I'm curious how these guy's driving Landrovers around the world can afford it. A $10,000 bike if quite cheap in comparison. I too will scrub those carnet seeking countries off my list. Too bad, really, and if they got the money, i might consider for a moment saving up an extra couple thousand dollars, but it sounds like its not them getting the money, instead banks and third party thieves are getting it. Complete BS!! :thumbdown:
So, i would like to know what happens if you show up at the boarder without a carnet? Any other way around? Please, no answers based on assumptions, but people who have done this and their experience. I read about a guy who traveled through Africa without a carnet and claims you don't need it. Sorry, i need to search for this thread no, i'll be back later.

Yeah...please post that thread. I'd like more info.

I can only (reasonably) ASSUME that you'd be turned away at the border if trying to enter a country that requires a Carnet, without having a Carnet.

Carnet good
 

We did Germany to South Africa a couple of years ago and our most expensive country was Tanzania at 100% of the value of the bike. Egypt was actually a bit less. Total cost was near $300 plus the lost opportunity for collecting interest on the $11,000 for both bikes. That is, we paid for the carnets up front out of our trip savings and then dipped into the line of credit near the end of our trip. The fact that the CAA is now offering an insurance type option is totally new. This has been available through the RAC for ages but not here in Canada. We've always had to put out the money up front.

A carnet is really only there to make your life easier. It is a method to prove to the country you are entering that you don't plan to sell your bike there. What you could do is pay the taxes and duties when you enter the country and then try to get those funds back when you exit. So to enter Tanzania for example you could pay $10,000 at the border and when you exit you could get your money back so that you could enter Malawi and pay their duties. Perhaps, if you are a good talker, you could convince the border authorities that you have no intention of selling your bike and they'll let you enter without paying duties or having a carnet. Or maybe with a little baksheesh or a "bond"? Anyway, a carnet is really much easier.

To be honest, most travellers take old or cheap bikes simply for the cost of purchasing the carnet. It certainly played a factor in my choice to take the old R100GS rather than the 1150 Adventure I had sitting in my garage at the time. I think it is unfortunate that you found out about the carnet costs so late in your research since, as you've found out, it is one of the big factors in planning for "the big trip". It affects everything from which bike to take to which countries to visit to how long you can travel to how much money to save.

Take a KLR, DR650 or something cheaper than your KTM990.
Your route does sound amazing, seems a shame to change these plans. Cheap bikes can be easily found and parts and maintenace alot cheaper; however I am sure you researched this already as well.:scooter:

Well, I only have the KTM 990; and I don't have the money to buy another bike (I would never want to sell my 990 for another).

I wouldn't say that it's very late in my planning. I have been thinking about this for 6 years, my plan started to take shape about 2 years ago, and I still have 18 months until I plan to depart. I still have time to restructure, if needed, or figure out a way to get money down on a Carnet, or just cut out the most expensive countries to lower the indemnity cost.

I have run into a number of frustrating roadblocks in my research - the Darien Gap, the inability to enter Israel (if I want to enter most Middle-Eastern countries), and the inability to cheaply enter into mainland China. Now, this Carnet issue arises. All of these things seem ridiculous in this world of what are really just imaginary borders.

Had a chat with Suzanne Danis
 

I phoned the CAA after doing the online calculation for our next trip and found out some interesting information.

The bond indemnity being offered by the CAA uses the same insurance company that has been offering the bond indemnity for the RAC. This means that the bond for Egypt is now the same as for UK residents at 800% of the value of the vehicle if you opt for the Indemnity option. It is still 55% if you chose to go with the Guarantee option. I guess the insurance company has been paying out too many claims for vehicles being left in Egypt. So while the duty into Egypt is only 55% the insurance company charges 800% to recover their costs. That explains why you get two different amounts when you do the calculation, one for the insurance company and one for the true duty cost. Note that if you extend an Indemnity Bond you'll have to come up with the total cost again whereas with the Guarantee you'll only be charged a small renewal fee.

In the Guarantee estimate there is a $2000 cost associated with "estimated bank fees". This is an estimate for how much a bank (not the CAA) will charge you to issue a letter of credit. This will vary depending on your relationship with your bank but $2000 should pretty well be the maximum and the minimum is probably around $100. If you send cash (or a certified cheque) to the CAA there will be no bank fees. The cost of your carnet will then only be the $550 administration fee plus the lost interest that your money could have been earning while you were travelling.

I really love the new calculator. It sure beats writing Suzanne Danis and having her look up all the countries you'll be travelling through and sending a note back. The calculator is perfect for doing the trip planning and playing "What if?" scenarios. Now you can look at a map and say to yourself, "How do I go around Iran and how much would that cost?"

I'll definitely be including this in a session at the 2010 HU Canada West meeting so if you still have questions, come out to Nakusp for the weekend of August 12 to 15 and we'll do our best to answer them.

:D

Here's my route, if anyone's is interested in looking at it or giving me some feedback.

Google Earth File:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B9j...MmM1Mzlh&hl=en

I've been planning on calling the CAA, too; but haven't gotten around to it yet. I emailed Suzanne Danis earlier in the week for an answer to one of my questions, but didn't want to have her try to answer all of my questions since she seemed to be out of the office until Tuesday and likely had other emails to respond to.

I have only been looking at the percentage from the CAA indemnity fee table here:
Carnet de Passages en Douane - Canadian Automobile Association | Association canadienne des automobilistes

I had no idea Egypt was really only 55% if you put up your own cash.

I've been adding all Carnet % requirements to my Google Earth file so that I can look at it and come up with the best solution if I cannot cover the cost of a Carnet for my desired route.

Yes...the calculator is really good. I have been using it, but it doesn't reveal certain information, so I didn't fully understand how the calculations were being made.

If you find the planning frustrating you probably aren't going to enjoy some of those border crossings either. :)

By the way, the borders aren't imaginary. On the other side of that imaginary line you'll find a whole different world of cultures and people. It's the reason we travel. And every individual needs to make a decision on how badly they want to travel to that country. That country isn't obliged to let you in so they in effect have a monopoly on themselves. Iran has a monopoly on visiting Iran. You can't very well visit Kansas and say you've visited Iran. :) If you want to visit Iran then you'll have to pay what they're asking and you'll need to jump through their hoops to get in.

You're in the right place (the HUBB) to do all that research that needs to get done before you go. If you want to really pick some people's brains (people who have done what you're planning) then try to make it to an HU Traveller's Meeting. You'll definitely be:
:welcome:

I guess it's a matter of perspective, and really comes down to one's personal philosophy of the world.

I have done quite a bit of traveling in my life; just not by motorcycle.

Here is a quotes that I like:

I don't see the world as divided into discrete spots on a map. The lines on an atlas do not exist in reality; but only in the mind and policy of man. The different cultures that exist are not a function of imaginary borders; and I think the reason why we travel is to come to the realization that we all are fundamentally one.

I was only frustrated that these obstacles exist; but I know that there will be a day when they do not (just not likely in my lifetime).

What goes on at these travelers meetings?

I feel your pain! I have been doing similar research as a Canadian for the Middle East and Northern Africa which is how I found this forum. I've done my VISA research and got that under the belt, looked at shipping, and finally thought I was getting a hold on all the elements of this type of motorcycle travel in this area after reading about the green card and insurance info.

Then I stumbled on the Carnet de Passage info. At first I figured no biggie, but going to CAA I found out it is over $600 just for the Carnet not to mention the money you have to put up. My first reaction was 'is this a joke'! How can they be f___ing you like this... Insurance costs, shipping, visa's, temp insurance, all these costs are already adding up.

I am now removing Egypt and Northern Africa route from my trip and planing to loop into the middle east and back out again, which is a shame, but I really can't afford a Carnet unless I can figure something better out.

PS I like your philosophical ramblings above. Couldn't agree more. It can just be so frustration that you or I may have this vision of the world, this thought and this belief, and yet we have to work within a system that is the opposite. Aside from taking drastic measures, it doesn't seem that we have a lot of choice.

What are you guys complaining about?
I'm getting a carnet for a vehicle that is perhaps undervalued a bit at $120,000. I'm putting up the cash for the CAA to deposit in their bank. I'll get it back, and since interest rates are so low I won't "lose" much interest over a couple of years.
"Pay to play" - you can't expect to have it handed to you on a silver platter.
Every country is a sovereign entity and you have to follow their rules!
As travellers we find borders highly inconvenient and they cause anxiety, at least on my part.
But the inhabitants of some countries like having borders, very much.

Charlie

Well, since you have a vehicle that is undervalued at $120,000, you're perspective might be slightly different. Most of us don't have that sort of money. It seems like you have it on a silver platter already.

A lot of us work hard, but don't have that sort of money.

Of course inhabitants of some countries like having borders. These are usually countries like the USA and Canada; in which we have hoarded (historians would say stolen at the barrel of a gun) vast amounts of land and resources for ourselves. We have "claimed" this land as if we have more privilege to it than any other; and the passing of time makes the claim to this land seem more official.

Because of this, we have become very rich and very powerful; and we want to put up walls to keep outsiders from getting a piece of the pie. Other countries need to maintain their own borders, in part, to protect their own small share of land and resources from exploitation by the richer, more powerful countries.

The system never seems broken if it works for us.

My goodness, what rhetoric!
I was in your situation 30 and 40 years ago. I have been working most of that time.
But I didn't have aspirations of abolishing borders.
It does seem that there are a few more countries than the ones you named that are particular about their borders. Including some post-colonial ones.

Charlie

PS: don't jump to conclusions about people you know nothing about; it's not a good pre-requisite for good travelling experiences (the "silver platter" comment)

I guess it's easier to dismiss it as rhetoric.

I don't think it was a big jump to come to the conclusion that, since you own or have access to a vehicle undervalued at $120,000, and you are able to put up the money for a Carnet for that vehicle, that you have money. It's a pretty reasonable assumption.

I agree that it's not good to travel and have preconceived notions of an entire country of individuals, but this is completely different than making a reasonable assumption about someone based on information provided. If, for some reason, I am way off in my assessment of your financial situation; and you are offended by that, I do apologize.

My main point is that, people who have the money to easily function in the system don't see a problem with the system.