact that you almost never have to fix EFI. See Margus's post where is compared 300,000 trouble free EFI kms all around the globe over half a dozen years, vs 8,000km with carbed bikes. (http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...2-2#post506978) I also have around 200,000 km of EFI global (rough) riding under my belt (at least 60% off road) and also strangely never touched the injectors, never touched the black boxes.

A balanced viewpoint has to look at both sides of the argument. Its not only thats its more fuel efficient. Its not only that its better at high altitudes. The MAIN advantage of EFI is that it just works. Its simpler, its more logical, and its infinitely more reliable.

Granted its harder to fix if something goes wrong. Just like its harder to fix a mobile phone than an abacus. It doesnt justify taking an abacus on your trip - because any 14 year old with woodworking experience can fix it.

I currently have three bikes. Two EFI and one carbed. I am looking at ways to convert the carbed bike to EFI.

The equation for the uninitiated is as follows:

You have one system which needs constant maintenance and is less efficient (which also ultimately means heavier) - but its easier to fix when it needs fixing.
You have another system which almost never needs attention, is more efficient, lighter and far less restrictive, but is harder to fix when something does go wrong.

A perfect analogy is CDI ignition vs points. You can reset your points every day, but you cant fix black box ignition. The question is do you actually ever need to fix CDI or electronic ignition?? Is resetting points every day really necessary?

Who votes for points?

There are another couple of downside of carbs ... for carbs to work, the fuel either needs to be carried higher than the carb or you need the same weakest link part - a fuel pump.

If you carry the fuel higher than the carb you lose two things:
(1) low weight distribution. Most EFI bikes these days have tanks under the seats. Carbed bikes have tanks above the seat and in front of your nuts. Long distance tanks on carbed bikes make them very top heavy.
(2) Water crossing ability. Low carb (and very low carb breather hoses) result in lower fording depths on carbed bikes. Maybe not an issue for many, but for me, and loads of marginal water crossings on every adventure ride, that in itself is a huge deal and a major factor to consider.

I dont expect everyone to agree with me or my arguments, but you cannot ignore the multi hundreds of thousands of km of empirical evidence of myself, Margus, people like Simon and Lisa Thomas, Joe Pichler .... people who have racked up hundreds of thousands of non stop adventure kilometres .... just do not find themselves ever touching the EFI system. Thats the reality. Thats the real world evidence. That has to be taken into account. The theory arguments about EFI vs Carb are all great and its all important for new adventurists to hear ... but whats actually the reality? What actually happens to people in the real world in remote places with EFI bikes?

Nothing. They wake up. They press the red start button. The bike goes. All the scare stories in the world do not actually counter reality (unless the reader is vulnerable to scare stories in the beginning). Its not like no-one has done it before. Its not like taking EFI bikes on remote adventures is a new concept that we have to debate the pros and cons of. Its been happening for 20 years. The results are in. The vast majority of bikes crossing Africa or Eurasia are EFI bikes. It works !

Maybe its just me. I never was a big one for other peoples opinions. Every opinion is subjective. Its all twisted and biased. There is nothing objective about an opinion. But statistics are raw. Beginners coming into this debate and confused by the different opinions would be well advised to focus less on opinions and look at real world data.

What actually happens in the real world? What bikes are doing what trips and what issues did they have. Find (independently) 10 examples of people who have done trips like the one you plan. Look at the results.

+1 :thumbup1:

Mechanical FI is old technology. Goes back to the 1890's but really got going in the 1930's. It's part of why a Messerschmitt howls (plus supercharger) and a Spitfire coughs and splutters at the top a loop as the carb switches floats.

EFI is 1960's technology productionised in the 1980's. Think of all those VW Golfs and Jettas that broke down all over the place. Austin Allegros had carbs!

Andy

:D:D:D

You owe me a coffee.

I sure don't miss the panic of fuel pissing out of the carb when the thing is on its side. A very realistic scenario for most.