Does it matter to you?
 

I mean visiting dodgy countries.

The sort of places which, for example, invade other countries, kidnap, take hostages, kill indiscriminately, take political prisoners, torture or assassinate those they dont like and which generally have a poor record on human rights.

Do you take this into consideration when trip planning? Do you say it's none of your business and anyway what difference does my visit make? Does it matter?

I refer to countries which practice many or some of the above actions, such as some of the 'Stans, Myanmar, India (in Kashmir), the US, Libya, Israel, Egypt, Syria, and so on. There are many more.

So how do you calm your conscience? If it needs calming at all.

haha, I find it hilarious that you lump in the US with the Stans, Libya, Syria, and other countries that "kidnap, take hostages, kill indiscriminately, take political prisoners, torture or assassinate those they dont like and which generally have a poor record on human rights". While we're at it, what do you feel about countries that negotiate with, and pay ransoms to, terrorists?

Probably better to answer the (very interesting, I think) question than derail the thread by debating which countries should be included in someone's list.

FWIW, I make efforts to assess the effect of my visits and my spending--buying locally from people and organizations I respect rather than indicriminately for example--but I've never managed to work out whether my visit to repressive places helps or hinders those responsible for the repression. Am I offering support by my presence and spending? If so, to whom? As far as I can tell, repressive regimes (including in my home country, the USA) have tended to fall due to increased availability of information and dialogue, not boycotts and ostracism. However, I'm far from certain about the validity of my interpretations of events.

I do think it's important on a smaller scale that we assess the impacts of our tourist presence and actions. If not careful, we tend to convey an attitude of disdain and disrespect for local cultures--"Hey waiter! I ordered a beer 5 minutes ago! Where's it at? What's wrong with these people?" (a direct quote from an overland motorcyclist I met). If determined, I think it's possible to communicate respect and value instead, of which virtually all people and cultures can use all they can get.

There are also issues of precisely when during normal seasonal cycles to travel--I try to avoid the hungry seasons which precede harvests in many places, during which my purchasing power will drive up the cost of scarce food for locals--and what sorts of merchants to patronize, with preference given to buying as locally as possible so that funding is directed to local people, not middlemen or outsiders.

And lastly, I think it's important that anyone traveling in and enjoying the Developing World find ways to give something substantial in return. By this I mean more than the bits of cash you leave behind--rather, something enduring in the form of good works, ongoing relationships, donations to charities, or whatever.

Interested to hear what others have to say.

Mark

(lounging around in tropical Panamanian heat on my return trip northward)

If I were to start compiling a list of countries to avoid because of actions they have taken which I object to, there wouldn't be a single one left for me to visit. If people think about it honestly, I'm guessing I'm not alone in that view.

Consider also that one of the primary reasons many people travel is to broaden their horizons, meet the locals, and find out for themselves what other countries and cultures are like. Finding out the truth of such countries is the reason such people do visit those places.

Personally, I will only avoid countries because of safety concerns (e.g. war zones) or because the country makes it more difficult to enter than it is worth to me (China maybe, haven't decided yet).

There are no countries not guilty of those crimes !!

The US is probably the biggest criminal invading country in the world and Britain has a DREADFUL history of rape, murder and pilage throughout its colonies. Would you avoid Spain because it was the last country to abolish slavery or maybe avoid France because it blows up pacific islands with Nuclear weapons ?

The western countries are far better at putting a spin on it all aren't they ! The west murder with a smile and handshake.

Anyway, I don't visit a country to see its polititians, government and generals... I go to see the REAL people who generally never represent their government, especially in the 3rd world.

Governments, borders and politics are best left ignored when travelling. Just my 0.2p worth.

Bravo! Well said Ted .. :clap:
.

I agree Ted, "Politics" is a dirty word and best never mentioned. I even left this subject alone when I was in the US, even though I have strong thoughts on their foreign policies.

Best to keep a low profile, don't mention the war and just interact with the locals as best you can and of course buy off the street vendors where ever possible so the money goes to the right place.

btw - I am probably guilty of asking for a beer and expecting it within a reasonable amount of time, after all, I am the customer ;)

Cheers
TS

"Reasonable amount of time" is a cultural construction, in the ordering of beer as in all else. In Latin America I expect service which I'd consider insulting in North America (or Australia), because that's what local culture dictates. When they serve my beer slowly, they are treating me like the customer. They just define this differently.

That doesn't mean I don't wish they'd hurry the hell up; it means I'm somewhat obligated to be patient as a sign of respect for local culture.

But then again, I like to talk politics wherever I go. I've had some fun times talking about American interventionist tendencies, for example, in Muslim countries as well as throughout the places throughout Latin America which have suffered mightily due to USA support for all sorts of abusive people and policies. I believe it's possible to have these discussions respectfully, and I always learn from them. It's my hope that so do the people to whom I talk. Sometimes they paint a far more favorable picture of my country's history than I do myself.

Mark

I will not visit Israel until I can visit Palestine. Call it politics if you will, but a person has to have some standards, otherwise who are you?

One thing I've found is that golbal 'politics' is too polarised to be reliable. Whaty I mean is that every country thinks their neighbours are a bunch of b*£$ards and the further two countries are apart generally the more distorted their views of what it is actually like.

In Europe Gengis Khan is a muderous bandit who pilaged half the world, in Central Asia he is a heroic leader that united the warring factions and created an iimmense economical power.

My advice would be open your mind and adjust or completely remove your expectations. I had been told terribel things about Albania before I went in, expected the worst, had a run in with the Mafia and they ended up buying me dinner and we all got wasted on the local spirit. Had I expected a eurpoena well served holdiay experience I would have come away a bit shocked, instead I loved the place.

In response to the earlier point 'surprised to see the US grouped in with the Stans I would feel a hell of a lot safer in central asia than in North America - not from fear of the government buit fear of the general gun-toting population robbing me. A lot of places that get a bad rap in the west get it because the government has an iron grip on the population. This in turn means the population are unlikely to give you any crap. Plus outside of 'westernised' countries life may be cheap but nearly everyone has the kindess of strangers that we seem to have lost.

That said I have some limits and the following places are in my 'hopefully they will calm down so I can go' list: Sudan, Somalia, North Columbia (Darien Gap area), Afghansitan and Iraq. Over-riding principle for me is live and let live with customs and politics but don't get yourself killed.

why do you travel? for changing the world or seeing the real live over there?
every country on the planet has "dark side". i just travel to see the real live, meet the locals. i am trying to act like a traveller and not a politician.

...So another thinly veiled attempt at trolling. Nice.

Spot on :thumbup1:

I agree with what seems to be the general concensus on here: travelling is about seeing people and places not governments.

This is no truer than when you go to a place that might be on the UK FCO avoid list and find the most welcoming people imaginable.

Your journey, provided it is made in a manner respectful of those you visit, will have a positive impact on locals be it financially or personally, by meeting a new person from another background.

Surely, that is a good thing...

In other words:
No, a country's regime will not affect my decision to visit, unless I feel it poses too great a risk to our safety.

As expected, some individuals make assumptions about my personal views. Naughty.

I myself have visited countries which I think are dodgy, and I wondered how others squared their conscience. Nobody should be surprised about the inclusion of the US as dodgy. I neednt spell out what the US has done, for many years. The UK used to be as bad , but much less now, apart from dodgy arms deals.Those who say politics doesnt matter - tell that to those who are victims of the above dodgy countries. Or try riding through Afghanistan, and tell me that you're not into politics; believe me, you soon will be. Someone once said "You may not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you". But I didnt pose the question for political reasons, but for reasons of bike travel and your conscience. We do visit dodgy countries, so it's worth discussing.

The ostrich who said this was trolling needs help and must get his act together.

I'm not surprised by your comment--very little that people say on the HUBB surprises me anymore--but I do find it ridiculous to equate the US with Libya, Syria, etc. You can talk about our horrible deeds all you want, but it is on a whole different level from most of the other countries referenced in your list.

Yup the US just does it on a grander scale.

I travel without real notice of local/international politics where-ever possible, it gives you the chance to see the country as defined by its people as opposed to defined by its politicians.

Oh a political post!
Yes the USA dose do it big. We had grate teachers. Not near the size of the grate Khans, Rome, Napoleon,. More recent France, Holland, Spain, Portugal, USSR, China, Japan, Germany and the worst of them all Grate Britten. Sun never setts on the British empire! looks like the song was right "we didn't start the fire"

As for the USA and doggy we do have places I will not go. As a whole we are safe and accepting. The most wanted person by the USA Osama Bin Laden family was in the USA during 9/11 they where put on a plane and sent to safety.
All that and most people are let in to the USA even if we are at war, even if we are at odds with your government. Even If you come to do nothing but shout at the politicians. Hell we do it all the time dose not help.

As for me doggy? Local doggy parts of citys scare me more than nations do. Politicians all lie they use the "news" to scare you and then controlling you is that much easier, around the wold it is all the same. Hate them there there bad they do xyz Fear them over there they do abc We are better than them. US, GB, the EU, Libya, Syria, Iran all the same hate and fear is all they want it is a scam. Start a war jack up the tax control the people and send in the poor to get killed. When is the last time the people got a thing from a war? It is the rich and politicians that get power. I try not to fall for it but sometimes I do. My money is on the people not the government.

Great Britain :freezing:

:stupid: my bad. But I was on a rant, I was on a roll did not have time stop, poor edumication, what with the public schools we have here I am lucky to even know where the UK is.

No it was just me being me!

It's great this quoting out of context stuff.:nono: Are "Local doggy parts" the bits you would lick if you could? :funmeteryes: Or some sort of "style" thing?:taz:

Sincerely apologies for taking this thread off-track. Won't do it again, promise.:oops2:

later
C

No DL, it isnt a political post except in the sense of asking people if a country's human rights record influenced their travel plans. This is not a political forum and I dont treat it as such; some do. You're like a few others who are well offtopic. :offtopic:

The question gives a few examples and asks does this make a difference to you? Thats all. You dont have to agree with the list, I really dont care; just stay on topic and answer if you can. I said there were many countries which were dodgy - you take your pick. Or say you dont care if you want- say whatever you think if its on topic.

This is a perfectly valid, relevant and topical issue - I hoped that HUBBers were aware of the topic and had thought about it. Some have, but a few others went off on a tangent somewhere. :thumbdown:

For what it's worth, most dont seem to care about visiting dodgy countries. Some do. Thats their business and I offer no comment on that.

I dont talk about "your horrible deeds" and I'm not here to list in detail the human rights issues. I just ask you if a country's record influences your travel plans . You decide whats dodgy, not me. Its not a political forum. Stay on topic.

Stop dodging the question.Is there a place you wouldnt visit because of its record? If this isnt important, well just say so...

Jeez, it's like pulling teeth.

The country's human rights record does not influence my travel decisions unless it would jeopardize my own safety. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to travel in my own country, or any country accessible by road from where I live. Every country has at some time had human rights violations. When the human rights violations are against my own kind (gay) then I will try to avoid those countries or the less tolerant parts of otherwise safe countries if I feel that my safety is seriously compromised.

The rationale is that I'm directly interacting, and spending money, with the people and not the governments. Generally speaking there are good people all over the world and they should not be punished for something their government, drug cartels, hate groups, etc, etc, are doing.

Boycotting governments = OK
Boycotting the people = harmful
...IMHO


...Michelle
www.scrabblebiker.com

Maybe it's not a typo. It GRATES on me sometimes too :blushing:

Well then no it does not matter to me what the government dose I am not going there to see the government.

No there is no place I wouldnt visit because of its record. It isn't important.

Reason: I come from a country that has committed more, for want of 2 better words, "war crimes" than most others over the past couple of hundred years. It would be a bit rich me telling other to get their house in order, when mine stinks.

I clearly don't condone or support these crimes, nor the alleged crimes of the countries I visit. It's been said previously on this thread by many others: I happen to use a m/c to visit countries to learn their culture, see their landscapes, ride their fun roads/non-roads and meet their ordinary people, not to analyse the internal policies/foreign policy initiatives of their allegedly elected representatives/tinpot dictators.

It's been said that 3 topics are never boring: politics, sex and religion. I don't usually discuss the first. Somebody else once said politics is Hollywood for ugly people. I prefer pretty people.

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...SCN41878x6.jpg
Yesterday at Universal Studios Hollywood 1

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...SCN42358x6.jpg
Yesterday at Universal Studios Hollywood 2

Chris, tomorrow at Disneyland

The consensus of opinion from most of the people I've spoken to or heared speak about travelling to these 'dangerous' countries is that we are often the victim of western media hype - it's usually not as bad as it is portrayed in our 24hr news.

I certainly think that there is an inverse correlation between the attitudes of the government and that of its people. For example many of the poorest and oppressive countries can be some of the most generous and friendly countries too. The HU community is FULL of such stories... search anf you shall find.

In my opinion, worse than politics is religion... I would almost certainly give the topic a wide birth in some countries that are notoriously intolerant, which is a hard one for me because I'm somewhat of an agent provocateur of non-belief. I would discuss it, but only if I knew that they were not going to cut off my head! Soemtimes people hear things as insulting or offensive no matter how diplomatically I say it.

However, I'm am certainly an advocate of being open minded but not so much so that your brain falls out. You need to keep your wits about you in any country but they are usually for different reasons. Furthermore, despite the religiosity of a country these peope too can be very welcoming to travelers but caution must still be take, at least until you've weighed them up.

In conclusion, it would not affect me. I'm going to take what I hear from the authorities and the media with a great big pinch of salt. At the same time I'll do my own research and realisitcally assess the danger of each individual country as and when required. Things change very quickly, what was true 6 months ago may not be true today and what is true today may have completely changed in a year.

Fnally, If I wanted a totally risk free life I would never leave the house let alone be an adventure motorcyclist!

There isn't a country in the world which doesn't have some 'doggy' element in its past. Hell, Switzerland only gave the vote to women a few years back!

I think if travel has taught me anything, it's that people are pretty much the same wherever you go. Often, the administration that rules them is almost totally dissociated from the people. Even in a democracy like the UK, only a small proportion of the population will often agree wholeheartedly with the administration.

Bearing this in mind, it would seriously limit the options for travel if we limited ourselves to countries with good records on human rights. Much as I like Scandinavia, I don't want to go only there on holiday for the rest of my life.

I believe that much of the world's international political problems are due to a fundamental misunderstanding of humanity - an ignorance of the fact that that the man (or woman) in the street in Tehran is essentially the same as the man in the street in Dallas, and the man in the street in Lyon, and the man in the street in Tokyo, and... well, you get the picture. Politicians exploit the ignorance of their electorate for their own ends. George Bush might be considered a very good example of this. Without this ignorance 'evil' administrations would find it far more difficult to murder, kidnap, invade etc. in the name of security.

If only more people travelled to the countries damned by the administrations of their own, perhaps the world would be a more peaceful place! ;)

Matt :)

Norman bastards
 

Well, I was never too keen on visiting Normandy, but I feel better about those folks now:-


The Norman conquest of the TV schedule | spiked

Could even grow to love em!
:innocent:
For miscellaneous other parts of world to fret about, there are a selection here:-
spiked | all issues

I probably don't have one :innocent::rofl:

There are ****wits in all countries. I view it as a reflection on a country as to how these people are allowed to get away with it, especially if they work for the government. I'm at a point in my travels where I really can't be bothered to get felt up by "security" to get in, be served chemically modified beer by some bored halfwit who can't be bothered and then have to bribe someone to get out. Still, I live here, so you get used to it :rofl:

I would now honestly pick destinations as a balance of what's there versus how much hassle there is to get there. I think a countries politics are part of that equation. I travelled in Eastern Europe when it was still under the communists and it many ways you can see why the parts of the population that weren't in the salt mines might look back with a certain nostalgia. The men in dirty macs who followed us in the Trabants were commical. Didn't bother me in the slightest that their mates at HQ were probably kicking the **** out of some poor soul for listening to the wrong radio station. Maybe it should have?

Andy

Sincere?:freezing:

I refuse to visit Disneyland because of the blatant commercial anthropomorphism .

And I mean that most sincerely .:innocent:

I visited Disneyland today. I suggest not going there if you can't appreciate the beauty of the place either.:

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...SCN44888x6.jpg

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...SCN45078x6.jpg

Didn't ask them their views on geopolitics. Maybe should have done.


Saw this though, which was my highlight:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...SCN44968x6.jpg

Sincerely Randy

You know, I like what Matt, Markharf and Stephen have said, especially the bits about the people being good and govts being the problem. For example, the Syrians are noted for their friendliness as are the US citizens, at least in my experience. Iranians are well known for kindness. But their govts all stink IMO. I liked the guy who said he'd visit Israel if he wasnt blocked from visiting Palestine. Thoughtful responses, something which may be increasingly rare.

On the other hand, Ang Sang Su Shi (spelling wrong here) of Myanmar/Burma has asked tourists not to visit there as it supports the vicious junta who deposed her democratically elected govt.

So it requires some thinking about where you travel - the whole point of this thread. You make your choices based on awareness, if you have any.

Thanks to Chris for his posts from the home of Mickey Mouse in Disneyland, where he is on holiday, but maybe just a tad off topic?:funmeterno: He did mention that I think.

Sexy stuff !! Land of the (fat) free it aint ! :rofl:

................

LOL I think I ate dog once not bad at all bit like pork with less fat.

But looks like you got some shots of real corn fed pasty white mid westerns. Wonder if the 1200 gs will hold the two. Extra points if you can get some shots like that on the beach, more still if there sun burned red.

I fully feel my post was ON topic because I was refering to Dodger's post who said he wasn't going to Disneyland....:innocent:

What about all the comments in this thread by other HUBBers which are off topic? I feel I'm being victimised and singled out. I don't appreciate this. Are we in Burma, or what?:nono::censored:

Sincerely Randy

Hi Randy
Now who says you're off track? Could it be you? I think we should be told!:funmeteryes:
:scooter:

Hi Denis
Without it appearing to be like Groundhog Day, I again refer you to the above posts regarding Hollywood/Disneyland etc: Fully on topic. With regard to the "doggy" comment you refer to, clearly it is off topic and I pointed that out when I wrote it. Thanks for reading my comment. It was an attempt at humour to lighten up an already super duper thread. Obviously not all HUBBer found it funny.

If you have a problem with all this off-your-interesting-topic-ness, please give the other off-topic-ers some grief too. Furthermore it would be nice if you didn't edit and delete various posts 24 hours or so after they are originally written in non confrontational manner to now insult other users. Please don't ask me to tell you which ones they are and split hairs about it. You know exactly what you've done.

Sincerely Randy

Bigotry and hatred are for narrow-minded people. Travel broadens the mind.

AMEN!!

...Michelle
www.scrabblebiker.com

[quote=chris;300503]Hi Denis
Without it appearing to be like Groundhog Day, I again refer you to the above posts regarding Hollywood/Disneyland etc: Fully on topic. With regard to the "doggy" comment you refer to, clearly it is off topic and I pointed that out when I wrote it. Thanks for reading my comment. It was an attempt at humour to lighten up an already super duper thread. Obviously not all HUBBer found it funny.





If you have a problem with all this off-your-interesting-topic-ness, please give the other off-topic-ers some grief too. Furthermore it would be nice if you didn't edit and delete various posts 24 hours or so after they are originally written in non confrontational manner to now insult other users. Please don't ask me to tell you which ones they are and split hairs about it. You know exactly what you've done.





My dear Randy,

Its difficult to know what you mean. Really difficult.

Yes you are on topic if you say so.

I have alerted many HUBBers to this thread who would like to see what you say:they are copying it all, they like it so much. A number of them contacted me about this thread, as you did. They know each post which has been"deleted" especially the ones which were interested in my thread.

A big thanks for your talk at Ripley, and thanks for the pics of people in Disneyland. I admire anyone who gives a talk on HU, as my previous testimonial, posted on the HUBB as a kind of stickie, for several years shows. Did you see it?

Best wishes for your next trip!:thumbup1:

Edit......PS I often edit my posts for clarity- is that wrong in some way? HU allows it so I think it's ok, dont you?

Edit Ps second edit, I corrected "on" for "in" cos I made a typo. Is that OK?

Edit I have edited this post three times, BTW.

OOps 4 times now!!!!

Is this what you mean ?
 

Thanks Chris or Randy, I see what you mean.

Thought provoking.
 

When I first read this thread it struck me as making a really important point. Travel should surely be more than just looking and taking photos. There are bigger issues and some are not pleasant at all. By hearing from people from other cultures, via HUBB, I personally get a view different from that I can get from filtered and biased news sources.
Thanks Caminando for this thread which was not in any way that I can see militant or other than conversational. Can I take this opportunity to recommend anyone reading who's curious or interested in learning?....medialens - correcting for the distorted vision of the corporate media - corporate media issues. Rogue State by William Blum or his Killing Hope. Almost anything written by Noam Chomsky. The world can only be better with better knowledge and understanding. Lindsay

Just read the first post again and wonder about visiting countries that take reality (or versions of) and manufacture a marketable version of it to make vast profits and apply those profits to manipulate and manufacture........How many are held hostage by a box in the corner beaming really important stuff from around the world? How many of the watchers know what's really happening? The only way to know is to go and see for yourself and view everything you see with an open mind, unclouded by the propaganda that the powers that be deem fit to allow us to be influenced by. The land of the free has one of the largest prison systems in the world, oppression occurs on many levels, it's easy to influence and be influenced by rare extreme events. See it for yourself for what it is and make your own mind up about it.
Tolerance and understanding please.
And more beer

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised Gil Scott Herron

I can't see it being computerised either, I've just looked at the posts on here and can't help but think.....you just have to get on and ride, either you'll love it or you'll find something else to do.

Good call. And I'd be unable to stay in my own country as well, so I'd have to move to the moon.

Some very interesting points here!

To add my 0.2p's worth, China is somewhere I've always fancied going, but can't seem to get past it's Government's issues with Tibet / the Dalai Lama. I'm sure the people are fantastically welcoming, and I've been fascinated by its culture for years.

I think I'd also have issues going to Zimbabwe, purely because of Mugabe.

Conversely, I'm thoroughly looking forward to going to other African contries in order to experience cultures far different from my own. I think it is these differences that get me most excited about overland travel. As many others have said, its the people that make travelling interesting and worth while.

Interesting topic and I agree with the sentiments that we travel to see the sights, the people and form our own judgement about different places.

Without having experienced a place first hand, you are relying on other's opinions and these mostly have biases of one kind or another.

While I don't want to lump white collar crimes with torture and murder, I find it interesting that there is not a huge difference in behaviour between developed and third world countries.

You will all be familiar with the situation here in Ireland: money is being taken from the poorest in our society and given to the bankers and politicians. This is what we condemn dictatorships for.

Similarly, corruption in the political class and them giving jobs to their mates and family. When I was in Kenya, I was appalled at this injustice but because it was tribal I didn't realise that our political tribes are exactly the same.

I recently installed a satellite TV and am facinated by Russian and Aljezeera TV. You suddenly realise how shallow our terrestrial stations are. (Any other fans of Max Kaiser out there?) I see a bigger world full of people the same as me but with different cultures and experiences. I want to get out there and meet them.

To add my 0.2p's worth, China is somewhere I've always fancied going, but can't seem to get past it's Government's issues with Tibet / the Dalai Lama. I'm sure the people are fantastically welcoming, and I've been fascinated by its culture for years.

I read a book by a journalist travelling across China on Route 312. He went to Tibet and most of the locals welcomed all the investment by China. They have hard lives and see progress creating opportunities for their kids so they won't have as hard a life. It's easy to overlook this when you start looking at situations through the lens of ideology.