I've got a serious problem. Importing process stopped but i'm already back in Netherl
 

Hi,

Hope you guys can help. My gf and I did a Europe - Cape Town trip on a F650 Dakar and Transalp last year. It took us 6 months and when we arrived in CPT we were able to sell the bikes. Since we spent so much time with the buyers we completely trust them. We sold the bike, received the money and flew home after 2 weeks since the importing process took a long time. That means that we also left the carnets with them. But now they e-mailed us that their customs agency says it's impossible to import a vehicle that is under temporarily import (carnet). So now we have a problem. They say that the only way is to ship the bikes to NL and import it back. Strange huh?

Anyone an idea how to solve this?


Thanks!

I always thought that the point of the Carnet was to stop someone selling a vehicle in a country without paying their import duties. So if you sold it in a country that requires a Carnet, you would therefore be liable to pay whatever their import duty rate is based on the value of the vehicle. I don't know if SA requires a Carnet but if not, could you not have just sent the carnet document back to the issuer once you'd left the last country that required it?

I'm afraid I won't be able to help you out on this one, but I know some people who have done the same thing as you. They also managed to sell their bike, but never sorted out their carnet refund. I'm afraid it's a comman trap in South Africa. They say it wouldn't be a problem, but as soon as they have the bike, the carnet refund is your problem.
Guys from Belgium had the same problem, check Crossing The Border - home
Hope you get it sorted out anyway!

Problem
 

South Africa does require a carnet as it's part of a five country economic union (Namibia, Botswana, Mozambique, Lesotho, Swaziland..?)
The whole idea of a carnet is to show you have the customs money for a TEMPORARY import of a vehicle. The money will only be repaid back to you if you show proof that you have RETURNED with the vehicle to the original country (NL) or it was stolen and/or destroyed with official proof.

So.... you sold the bikes and they tried to officially import something that's only allowed to be temporary imported. The customs agency is correct in saying that you'll have to export the vehicle (but not necessarily back to the original country) and re-import to South Africa NOT on the carnet. If you want to claim on the carnet, then the bikes will have to be sent back to NL. Otherwise it's fraud as it's seen as your trying to avoid paying taxes!

You sold the bikes, didn't pay ZA import taxes AND want to refund the carnets...? Hmmm I think that's Illegal! :oops2:

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong...?

Even here at the HUBB, there´s been some contradicting information about whether or not South Africa REQUIRES the carnet. ADAC´s webpage does show the South African Customs Union as requiring it, like Egypt and Sudan?

But in general: if the bikes were temporarily imported into a carnet country using a carnet, then I think it´s pretty clear, that they should leave within the time limit specified by the authorities, or else the taxes & duties have to be payed. And your carnet bond will not be returned, if you sell the vehicle in a carnet country.

I recently imported a Oz registered landcruiser into SA. We entered on a carnet, and it was no problem to import. Registration title holder never changed though, so not sure how that will affect the outcome.

I think there is someone on here called MotoZulu who might be able to give you more information.

All I know is that you CAN import a vehicle if it entered the country on a carnet...

You are a smuggler. Your bike is contraband. On a lucky day you will have your bike confiscated and a rap in the wrists, on a bad day you will be imprisoned, however for a short period of time.
One way or another it will cost you much more than the price of your bike in lawyers etc.
I would not go back to South Africa if I was you.
What an idiotic thing. you had the carnet de passage, dind't that tell you something about your rights and obligations?
Did anyone asked you to bring back a stuffed toy animal from SA that smelled strangely aromatic?
That would have completed the naivety combo, not to call it something else.
You deserve every headache you get.

I don't know what planet Xtrovet is on, but the comments above are extremely unhelpful.

As commented earlier in the thread, the carnet bond is designed to stop you from selling the bike without paying import duty in South Africa. If the purchaser is prepared to pay the import duty, then I cannot see any reason why the bike cannot be imported legally into South Africa, your carnet stamped, and then you can discharge the security on your carnet.

If the purchaser (or you) are not prepared to pay the import duty, the alternative will be to drive the bike to another country that does not require a carnet (Zim or Mozambique will both work), stamp the bike out of SA on the carnet and then re-enter the SADC region on a temporary import permit.

Selling the bike on a temporary import permit is also difficult, but at least you do not have the bond to worry about.

I am on planet earth, where ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it.

Wrong. The CdeP is a guarantee that you are not going to leave the bike in the host country. It is not a pre-paid import duty.


Wrong again. As a tourist traveling with your own vehicle as accompanied luggage your entry papers surely will say that you undertake to leave the country with your vehicle. Most often your vehicle cannot stay without you in the host country. You entered your vehicle as a tourist, this is totally different from importing a vehicle independent if you have a bond (CdeP) or not.

This is contraband, no arguing about it.

This is a different matter provided the laws allow it. But then the owner will be responsible for riding the bike out of that second country. Only way to do this is between borders. And you are not allowed to do a transaction in such terms.

What you are suggesting is a sort of de facto do-it-yourself importing. Things don't work the way you suggest although you may get lucky on occasions. That does not prove your point.

Did not get that one. Selling the bike on a temp permit is unlawful.

I do take exception of you passing judgment on myself when you have no idea what you are talking about Mr Matt Roach. If your idea of "help" is aiding someone to break the law, then good luck to you too.

Hola,

it is clear that Waztafel made a mistake. He came here to ask for help, because to solve his problem is not that easy.

XTrovert, your posts are useless to him, as is mine.

Good luck Waztafel, please keep us up to date here on the HUBB.

Time for a rum and coke.

Mika from Salta

Why are you guys ganging up on me? Because I said that this guy committed a felony and there is no solution for it?
Because I dared to suggest that he was stupid in doing so?
Why you guys have to express opinion about my post instead of you, yourselves, giving all that wealth of information that you are saying my post lacks?
There is no legal solution to this guys problem. Period.
My post was very clear, implicitly as to forget about the bond; explicitly, advising Waztafel not to go back to South Africa.
Are the posts suggesting new felonies a positive solution?
As per the subject of helping someone in need even if it is unlawful, I can think of a whole bunch of people needing your encouragement also.
Am I hallucinating, or Waztafel fessed in here that he broke South African law? He smuggled a bike into the country and sold it for financial benefit.
I do not think the HUBB should allow the publication of this and least the 'helpful' responses.
Where do we draw the line? "Accidental" smuggling is ok, what about "accidental" hit and run?

Not strange, but it sounds like neither you nor the buyers understood the legal situation and the correct usage of the carnet. More below...

Geoff, absolutely correct and very well said.


Pecha, absolutely correct.


XTrovert - Although the statements are accurate, this was a very inflammatory and unhelpful way to say it. Waztafel clearly didn't understand the process, but your comments are unsympathetic 'You deserve every headache you get' and sarcastic 'stuffed toy animal etc.' If he had fully understood what he was doing (i.e. was a smuggler), he wasn't a very good smuggler :) and probably would not have posted here asking for help to solve the situation.


This is probably the best solution, but even if Waztafel was able to fly back and drive the bikes out and back in again on a temporary permit, that might not solve the problem. Customs will certainly have flagged the bikes by now and they will be paying close attention to it. Getting a temporary permit instead of a carnet normally will require some sort of bond or payment of duty, which may be as much as the carnet bond. That's the whole point of the carnet, so you don't have to go through that at every border.

In many countries, you cannot come in with the bike on a temporary permit and then decide to import it. You have to do the import paperwork before entering the country.


XTrovert - People are 'ganging up on you' because they felt you were rude, sarcastic and unhelpful, so take that to heart and try to be more sympathetic.

Many people run into trouble with importing regulations and shipping, because it is a complex subject and every country has different rules, depending on whether they have a vehicle industry to protect. Try getting a bike out of Egypt legally by air even with a carnet - it took us days and much desk-pounding! The Carnet de Passage is also a complex subject, which takes 20 minutes to cover on the Achievable Dream Get Ready! DVD.

Taking the bike out of the country and bringing it back in on a temporary permit is not a felony. Selling it may be illegal (though not necessarily a felony), but I suspect that the bond required will make it financially unattractive anyway - which is the whole point. They want their duty!

Unless anyone has specific information about South African law with respect to vehicle imports, then enough has been said on this topic!

Everyone to their corners and take a time out!
bier

To answer the specific question - what's the solution?
 

I see several possibilities, none of them good:

1. Give up on the carnet deposit and don't go back to South Africa. This also means the buyers are screwed because they can't legally import the bikes and Customs will certainly impound them.

2. Go back to South Africa and take the bikes out to a non-carnet country. Keep riding until you find a country that doesn't require the carnet. Hand them over to the buyers and let them import them into South Africa, paying whatever duty is required at the border.

3. Refund the buyers' money, ship them home to the Netherlands and do whatever you like with them. Come to an arrangement with the buyers to take care of the physical part of the shipping process, since you're refunding their money. You'll still have to pay for the shipping, of course. :(

Hard lesson to take note of - failure to understand and deal correctly with paperwork can be very expensive! That's why a big chunk of the Get Ready! DVD is about paperwork. Also see the Trip Planning link on the menu.

Another possible solution - but working out the paperwork again requires that waztafel get the bikes OUT of the country to a non-carnet country, AND get the carnet cleared, (difficult without returning the bikes home, but not impossible - contact your carnet issuer to check what they need as proof) OR trust that the new owner WILL get the bikes all the way to the Netherlands and not "lose" them somewhere along the way for whatever reason, legitimate or not.

And the new owner will then have to get a NEW carnet to travel north.

You MIGHT try travelling north on the original carnet, but that can be fraught, and is certainly illegal. If someone looks at the paperwork, and notices that the passport doesn't match the carnet, you're liable to end up in jail, accused of stealing the bike at the least. So not recommended. :nono:

It comes down to this - you must get the carnet cleared by getting the bike out of SA, or pay the import duties. IF indeed you can! :(

Waztafel, you might TRY to sort out paying the import duties, which will (or at least SHOULD) clear the carnet in SA, and you can then get the carnet fees back. And the new owners of the bike get to keep the bikes and you don't have to ship them back.

But you aren't going to get off without paying something!

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there it is.

Rather than "going back to South Africa" so solve the problem, can't the OP simply give someone, perhaps the buyer, a power of attorney to complete any necessary paperwork, take the bikes, etc.?

After reading your signature I had to laugh really hard. Please take your own advise :-):

Dear Grant,

Your site rules and regulations are nowhere to be seen. Your site seems to tolerate the breaking of the law and take it as part of "adventure motorcycling". I see no clear guidelines for language utilized also.

I come from a non-english speaking background and that includes the way I think and act. I am quite normal and I think I do well in English. But I am a Latin.

I thought this was an international site. My mistake.

Judging people by your own standards, without considering, for a moment, that this person may have different values and consequently different views, is an oxymoron to all what this site appears to encourage.

You also seem to know by heart what other people think about my persona. Quite a remarkable skill.

The day someone posts in this site that they "accidentaly" committed another type of offense, I expect all sympathetic responses also and advise about how to avoid the penalty.

When a friend tells me he screwed up I tell him he is an idiot and explain the situation as coldly and bluntly as I can. I do not go around speculating about scenarios and trying to justify my friends actions.

That is what I did in here. I thought I was amongst friends. Irony is a skill on my neck of the woods.

If you guys think for a moment that I was just playing cocky from my expert's armchair, then perhaps you are projecting.

You may not like the tone utilized, so what? no big crime, aren't we all adults? I was clear from a legal standpoint and you missed that. The bottom line is that smuggling is smuggling and ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it.

Attack the message, not the messenger. You are unable to. What this guy did is wrong and is idiotic. You are wrong in advising this guy to go back there to collect the bike.

At the end of the day, it is the same chaos of the undeveloped world that protects you from getting into real trouble. Go and do this in your own country, the penalty will be so swift, harsh and blunt that my literary style would be lame in comparison

Good luck to you all with your adventures in the third-world.

Keep breaking the law far away from home, then go back and write a book about it encouraging people to do it also.

This might help: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...vb_board_usage

Please could you take your discussions with Grant off-line? It would be useful to now be able to make suggestions on how the OP can sort his problem, without further hijacking. Feel free to contact me off-line too if you wish.
Regards
Chris

Relax buddy, and jump off that high horse you got there:thumbdown:. The original poster of the thread asked for advice based on a possible mistake he made and looking for a possible solution - he did not asked to be insulted/judged or anything like that.

Excellent post Grant, you've hit the nail right on the head! And you offered some possible solutions, which is afterall the reason of this thread I thought.
If you can't help, don't start a discussion. Even if you think you hold the one and only thruth. Less yapping, more riding!

You can contact the guys from Belgium who had the same problem at crossingtheborder2009 {AT} gmail {D-O-T} com. I think they got it sorted out eventualy.

Lets move this thread away from personal innuendo and deal in facts.

1. Despite what Xtrovert has stated above, it is possible to import a vehicle into South Africa having previously entered on a carnet. To do so will require payment of the relevant import duty, after which the carnet can be discharged. There are a number of other posters on this site who have done the same.

2. Import duty for second hand vehicles in SA is relatively high. It is generally recognised that import duty in Namibia is less, therefore there may be an advantage in disposing of the vehicle in Namibia. Given you aren't there, this may be difficult.

3. The only other option I see is to take the vehicle out of SADC, discharge the carnet, bring it on a TIP and then sell it. I am personally aware of people entering South Africa on a TIP without having to post a bond. Obviously the purchaser will then be responsible for any import duty.

I agree. It's certainly possible to import a bike when entered with a carnet. I once planned to do the same thing and contacted South African customs. It's also true that the import duties are relatively high, but when entered with a carnet, the duty costs are based on the value of the bike written in the carnet. The lower the value in the carnet, the lower the import duties.

Dear friends,

First of all, sorry for not getting back to you sooner and thanks to everybody that shared their useful thoughts.

To get a few things clear; we already tried to pay the import tax (the buyer will pay this) but we weren't able to since we first had to get our carnets stamped. We went to the customs office and also spent some time at a company that deals with importing vehicles. We were told all was ok so we were surprised (when back home) that things were not o.k.

Enfin, it looks like going back might not be a good solutions after all. I must say that we still have good contact with the buyer and we trusted him with our carnets (6000 euro) so we'll trust him also with the rest of the finances etc.

For now it looks like we have to find a way to convince the customs that we were trying to do everything legally and that we would still like to pay the import tax so that we can get the carnets back.

Not sure how we're going to do it but I'll start making some phone calls tomorrow. Will keep u posted.


Thanks!

still working on it.. for those who are interested; here is a trailer of our trip: Trailer "Enschede - Capetown overland 2010/2011" on Vimeo Will keep you posted on the progress @ customs...

Ok, we are back with some news...

We have managed to register both the bikes in South Africa. The main conclusion is that we haven't done anything illegal and without paying one bribe we managed to have our bikes, that were still on a carnet, registered on our SA friends names in Cape Town. They had to do a lot of paperwork and it for sure wasn't hassle free but this proves that it is possible. Just be positive and keep looking for options...

I would like to thank everybody here for helping us out!

Cheers,


Waztafel

red tape
 

ive just gone through all the crap of trying to import my africa twin into australia after having it here for 2 yrs on a carnet the answer was NO.now i have to send it back to the UK and bring it back in as parts minus the frame so ive then got to find a frame out here that i can use.i might be onto a XL650V frame but now have to pleed with the vehicle licence dept to let me put a 750 engine in a 650 frame and everyone i speak to asks me is it worth it .......F%$K yeah!!!!its an africa twin