BMW or Yamaha?
 

Hi everyone, i'm new here. right, i'm looking for a bike to do a RTW leaving in january 2010, the trip takes me from europe down through africa, up central america, then across from south east asia, through russia and eastern europe, back home. i'm completely stuck between a gs, pre-2000, seems to be my favourite as it is a little lighter and doesn't have all those bells and whistles i don't need, or a yamaha xt600? the yamaha is better off road, and is lighter, easier to fix, but the BMW is superior on tarmac, more powerful and far more comfortable on the long tarmac roads. plus the BMW is more expensive to buy in the first place. any ideas? will the xt take thousands of miles of tarmac easily? or will the BMW break down too often?

Hi Guys,

I'm in the same position - BMW F660 GS or Yamaha XT 660 Z Tenere. The bike will be used to commute to work and (hopefully) trips away to exotic destinations.

regards

Shaun

Both bikes are obviously capable of it, but I would go with the Yam. My XT600E just keeps going no matter what I throw at it. Not much fun on motorways due to the lack of weather protection, but who wants to ride on motorways?

BMWs do nothing for me either, but undoubtedly good bikes. If you like that sort of thing.

Matt :)

Test ride.

Looking at specs is pointless at the end of the day, although I do it, too!

Find examples of each that you can afford and would be willing to pay for and test ride. If not those, then similar examples...

It's the only way to actually know if the bike suits you in the slightest...

Most people riding around the world ride 9X% tarmac.

The BMW is clearly best for tarmac and IMHO the difference when driving offroad with luggage the difference is not that big.

I would have picked up an airhead….

[quote=AliBaba;243567]Most people riding around the world ride 9X% tarmac.

The BMW is clearly best for tarmac [quote]

A) True

B) Really? I think it depends on the tarmac. Would still rather have the XT on rough or twisty tarmac. More fun. But that's a personal opinion.

Matt :)

No, it's to slow :devil:

When you said pre-2000 GS, do you have a specific model in mind? The F650 (single), R1100-1150, or the older R80GS? Am I missing any?

Depends how you ride it! (i.e. not like me!) :)

Haven't ridden the XT or the F650 so can't comment but having done two separate long trips on a GS1150 and a Suzuki DR650SE, I'd do it all again on the DR. If you're going solo, I'd definitely take a 600-650cc, if going two up, something larger is required. The DR was surprisingly good on the German Autobahn on the way home, but Europe was the only place where I felt I needed to ride fast (ie 120kph) to keep up, everywhere else, the traffic generally goes much slower and has more obstacles to avoid...

My '95 F650 was fantastic, that was a bike I'd have taken anywhere.
My '99 F650 was a low quality, overpriced, underspecced POS.
My '03 XT600E was looking good but I didn't get chance to really prove it.

Personally, after the '99 F650, '97 & '95 R1100's and BMW's support levels, my heart would be screaming get the Yam. My head says find the best deal and allow time to get to know what you've bought.

Much as I dislike the Bavarian Tractor Company's marketing lies, they are as good as anything else if you know (or don't know) your own bike (with F650's it's the waterpump). If you are a Ural mechanic, a Ural IS the best bike. If you get a BM, you need to become a BM guy, the badge doesn't make the slightest difference. Go for the one you think you can learn to understand.

If I didn't make myself clear: Get the Yam :innocent:

Andy

Thanks for the advice, I guess I need to book some test rides.

I'm a bit concerned about the seat height on the Yammy, the BM is no problem even with the standard seat. Also the BM looks "tame" whilst the Yammy really does look the part.

I realise that the Yammy will be great in the rough stuff but how does it cope with the tarmac en route to the rough stuff ?

This will be my first adventure bike, my last bike was a race tuned CBR 600, that I went round Europe on - I just want to head further a field now.

regards

Shaun

I'm 5'7" and can ride the Yams, they sit down a fair bit and the seat is narrow. Seat height specs can be misleading so go try before you buy.

Just noticed where you are. Head for Colin Appleyards, I was drooling over their Tenere last week.

Andy

parts?
 

Hi there,

good idea to ride a bike around the world. Did you ask about the 1100GS/XT600 or 650GS/XT600??

yours question depends also on your budget, because parts for both bikes dont cost the same and are not available in the same places. sure you can ride around the world on a GS or on a XT, but they will both need parts along the way.

beemers are considered in most places (outside europe and the us) as expensive luxery bikes. the xt is used by many locals around the world to go to work etc. and in many places like you will find used parts.

I rode an XT600Z Tenere around the world for 6,5 years and I know that XT parts are easy to find (if parts are available at all) and quite cheap.

enjoy and take the bike that you like most, and than see what happens. its your journey ...

mika

I think I may hate you....

Jealousy: it's an ugly thing, I know..... :innocent:

Mate,

I had to make the same decision but with the Dakar vs 640A. I went the Dakar because I was happy modifying for performance rather than comfort. Forget about people winging about waterpumps. I was paranoid about it thinking it was a Rotax issue, but found that 2 people I asked (on KTM but didn't target KTM riders) had failed water pumps. But they didn't have a weap hole, so had to drop their oil. Rotax allowed for it, and all you lose is coolant. Which makes it better for being out in the boonies. I gues other bikes have the same issues.

People are assuming you're talking about the Tenere, which I reckon looks like a grass hopper. Obvioulsly there is a date difference between both bikes in terms of styling, and not sure I like what the future looks like. Again that low fender.

The Dakar is awesome on the twisties. The geometry is great. Quality of the FI GS got better in later models, so if you'd go for that I'd go for an 06/07.

If you're talking about the standard XT than you'll find that they are the bike of choise for Brazilians. Large tank available.

I don't know the Tenere, which would mean for me that if it were me I'd take the Dakar again. It's done it for years which means all the little things found on world trips have been ironed out by people, and mods are easily found. There is also some diagnostic tools for them. The motor is brilliant. Suspension sucks, but needs upgrading on all bikes for a trip like this anyway. I prefer to look at it like a Rotax with BM bits. ;)

Not sure which BM you're fancying but just for thought... I have travelled USA Morroco and most of Europe on a 1200GS. Recently changed to the new Yam Tenere and wouldn't have a word said against it.
The BM is more comfortable and will go most places the Yam can go, but with much more trouble.
The BM is too heavy if you're considering spending time alone, it is limiting with regard some of the terrain you will be encountering (especially if alone) and in some of the more remote regions you will be hard pushed to find spare parts.
The Yam will go almost anywhere and is fairly commonplace everywhere when you require spare and or repairs. With regard speed it will keep up with any other bike, of the type overlanders use, you wish to mention but who wants to speed and miss all the hilights you have based the trip around. True you do relinquish a little comfort on the tarmac but this is well worth it given the fun you will have when the going gets rough.
GO YAM TENERE and get around 350mile to the tank

Thanks for all the advice, I really like the look of the Yammy.

Does anyone know the cheapest place to buy one in the UK at the minute (i'm thinking new rather than used).

I'll probably end up phoning round anyway

cheers

Shaun

Tenere
 

Try Ian Bell M/C's. Way way up north but got Tenere for £4500 otr.

Hi there
I been folowing this thread with interest and I was just wondering if you guys think that the new Teneere with injection is a safe card.
I have always thought that carb fed bikes is the way to go or am I wrong.

I myself is planing a trip thrue Africa and I would be nervus about injection.
Is that justified or just nonsens?

Good luck with your trip.

Hi Dogman,

Just thought i'd put my two cents in for what it's worth. I'd definitely recommend an XT as they're incredibly reliable but personally would go for the XT660R as opposed to the new Tenere (XT660Z).

It's basically the same bike, but it's lighter, has a lower seat and is a lot cheaper! Personally I'd say the only advantage of the Tenere is the larger tank, but given that you can pick up a 2-3 year old very low mileage for about 2 grand. Suddenly that Tenere's tank seems a bit expensive (If you want extended tank range buy a couple of plastic jerry cans!)

Buying an XT660R also means you can fully kit it for your trip for less than the cost of a stock Tenere.

There, I'm done!

I thought the same way, but recently came to the conclusion that carbs are only better if you do know how to fix them and where to get spare parts.

Also in the real world a modern injection system will probably outlive a lot of other parts on a bike and will give you a lot less headaches on your travels.

But then again, carbs vs. injection is more a religious question than a technical one and the real world decision is basically over with, there are no new bikes with carbs any more and because of modern regulations there won't be anytime soon (speaking for western europe at last).

So if you want to buy new, that means fuel injection. If you still need to tinker just get yourself a power comander :innocent:

Interesting.
Iam a mecanikal guy and like things I can see and try to fix and have a hard time t trust comuterfed info. Is there anything you can do in the midle of africa if the injection go tits up?
Or is the injection reliable theas days?

Sorry to go of topic

Carb: You can take every singe part to pieces. Whay you'll be left with is a pile of tiny brass bits and bits of rubber you need to know how to rebuild. They clog with dirt, they leak air, they go out of adjustment. When they do fail you get out the Big Voodoo book of carb tuning, slaughter a chicken, make a pentangle of the guts then start looking for the blocked jet, swelled o-ring, leaky float etc. If you are lucky the bit you need is in the rebuild kit. If not, you eat your chicken dinner and start walking.

FI: There are only three or four big parts which you can take off the bike and test. Most failures are wiring, fuses, blocked filters. When it fails you pull out the multimeter and/or take an injector out to see if you can cover your boots in petrol. It's all yes or no checks, no worrying about the taper on a brass needle looking worn or not. It you change the fuse, filter or unblock an injector you can have a quick smoke to get the petrol off your boots (and avoid plucking your eyebrows for a week or two) then be on your way. If all the bits work when off the bike you are going for a little walk as it is the one bit you can't get deeper into without a PC. That said, you can buy OBD units about the size of a 1970's calculator and a lot of overlanders carry lap tops, so could do a re-cal for say a busted exhaust or altitude with very little kit or training.

For some reason people think the ECU is going to fail. Unless you are a stupid actor and don't unplug it for welding work, the ECU is about as likely to fail as a carb body or the ECU that runs your spark plugs (or are the Luddites using points you can set with a fag paper?). You wouldn't worry about dropping a bike, breaking a carb body and carry a spare, so why worry about the ECU. If you'd never seen a double body diaphragm carb, you'd treat that like a "black box" too and I do understand people feel safer with technology they hope they understand.

Working FI is better it increases your range. Broken FI is just about knowing how to use your multimeter instead of the Voodoo Chicken carb leak detector. Vehicle fitters all over the world have been seeing Diesels with FI since 1897, so help is out there, but of course while they'll have FI rated pipe, they are as unlikely to have a Yamaha diagnostic kit as they are an AMAL rebuild kit.

As we are talking planning for a trip, learning about your FI is just part of the preparation.

I understand carbs, but honestly hate fiddling with ones that won't play. I've played with FI and it's way superior if you've got the manual etc. I won't be swapping bikes to get FI, but if I was looking for one it wouldn't put me off.

Andy

So, is this where I invest in a Megasquirt I kit for my Ural?

Don't tease :drool: having had a little to do with Guzzi's, an FI 1000cc Ural is IMHO going to be very very good. I'm betting we have to wait for more emissions regs before we get it though :( (plus another year because I won't buy anything with V1.0 software).

Andy

Thank you all for your advice, a fantastic offer of an XT600 came up which i couldn't let go and after last week feeling a bmw and the sheer weight of it, i had to go with the yam. It's coming saturday so finger's crossed!

I'm confused - XT600 XT660 XTZ660 XT660Z - all different bikes... seems to me that some people are recommending certain ones, when what they mean is (or think other people mean) a different machine?

I don't consider myself a Yamaha aficionado (just yet anyway), but admit to being a bit of a pedant - if you are talking about the current Yamaha Tenere, that is the XT660Z... any other combination refers to the previous generation machine/s.

I can vouch for it's robustness, reliability and ability in all areas... 24,000 miles in the last six months over every kind of terrain imaginable - never missed a beat.

xxx

hey Nick

same here I pick up my 2008 model xt660 z (unregistered) on Saturday also. I manged to get one in white - what about yours

regards

Shaun

SATURDAY PROMISES TO BE A GOOD DAY FOR YOU GUYS.
I've had my Tenere 660Z 1 month now (from new) and like JMo can't bear to get off the thing. It's great fun, reliable and will cover all kinds of terrain.
I'm sure you'll enjoy the bikes
Happy days!!!

BMW650GS will fail on you RTW..... Happens too often to ignore.

XT600E will chug on forever and ever with very little maintenance but it's not as comfortable or fast.

I really think the new 660Z Tenere would be absolutely perfect for the job :thumbup1:

In one word: Yamaha

• Yamaha is the way to go.

But I always like to travel more back to basic.

Good luck!

Really? I've taken two a long way without failing. But off course I did my homework and do ALL my own work.

Do we know what the weak points are on the Tenere? Rule number one (as adopted by probably most). NEVER buy an new release bike on a RTW trip. It's like gambling. Can't wait to see some on the road here and see what they're capable off.

With the new 660Z Tenere one must realize that it is not a Japanese bike but basically Italian. On good side is that it has Japanese Denso electrics, though.

folks, unless its a typo he's not getting a Tenere, so stop getting excited for him about his new Ten. :)

Sorry, dont mean to be rude but thats cr*p. thousands of Nissans(one of the most reliable cars you can buy) are produced every year just south of me in Sunderland, UK. this does not mean they are British cars, they are Jap, otherwise no-one would buy them.

The Ten is a Yamaha, Jap.


Pete

Hey - if it comes smelling of pizza thats a bonus for me

regards

Shaun

Picked her up today - been playing - despite the British weather.
Soo glad i went for the XT, i pulled up along side a F650 GS and to see the two togther there looked to be no comparison.

thanks for the advice everybody

regards

Shaun

Then I broke the rule... I bought a new Tenere last September, took it to the USA, and rode it 23,000 miles over everything imaginable (and I mean some serious sh!t x), brought it back, got it serviced... not a problem - the bike is excellent in every respect regarding a solo travel machine...

If you want a weak point, then the cush-drive rubbers seem to wear quite rapidly... mine were very soft after 10,000 miles - but the bike carried on right across the States and back again (another 12,000+ miles with the same rubbers in... ok, should have thought to take some spares with me x)

But that's it. It really is an awesome bike.

xxx

YAMAHA:scooter:

That's what rules are for I guess. I wasn't trying to point of that it would brake down, but rather that if it does brake down you're on your own (bit like beta-testing). Where as with a bike which is known to have common issues you don't and you can prepare for it.

Yamaha is usually good at crossing their T's and dotting their I's. I had an old Tenere and loved it. Did have design flaws though. One with no excuse.

Disappointed that Yamaha didn't push any boundaries with the re-release though.

I like the look of the XT with a large tank. Saw a lot of those as it's the Brazilian bike of choise. Doesn't look to comfortable on long stretches though. More suited to dirt roads.

I'd certainly agree that is a good point when considering any machine for a big trip...

What did you consider wrong with the old bike exactly?

Surely that is a contradiction? - I'd have thought by using tried and tested mechanicals/cycle parts etc, they are minimising the chance of any radical 'new' parts going wrong?

I'd suggest they took the best elements of the current XT range, added a few thoughtful touches regarding luggage capacity and access for regular maintenance, and topped it off with a big tank, screen and funky styling - I'd say they did an excellent job in that regard... (particularly having essentially addressed all the issues that most people preparing a 'naked' XTR for a big trip say they would like).

I'd agree - the new Tenere is essentially a big dirt bike that can tour (not a tourer than can go off road) - and therefore is certainly very good on dirt roads/trails... However, it is more than comfortable on the highway too - it will sit at 75-80mph all day if required - but as others have said, it's forte is to take the more scenic route than simply to munch the miles...

xxx

tenere......
 

Hey, if you go the tenere be sure not to put the yamaha engine bars and ali bash plate on or you will have troubles with it cracking (and the mount possibly cracking). Knowing what I know now I would buy touratech or metal mule for accessories. Have ridden the 08 Tenere from london to cameroon so far and the only bike troubles have been those accessories and not being able to find good quality oil until now. So far so good........

We went through 3 or 4 rear caliper brackets because the exhaust can hit the calliper when you bottom out. At first we though that couldn't have been the case, but it happened on the other bike as well. Fabulous bike still though. When we took it to Fraser Island it showed it's dirt pedigree too us.

Off course this is no contradiction. You can implement tried and tested innovative concepts from your competitors range as well as you own. With the WRR they could have used some of the electronic features to make this bike the flagship of their range which is should be IMHO. Things like the diagnostics equipment in the dash, and the automatic engine kill switch. Simple stuff like this. And the tank should have been under the seat. Especially when it's a large tank. So much easier to work on the bike like that. Batteryless FI with a kickstarter would have been nice. And upside down forks.

Keeping in mind that the bike is not for sale in Aussie yet, I have to ask. Is the tank a plastic one, what's the charging capacity of the stator, are the vibes less or equal to the F and the DR and is the fuel delivery a round circuit or a one-way type? Did a quick google but couldn't find it so I thought I'd ask.

They broke the rules with the WRR with great results but are underestimating the effect of this bike and let the results just waste away in the corner of their R&D department. Bit cautious. Like they're the other side of the pendulum of BMW which justs implements any idea they can come up with without really testing it.

I've spend a lot of money on my Dakar but would have sold it for the Tenere if they wouldn't have gone a more innovative route with it. Even though I think it looks shocking. :Beach:

Ah, that would be, as they say, a bad thing...

Yes it's interesting that the XTR has the diagnostics and adjustments in the dash, but for some reason the Tenere has to use a separate unit... noone has been able to answer that one!

Regarding the other elements you mention - it does have an automatic kill switch (if by that you mean if you drop the bike, the fuel injection/engine cuts out), and as for the underseat tank - Im not sure that is such a good idea? The Tenere tank is 23 litres (about the same size and weight of a Acerbis aftermarket tank for example) - easiy enough to remove for access (although other than to adjust the valves, I don't see why you'd need to remove the tank? - everything is accessible without removal) - One of the complaints regarding the KTM 690E and to a lesser extend the BMW 650GS is the ability to add extra fuel (easily and cheaply) should that be required - should anyone wish to develop an even larger tank for the Tenere, it would be a simple swap, rather than an addition and extra fuel pumps etc? That said, it will easily cover 250+ miles (closer to 300 if you are gentle) on a tankful, so I don't imagine many people would need much more capacity.

Kickstart might be nice as a back up, but I wonder if you would ever use it?! - and of course no BMW (or the KTM 690) has one these days either... there is a decent battery on the Tenere, you would be very unlucky not to be able to start that bike on the button. Smaller bikes (400s) that have smaller batteries and run a lot of electrical accessories (lights/heated grips etc) might need one as a back up, but I really don't think it's necessary on this bike.

USD forks are a mixed blessing - most people who complain of leaking fork seals on dirt-bikes are the one with USD forks? They would also cost significantly more, and this bike was pitched at the 'affordable' end of the price range? The stock suspension is actually very good for the kind of riding this bike was designed for (ie. all-terrain riding at 'modest' trail speeds) - if you want to go racing, you'll need to make a few improvements x


• Yes the tank is plastic - a double lined one (like a number of streetbikes these days) so that the surface can be painted (which it is) without bubbling.

• Stator output is just under 300w I believe.

• The BMW single is renowned as smooth, however, I wouldn't say the XT is significantly harsher although I have not had the opportunity to test them back to back. I was surprised how 'fluid' the Yamaha engine felt for a big single (I have an XR650R also) - although admittedly this is my first XT engine.

• Fuel delivery is a one-way type (if by that you mean there is no return circuit on the fuel pump/tank.)


I agree - I'd like to see a WR450R version of the new 250 Trailie as an everyday play bike, but perhaps this market (the overlanders) doesn't actually require such radical innovation and engineering?

Hee hee - it looks better in the flesh - depends on if you grew up with Lego, or Transformers...

xxx

Yeah..... I'm not buying that. I thought it looked more like a grass hopper though.

http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:...ova_Scotia.jpg

It would have looked heaps better and closer to the original like this (althought that's nearly an exact copy of the 3AJ but you get the picture I hope)

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/cro...ere_460x0w.jpg


Are you sure this is on the XTR? I thought it was new on the WRR. Either way. That’s the way to go with computers now controlling just about everything. Unfortunately mobs like BMW don’t like giving away their codes for whatever reason. Possibly because of the potential stress on their warranty systems. Good to see Yamaha not being paranoid about this. But why not standard on a travel bike.

I didn’t know it came fitted with this switch, so that’s a good addition than. Would be nice if this became a DOT required item.
I used to be tank size obsessed like most people, but accepted this not being possible (at reasonable cost) on the Dakar, and found I really didn’t need it as you mentioned as well. It’s heaps easy to carry a fuel bladder for the few times you do need an extra 10l. We got ridiculous economy out of our FI’s with 1l/24km on average and sometimes hit the 30km at a load of about 60+ kg through mountainous terrain. So about 400km range. Heaps really. Oddly enough I got better range when I rode her hard.
Which to me is a great characteristic.
The imbalance of adding fuel and changing the behavior of the bike just doesn’t make sense anymore than. So for me anyway it’s more logical to keep the COG low by putting heavy items such as fuel below the rider rather than in front.
I don’t know the setup of the new Tenere, but with the old one we had to remove the tank to get access to things like cables but can’t really remember what else. All I remember is lifting a bloody heavy rank (somehow it’s always full) over an airbox to get to whatever. And always being covered in fuel after having to pull the hoses off. So it’s become a relief to not have to do this anymore. The downside is the setup of the plastics to cover a fake tank which on the Dakar is not ideal.

I reckon kickstart should be on any bike that markets itself as a go anywhere bike. We did need it on our Tenere when our (admittedly) wet cell Yuasa died in the desert. We did check the fluid before at the previous service. And with the availability of batteryless FI it can now be back on the cards. I didn’t care about it on the Dakar because we have 2 of them, but if I’d be on my own I’d go with the 640A which has got one. Those and the DR were my only choices when I was in the market.

I’m new to USD forks but wonder if this is due to pitting of the chrome similar the common complaint of the Dakar’s forks. I’ve run mine with fork gaiters since I’ve got it and no problems at all. I guess I’ll find out, as I’m putting YZ forks on mine.
I thought Yamaha would/ should have gone more towards the hardcore 640A setup rather than the BM market. But I guess the Euro market wouldn’t warrant it.

I reckon it’s that market that absolutely requires that sort of innovation but the market that I’m picturing is not the market the manufacturers see except KTM. What is it. 60k km valve intervals on the WRR? All the electrical innovation. It should be the norm on a vehicle that is designed to go to the back off beyond. Batteries are usually a number one problem.

Just to let you know I had a voltage regulator fail on my 09 Tenere after 1000 miles - only symptom was the warning light, followed 5 mins later by the rev counter falling to zero (engine still running) then the multi function display shutting down then the engine stopping. Since the fitting of a new one under warranty I have done a 4500 mile, 15 day trip round the coast of GB with no problems,- I fitted a Givi top rack with PLX363 side carriers and V35 cases. Fully laden the bike becomes a little light at the front, with easy (inadvertant) wheelies off the throttle in 1st and occasionally 2nd gear. Bike averaged 63 mpg on mainly B roads and unclassified roads, covering up 380 miles per day in 12 - 14 hours. Seat gets a bit uncomfy after a bit, but never enough to have you in real pain. Rear tyre dead after 4700 miles, front still has 1000 miles left with the odo now at 6200 miles. An excellent bike and just as much fun to ride as my CBR 1000, without the risks to my licence.

There is a warrenty replacement for than, it's not the VR, it's the connector block. When these connect, there is a possibility that the electrical connections are fine, but the weather seal isn't. Some greese around the connector stops the weather, nad the connectors stay nice and clean.

What have you been doing ? 1st tyre got over 90000 and second one is down to 2mm with the bike on 15,000.

Actually there is one living in my Tenere. It hides between the screen and the instrument. It comes out after I ride for 10-15 minutes, but I am not sure if it comes out to let me know I woke it up or for a breeze. :offtopic:

Hee hee - I've been looking for a new colour scheme... maybe I should paint mine green afterall?

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/r...t/DSCF2801.jpg

xxx