$250 for killing a cow?
 

Hi I was just reading Lionel Haggard and Jerry Finley's travel blog where they mentioned they drove into a cow in Ethiopia (killling it) and caused damage to one of their bikes. They then paid $250 to the locals as compensation????
I don't know if this is just me but doesn't this sound crazy?
I drove that same road 3 years ago and came across plenty of road kill (never hit anything) but wouldn't even contemplate giving the locals a penny if I had hit something. My understanding of the rules of the road in Ethiopia is that famers are obliged to keep their animals off the roads and it is they are at fault if an accident occurs like the above.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but this idea that the local farmer must be compensated is insane. It leaves many wrong messages - Animals have right of way, differnt rules for tourists, It's open season to rip off tourists, Next biker has a harder time.
It is this type of ilogical thinking will keep Ethiopians in the dark ages.
Kids threw stones at us when we were there because we refused to give them money and pens all because some previous dumb tourists got a kick out of handing free stuff out.
Next thing you know you will hear a story - biker gets beaten for not paying for cow.
And they didn't even get a steak out of it!!!

Rant over..

If they paid $250 they should have kept the cow!

I'm not sure if it qualifies as 'insane' but it does seem 'a bit unreasonable'.

It might be a bit harsh to critisize the bikers who paid up though. You don't know what the situation was like. Maybe there was a risk of it turning ugly?

I agree with you that we should try to retain our 'rights' as it were while on the road though. Allowing exploitation (either way) helps no-one.

Matt :)

I agree Richard. For too long tourists and trekkers have corrupted native populations by handing out such trinkets. It makes the tourist feel good, with no thought of the indignity to the receiver. It certainly corrupts children as you can see everywhere. How those people must have laughed to get $250 for a cow. What contempt for the next tourist!

Tourists have been told to give pens to the local teacher, but they dont get the feelgood factor out of this, and dont do it. They have only their own interests at heart, and not the interests of the receivers of trash.

We have encouraged nations of beggars to hound us for cheap trash. This has links to charity and all the problems that causes. Again, the personal feelgood factor is what motivates many charity donors, IMO.

In London, people have been asked by homeless help organisations NOT to give to folk on the street but to give it to an organisation, because giving on the street encourages people to be there.

I understand your feeling towards the farmer. However, this accident was no more the bikers fault than it was the guy standing 100 yards up the road, so why should it be the bikers responsibility to pay for the cow? Charity is good, and it would be nice to help out every person we meet in financial difficulty, but taking responsibility for something that isn't your fault is just dumb.

Matt :)

Lads a think a wee "chill pill " is needed
here....
Relax we dont know the facts...
please
regards
joe

I don't understand
 

I don't understand how when you run into a cow it can be said that it was not your fault? I live in cattle country and don't often see cattle so fleet of foot that they can't be avoided by anyone traveling at a reasonable speed.

I think you are confusing the issue a little bit - I experienced many acts of kindness and generosity on the road and also offered the same in return. I fact I felt it was my duty to help where I could but I there's a big difference between kindness/charity and promoting this idea in in these third world countries that tourists are there to give. I met many travellers like myself fed up with Ethiopians demanding gifts/money/pens etc. Tourists due not travel to be be amabassodor - they go to see and to spend.

Should have checked...
 

I have lived in many small agricultural communities in SA, and almost all of them have a town rule that folks MUST contain their animals and if they get onto the road and GET HIT, it is the OWNERS fault. This "killing" a pig or chicken (thank God for ME it has never been a cow!) has happened to me many times, and I only paid the first time before I knew how things work..

We pay for our ignorance!!! Other cultures are not as "disorganized" as it appears to us from outside.... give them a little credit...... :confused1:

An amazing story from our last trip gives a solution on how to keep cows out of the road:

Around the Block 2007 |

SURPRISED ME !!! :eek3:

Toby (charapa) Around the Block 2007 |

We actually replaced the hooter for a much louder one in Cairo after a few too many near misses and it worked a charm (sometimes scared the bejesus out of people) in letting the other road users know you were approaching.

There is a possibility that large amounts of money (relitavely in Ethiopia) could actually encorage farmers to have thier animals "accidentaly" wonder onto the roads? Not a nice thought.
I do believe in trying to make things "right", but it must be kept in perspective or else there is danger of doing more harm than good.
How much could a native buy a cow for in Ethiopia? Only then can one say if this amount was right or wrong.

There are a few western states in the USA that have "Open Range". If you hit a cow or a horse its youre fault and you pay for it.

Cows
 

Not so surprising to me, cows are a form of currency in Ethiopia and are required for many things, including gifting to the brides family when getting married. For many people, they operate in pretty much a cash less society, so if you want to get married, you better have a way of having or coming up with some cows. (Hence the popularity of raiding parties in the south, we didn't realize the common occurrence of such until we ran into a police patrol who pointed out that there was a party of 150 men with AK47's 40 km further up the road that we were riding on. But that's another story.)

The importance of cattle can't be over stated, in the south I had an interesting conversation with a government agricultural official who pointed out that there is a large problem with overgrazing. They insist on owning as many cows as possible and the land base can't support the number of cattle, grazing to the point where they are underfed and stop producing milk. As a result, the owner's family continues to suffer from malnourishment. Very strange from our perspective, but it makes sense to them. Every cow has great value, whether it is thin or not.

The same official warned us that if we did hit a cow, that we could expect and angry mob. One school of thought was to get the hell out of there as soon as possible. He also warned us that in certain areas if a cow was hit and killed and the driver drove off, certain tribes would simply block the road and stop the next vehicle and demand payment from them. When dealing with angry mobs, the logic of the situation and rules of right of way etc. don't hold much sway. And even right of way is mostly a concept for the industrialized world, from a farmers perspective the road is just a smooth trail, the onus is on you to avoid the wandering beasts and people. If an accident happens, the onus is likely on the "perceived rich" westerner who has enough money to actually own a vehicle to prove that he is not at fault at all (difficult) and then to negotiate like heck to make sure that he doesn't get fleeced more than is appropriate.

Quick Calculation:

Average cow weight in Ethiopia = 160kg
Average market price per kg = 16 Eth Birr/kg
160 x 16 = 2560 Birr
Approximate exchange rate 8.3Birr = 1$
2560 / 8.3 = $308

so cash raised from bikers = $250
cash raised from meat = $308
Total = $558
Hmmmmm.....

Mountainman: spot on.

I recall getting a small scrape from a car in India - entirely the other guy's fault. Nothing serious but any contact shakes you up on a motorcycle. We were almost stationary, so everyone got out to talk - no aggression just talk. Crowd gathers.

The English speakers explained to me how I was to blame. There was unanimous consent on this, even from sympathetic parties. They were aghast and surprised that I could not see this. They thought me a bit of a numskull. "Sir you must realise, if you hadn't come here, this would never have happened".

And that was that. What possible argument can you put against such a position?

It is all a matter of culture, expectation and norms. If you're overlanding, then best leave your homegrown versions of cause, culpability and reason at home.

Examples from western countries are no guide to how roads are used in the rest of the world. In inhabited areas they are a public utility for cow droving, children's games, grain threshing, tomato drying, you name it. Right of way? Just assume you don't have it.

The rich visitor is always at fault. This is taken as read. And if the choice is paying or risking injury, then yes, you pay. Of course you do.

Simon

Cheap cow
 

Check the price of cattle in Ireland, the UK or pretty much anywhere else.

So, having paid for the animal, they should have loaded the cow onto the vehicles they are travelling with - if just bikes, then butcher the animal there and then and take the best cuts - still a reasonable deal with the local population I would say.
Negotiation is universal.

The rich visitor is always at fault? Are you havin a larf? This can also be described as mob justice in other parts of the world...
I think if you look into the real rules of the road in these very countries you will find the reality very different. Of course no fool is going to argue too much with an angry mob but you'd have to be a bit of a "numbskull" take it lying down.

You got me laughing at this bit - "if you hadn't come here, this would never have happened". Sounds like if nobody saw it happen, did it even happen at all? If you can't argue with mumbo jumbo then you definitely should take out your wallet even if it was not your fault. Just tell them not all tourists will be such a rollover.

Richardq, I don't know your background, but have you ever travelled in any 3rd world countries? :rolleyes2:

As many others in this post have stated, we are talking about people who live a subsistence existence and their livestock is their complete set of assets. In efect, killing the cow is the equivalent of taking $250 directly out of their bank account, but whilst $250 is pocket change to us, in many cases it represents their life savings.

As Simon Kennedy points out, in these countries the road is not just for traveling along at high speed, it is multi purpose and we need to recognise that we have no greater right to it than others.

With experience comes understanding. :closedeyes:

Garry from Oz.

Ok, this is getting interesting... Yes I have spent a lot of time in third world countries and I believe this subject needs to be discussed further.

If you read the original blog, or have driven that very road as I have, and never speed, you will realise speeding is a separate issue. Secondly, you are incorrect when you describe we have no greater rights than others to the roadway in Ethiopia. Humans come before animals.

The point I was trying to get across earlier is these guys allowed themselves to be fleeced which by itself is no harm. However, in doing so they are setting a precedent, perhaps reinforced with other (heart in the right place) like minded tourists, that tourists are fair game to be swindled. And that you don't need to tend to your cattle when vehicles are about because a profit can be made. It is so sad when you see the locals engaging in any of these devious methods because it has two results:
1. It promotes a dependancy culture - shit happens, someone else will fix it.
2. It will discourage tourists from coming to spend their "big bucks".

It is important to realise that outside of the humanitarian efforts to combact famine/drought and other disasters that Ethiopians are a very proud people and this belief that killing a cow will wipe out a family is ridiculous and a bit insulting to an Ethiopian. They do have their own insurance systems

You are absolutely right that understanding can come from experience. I understand from my experience that charitable/ignorant tourists have a bad effect on these countries and tourists who spend wisely on goods and services can only benefit them.

I'm very interested to see what peoples views are on this.......

Richard that's a pretty strong position you're taking considering you weren't there, and merely read a very skeletal blog entry. I read a description of a motorcycle traveling 80 kph into the setting sun, i.e. too fast for conditions (by definition: if you can't stop in time to avoid whatever happens in front of you, you're going too fast).

In America, the motorist would be considered 100% at fault in such a case, and would be liable for whatever damages could be proven. For example, I once rear-ended a black-painted truck with no lights on a dark road in the rain. My insurance company paid off the damages to the truck....and the LEO who showed up wrote me up for operating in excess of what conditions allowed.

My understanding (based on extensive travel throughout Africa and Asia, both with and without my own vehicle) is that motorists are generally expected to compensate owners of killed or injured animals on the spot. I also understand that this applies to tourists and locals alike....although I'd not be surprised to learn that locals pay substantially less. I've actually witnessed shouted negotiations over a dead chicken, and I've heard about matatus/tro tros/taxis brousses/tuk tuks/etc. being delayed after hitting goats and the like. Standing on a presumed point of law against a hostile crowd might sound like a good idea from 8000 miles away, but I doubt I've got the stomach for it.

It's also true that throughout Africa the wealthy are expected to contribute to the less fortunate in a variety of ways, including by paying more and more widely at every opportunity. That we westerners consider this "unfair," "illegal" or even "immoral" has no real applicability on the ground once we voluntarily enter their world. While I tend to take a strong stand against gifts for begging kids ("stylos! Bon bons!") or for corrupt officials, I'm willing to reserve judgement about payments for actual damages, especially when these are negotiated under circumstances unknown to me.

I'd wonder what an Ethiopian might say about this. Probably something like, "Oh, that cow was only worth $125; they should have bargained harder."

I would add only that, while Ethiopians are certainly proud, that does not mean any specific one of them can easily absorb the loss of an animal. It is not insulting to point this out. I myself am quite proud, but this doesn't make it ok to destroy property of mine worth, say, half my annual income without properly compensating me. Just saying.

Of course, there's plenty of room for alternate explanations and beliefs.

Mark

A very interesting debate.
As a rule, my advice would be pay for nothing...., unless you really really have to.
As a previous poster has mentioned, rocks and things are thrown at as Faranjies in Ethiopia in the hope we will give them pens and sweets like the UN people did...

I used to work for one of the overland companies - and spent 2 years in the Indian Subcontinent. During that time we had a couple of accidents ( not me I might add, just fellow company drvers - thank my lucky stars).

In one a driver hit and killed a pedestrian, who died immediately. A huge crowd gathered and after about 2 hours of discussions and the police providing "protection",a fee of USD200 was agreed to carry the body home and pay for the funeral.

A few months later another driver kit and killed two oxen which ran onto the road. The short story of this - the driver was arrested and spent several months in jail, a fee of USD 3000ish was paid to the owner of the cattle. The company spent several £1000's paying for solicitors, and eventually the driver was smuggled out of India, and a warrant for his arrest probably still exists in India. He was a very experinced driver with over 10 years experience on the road in Asia, Africa and South America....so this could happen to any one of us...

So remember, different cultures place different values on similar events. No matter how good and experinced you are, the sh*t can always hit the fan, and if you have to pay, you pay - simple.

Keep travelling, and keep safe.

Graham

I hit a goat once riding a bike through indonesia. The goat jumped out of the bushes and I'd hit it before I saw it.

Not only did I break a couple of bones in my foot I had to pay $50 for the very dead goat. The locals where very reasonable though - they helped me eat my goat.

A couple of days later I drove through a village where little kids at one end were throwing spikes onto the road and a bunch of teenagers at the other end were ready with tire irons, patches and a portable compressor. That was only $5...

It's all part of the fun of the third world and I look on it as much the same way as when I go into a casino or to buy a car - I know I am going to get skinned and I budget an appropriate amount that I can afford to lose with a smile on my face.

Pay up??!!??
 

I was in India and a similar situation to a previous post... accident, not my fault, crowd gathers, turns to mob, they say i have to pay (which was only $20) to repair the other car (pannier/bike was unmarked, which was remarkable, dont ya love Touratech!) i refused... starts getting very nasty, challenged the biggest guy to be brave and call police, which he did. They arrived and arrested me for not paying!!! took us both to the police station still demanding i pay... i refused and kept seeing more and more senior offices over the next 8 hours... until i ended up in front of the chief of police for the Punjab!! which was getting a little worrying... and he listened to both stories and said... "having travelled to england last year, i believe english man!' and then said the other driver should compensate me! which i obviously refused.

I dont know the full story with the 'Cowergate incident' so cant comment on that directly but...

Should i have paid...? no... and get every other traveller through that village having to pay up for alleged damage/injury... i respect everyones rights in every country, including my own and other travellers.

There seems to be two main camps here - those who will pay up even if it's not their fault, in some kind of 1st World guilt complex, and those who will not be fleeced by rapacious villagers.

Bikers are frequently stoned in Tunisia and in other countries. There's at least one who posted here who would say, " Oh well, if they hadnt gone to those countries they would never have been stoned. It's their own fault".

Then your cows must be pretty fat and lazy! :)

I've seen startled cows moving at a fair lick and, like a lot of animals, move unpredictably. At the end of the day though, what happens in OUR countries is irrelevant. It's what the local laws and rules say that matters. According to an earlier post the Ethiopian road rules state that if a motorist hits an animal it is the fault of the farmer who has failed to control his beast.

All I ask when I go abroad is to be treated with the same rules and respect the locals would treat each other. Unfortunately it increasingly seems that the greater wealth of westerners provides SOME* people with the excuse to fleece us. This encourages a 'them and us' attitude which helps no-one.

After all if I got in an accident with a rich American tourist, I wouldn't attempt to claim it was his fault just because I thought I might be able to get away with it/turn myself a nice profit.

Matt :)

*I say SOME because I hit a guys car in Morocco, entirely my fault, and apologised, offering him what I though it would cost to repair and he gave me about ten euros change! (and then offered me a meal at his house!)

"I'd sell my own granny into slavery for ........"
 

In an earlier post it was said that human life is more valuable than the lives of animals - patently this is not the case in some countries or cultures.
The expectation that human life is paramount is itself a "1st world" attitude that is not borne out in this world.

Ok I can agree india is a totally different situation regarding cows. Just read this-
27 killed as bus falls off mountain road in northern India - Asia, World - The Independent
-but lets not turn africa in to another india....

..Just pay the cow and back to road man...
250 bucks could be a lot of money for that family; don't be greedy.:nono::nono::nono:
It's all a matter culture, education and laws.
Pay the cow, even, sacrifice the cow and do a party and everybody happy.
You stuck fight and fight and you loose stamina, time and at the end.. maybe you could finish pay anyway...
Pay the cow... don't be greedy...:thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:: thumbup1:\

could be
 

Matt
You could be right about the cattle here being fat and lazy. That would explain the great taste of Alberta Beef. This doesn't explain how a person could hit a cow hard enough to kill it and think that they weren't exceeding a safe speed. I have seen children darting on to roadways far quicker than most cattle.

That was my soap box portion. I agree that the price seems a bit high however I believe that payment was due to the owner.

If you come to Canada there are many places where you will be charged if you hit live stock wandering at large on the roadways, particular in any of the thousands of square kilometers of native reserves in this country. Yes there are often signs posted stating livestock at large however after 15 or 20 mminutes you tend to forget them. So if you wish to call the police instead of simply paying the owner then you get to pay for the animal, the repairs to your motorcycle, the fine and any other charges the Police officer, dragged out of his comfortable car, feels fit to apply.

Ride Safe

Rick

Two good points! :) Highland cows are about as fat and lazy as they come and taste great! Plus, it didn't occur to me till you just mentioned it: how do you kill a cow on a motorbike without do some serious damage to yourself! I think we're missing the real point of this story: How to survive a high speed collision with a stationary object and walk away!

Matt :)

Moo
 

What if the Rider was killed,
would the owner of the cow have to compensate his family?

Not up here, if you hit an animal that's your own fault.
I'm okay with that.

Ah, assuming all people from one country share the same world view. Now THAT'S what I call an open minded, mature and progressive attitude! :)

In situations like this it is probably best to pull your handgun, fire a couple of shots in the air and back away slowly telling all the natives to stay calm.

Charlie,
the assumption that all "Irishmen" have the same opinion as I do is ridiculous. I think if you did a little research you would find the Irish as a people and an nation give more in charitable aid to third world countries per capita than any other nation in the world.

That said I can see you are passionate about your opinion and I was seeking other peoples opinion on this to debate it. I completely agree with earlier posts where if the law of the land places the responsility of the dead animal on the driver then obviously the driver must pay up. But in the case of Ethiopia it is my understanding that it is the farmers responsibility to ensure his animals do not cause traffic accidents on public roads. And by admitting liability as "educated wealthly foreigners" are we not corrupting these peolple into a belief that contradicts their own law?

While there is evidence that in Ethiopia there is a reluctance to invest in long-term land improvement measures due to land ownership policies, it is "possible" to fence it.

The daily budget of a tourist is IMO irrelevant in deciding liability of any traffic accident. However, having a certain amount of compassion in the farmers loss is obviously important. I just don't feel it should end with the farmer OR the driver making a profit.....

I had a very interesting experience in a town called Gondor, North Ethiopia where I will try to illustrate my point:
We arrived in the town and after a brief search settled on a nice streetfront hotel, checked in and stayed the night. The following evening after a bit of sightseeing etc. we met 4 other travellers in the hotel and had a great booze-up in the bar. The keys to our room were on our table. At the end of the evening the keys were missing. We went to reception to ask for a spare but were informed there was none. Hmmmm.. Asked for the manager etc she said there was no spare either and that we would have to rent another room and pay for a locksmith to change the lock the following day. Hmmmm. On the top of this the room she showed us (identical in size and layout) was twice the price. Ouch they had us - we reckoned they had lifted the key and were trying on a great swindle (and might even loot the room during the night). We had 2 choices: A. Break the door down to get in and get "done" for a lot more, or B. pay up. Well we chose C. I had a battery drill and carried up an extra battery and drilled the lock out there and then went to bed. Next moring, went to the market and bought new lock barrel for $2 and fitted it. Before moving out I threw the spare keys away and gave them one. Justice.

Cheap
 

Yo Richard,

Classic story about the hotel in Gondor. Was it the Circle Hotel? I was there a couple of months back and they were a bit dodgy in the pricing and room availability.

Like you, I am loath to get ripped off and hate setting bad precedents for future riders. I like to think that most times I try to act pretty reasonably even when the situation may require a bit of unreasonable action, only because I try to think about the next rider coming along and would hate to have burned any bridges for them. Must be my age or something, but I do tend to think of all of us ambassadors of all motorcyclists as well as of our own country.

I think that we must have left Ethiopia with different impressions. Legally, you could be correct, with enough time and money you might be able to prove that it wasn't your fault and get away without paying much, if anything. Realistically, I believe that this effort would be too much for most of us to put up with and the laws of locals vs. foreigners and of frontier justice would rule the day. Don't get me wrong, I'm the type of person who has refused to pay the 4 birr (45 cents) for a couple of bananas in Gondor because I know that the locals price for a whole kilo is 4 birr. But when the crowd gathers around me with their wooden clubs or machetes or AK47s, I would negotiate with the best of them, feign ignorance, pretend not to understand them and put up enough of a fuss to figure out how serious they were and where the real rate stood. Eventually, you would get a good sense for risk, and more likely than not, because they have much, much more time and patience than the majority of us foreigners, pay an amount I could live with. I don't know if it would be less than the $250 he mentioned, but I would like to hope so, impossible to say though without knowing them and the situation.

On the topic of Irishmen, I met a fellow from Ireland on the same trip who had ridden to Syria from South East Asia. He was clearly insane enough to like motorcycling across continents, which made him a friend of mine, loved beer, which made him an excellent travelling companion and with 48 hours notice almost changed his plans to ride the length of Africa instead of heading back across Europe. Carzy Irishmen are always welcome along for the ride, now I just know to wait for them in the next pub while they negotiate for the price of the livestock that they just hit:)

Yup.

I have to confess that I found spending hours negotiating with Africans is what made that trip. I like to think that when it comes to a game of patience I can win hands down and get as close to the local price. As long as it is a game.. I know this isn't everyone's pastime but I felt it's only when you take the time to do this you gain the respect of the locals and it was fun .
Funny story not far from Gondor - we had to pull over because the engine was over heating and as you know we were soon surrounded by kids demanding money. We said "No you give us money" and they did. Obviously, we gave it back but we were suprised how they actually weren't really looking for money - more that it was the only way they knew of introduing themselves.

Posh Spice in Ethiopia?
 

Richard Q, great post. My sentiments entirely.

When in Rome.

Is it really true though that all you Mcs are the most charitable?

Hey Mountain man
 

Hey Mountain man, (Tom)
how you doing
It's Kevin here the Irishman from Syria, Where you at?

I was in Pakistan a while back, driving on a mountain road escorting a truck which I'd hired. As we went round a corner a minibus screamed past us the other way, just missing my car. Then we heard the crunch as it hit the Bedford truck behind us. Not much damage, but total hysteria from all the minibus passengers.

So, lots of arguing, the truck driver in tears and huddled in his cab, crowds of people shouting, the minibus driver screaming about the injuries he hadn't sustained... Then the police arrived. I thought we'd have a bit of sense at this point... I explained that the minibus had been going far too fast and had only just avoided hitting us, and that the driver was obviously not only to blame for crashing into the truck, but also a danger to any other road users (and his passengers) in future. The sergeant of the patrol explained to me very seriously "sir, in this country we do not consider the speed to be a contributory factor in an accident" - after that we negotiated $50 to pay the minibus driver and got home to bed - sometimes you have to accept you are beaten! - but at least we followed the legal process!

And as for hitting cows - I live in rural Ireland and have a neighbour who lets his cows run free - to teach them not to come onto our garden I run them back down the track with the Land Rover - ramming them with the bull bar to keep them moving along and make the point - they've bent the bull bar but never shown any sign of being discomforted - how you kill a cow with a motorbike is a mystery to me - unless you drop it on them from a very great height!

Above you are forgetting the price to slaughter and transport the cow.


When I was taking Spanish lessons in Ecuador I told my hippy Spanish teacher about how my Australian friend ran into a cow. She said "well did he pay for it?¨

I had to restrain myself. A cow could so easily kill a motorcyclist and the idea of rewarding a farmer for being lazy is crazy. I know many of the farmers do not have a lot of money, but there is no excuse for not staking each cow if you do not have the money to maintain your fences.

BTW: It is different if it truly was an accident. ie. the fence suddenly broke in one place.

Most "farmers" in Ethiopia don't own any land so where should they put their fences?

--------------------
'And as for hitting cows - I live in rural Ireland and have a neighbour who lets his cows run free - to teach them not to come onto our garden I run them back down the track with the Land Rover - ramming them with the bull bar to keep them moving along and make the point - they've bent the bull bar but never shown any sign of being discomforted - how you kill a cow with a motorbike is a mystery to me - unless you drop it on them from a very great height![/QUOTE]"-----------------------


BTW - you won't teach a cow a damn thing by chasing it with your Landy . But the cows might teach you to put a gate on your driveway and shut it occasionally .I sympathise with you because it's hard to deal with awkward neighbours who don't give a toss.

In the UK the law was that you fenced to keep your stock in .
In Canada you make fences to keep other's cows out.
You really have to check on the local laws , in Swaziland ,for instance ,it's illegal to allow cattle to wander on the highway , during an outbreak of foot and mouth disease a farmer friend of mine was contracted by the police to shoot stray cattle . After a couple of days the negligent owners smartened up and kept them in .

Here in the US state of Arizona, it is "open range" in which a rancher can let their cattle run free, and it is up to property owners to keep them off their property. It used to be that ranchers were responsible to keep their cattle off the roads, however, and were liable. Just recently, I think a ruling was made in a case that actually turned this completely around, and makes drivers repsonsible not to hit cattle!!??

I guess Arizona has resorted to Ethiopean law regarding cattle!!

Originally Posted by gatogato http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...s/viewpost.gif
I know many of the farmers do not have a lot of money, but there is no excuse for not staking each cow if you do not have the money to maintain your fences.


Do you mean 'STEAKING'? I'll 'butcher it for you!!!:thumbup1:

This is hilarious. Are we really so limited in our ability to imagine other ways of life that we need the entire world to operate just as we do? The number of places in the world where livestock (chickens, goats, pigs, cattle, etc.) and/or pets run free greatly outnumbers the number of places where they are reliably fenced, staked or otherwise restrained. This includes my own country (USA) as much as it does Africa, Asia or South America. Suppose we begin by assuming that this is true because in some way it makes more sense to let animals run free, rather than assuming that whatever we're used to must be the right way ("There's no excuse....")?

Not only do fences cost money and assume certain (very Western) concepts of land ownership and tenancy, but they interfere with animals' ability to forage efficiently and less destructively. And while staking a single horse or donkey might be practical, the idea of staking a whole herd—or a bunch of goats, chickens or pigs—is just silly. People let these animals range freely because in this way they feed themselves, without Western-style massive inputs of feed and supplements. This is what works.

What's more, local customs dictate who is responsible and what should be done in cases where motorists damage property, either living (e.g., cows) or not (e.g., other vehicles). Quoting traffic laws is all well and good, but the legal systems to which posters are referring are imposed from the outside, and often have absolutely no applicability on the ground. Everyone but the clueless tourist knows this. Do we really want to offer convincing demonstration of our own cluelessness by railing about how this ought not to be true, or at least ought not to apply to us? Why travel, then?

Trying to forestall the obvious, I'll also say that of course I'm not in favor of tourists coming to these places and distorting local customs, laws or cash economies by serving as easy sources of absurd amounts of money. The point is that we're supposed to volunteer to play by the same rules as the people whose home turf we're visiting. More often than not, that means negotiating to pay appropriate damages if and when we transgress established local customs.

It also means that, whether we like it or not, we are often supposed to pay more than we would if we were genuinely poor, just as a wealthy Ethiopian would in the same situation. This is the way that life works, and all the self-righteous bluster I can muster doesn't change this; it merely makes me look foolish and offensive to the locals....who, being rather better behaved than me, are probably reluctant to embarrass me by pointing this out.

enjoy,

Mark

Well said Mark. Unfortunately us westerners always think that our values apply in so-called 3rd World countries. Growing up in Africa, I know that it's definitely not the case. As someone said in an earlier post, "When in Rome...."

The implications of cow collision in India are a great deal more serious than a few hundred dollars of wallet lightening. Think: a long long freefall downwards in the reincarnation heirarchy.

Wanna come spend your next life in the Mumbai sewers with me, eh biker boy, eh????

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30...orbike/rat.jpg

response edited and replaced...

Let me rephrase that, depersonalise this.

Compared to Ethiopia's roadside farmers, its poorest producers, we are all brash, bourgeois bastards, an idle elite lucky enough to holiday for years, roam the world on our rich-men's rocking horses, and all able to lay two hundred and fifty bucks on a dead cow. Bend it, mend it. If you break something, you replace it. Kill a man's cow, buy him another. Them's the rules, no? Which is why I'm struggling to understand some of the responses and attitudes on this thread.

Suerte, Dan.

Is this really about the inconvenience of being inconvenienced? :)

Sorry for not quoting you in full Dan... but i think those words stand out

From my first post on this thread i said, "we dont know the facts"
You can ride down a road and five minutes later another traveller
rides the same road and has a different adventure, how he or she
deals with the journey is his/hers choice. I for one can not expect other
travellers to behave the way that i would do, can any of us? when the shit hits
the fan its up to you to do what you think is right.

As for being a tourist, i for myself can honestly say that i never consider meself
a tourist, rather a guest.. ( but thats just me )

I ran over a duck once in Laos going through a village right in front of a bunch of locals. Fortunately killing it instantly. Thought id better stop, cost me 100,000 kip! Stupid duck. They all stood around looking at it like it was their favorite. Seemed pretty happy with the price though.

Maybe it was a bit of a character ... you know ... one of the boys. :innocent:

At least they didn't have you up before the beak.

Ouch! my sides...

Slightly :offtopic: but - A woman brought a very limp duck into a vet. As she laid her pet on the table, the vet pulled out his stethoscope and listened to the bird’s chest. After a moment or two, the vet shook his head sadly and said, “I’m so sorry, your duck has passed away.” The distressed owner wailed, “Are you sure?” “Yes, I’m quite sure. The duck is dead,” he replied. “How can you be so sure,” she protested. “I mean, you haven’t done any testing on him or anything. He might just be in a coma or something.”
The vet rolled his eyes, turned around and left the room and returned a few moments later with a black Labrador retriever. As the duck’s owner looked on in amazement, the dog stood on his hind legs, put his front paws on the examination table and sniffed the duck from top to bottom. He then looked at the vet with sad eyes and shook his head.

The vet patted the dog and took it out, and returned a few moments later with a cat. The cat jumped up on the table and also sniffed delicately at the bird. The cat sat back on its haunches, shook its head, meowed softly and strolled out of the room. The vet looked at the woman and said, “I’m sorry, but as I said, this is most definitely, 100% certifiably, a dead duck.”

Then the vet turned to his computer terminal, hit a few keys and produced a bill which he handed to the woman. The duck’s owner, still in shock, took the bill. “$150!”, she cried - “$150 just to tell me my duck is dead?” The vet shrugged. “I’m sorry.” “If you’d taken my word for it, the bill would have been $20, but with the Lab Report and the Cat Scan, it’s now $150.”

You been hammering the Guinness again???

I like to think that in that situation I would have bartered over the price of the cow and then butchered it, taken what I could eat before it went off and given the rest to the village, or stopped there and then and eaten it with them.
Contrary to popular belief Hindus can eat cows (that have died a natural death). As fate would have made you collide into the cow in the first place you shouldn't be automatically headed for the next life as a rat! You just can't decide to kill a cow, and if you can avoid them you should (ever heard them refered to as 'SMRs' [Sacred Mobile Roundabouts]?)

cow goat
 

Near the town of Bahir Dar (Ethiopia) I bought a goat for $10usd. The folks I was staying with assured me this was a fair price- and that goat was delicious! Did you know?: In Ethiopia, a man who owns 1000 or more goats gets to wear a crown. It's kind of a big deal to own so many goats in these parts. $250usd for a cow- and you didn't mention the age of said cow- seems pretty steep to me. H.

?c?Well it appears to me that we have beaten this dead cow issue about to the end, but thought I should add a farmers perspective. We run a couple of hundred head of cattle in western Washington State, USA. This is not open range and here is how it works if you hit and kill one of my cows. If it can be shown that we have poor fences (legally defined) we pay for the damage to your car or motorcycle and bury the cow. If on the other hand, if vandals cut the fences (has happened) or say a tree fell on the fences and the cows got out, you pay for my cow ($800 to $1500 unless I get greedy and claim it was a prise winning cow).

Everywhere you go is going to have a whole new set of rules/customs and I hate getting scammed as much as the next but paying was the right thing to do if it was normal to have livestock wandering the roads. I think he got by cheap at $250.
:scooter:

Wow, that's a great second post road hog. How much time have you spent outside the USA? Sweet dreams, H.

Death to wandering cows!
 

Down with them all! Look at the trouble these damn cows are causing on this thread. They just don't care......

A small tip from someone familiar with the open range idea as practiced in Yorkshire, Wales and Scotland. In Europe you know you've entered the range because you cross a cattle grid. The biggest and worst danger then is the "mud" on the road. As a sidecarist my biggest problem is washing the corrosive "material" off afterwards, but i've seen bikers brought down by failing to allow for the "stuff" when it's wet. Getting sheep "by product" out of Goretex can't be easy when you are camping and your mates are unlikely to volunteer to help.


Andy

This is a great thread - let the buyer beware
 

The thread should run for a while yet; it is a good reflection of views from around the world.

It takes two to set the price: this seems to be a universal principle and it is even apparent in English contract law.

In the English courts, the farmer is nearly always culpable nowadays, no matter how animals get onto a highway.

To answer Hook's Question on how much I have been outside USA, not near enough, short trips only, Through Canada to Alaska last year, 1500 miles in Mexico (where we had to dodge the livestock), Three weeks in New Zealand (got to help a farmer run his sheep back in), Also been to China, Russia, Finland and Baltic states but not on two wheels.

Perhaps if we all became vegitarians it would put me out of the cow business and I would not need to stay home and feed the cows that are the problem when they wander out in the road. Maybe I could make a RTW run. But would still have the deer, elk, dogs, etc to dodge.

I find the post/threads here most imformative as I am planning to ship a bike to SA and ride for six weeks then store it somewhere returning the next winter (summer there) for some more and if I don't hit a cow (got to stay on topic) get shot, robbed or raped will eventually ride it back up through Mexico and home.
the Road Hog:scooter:

I've been thinking about this old thread while wheeling northward through Spain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, then south again as far as Helsinki......and what keeps coming up for me is.....

Where on the face of this planet do some posters live, work and play where there are not farm animals all over the roadways??? Most recently it's been reindeer, cows and sheep (the reindeer are most troublesome, because they travel in herds, are easily spooked, and tend to come in colors closely matched to rocks and polar mists), but elsewhere it's been goats and chickens, or dogs and cats. Or children and grandmothers.

I just had to get that out of my system.

Safe journeys!

Mark

It's Ethiopia
 

Try telling that to an Ethiopian, in Africa the term road has a very different meaning to what we perceive it to be. It is a meeting place, an artery that binds villages together, it is the life of the town and most importantly villagers perceive vehicles to be the intruders on the road because people and animals existed before automobiles. Simple as that, respect local customs, no matter how whacked out they appear to you :rolleyes2:

your dead right...

A 4 year old thread, I hope the cow is still dead !doh

In situations like this it is probably best to pull your handgun, fire a couple of shots in the air and back away slowly telling all the natives to stay calm

Hahaha i like it!!


The problem with this tread is that we really don't know what happent exactly.
So we are all saying what we "think" we would do, but you can't be
100% sure until it happens.

This is a bit extreme,but even here in Ecuador i hear at least once
a month that local people when caching a thief ,they set him on fire alive!!And they show it on the evening news!
Last month i saw how they made a hole in the wall of a police station and throwed a petrol bomb inside so the 2 thieves came running out with there heads on fire.....very very ugly .

Talk about different culture.
Now somebody who kills a cow is not a thief but big groups,locals and big crowds can easily heat up and give the blame to whoever
they like.

Would i pay?
It all depends on the situation!
Its a miracle that you can drive away after you killed a cow,
those thing are big!!

I probably just do like written above:

pull my handgun, fire a couple of shots in the air and back away slowly telling all the natives to stay calm!!

skinny cows
 

the cows in Ethiopia are quite skinny though... not as fat and big as cows in Europe or those corn fed ones in the USA... skinny cows are easier to mow down... :yes:

FWIW, I came across unfenced and untethered livestock in the road a number of times when I was travelling and I really couldn't understand the 'driver is always at fault' mentality. :thumbdown:

I can only say - if I depended on livestock for MY livelihood, I wouldn't bl00dy well want it wandering around at risk of getting hit doh - I'd want it safely tied up!! :clap:

With respect , it doesn't really matter whether you understand it or not .
What this thread is all about is First World perceptions and Third World realities .
Animals have to wander and graze over sparse vegetation and cannot be tied up , it's been that way for many thousands of years . Low incomes do not allow for expensive fencing either and land owning traditions are not the same as western europe or north america and probably don't permit fencing .
It's already been stated that roads are viewed in a completely different light in traditional areas and are not merely a means to travel .

The cattle aren't the problem - WE ARE as we travel at speed through somebody else's country .
The only answer is to slow down so that the animals are aware of you and can judge your speed , 99% of the time they will try to avoid you .

Cattle can be a huge investment for a small farmer in a third world country and to lose one is a tragedy not only because of the immediate loss but also because of the difficulty of replacement or the length of time for a replacement to grow from a calf . If the animal killed in the accident were incalf [pregnant],then the loss is even more serious .

:thumbup1:

For me, this sums it up very well:
"When you travel, remember that a foreign country is not designed to make you comfortable. It is designed to make its own people comfortable."
Clifton Fadiman in Bike Bits. The internet newsletter of the Adventure Cycling Association. (US)

Live stock!!
 

Mark,
Come to Oz and ride at dusk or dawn and you'll find some BIG hoppers that just LOVE to jump in front of cars, trucks, bikes and any other form of transport.:eek3: A real eye opener.
Even so, it is Driver beware down here, when a 300 pound Roo jumps in your way, good luck. Oh, and they HOP along at around 45mph.
Chucky

Old thread maybe, but I just watched David Baddiel and Hugh Dennis on TV driving through Ethiopia. The person who hired them a 4x4 in Addis Ababa said if they hit a goat and kill it the price (of the goat) goes up, it will cost them £50-60, but they can eat it. Later on, talking to some lorry drivers they came across at the side of the road, one driver said the only accidents he's had were sheep which cost him 600 birr (£24).

:)

Oh I dunno, if you got $250 for each cow hit by a passing tourist I think you'd want them all to wander about as much as possible ;)

Eeere! With a name like Sennen I suspect you be a Cornishman just like oi be!! 'Ow ee doin of?

Slightly OT as it's involving a train and not a car, but here's what another well-known Cornishman suggested as a 'waste-not-want-not' option if you've ended up causing roadkill - BBC News - Aboard the Victoria Falls Express

Or this one - also from a Cornishman I am afraid - BBC NEWS | UK | England | Cornwall | Roadkill fan penning recipe book

+1, not only very interesting, but a very realistic and respectful approach.:thumbup1:

In anthropology that's called "ethnocentrism": judging another culture solely by the values and standards of one's own culture. It's an interesting thing, because we all suffer it at some extent and it requires great consciousness and abstraction to be able to get rid of it (and time). For a French, eating dogs will be immoral ("dogs are cute, men's best friend") and spiders disgusting, but eating horses and "scargots" (=snails) is acceptable for them; for us Spaniards eating horses looks horrible while killing bulls (and others) has been more than acceptable and tasting snails a delight.

So killing cows in Ethiopia may be solely your fault, since bicycles and pedestrians cannot drive them over and you are the strange actor on the road (a possible explanation, I don't know at all).

Whether it is expensive or not or how much one would pay (or not), it's only possible to say it once you are there. Today with the sheppherd alone 100USD may be ok, but with a big group around getting nervous 250USD may be the minimum to keep things calm, who knows. If things go right and you are socially skillful enough (time to smile a lot!), you may still invite everyone to a great BBQ and party that night, have a great time and turn a horrible event into an unforgettable (although still expensive) memory of your trip in Africa. You may even change your vynil seat cover for a genuine leather one or get a new "horn" for your bike!

Esteban

ooo arrr, there be wonce a toime when Oi could ever be found at Sennen Cove nursing an oice cream...even in winturrr :eek3:

Beats trying to find a supermarket...

My cousin who lives in Pakistan hit a milking cow while travelling from Lahore to Islamabad. The villagers gathered, tried to hit him with batons, blocked the traffic and demanded compensation. A milking cow is like a Manhattan asset in Pakistan.

This is always the way you should try to handle such a situation! Make the best out of it.

I dont mean that you had to pay every bill - but to think in a "i have my rights" way - when the mob gets angry - is not a good idea too...

Try to resolve something like this - bevore many people join the discussion. In the first minutes you may be able to direct the next hours a lot.

I would imagine in most developing countries, if you hit free-range livestock with your vehicle you're liable for the value. To many subsistence farmers, the cost of a steer or cow might be equivalent to several months' wages.