Help save the green lane's
 

please sign here

Petition to: suspend Section 6 of the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 to allow "byways open to all traffic" to be established where motor vehicle rights of way existed prior to 2006.

Sorry Daz, these lanes are not suitable for wheeled traffic - they only destroy the way and make it impassable for others. You can see the damage and it's not sustainable.

You also get offroad m/cycling a bad name.

The "roads" in question were designed for Horse/pedestrian traffic.
The advent of wealth for the masses has enabled them to buy toys, 2 and 4 wheeled, that rip the tracks apart because its boring to travel on them at walking pace. Lots of revs, low gears and mud slinging tyres look much more the part.

The basic problem is that there are TOO many people that want to do it and the tracks cant recover. Years ago when it was called scrambling in the UK, there were only a few that did it. The rest of us watched it on TV on a Sunday afternoon:biggrin3:

John

Sorry, all for saving the green lanes and that means not abusing them. Leave the lanes for walkers, horses and mountain bikes. Enjoy the peace, flora and fauna that has been massacred in the UK since the war. That island is way too small and crowded for this kind of thing now.

Why?

Walkers have "millions" of miles of footpaths + "the right to roam" legislation that allows them to go onto just about anyones' land.

Horse riders have bridleways - enough said.

That leaves green lanes that have had a right of access since time began - so let's ban that as well is the basic reaction of the ramblers et al.

When green lanes are finally closed to vehicle traffic, the only ones on them will be those who ride them illegally now - those who use illegal bikes and could not give a damn anyway. In exactly the same way that illegal guns have snowballed in the UK, irrespective of gun control laws that are ever more encompassing.

I do agree though that there are about 30 million too many people in this country - now how did that happen!! :rolleyes2:
However, most of the time on most days the green lanes are empty, just as are the footpaths & bridleways.

Dave,

You have a point and I don't really have much evidence to offer. It was more of a feeling, man! I went green laneing in Catalunya a couple of years ago and felt so bad about the experience, I thought "never again".

Lets look at the facts people:
Walkers can use 100% of all tracks and paths (unpaved) in the UK. Where ramblers are causing excessive erosiuon damage a lot of work is being done by the National Park Authorities and voluntary groups to repair this damage
Horses and Mountain Bikes can use bridleways but not footpaths, leaving around 8% ish. Again there are codes of conduct that are adhered to and work on erosion prevention is being done for these tracks
BOaTs account for less than 5% of tracks and are the ONLY unpaved roads you can go on in a 4x4 or motorbike. They are also GREAT on a mountain bike, and I have no problems sharing.

The Ramblers Association (when its members were in their 20s) were a forward thinking progressive movement that put in a huge amount of effort to ensure that the public could enjoy the open spaces we have in the UK. It seems that now they are a bunch of geriatric reactionaries they are doing just the opposite, and trying to ban everyone who isn't one of them.

A better solution would be to encourage more work to be done on MAINTAINING the BOaTs for/by the wheeled users and to reduce the arguments/friction ban RAMBLERS from using them. Providing a footpath alongside a BOaT should be easy.

As the minority vote we are easily persecuted by the all-powerful RA.

The problem in the UK is a general lack of respect or tolerance for anyone who doesn't do what you do.

I am (for my sins) chairman of Southern Group TRF so am quite involved with the "Green Lane" issue.

I hate to see a torn up bit of countryside the same as the next man but the off-tarmac lanes network should be sustainable in the UK. What is happening though is that as lanes are restricted, other lanes become over used, which in turn leads to them being damaged and then restricted.

4x4s
The 4x4 drivers don't do themselves any favours. There is a fine old, tree covered sunken lane near me that has some big rock steps and is a challenge on a bike and bloody difficult in a 4x4. What happens is 10 4x4s pull into the lane to try to get up, spend 2 hours winching and digging then give up and cut through the woods and accross a field to bypass the steps.

Walkers
We regularly meet families walking with there dog and the parents will normally smile and nod a hello and the kids will wave.

Ramblers
They just don't look like they are having any fun in the countryside at all. What a sour-faced bunch of ignorant w***ers. They seem to relish a confrontation and are very put out when I talk to them politely. I don't understand why they walk down a lane that is known to be used by traffic when there is a footpath 100yds away that goes in the same direction. When I get any evil looks, I like to stop and explain that they really need to understand that they are walking on a legal road and that I have past a bike test, got an MOT, Road Tax and Insurance in order to be here. If they don't like meeting traffic, they should walk somewhere else and not down the middle of a road.

Horses
Most riders are sensible and will find a spot to pull in to allow us to overtake. When they are coming the other way, we stop, cut engines and let them pass. I've never had a confrontation with a horse rider. Our club often employed to set out courses and marshal equestrian events.

Damage
There is no denying that a motorised vehicle has some impact on an un-surfaced road but even when the recreational user is restricted, agricultural vehicles are not. A lot of the lanes that have been "closed" are still in use by heavy forrestry and farm vehicles.
Lots of lanes that have been closed for just over a year have now disapeared. They are overgrown and impassable by anyone.

Recreation
If I want to play football, there are 20 or more public pitches I can play on.
Swimming; public pools.
Skateboard parks, tennis courts, etc, etc,
All funded by public money for public use. Would it be so difficult to leave a few lanes open to all users.

Sorry for the long-winded rant

It wasn't a rant. It was very lucid.

I will miss the off-road aspect of UAE life when I return to the UK. I am hoping to try some responsible greenlaning. You've made a lot of good points. Thanks.
Stephan

Sustrans
 

Not long winded at all: that adds the detail to my post on the same lines. We could also mention the cyclists. If motorcycle riders were organised in the same way as the sustrans charity (do a search for sustrans if you don't know this name) for cyclists, then there would be purpose designed and made riding ways/green lanes across the length and breadth of the UK, reserved for motorbikes.

The local councils are spending taxes on footways and cycleways, neither of which pay directly for such services - yes, of course, we all pay general taxation, but those two pampered "users" do not pay road tax, insurance etc etc - just don't get me going about caravans and their lack of road fund licence!!

annoying
 

These arguements really annoy me - a BOAT is just what it says it is. If it's not signposted effectively then it needs to be. People arguing that "my hobby is quieter/more respectful/greener" just makes it worse and breeds resentment.

The countryside is also where real people live and not just a glass-palace for do-gooders to act out their fantasies of rural britain/delusions of green-ness by cycling around for a bit before getting in their cars and polluting their way back to their convenience-lives. Just like it's not their right to have it clean smelling, free of mud and nice and quiet for the old folk. People should be allowed to drive their motorbikes or 4x4s on these tracks without condemnation. Illegal riding is just that in that same way as the annoying family you find camping in your field off the footpath. They are just as in-the-wrong but it shouldn't be used in arguements that affect the majority of legal users.

Off roading is great fun, it is very damaging, but it also limited to a very small amount of tracks/road, many of which were either paved or graded a very long time ago (and could therefore be restored to their original condition).

Why is this even a point of discussion/argument? And why oh why are any of US arguing to have green-laning banned altogether??

Stick to the rules, try not to let irate rambler abuse get to you (you will get it whether you are on a bike, motorbike, going climbing or even flying a kite out in 'their' open spaces), support the TRF and do whatever you can to make our tiny voice heard over the RA rabble!

There are a couple of lanes near me that have been torn to oblivion by forrestry vehicles. They are TROed (Traffic Regulation Order) for recreational use but are still used by comercial vehicles. The problem is that the rambliers can't tell the difference between the damage caused by a JCB Fourtrack dragging logs and recreational vehicles in much the same way that they don't see a difference between a handfull of trail bikes and a pile of motorcrossers.

As I said, most of the walkers I have met are generally cheerful and friendly. The gangs of 30 or more ramblers are a different matter though.

Can't comment on the Daily Mail reference, haven't read a paper for years.

I agree that recreational vehicles do cause dammage, I'm not daft. What I do have a problem with is the under-handed way that our rights to participate in anything other than cuddly, clean, eco-friendly and safe passtimes is being taken away.

When we had loads of lanes to use, it was very rare to see another bike all day and we hardly saw any damage.

Sorry, ranting again :innocent:

Vested interests rule
 

I guess it is being discussed, not for the first time, because the subject is still current in the UK (there are other threads that bring out the same/similar point for the USA where off-road riding is also being restricted).

Anyway, for what it is worth, there is a whole vested interest in continuing the restrictions, particularly among those who are employed in such areas of work:-
I was somewhat taken aback a short time ago by a news item on the TV - the gist of it was as follows -
Ramblers of a certain kind were referred to as "Goretex man" - these are those who go onto the mountain paths in all weathers, thereby causing increased erosion of the footpaths by their footfall: the inference was that either walkers should only go out on dry paths (mostly anyway) or more money should be spent on building up the paths to "all weather capability". Of course the main enthusiast for the latter was working for a national park providing footpaths. :rolleyes2: He just might be running out of work?

I'm not quite sure if Camandino fully understands what a 'green lane' is, or indeed what the 'politics' are behind this ongoing strangulation of motorised access to what is after all a historical network of unpaved roads.

I'm sure that Big Yellow Tractor can elucidate if necessary, but AFAIK in simple terms following the (controversial) re-classifications, there are 3 categories of unpaved access routes in the UK:

Footpaths - self explanatory, but intended for walking or perhaps cycling. These routes can intersect boundaries like hedgerows or fences, but the boundary remains intact and a means of crossing them such as a stile or restricted gate is allowed or provided.

Bridleways are a network of larger paths intended to be accessible by ridden horses. No obstruction to free passage along these routes should be made, and if they cross boundaries, then typically there will be a gap in the boundary which may be secured by a gate, but it shouldn't be locked.

BOATs are Byways Open to All Traffic, and are lanes which should be accessible by all and any means of road-legal vehicles.

Now, the network of footpaths and bridleways within the UK under the current structure is vast and covers many thousands of miles. BOATs on the other hand are far fewer in number and could probably be measured in tens of hundreds of miles. The comment made about ramblers getting 'precious' about vehicular usage of BOATs when they have protected and unfettered access to footpaths and bridleways is very, very fair... Local Authorities have a statutory duty to maintain BOATs, and to ensure that they remain accessible. Sadly, it is easier - and doubtless cheaper - for them to slap an indefinite TRO (Traffic Regulation Order) on a lane, effectively closing it to all vehicular traffic. The other way the Local Authorities are being sneaky is by re-classifying parts of BOATs as Bridleways, effectively sealing or closing then to vehicular traffic.

The only really effective way to help maintain and protect our access to these lanes is to join and support the TRF, whose unstinting efforts are helping to slow down the rate at which ancient rights of way are being taken away from us. Anybody who is serious about protecting legitimate trail riding rights owes it to themselves and the greater trail riding community to join.

Greg

Dorset-TRF
082064

I understand enough to say that ancient ways which were once access roads cant tolerate the damage that motorised wheeled vehicles do to an unpaved track. It is a fact, and not an opinion, to say that this is unsustainable.

It is evident that these ways become rutted, muddy bogs when subject to modern vehicles. Because it is an ancient route does not give you the right to destroy it , believing that you have "the right" to do so.

I direct you to the French situation, where bikes and now quads have done immense damage to ancient paths.

On the contrary, it is not a fact but merely your oft stated opinion. If the local authorities were to carry out their duties fully and properly in maintaining all of the legal highways, especially the BOATs then they would be capable of sustaining vehicular traffic.
It is no different to the lack of maintenance of potholes in the surfaced highways - perhaps a legal case against the local highways authority, based on an accident on a BOAT, would "shake their tree".

However, vested interests, lobby groups and the like run both the local authorities and organisations such as the ramblers. In the meantime, biking groups are generally seen as those that can be safely ignored by the politicians.

I detect a note of irritation in your first line. Can't help you there...

However it is an evident fact, in front of your eyes, that an earth track, in a wet country, cant take the kind of abuse that motorised wheels do to it. It wasnt designed for that 1000 years ago.

And who are the vested interest groups and lobbies that "run" the councils?

I regret that these tracks cant support your bike or 4X4 churning it into mud. Earth+moisture + wheels = mud and ruts.

Sometimes it's clear to see the difficulty Galileo had.

Sorry to disagree but a lot of these "earth tracks" were once very well engineered roads, coping with very heavy horse-drawn trunk traffic. When the adjacent fields were cultivated, any stones or rocks were used to pave the farm tracks and roads. Drainage ditches & culverts were dug and fords paved.

If a larger network of lanes were accessible and maintained, the very low frequency of traffic would be easily sustainable. Traffic counters have been placed on various lanes in England and the vehicular use is very light. This was raised in a Government funded report that was very quickly ignored when the outcome wasn't what the Government wanted.

Most of the lanes could be repaired with a few tons of scalpings and the clearing out of overgrown ditches.

Gregorius, Your understanding & explaination of the situation is spot on.

Hi Big
Dont be sorry to disagree! You make some interesting points - one in particular supports what I say. You refer to the stones from the fields being used to pave the way -quite right. The ways needed paving, because of the mud. The Romans paved their roads, which were better than the existing British ones. Also, the farmers no longer do local piecemeal repairs, so the way/route has no maintenance.

So my point still stands -these routes cant take modern traffic. Bikes are specially destructive to them, unfortunately.

But they could with a bit of maintainance.

If we could just get past the politics, apply some common sense and find a few quid for repairs, then all users could enjoy these ancient routes and all live happily ever after.

The FACT is that Motorised transport DOES indeed cause damage to dirt tracks which were originally designed/intended to be used by pedestrians and horses. A modern large and powerful trail bike can cause immense damage very quickly, almost as much as a 4 wheel drive motor car can. Surely this can't be denied...

I think what most people object to is the idiots who power through muddy areas and create large ploughed furrows! Personally I have no objection to green-laning on two wheels providing riders use a bit of common sense and ensure they liberally use the throttle where the dirt is lose and likely to get churned up badly...

If this spoils your fun then tuff... so be it.

In my offroad days I always tried to minimise damage like this by careful use of the throttle. There are plenty of alternatives out there for riders who wish to pelt about all day on full throttle churning up the countryside. If it was down to me these idiots would be given a shovel and made to fill in the damage they create (together with a huge fine). Of course it's no good making rules if you don't intend to properly enforce them.

They would easily sustain such traffic, and far more, if they were maintained correctly, as per earlier posts.
As has been pointed out, the real traffic wear originates from heavier vehicles, as it does on the surfaced highways.
I have made my earlier observations after a number of years of employment in highway and bridge design and construction, with quite a bit of exposure to both the practical elements of the engineering and the politicking involved in Local Government.
The fact remains that the green lanes (BOATs) have been neglected by most Local Authorities, often as a deliberate policy of saving money - there are no votes in green lanes. Once the National Parks join in on this process, the day is usually lost for vehicular traffic on BOATs.
It used to be much the same for footpaths across a great deal of the UK, until the Ramblers Assoc (RA) learnt how to lobby effectively; bikers don't know how to do this, and the little that is done is directed toward the surfaced roads.

Better get the begging bowls out then.... but who do you think will want to pay for YOUR damage?

Motor Vehicles should stick to the Queen's highway which was designed for this use. Motor vehicles do NOT belong on public bridalways or footpaths etc...

The situation would never have got out of hand the way it so clearly has if motorcylclists had the commonsense to adapt their riding style to the circumstances and to the terrain. I think I'm right in saying that most people who object to trail riders and green-laners do so because their activities are -

1. Too loud
2. Cause large Furrows on tracks ect..

The first reason is easily rectified - get rid of that hidious exhaust system without a baffle and replace it with a standard (legal) exhaust. The only way to stop furrows from being formed is by careful control of the twistgrip. It's not exactly rocket science is it? But is is clearly beyond some muppits who spoil it for the rest of us...

I gave up on offroad stuff years ago because I could see the way it was going. My advice to anyone wanting to get involved in gree-laning is to join a proper offroad club and use their facilities. You can damage their land as you please without santimonious old sods like us giving you a hard time...

It's a great shame things have deteriorated like this because not only is offroading good fun - it has been proven that offroad riders (in general) make much better motorcyclists.

BASICALLY GUYS, WE'VE GOT OURSELVES TO BLAME FOR THIS STATE OF AFFAIRS... :(

You think?

How about the profile of the average mini-moto user tearing around the local council estate, or the average chav MX wannabee on his big brother's old CR125, Or the thousands of ramblers who having since retired have nothing better to do than complain and moan to their tweeded old school chums 'in high places' about not being able to walk in peace along country roads without being disturbed by those damnably noisy and smokey bloody motorcycles..

I for one ALWAYS stop the bike if I see anyone approaching, be they on horseback or on foot, I ALWAYS take the time to smile, wave and have a chat and behave in a decent and considerate way towards them. In all the time I've been using green lanes I've never encountered any other user who has expressed any negative feeling towards me sharing that particular piece of road-space. I would also imagine most TRF members or committed green-laners would behave the same way. Sadly though, people who have lobbying power or the ability to influence decisions rarely 'see' anything but the hooligan element and legislate accordingly. Now that I'm approaching 50 I'm more than a little p!ssed off to be tarred with that same brush.

Motorised recreation in the countryside has always been seen as a bit of a bete-noir but it can only get worse I'm afraid...

Greg

I think Caminando and especially Kentfallen have completely missed the point (and do wonder why Kentfallen has a Daihatsu Terios and an XT600E if you never travel off tarmac?!)

The routes in question are UNSURFACED HIGHWAYS, not footpaths or 'bridleways' or whatever else the misguided press typically refer to them as.

Noone here is advocating using green lanes for winch practice or enduro training - the fundamental pleasure in utilising this network of old roads by motorised vehicle is to travel - and that ought to be evident to anyone subscribing to a 'travelling' forum surely?

I shouldn't have to repeat the clear and concise responses that HenryUK, edteamslr and Big Yellow tractor have already offered... suffice to say that while some 'green lanes' in the UK do indeed cross or flank soft ground, the vast majority of these old roads have a firm rock or stone bed, and are more than capable of sustaining the modest amount of traffic that uses them.

In the few 'problem areas' that have arisen, the local authorities already have a structure in place to close these lanes (temporarily I might add!) while repairs or natural recovery takes place. Typically a seasonal restriction (traffic regulation order), or limited to two-wheeled vehicles for example is (or at least was) the pro-active approach to keeping these lanes open.

What is fundamental, is that these routes are available for ALL users - just because you choose not to use your vehicle on these lanes, doesn't mean they should be closed to those who wish to. The only reason for closing a lane is if it needs repair, or cannot sustain traffic - be it wheeled, hoofed or footed.

That is the crux of the (NERC) legislation mentioned in the first post by Dazzerrtw - it was rushed in as a blanket law that does not allow the condition and the 'suitability' of the lanes to considered on an individual basis - the net result being that the shrinking network is now, in places, becoming overused, and typically highlighted in the hysterical media.

Of course if you purposely reduce the number of available lanes, then clearly those that remain will see an increase in traffic, and the potential for damage increases. A cynic might consider this was the Government's objective all along.

However, what we are talking about here is the systematic and predudical removal of our rights to enjoy a recreation different to one another. You wouldn't see a sign that says " No gays, no blacks, no women" in this country, but it seems "No motor vehicles" is now perfectly acceptable?

xxx

I think you will find many many XT owners use the thing to get around town. Nothing beats it... the virtues of a big trail bike in traffic are well known. As for my Terrios, my other half uses it offroad on her fathers farm... What's the point you're trying to make here by questioning my motives? I'm just as dedicated to riding as you are...

Simply that such machines are ideal for exploring and traveling unserfaced roads, and were designed with this in mind. Might I refer you to your previous (and rather general) quote:

"Motor Vehicles should stick to the Queen's highway which was designed for this use."

If you only ever use them on-road, then there are far better alternatives (certainly regarding handling performance and economy) for day to day driving?

However, what I really take issue with is your ignorance in the following sentence:

"Motor vehicles do NOT belong on public bridalways or footpaths etc..."

Which is typical of the misunderstanding (and misinformation) directed at the general public at large by groups with a vested interest that have no desire to share what is in fact a public resource with others...

I repeat that noone here is advocating using motorcycles (or 4 wheeled vehicles) on footpaths or bridleways, only those routes that have the historical use of vehicular traffic, and more recently motorised vehicles (which have now been around for well over 100 years as you are no doubt aware).

To simply blanket ban vehicles without any sustainability assessment and particularly discriminate against one user group in preference to (the wishes of) another is bad law - and indeed may yet be proven to be illegal under human rights legislation.

I reitterate: just because you yourself may not wish to travel unsurfaced roads using your motor vehicle/s, should not dictate what other people may or may not enjoy as recreation - and legislation (that was highlighted by Dazzerrtw's initial post) that removes that right FOR ALL OF US means one day you may no longer have the option...

Of course if you are happy to spend your leisure time walking a few miles from your parked car, playing golf, or traipsing round a shopping centre on a Saturday afternoon that's fine... and I'm sure the Government would like nothing more than for all of us to sit in our homes buying more needless stuff on-line, when not busting our arses at work of course...

But please consider that in the future, perhaps you might wish to take your family or an elderly relative for a picnic or to camp on top of a Welsh mountain for example?

xxx

Ah ha Human Rights! Tony and Cheries wonderful legacy... I'm off...

If non-tarmac roads can't cope with vehicles, how come so many of the world's roads are, erm...non-tarmac?

Matt :)

not to mention the fact that a lot of the 'green lanes' were either tarmaced or hard-packed and graded within the last 50-60 years......

Maintenance is the answer, not prohibition. Why is this even an argument?!?!?

I agree with everything which has been said regarding keeping these ancient routes and by-ways open to all traffic. Generally speaking responsible trail riders do not abuse the routes and are as keen as anyone to see them preserved.
No doubt some of these routes will be damaged but nature has a way of recovering itself. The earth has been around a lot longer than us and will almost certainly be around for a long time after we've gone.
There's no point in preserving things if we can't use and enjoy them.

save some
 

Can’t ride off-road round my place (Isle of Wight) anymore, shame it is.

When I was a lad at school about 28 years ago, a bunch of us got hold of a puch maxi moped thing. We’d push it on the roads until we got onto the local fields, because kids had respect for the old bill in those days, they could clip you round the ear and cart you off home, still that’s not the point.

I’ve only had my TT600RE since February, the other night I went round my friends’ house, he had a Honda C90 and used to play in the same fields and lanes back then. We got talking about the old days when we’d nip-up and learn how to get the peds airborne :)

We couldn’t think of one place that we could go anymore without getting busted. We think if people still had the same amount of common sense and respect as we had then, things would be different now.

I say save a few, we’re not all irresponsible. Mongolia is a long way for some good off-road action

Dirt road technology
 

It is no more a fact than the last time you said it.

In Sweden, the USA and NZ, to name three other locations, they have and maintain 1000s of miles of dirt roads and they are good at it.
Here in the UK the highway engineers also know how to build and maintain dirt roads - it is not rocket science, the Romans did it here a couple of millenia ago, or thereabouts.

However, we don't do it for the reasons that I have outlined previously.

Im afraid I'll have to side with Caminando on this one...

What an earth has Greenlaning to do with your goddamn human rights? Precisely nothing! The future for greenlaning is bleak because a minority of idiots have caused so much needless damage. When I play golf I go round repairing the divits in the grass afterwards... If I didn't do this I'd be kicked off the course.

Instead of giving us a hard time for facing FACTS, why not have a word with a few of your fellow greenlaners who are causing this type of selfish damage?

So I presume you are one of those people who are happy to spend their leisure time clogging up the roads with your car, just to walk a couple of miles? or wondering aimlessly around a shopping centre?

You have not bothered to read or digest anything that I or the others have said - not all green lanes in the UK are muddy, many are rock and stone - and those lanes that have been damaged whether that is by wheel or foot or hoof are able to be temporarily closed by the local authority for repair or maintenance.

What we are objecting to is the blanket reclassification of these lanes without any assessment to their suitability or sustainability, and the total disregard of the Government to consider there is a small percentage of the population who enjoy recreation different to others, and still provide for them accordingly.

Indeed it is only in recent times that the Government took any interest in this subject whatsoever - for years (centuries in many instances) the public have been able to travel this network of old roads by whatever means they feel most appropriate to their circumstances.

The few problem areas that have arisen in recent times (and that the media repeatedly and so loving highlight) are quite able to be controlled with the current legislation. However, a few specific examples should surely not dictate a whole policy?

I don't hear calls for mount Snowdon to be closed to walkers, even though in 2006 £800,000 of tax payers money was used to helicopter stone up to repair the footpaths that have been damaged by walkers.

There are many more hundreds of miles of footpath and bridleway in this country that are soley for non-motorised 'recreational' traffic. Can you really begrudge those who wish to use motor vehicles to access the countryside the 2% of the network that is still available to ALL users?

I would suggest it is you who needs to arm yourself with a few 'facts' and actually research this subject a little more thoroughly before you blithely cast aspersions - rather than regurgitating hysterical media hearsay and pissing off to France when it suits you...

xxx

Now that is a fair point you have made - it can't be denied that certain areas have suffered in more recent times from overuse and misuse by riders and 4x4 drivers who really ought to know better.

However, as I have mentioned previously and above, a few specific cases should not dictate a country ne nationwide policy surely? Not when there is already the facility to close 'problem' lanes as required.

It ought to be up to the local authority to decide which of their unsurfaced roads are able to sustain vehicular use, and in appropriate regions, clearly signpost these routes so that ALL users are aware of their status and can choose to use them accordingly? We all ride and drive vehicles these days - why has using them on an unsurfaced route suddenly become some sort of crime?

xxx

You presume too much - I dont have a car. And my last walk was not 2 miles but 300miles.

I have read what you say and reject it as unscientific, and ahistoric.

I do not "cast aspersions"; I use facts. I never regurgitate news reports, and I make up my mind based on evidence/facts. I suggest you do the same; it may be a first for you.

What has "pissing off to France" got to do with anything, other than an infantile bit of rudeness - you're just throwing your toys out of the pram.

However, I will grant you one thing; your tenacity in the face of evidence and facts has got me beat. You have convinced yourself that black is white and I cant help you any more. Trying to inform Flat Earthers is like beating your head off a brick wall - it's great when it stops....so as that business Dragon on TV says " Your idea isnt a viable proposition, so for that reason - I'm out".

Caminando, with the greatest of respect, it seems to be you who is unable to see anyone else's point of view, and that the situation is not black or white but indeed many shades of grey, if also brown...

Myself and others are merely pointing out that not ALL green lanes are unsustainable for motorised vehicles, and that the authorities ought to acknowledge that and provide (where appropriate) for those who wish to travel other than by foot or hoof. Blanket bans do nothing but appease a few selfish and misguided individuals.

There is space in this country for everyone, and we ought to be fostering a spirit of cooperation and community as fellow countryside users - addressing problems where they arise, and not setting one group against another as if any one form or recreation is more valid than another?

I would be interest to hear (although I respect you have bowed out of this discussion) where you have gleaned your facts from exactly?

I myself have spent the past twenty years cataloging a huge number of byways and green lanes in England and Wales, am a member of the Cambrian Mountains Project sustainability forum and have written extensively on the subject of Rights Of Way in both the two and four wheeled press over many years. I consider myself more than adequately armed with the 'facts' of what is actually happing on the ground in this country, and am not prepared to accept biased generalisations regarding access to the countryside for ALL users.

Kindest regards,

xxx

KAPOW! (I think that's what the yoof call a 'bitch-slap'!)

Matt :)

Facts
 

Just returning to the original reply from C, there are no facts quoted, but opinions about the capability of lanes and it just goes on from there: not a single fact, in fact.

Lets not allow this discussion to get too personal or childish...

I really see nothing wrong with what Caminando has stated here. He's entitled to his opinion as indeed you ALL are. Personally, I admire him for standing up against all your combined mass...

We ALL need to remember that we are ALL motorcyclists together and that we share a common passion. An opinon is formed from direct life experiences.

In a perfect world you guys would have unfettered access to all Green Lanes but this country is a long way from being perfect at the moment. This damn government fails to mend and maintain the highways therefore it's not entirely surprising they aren't going to spend money on your beloved Green Lanes. If things are ever going to change for the better we need to get rid of the Human Rights Act / Health and Safety Nazis ect.. and establish a "Ministry of Common Sense" with a wide remit and full executive powers. I fear that the future for Green-Laning is bleak to say the least

very true
 

Well said dude, that statement smacks true with so many things in life...

I agree with the "Ministry of Common Sense" While we are at it, can we also have a new criminal charge of "Being a Twat" I think with both of them in place it would take about three weeks to sort the country out.

You are right that the future of green laning is bleak. I have even had aged TRF stalwarts tell me that when all they lanes have gone, they will probably end up running an old bike with no plates and go back to riding the lanes as they used to 30 years ago.

The problem with locking "twats" up like this is that we wouldn't have any government ministers left to run (sorry - ruin) OUR country.

Our servants (people that we elect to parliament to represent OUR views) are now becoming our masters without our knowledge or permission!

The Green-Lane problem which we are discussing here directly concerns these twats. Nothing is likely to EVER change for the better all the whilst the people elect lib/lab/con.

A convert is always welcome!
 

Well that's a change of view in the last 24 hours: it is never too late to come on-side with the way ahead for Green Lanes, among all of the other issues that have cropped up.

Unfortunately, regarding the "we are all riders together theme", this does not stack up against some of the opinions expressed to date - but this thread is not unique in that regard!

BTW
"The trouble with common sense is that it is none too common".

With regard to Green-Lanes, local authorities (county, town, district, borough and parish councils) are charged with looking after these environmental issues:

:offtopic:

The UK government has now empowered these local goverment departments with enforcement powers which before were normally performed by central government departments (Home Office etc..).

It is now possible for local authorities to act as quasi-police in respect of parking, environmental health and highway matters. Local councils now possess powers that were usually the remit of MI5 (Security Service), such as monitoring telephone conversations and obtaining subscriber records from the telephone providers. This is quite worrying for a so called free and democratic country.

These local authorities are controlled by elected councellors who are supposed to do what the local people want (who voted them into their appointment). Unfortunetely this doesn't always happen as you guys are finding out. The councils are staffed by politically correct wooly minded liberals with more interest in pleasing central govenment than acting on behalf of the local people whom they are supposed to serve and represent.

Since 1997 the local government changes in the UK have been enormous (some including myself would say disasterous)! Our servants now look upon themselves as our MASTERS! This is the reason why you guys are getting nowhere. These morons think they are above the law and make decisions which benefit themselves and their mates. It's all about getting "Brownie Points" so they can climb the slippery ladder to ultimate power. Sod the local people, "I want my new Range Rover"!

Nothing is going to change soon because most local governments are obssessed with GREEN ENVIRONMENT issues and RECYCLING! This is the reason why Green Lanes take a back seat. You guys are the ENEMY and no one is likely to rock the boat all the while all these green policies are generating huge amounts of extra revenue.

It's all about personal enrichment.

:offtopic:

My advice - Get rid of you're offroaders and get a road bike... You need to adapt to the circumstances. There are simply NOT enough of you to change anything... This is what Caminando and myself were telling you... The alternative is to waste your time making a pointless stand and finding an early grave through stress!

Sorry to get so political here but it had to be said. It will be interesting to learn if any of you chaps have a different slant on things... Or am I just paranoid?

I do have a road bike but don't use it very much at all. I do more miles off-tarmac than on. Trail riding doesn't give me any stress at all; completely the opposite. Even when we have a day full of problems; drowned bikes, snapped chains, punctures, etc it still is the best fun you can have per pound spent. I will continue to enjoy it responsibly for as long as I can.

No...
 

...I don’t think your being paranoid. But, I can’t see many people from this site in the UK getting road bikes just because green lanes are such an issue.

I’ve just come from 100+ hp road bikes, and if you’d told me this time last year I’d be having this much fun on a sub 50hp bike, I’d of laughed in your face. Having sooo much fun…… I’m not about to get back on a road bike, I love my new bike, more smiles per hour than miles per hour.

What gets me is people say we can’t sustain green lanes. The west has just landed an unmanned space craft on MARS – we can do that, but can’t grade a few tracks?

I live on the Isle of Wight, it would cost next to nothing for a ‘small’ cross island network. I’m sure if it was policed properly for example, only open for the dry months in the year, with, maybe a tariff for riding it, I’d buy a pass card or whatever.

Depending were you live in the UK – some have access to dirt, some don’t. So it looks like I’m off to Wales for my holidays, or maybe Mongolia for a few weeks.

Shaun