VIN number on frame botched
 

Cheers,
I´m stuck between a rock and a hard place and I need your advice please. I had to replace the frame on my wife´s Transalp, costing me about € 3000 at the local Honda dealership. Now, after a few weeks, I have discovered that they have botched the VIN number on the brand-new frame. Two digits have been hammered in "double", meaning that the second hit landed a millimeter or so next to the first hit, so that the digit looks fuzzy and overlaying. Then they have apparently forgot a digit, hammered the correct digit ("E") over the wrong digit ("0"), two of the digits are way out of a straight line, too.
Now I will have to raise hell tomorrow and obviously I´m in deep shit. I would like to understand my options. As we are travellers, I have to expect controls of the frame number at border crossings. Will it be sufficient if the nummer is XXX´d and a clean number is stamped next to it or will I run in trouble sooner or later? Will it make a difference if I can get an entry in the vehicle documentation that the frame number was XXXX´d and replaced or will this be worth nothing out there in the wild? Obviously a new frame would be the right way to go but I don´t believe the shop will do this without being forced to by a court, which will cost me dearly probably.

I´m just so frigging frustrated.

Thanks so much
Chris

The only time in more than a decade, over 50 countries and more than 200kkm of bike travel than anyone checked the VIN number (or engine number) was at Cairo airport customs when attempting to fly my bike out of Egypt.

So, my advice, avoid Egypt, it's sh!te anyway, and don't worry about the rest.

I don't have a specific answer to your question about how to handle this, but I'd suggest that it might well be important some day. I finally needed a clear, unambiguous frame number to enter Cuba earlier this year, and I'm glad it was there. It might happen to you--at which point no assurance by any other traveler that it never happened to them will much matter.

Maybe tell the shop you're headed for Egypt (or Cuba). And if you paid by credit card, immediately file with the issuing bank.

I'll be interested in hearing how this goes.

Mark

I'd try, if possible, to take it back and get it corrected at the Honda dealership.

Otherwise, you'll be worried about it every time you come to a border.

It's not just the potential border crossing problems of course but also the saleability of said Transalp when you come to sell it.

Good luck with it all.

Don't know where you are travelling to, but the last two times I visited Mexico, they took a digital photo of my VIN on the steering neck as part of the border formalities. I would do my best to get it straightened out, but that's just me.

deleted

This is funny. I completely misread your original post in my pre-coffee fog.

I've needed a clear frame number dozens of times entering dozens of countries--in Africa, Asia, Latin America. You really need this settled if you're planning to travel with the bike. In the US, you'd also need this in some states (not others) at the time of sale.

My earlier response was about the engine number, which I've only needed once. Sorry for any confusion.

Mark

Having a frame number, that looks tampered, could get you all sorts of unnecessary hassle at the borders. Maybe nobody notices yeah, but then again you´ll never know, if or when somebody decides it´s a problem, so I don´t see one good reason, why you should take that chance.

If the shop screwed this up, then they should make up for it, plain and simple.

edit. It´s one thing if the number appears tampered, but if one digit is actually MISSING from the VIN number, so the number on your bike´s papers, and the number on your bike´s frame do not match 100%, that is a recipe for some very big troubles, if they ever happen to check basically anywhere. I wouldn´t have that, no way, tell them they better get that half-blind monkey off the numbering machine!

Was the deal that you bought a genuine Honda frame?
Because this seems pretty unlike Honda. Is there a possibility that you've got a frame made by some maker of replicas?

If this happened to me (in England), I'd raise it, with photos, with Honda UK. Straightaway.

So I'd suggest you raise it with Honda head office in Germany.

Eitherway, it definitely needs fixing properly.

Needs Fixing.

Any evidence of 'tampering' could be taken as probable theft.

Here things like frame numbers, VINs, engine numbers should not be duplicated.... the Police take a dim view of that (legally an offense - fines and/or jail time). If you get a new item without an ID number then you go to the local registration authority to get a number allocated to it. I'd like to think the same applies elsewhere.

Before you take it up with your supplier, go talk to the people that register your bike. Don't tell them what has happened, rather ask what you should do if you get a new frame with no number stamped on it. See what they say ... if they say it needs a fresh number supplied by them .. then go tell your supplier .. and that you want a NEW frame done all legal and proper. If they argue .. well you could go to the police and inform them ... think they'll want that frame back quick smart.

Botched frame nr
 

Hi Keks,
Repeating what others said, this is no jokeing matter. At several borders the customs have taken an imprint of the frame nr on Carnet or Import doc, I remember Pakistan Wagah Border and Syria.
I can assure you any cop/customs anywhere in the world seeing an iffy frame number is going to get a bit overexcited, and they don't take these matters lightly.
Here in Norway this would be a serious offence, in the same scale as document forgery, and no way you could ride on before they had checked you out, and that could take time. Because of our high import duties the customs see a lot of "free enterprise" imported vehicles with more or less homemade numbers, and this seldom ends well.
Can't imagine the situation is different in other countries, your workshop is at fault here, don't let them pass the problem on to you.
Good luck, and safe travels

Peter, in Oslo

Well, thanks so much everyone for your detailed answers. We went to the German technical vehicle inspection authority on Tuesday, which looked at the VIN, rendered it badly readable and provided a written statement that the vehicle was not identifiable beyond reasonable doubt. Went back to the dealer with the statement; he was embarassed, not having known about the matter, because the chap causing this had considered it not that bad and had not reported it up the chain; he immediately offered to redo the number.
We had checked with the authority before; it would be legally sufficient to XXXX the unreadable VIN, have the XXXX limited at beginning and end by a round "TP" stamp of the authority and then have the VIN restamped next to the X´ed number. Both would be entered into the bike´s title and documents. Whilst this would be making the bike roadworthy again, it could obviously cause raised eyebrows or worse if noticed at a random control or at a border, and we did not consider it a real option to carry translations of any such documentation in a variety of languages. In best case this would cause some hinted requests for additional funding of the local police...

Based on that we asked the dealer to exchange the frame, which obviously is a major mess again and costly. Being a lawyer myself I had already been consulting with my best buddy and colleague over the weekend, assessing our chances to get a respective ruling by the court, if this would prove necessary, figuring that we would get through with this with a good chance. In that case, obviously I would have involved Honda Europe to ask for help, too. So when the dealer did not call back last night as we had asked, I was ready to get this thing going in a more formal way when he called me on my way to the office this morning and offered a new frame. Apparently he had been talking to someone who corroborated our assessment of the border control problems.
I cannot end the report without one further statement: Kudos to the shop owner - it has most certainly not been an easy decision, he´s facing the music and there are not too many people outhere nowadays who will do without being forced to. He´s got our respect and we´ll be happy to continue to patronize the shop.

Anyways we´re utterly relieved tonight and look forward to have the matter fixed in a couple of weeks. The VIN will still have to be put into asteriks ** to indicate it´s a replaced frame, but the funny thing is that the replaced frame had those asteriks already, as the frame has been exchanged once before five years or so ago under warranty :oops2:.

This is now the fourth frame and I´m not sure how many bikes are out there with that number of frames.... We have not had an issue with the ** before in Eastern Europe, the Ukraine nor in Norway, though, thus it should not cause any concerns, since the new VIN should be clearly and cleanly readable and no trace will be there of a mistake, a cover-up or else. Coincidentally I looked at a 2001 BMW 650CS today (that funny thing with a belt drive), with mere 2.000 miles on the clock and being in pristine condition, which had a large-size, perfectly cleanly engraved VIN set in asteriks, too, and the owner, a bike collector, had bought it from a BMW employee in 2002. So if any of youre original bike frames has a VIN with a leading and a closing asterik imprinted, I´ll be interested to know about this.

Apparently our dealer (being in the business for a long time, though) does not have much experience with applying a VIN to a frame with steel punches. We´ll now try to find someone who can do this possibly in a way which is close to perfect, e.g. with an engraving machine, albeit I don´t know where to start looking. Can´t go with another try, though, next time there can be no mistake. So if anyone has an idea which sort of shop could possibly do this, we´ll appreciate any hint.

Anyways, thank you all very much; your advice has proven to be a strong, uplifting support in the last evenings when we were assessing the situation and the thoughts got darker by every passing hour!!
Have a good day or night, everyone, thanks again! See you on the road!
Cheers
Chris

An excellent result .. so far.

Don't engrave it! One reason why they are stamped is that even if ground off and re stamped .. the old stamped number can be found! Takes experts to do it, but it can be done to trace the original owner and prove the theft. It basically relies on the compression of the metal caused by the stamping.

Any person undertaking valuable work would practices beforehand. So a bit of scrap steel and have them stamp the number into that twice in a row without mistakes. Then they can do the frame correctly. This way they make any mistakes on something that can be cheaply replaced!

Suzuki, for example, has the same policy on new frames. Delivered without VIN, and stamped locally.

But the Japanese are very sensitive about their corporate image. Maybe you should point out to mr.Honda, that these guys goofin' around with the stamping machine are causing you a lot of hassle&headache, AND aren't exactly giving you the image of "quality" (for 3000 its fair to expect that)? They could fully well do the numbers at the factory, as they naturally do with all new bikes as well. Or they could do it at their European HQ. They've just decided to cut the costs here.

Excellent point, thanks. In the meantime we have found a well-known shop making a living as a Kawasaki store on the one hand and as a frame repair shop on the other hand. They have done this stamping a lot of times and will be able to make a decent job. It won´t look like factory, but that can´t be expected anyways and I´m ok with that. We asked the dealer to check with Honda Europe, but they won´t ship a numbered frame.

Thanks, cheers
Chris