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Oil course
It can be a battle finding "the right" engine oil in some parts of the world. Some will not use anything else but syntetic oil. Others say semi-syntetic is alright, while mineral oil have some fans. But really, what is the practical difference?
What else is good to know about engine oil? There is so many strong opinions out there about this subject, and it would be nice to calrify what is right and what is not. Thanks [This message has been edited by Eriks (edited 26 January 2006).] |
There are a bunch of racers out there who prefer the old dinosaur type oil on race days as it supposedly makes the engine run cooler and hence create a bigger bang and more speed (I guess this would be with wehicles or in races where oil coolers are not an option).
The dinosaur type pollutes more and will create sooth deposits on your spark faster than synthetics. Synthetics pollute less (air and bike) and supposedly give better lubrication (though I have never lived the life of a cylinder and can't tell for sure). As for performance I have noticed no difference with synthetics. Dinosaur oil is cheaper and will serve you just fine. Marketers are really good at convincing people that they desperatly need the more expensive stuff, no matter what the product is. It is their job and MANY are REALLY REALLY good at it. Personally I allways use the most expensive top end stuff they have at the gasstation I fill at... because I really love my bike and think that the marginal unnoticable difference, even if only plausible or immaginative, is worth it. At home I store Castrol. On the road I use the best stuff available and I am really not worried about any negative effects by running on dinosaur goo, as long as it is has the proper weight/grade/viscocity Most synthetic oils has additives such as gasohol which are put there to make combustion cleaner and less pollutive, however, these additives make the engine run even hotter and add to the problem. If you for instance is running in a new engine because you changed your piston rings or something, this may cause problems. I have read somewhere that the oil addatives alone can raise engine temperature with as much as 10 degrees. Don't take my word for this, I'm far from an expert... [This message has been edited by Wheelie (edited 26 January 2006).] |
i jused fully synthetich because, well it must be better then the rest since it was the most expensive, till i found out my local bike shop always uses semi, cheaper and (acording to them) the same results. can't say i notice any diference in preformance. but then i'm more a cruiser then a racer.
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I always recommend whatever the manufacturer of the bike recommends - they have a vested interest in you using the best oil for the machine.
If you have an OLD bike - pre-synthetics - you will still be fine with the factory recommendation - you MAY get better life out of the engine with semi- or full synthetic - IF you keep it long enough for that to matter, otherwise the cost isn't worht it. You can extend oil change times with full synthetics, but not as much as the oil manufacturers would have you believe. About double seems to be generally accepted. Past that, use whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy - it's your bike, and most bikes today can use whatever oil there is around just fine. The caveat to that - some oil bathed clutches don't like full synthetics, and some seals don't. If you have a problem, just change back. Grant |
While my car requires synthetic, my motorcycles' manuals don't specify one or the other. This means it is a choice to run whatever meets the viscosity requirements and so forth. I've always used Dino oil in the engine and synthetic (or semi-synthetic) in the transmission of my BMWs.
Supposing I switched over to synthetic for my newer bike (a 2003 R1150GS Adventure) how likely am I to find it in less developed areas of the world? If it is difficult to find then I won't bother switching now and then in 2007 go back to Dino while on the road. Grant, if you are correct in extending the service interval for an oil change using synthetic then I suppose it might be possible to make it all the way to a large centre before the oil change. Then just carry a litre of synthetic for topping up. ------------------ Ekke Kok Redwood Meadows, AB '89 R100GS '03 R1150GS Adventure |
Interesting replies, thanks!
Wheelie, you say that full-syntetic oil makes the engine run hotter compared to mineral oil. That is exactly the opposit of what I've heard from other sources. Anybody else who will take side in this issue? |
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My method for travel - a good standard mineral / dino oil. Available anywhere, and I don't have to carry oil, or worry about being able to find the "right" stuff when it comes time. So long as it has oil, any kind of oil, it's not going to blow up. Even olive oil works when desperate I'm told... For travel, imho, one less thing to worry about is good. KISS. Grant |
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For break-in, you should always use mineral oil, then when fully broken-in switch to whatever you like. Fully broken in is AT LEAST 5,000 miles, 10,000 on BMW's. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif Synthetic oils tend to prevent proper break-in - too slippery! See the links page for an article on oil additives. Grant |
Eriks -
I am not sure about this either. What I've heard is that eventhough synthetics offer better lubrication, and hence should run cooler than dino, these synthetics also has additives to make combustion cleaner, which makes the engine run hotter. If this is the case, I don't know whether it would be because the additives would affect the timing of combustion or if the additives themselves burn hotter or something... Regardless, the question at hand, what kind of oil to use, my personal opinion is that go for the best at hand when convenient and don't worry about dinosaur oil if that is all that is available. You might want to change it more often, maybe even change your spark a bit prematurely, but I seriously doubt that even after long distance riding on dinosaur that your bike will experience any significant negative effects. Any negative effects, if any, I'd bet you could remedy with some fuel additive when you get home to clean it all up. I have never ever heard of a vehicle of any kind which has bogged as a direct result of using dino instead of synthetics. More important is to ensure that the oil is of the correct viscocity, that your fuel/air mixture is correct, that timing is correct, gaskets are in order, etc. Then once again, don't take my word for it. But, I would really like to see a reliable report proving otherwise; that dinosaur oil is so significantly inferior that worries about using it when nothing else is available, is justified. I'm a marketeer and have serious trouble believing in claims from fellow marketeers, we are all like to streeeeeeeeetch the truth. I've seen plenty of commercials shoving the innside of combustion engines and the effects of different brands of fuels, etc. I've ssen plenty of commercials of chewing gum and tooth paste that will turn your teeth all white and shiny, cerial breakfasts that will make you want to run the marathon and what not. Come on folks, get a grip! There might be a difference, but a difference so insignificant that it really doesn't matter, like eating eggs or something to improve your potency. It is this tiny difference we marketers like to stretch, that is why you buy all the crap you don't need... and if you are anything like me, you buy a lot of useless crap. In short, use dino if it is all they've got. Use synthetics if they have it. Synthetics may or may not make a significant difference, but it will give you piece of mind, which is worth the money. When you get home, buy some carb cleaner additive or something for extra assurance. Drinking and writing, sorry... [This message has been edited by Wheelie (edited 26 January 2006).] |
My rule of thumb is just keep on using what the engine has been used to running on,be it fully-synth,semi-synth or chipfat.Especially on older vehicles the important factor is viscosity.If the motor was designed to run on 15w-50 and you put synth 5w-30 in it,chances are it won't last very long and will pee oil out of every available gasket/seal(airhead BM's will!).On the other hand,if you try to run say a Honda VFR V-tec on 20w-50 chipfat,it will rattle like a can of nails as the hydraulic cam followers can't handle oil that thick.
Another thing to note is if you DO want to use fully synth,and the motor has been brought-up on semi-synth,make sure you flush it through several times before you go on any long journeys,as the build-up of carbons over the years from semi(not a problem if you carry on using the stuff) will get dislodged/partly disolved by the cleaning agents in fully synth,and has been known to then block up oilways,etc... ------------------ Just going for a short ride on my bike.... |
I buy the cheapest oil of the correct viscosity. It is still better than the best oil you could buy some years ago.
It's not the oil that will send your bike to the scrap heap... |
MUST READ MUST READ MUST READ
The following is a short summary of Consumer Reports article on motor oils and is a MUST READ: 4-1/2-million-mile test with a fleet of New York City taxicabs turned some conventional wisdom on its head. 75 cabs were used over a 22 month period to test 20 popular motor oils in grueling conditions. They tested for wear and tear and a whole lot of other things. In short, their conclusions were that there were virtually NO noticable difference between the most expensive synthetics and the cheap dino oils as long as viscocity suggestions and oil changes were followed properly. Although the expensive synthetics worked no better than conventional motor oils, they were worth considering for extreme driving conditions, high ambient temperatures and high engine load or very cold temperatures. Their overall suggestion was to buy the cheapest goo available! The article in full can be found here: http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.htm The following Car Craft article tests performance difference in high powered cars, also this questions wether it is wort the price difference: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/15378/ The following site covers a project of testing the longlivety of different synthetic oils. http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/s.../oil-life.html The following article gives a short summary of the "superiority" claims of synthetic over dino. The claims are likely to contain truth, but the practical difference??? http://www.d2ftechnology.com/synthet...sus_dino_.html Second after all lawyers, marketers is the professional group the world would be better without. They should all be sunk to the bottom of the ocean, together with their synhetic oil and whitening chewing gum... exept me ofcourse http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif [This message has been edited by Wheelie (edited 27 January 2006).] [This message has been edited by Wheelie (edited 27 January 2006).] |
I use synthetic oil,and I normally double the recommended oil change to 6k miles.If this makes any difference in the life of the engine,I'll never know.I'm convinced that synthetic oils will weep and dribble out of every seal and gasket.On the more practical side for travelling,you can find cheap 10-40 weight Dino oil in any town or 2 hut village.
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OK, it seems like it in most cases doesn't make any practical difference if you choose syntetics over dino.
Then what about the different types of dino oil. I mean, you can buy e.g. 10/40 motorcycle oil, and you can buy 10/40 car oil. It is the same viscosity, but allegedly a different product. Or is it another marketing stunt? |
I don't know, but I bet it is a marketing stunt.
For instance, in Norway they sell cooling fluid to have in your radiator in the summer and antifrost fluid in the winther, they are labelled differently but contain the exact same crap. Same shit different wrapping. This is how they aquire more shelf space, make their product seem unique and superior, and hence they sell more... but don't take my word for it. |
No, the cooling liquid is also a corrosion protector, very necessary for the engine. You can run an engine with just plain water, but in the long run it will corrode and gunk will build up in the cooling system.
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My comment was a bit misleading... yes, the cooling chemicals are better than water for the reasons you say. What I ment to say was that it is the exact same product (chemical composition) winther and summer, they just call it by different names in summer and winther, to get you to change what you have and buy more... I didn't mean to say the product was crap, although it was in fact the exact thing I said... what I meant that the marketing is crap... or ingenious (which ever way you want to see it)
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Synthetic oil is designed for use in modern hi tech engines with tight tolerances, mineral oil is not good for them. Old engines were designed to run on mineral oil, not synthetic. If your engine is used to running on mineral oil conventional wisdom is not to suddenly start running it on synthetic as it will piss oil everywhere! someone earlier mentioned about the deposits, well they fill up the gaps in your gaskets etc, using a mineral oil can remove these as part of it's cleaning action and you end up leaking everywhere. It's a bit like when you flush your rad out, and then really regret it afterwards 'cos it leaks everywhere. Older engines don't have fine enough tolerances to use synthetic oils. (by that I mean like old landy or TLC engines derived from a bus!)
Andy TLC H60 landrover 101 ambie/camper 1968 morris minor traveller |
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The diference is in the additives. Most cars run a dry clutch and special, more¨slippery additives in the oil. Most motorcycles have a wet clutch, with the exception of BMW, Harley Davidson and i think Moto Guzzi. Here the theory is that the clutch will not preform properly if you use car oil with the additives, but only in theory. I know a guy with a KLR and he only uses car oil, never a problem with the clutch. I wonder if anyone here could contribute to this specific topic...anyone have a clutch fail due to using car oil?? |
Second after all lawyers, marketers is the professional group the world would be better without. They should all be sunk to the bottom of the ocean, together with their synhetic oil and whitening chewing gum... exept me ofcourse http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif oi wheelie, see you in court mate. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif a lawyer |
There's a lot of good advice here, but I don't really understand why you all refer to mineral as dino. Synthetic is dino as well, just the manufacturing process is more complicated.
There is no real difference between the oil in mineral and synthetic oils. Remembering back to my carbon chemistry, oil is simply long hydrocarbon chains (as opposed to short hydrocarbon chains, like in petrol). What makes the difference between the two oils is the way they are manufactured and this in turn effects the lengths of hydrocarbon chains present. Mineral oil is refined from crude in a 'ground up' separating process. This results in an oil that has a greater distribution of carbon chain lengths. Synthetic oil is created in a ‘top down’ approach from joining smaller hydrocarbons that ensures that the chain lengths are a lot closer in length. That is the only difference in the oils. However, this leads to many differences in how machines are designed and how the oils are formulated. Because the composition of synthetic oils can be more closely controlled, engineers can now design bikes to closer tolerances based on the assumption that a certain type of oil will be used. This effects things like operating temperatures, gasket pressures and piston clearances. And then, because new bikes are designed with synthetics in mind, any additives that are invented to stretch the life of the oil, clean the engine, increase the operating temperature range, etc. are added to the synthetic oil. To an engineers mind, putting your new additive into an inferior mineral oil would just be a waste of time. So, as far as bikes are concerned, the only thing that matters is that you closely match the manufacturers specifications regardless of mineral or synthetic. However, if for example you take a new bike from synthetic to mineral, you will have changed the required oil change period (eg, mineral will wear out quicker than synthetic). What to can only really be worked out by the manufacturer, however it would probably be safe to, say, half your oil change period when using mineral. Also, changing oils willy-nilly is not a good idea. With two different oils in your engine, there is a chance that a difference in viscosity or weight will cause the oils to circulate differently than designed for. E.g. the lighter oil can sit up in your frame (I’ve got a frame cooled XR) and not circulate round the engine. If using a different oil, I’d recommend a full oil change. Finally, car oil will make a wet clutch stick, I’ve seen it. Maybe it works in a road bike running at constant speeds, but it seems to shag a trailbike clutch pretty damn quick. An Engineers two cents, Matt |
On the road in Mexico, I carry a bottle of WalMart oil for the occasional little top up and when it comes time for the oil change I´ll go with whatever is available in the right viscosity range and API classification. Like Grant says any oil will do . Expensive oil MAY be better than cheap oil , but cheap oil is always better than NO oil. In all the years I´ve been riding I have never lost a motor due to it running on the "wrong" oil. I did once strip second gear in a Suzuki T500 because the output shaft seal let the oildrain down-no oil !
"Dino(saur) oil" is a misnomer because the crude oil is derived from ancient marine sediments and maybe comet debris and was already in the substrates before the age of dinos. |
Sounds to me like some engines can handle differnet oils and some can't. Again, it comes down to YOUR specific bike for a recommendation.
Ironically, I had a hard time finding 10W-40 mineral oil in Central Asia...all they had was synthetic! My Transalp seems to run on anything I put in. I think I will try the olive oil suggestion next, can I use the Italian stuff even though I have a Japanese bike? ------------------ Dave www.mototrekker.com |
You should be able to do that. In the owners manual of my old RD250 I remember reading that if you want to use vegetable-based oil in the gear box you had to clean and rinse it out first, because the two together turn into a caoutchouk-like solid mass. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/wink.gif
What a mess... |
Hmm, thanks for many good and well founded answers. I'm getting wiser here.
Here is another common allegation out there: The word is that you cannot mix types of oil e.g. syntetic and mineral, partly because it will make the cluch slippery (which is already mentioned here). Then what about semi-syntetic oil - isn't that half syntetic half mineral? Or is is more complicated than that? |
by chance i asked that question a week ago at my lokal honda dealer and acordig to them you can safely mix sythetic and half-synthetic oil but not mineral and half-synthetic or fully synthetic, i didn't ask why not. if the above turns out to be wrong i'll let you know, just chanced the oil on my ntv 650, and mixed 0.5 liters fully synthetic (with i had left standing) with 2 liters half-synthetic, so i'll will find out
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I thought the point of using half synthetic was that you could mix it with either full synthetic or mineral oil.
If the oil is half synthetic, what is the other half made of??? ------------------ Dave www.mototrekker.com |
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