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Documents and police corruption
Just wondering how this works in more detail. When pulled over by police, the rule seems to be immediately play dumb, smile and wait it out. People have mentioned never handing over real paperwork, only copies. And that the only time you should hand over real paperwork is at borders because you HAVE to.
Is it illegal to refuse to hand over your real documents to cops? If a cop asks to see a foreigner's passport or driving licence, etc and the foreigner hands the cops a crumpled sheet of A4 paper instead? Does all this stuff only apply to countries considered 2nd/3rd world? If you were pulled over in Italy or something (1st world country), do you still play dumb and give them copies? |
The police in every country have the right to see all of your documents to confirm that both you and your vehicle are legal in their country and if it comes to it have the right to see the originals.
Having said that I usually carry scanned and nicely printed copies of everything I can and if asked show these in the first instance, I also only show my international driving permit rather than the original driving licence which they often prefer as it is in multiple languages. I have rarely been pulled over by a police officer who does not speak at least a little English so playing dumb will probably not work but after greeting them and if it seems appropriate shaking their hand or asking how they are let them ask the questions and don't offer any documents or information that you have not been asked for, do not lie. Crumpled sheets of A4 stand a good chance of getting you into trouble and find out local rules and regulations and stick to them, it won't stop you being pulled over now and again but it will reduce it to a minimum. |
1) Be diplomatic
2) Be friendly 3) Be patient - willing to spend as long as necessary in conversation. People in general react well to these. In my experience mark manley's advice is good. Use IDP first and produce your licence only if asked; good clean copies are a start however I've never had any problem with showing originals. The police have every right to ask to see your documents and verify that you're legal. In many years of driving in much of the planet, I have only three times experienced incidents in which it was possible (probable) that a police check was hoping for a contribution (without any overt request), and in both occasions my willingness to do whatever the law required and my patience and tact resulted in my being permitted to drive away without any contribution being made. These were in Venezuela (5 minute chat), Colombia (45 minutes), and Paraguay (2 hours). Two exceptions: 1) Northern Bolivia - police and other officials routinely, and overtly, request contributions, HOWEVER you don't have any problem if you refuse, politely. 2) Western Tanzania - a police patrol asked us if we could give them some fuel, since they were running out . We gave them some fuel, and consider this the same as if they had been any other traveller. On a couple of occasions, both in Tanzania, we've been accused of infractions which we had not committed. Tactful righteous indignation worked and we continued on our way. |
Can't say I've been stopped by corrupt police much, but seems that Africa is a possible place for that happening.
And an excellent bit of advice for Africa, don't remember where it came from, was, when riding in a place where a police stop is a possibility, be prepared to let go (safely) of front brake and remove glove quickly, and offer right hand with "Hello how are you?" or something similar. And it always worked. I was asked for "documents" only once in Africa and that was in S. Africa. The International Driving Permit was sufficient to be waved on. I try to remember an old saying - someone told me it's Native American - "if you go out looking for friends, you'll find no enemies. If you go out looking for enemies, you'll find no friends." Doesn't always come to mind when you're stopped by the police, but worth it if it does. |
"if you go out looking for friends, you'll find no enemies. If you go out looking for enemies, you'll find no friends."
Agree completely. |
I carry good color copies of all my documents and a color doublesided laminated copy of my Drivers License. Not because I want to hand them to the police when I need to, but in case I should lose the original, I will at least have something to show. (I also have pics of all documents on my phone, and in the Cloud.)
The strategy of playing dumb (not too dumb, more like language barrier), and being patient and stating the truth has always worked for me. It goes without saying, I hope, that if you're guilty of what they are saying: speeding, wrong way down a one way street, importing cash, using the black market, etc- you own up to it, show respect and pay your fine, as you would in your home country. At least, that's what I do. .........shu |
It needs just patience - as long you didnt have done something wrong. Be honest, arque or not, after at least 20 mins - they will send you away.
Special in Africa: If they dont wear an uniform - ask after their documents. No documents, no control. This shouldnt be tryed at a border, where they often also dindnt wear a uniform. I never had to leave documents back. If they catch documents, then it is your passport - till you have paid the fine and can show the banking receipt (or bribe - what you never should do). You can opt for an 2nd passport - but they cost more than the most fines... 2nd Passport isnt hard to get - when you have the right argumentation: https://www.4x4tripping.com/2013/04/...h-pass_15.html Surfy |
documents and police corruption
A few years ago ,i was stopped in Morocco for speeding !
Went into the police car ,and acted very sorry ! But as he was giving me a ticket spilled his coffee all over my insurance cert ! Nice man ................. let me off ! Just be warned about Police in Moroc , there are very very hot now !! :scooter::ban::oops2: |
I also received a speeding ticket in Morocco 2 years ago.
The police were very professional, and very polite. The location they set up at was what you could call a "speed trap" - a short-distance reduction in speed along a major highway due to a wee curve in the road - and they didn't have to wait for customers. But, the whole process was quite pleasant & friendly, and the policeman gave me full documentation of the ticket, and a receipt for the fine (wasn't very much). At the end of the whole process, I apologized for speeding, and the policeman said "Not to worry, you have paid your fine, all is forgiven, continue on and enjoy your time in Morocco", which I thought was very considerate. I have always been favourably impressed with the courtesy & professionalism of the police in Morocco. Michael |
Being stopped for speeding is one strategy, being stopped for document check is another. Document check happens often in many Latin American countries; I always am cooperative & friendly, speak the language if I can, and provide the docs (title, driver license, sometimes insurance). Speeding, no experience (yet) other than in my home country.
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Hi all
I got stopped for speeding in West Africa, Ghana I think. I didn't see the sign, maybe there wasn't one, but I offered him a Barry White tape I found in the car and he was happy with that. Good deal I thought as not a BW fan. Cheers. Bruce |
This is why I never leave home without at least one Barry White tape in my emergency kit. FWIW, convincing copies work as well as the genuine article.
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Shaking Hands
The shaking hands thing cannot be understated. Though not MC related, I worked for the UN and shaking everyones hands diffused so many situations.
It also worked the other way. If someone refuses to shake your hand, generally, you know exactly where you stand ...... they aint gunna be your friend. :no: |
Copy of Documents
Hi, for years I have been reading about people presenting copies of their papers at police checks. To be honest I find this hard to believe - you were stopped and asked for your documents, the copy can so easily be a forgery, rather than tampering with an original, which is often very difficult to do well.
Even if the official is only intending to extort a small contribution he is going to laugh in your face when you present a potential forgery, and now he has a legitimate reason to detain you, and the price goes up, to say the least. I am very "old school" when it comes to dealing with the law, they can send you on your way with a "Manchester United" and a thumbs up, or they can really mess up your life if things escalate. Desmond Morris in the "Naked Ape" has some advice for dealing with police, customs, immigration etc, which is to be friendly, assume a non-threatening posture, remove your helmet, not argue aggressively, be patient and helpful. Other cheap tricks are to praise their grasp of english, their beautiful country with friendly citizens and famous cuisine, make negative comments about the neighboring country - "they are all thieves in xxxx", which is probably true anyway! Wise to have copies in case the originals are lost or destroyed. Also copies might be accepted when you have shown the originals, after an accident for example. Lastly, when you stop, be swift and remove your keys and pocket them. Dishonest cops are just as likely to seize your keys rather than your documents. I have heard of this in both Belgia and India! Stay Strong Peter, in Oslo |
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When pulled over by any authority for whatever reason - real or imagined - ensure that by the time they're parked and have walked-up to you that your helmet and gloves are off and that you have a map out and opened on top of the tank-bag. Immediately and effusively thank them for stopping to help (don't allow them even a moment to think about or mention the speed-limit or red-light) and quickly go on to explain where on the map you think you might be and where it is that you're trying to get to; if - as is likely - you're on the correct and obvious route, describe some imaginary restaurant/cafe, tourist site/viewpoint that you've been told to stop at and are looking for the turn off too. This will soon lead on to your getting their recommendations and advice with regard to route, food-stops and things worth seeing along the way and ultimately a friendly wave as you ride away. On a few occasions as we've departed, I've seen from the expression on the Officer's face, the dawning realisation that rather than we stopping him, it'd been he who had stopped us, though even those let us continue without a re-stop. |
Police check-points are common in Colombia, Ecuador, Perú, and Venezuela. We've never had a problem and found that the Peruvian police are excellent travel advisors - once the ice is broken they always told us the best restaurants, bars, and sights to visit.
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I think having a good attitude is probably the best advice.
Playing dumb and pretending not to understand their language is also really good advice. The less you understand, the harder it is for them to get angry with you in my experience. When you start speaking to them in broken Spanish and they know that you understand, then the more angry they will become. Some of this advice is country specific. For example, in Latin American countries I see no problem with showing them good color copies of your documents. If they ask to see your original passport then you can show them that. If they ask for originals of your title and registration just be confident and tell them that those copies are the originals. How can he be familiar with the exact titles and registrations of 50 different states? If you are in China or Saudi Arabia then I would just stick to showing the original documents. The more traveling that you do, the better spidey sense you get about how corrupt the police officer is. One thing I have learned is that corrupt police officers are often lazy. For example, they will be at the side of the road off their bike and finishing with a car they just pulled over. He will see you all of a sudden, realize you are a foreigner, and gesture for you to pull over. I have learned to just wave at these guys and ride off. So far I have never had one jump on his bike and try to chase me down. I think their thought process is, oh, I will just wait for an easier tourist to get. If you have ever watched the discovery channel you will notice how the lion goes after the weakest animal in the herd. These corrupt officers are the same. They will look for a shiny bmw motorcycle, someone traveling alone, a younger person, new riding gear, red hair, etc, etc A bad situation I had to deal with was a police checkpoint on a remote highway in Argentina. I had just removed the duck tape that had been covering my F650 the whole trip so it was all shiny and nice looking. For this checkpoint you had to come to a complete stop. I came to a stop and the guy waved me over to pull over. He asked me where the fire extinguisher was on my bike and told me it was a requirement to have on your motorcycle in Argentina. He made me go into the police shack with him, took my passport, and then told me the fine was $400 US in cash and that I could call my parents if I didn't have the money. After 2-3 hours of threatening to imprison me if I didn't pay. I finally just held my hands up like he could put the cuffs on and arrest me if he wanted to. At that point he had, had enough of me, gave me my passport back and told me to get out of there. I went back to my bike, geared up, noted the license plate of the police car in the garage and wrote it down on my hand. I guess my buddy had been closely monitoring my actions from 50 ft away and he ran out and made me go back in the building with him. He made me go to the bathroom and wash the writing off my hand and then closed the door of the bathroom, took his gun out and pointed it at my head and threatened me. I pretended to be really scared and then got out of there in a hurry. I met some Brazilian friends who had a pretty good strategy for dealing with police officers. They were journalists and told me that whenever they got pulled over they would jump off their bike pretty quick, get their cameras out and start taking pictures of the officer and the bikes. The officer would come up and ask them what they were doing and they would tell them that they were writing an article for one of Brazil's largest papers about traveling in the country they were in. Then they would ask the police officer if he wanted to be featured in one of their articles. They said each time the police officer would politely refuse, give them a warning, and send them on their way. Social media has probably helped to cut down on some of the police corruption in recent years. btw: Another good note, if you are traveling in a group talk to everyone ahead of time about how if the police do try to pull you over, that only one in the group will pull over while the rest wait 5 miles down the road. It is better for one guy to take the hit and have to pay a possible bribe than 5 guys get extorted one by one. |
Best advice I can give u is dont kiss arxe and dont be an arxe . If someone had started filming me on a traffic stop then the ticket book wouldve definitely come out . Certain offences will get a nicking no matter what u do , eg drink/drug driving , no insurance and bad driving .Speeding would depend on the situation and conditions . I can only speak for the UK and have long since retired but a good attitude generally helps but not always and producing photocopied documents would Not be a good idea as personally I would now be thinking Crime as opposed to traffic matters :thumbdown:
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Lucky
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Take care, be safe. |
I think the big difference is cops in the UK and many other countries aren't looking for a bribe, in fact would react very negatively to being offered one. For those guys they are genuinely looking at traffic law violations and humility is the best course of action to try and avoid a ticket. However there are countries where bribery is not only possible but probable, and it's those where a strategy is worth having - they're playing a game, and if you know their rules you can beat them at it.
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Exactly. Our experiences with law enforcement in Europe or North America don't necessarily apply elsewhere. In fact, the experiences of the ex-law enforcement folks above don't even apply across the board in our own countries--for example, I've personally witnessed bribes delivered to police in the US, and in some situations they're the norm.
Aside from all that, in a lot of countries the normal course of events is to use money, power or influence in all interactions with government officials, uniformed or otherwise. This is no mystery, and we've all seen it in various parts of the world. That "letter of recommendation" can be essential, as can payment of bogus "fees" or "taxes." Sometimes matters are going nowhere productive until the mention of one's friendship with a superior--real or imagined--or the presentation of their card, letter, phone number or even just their name. Particularly in rigid authoritarian hierarchies, everyone is justifiably afraid of offending anyone who outranks them, and they'd rather move on to the next victim. On the other hand, I have no experience with filming encounters myself, so I'm not sure how this works to make things better or worse. And sometimes to appropriate goal is not "beating them at their own game," but rather "losing less badly." |
The copies thing seems old advice to me. Back when the Moroccan Fuzz thought copying was a carbon sooted lino type on crinkly paper, shoulder pads were in fashion and Soviet made camera was a fast introduction to US customs officials, a laminated laser print probably passed. Now every man and his dog is permanently indebted to HP or Canon for RF chipped cartridges it won't fly.
Almost worth showing them a phone picture and saying your government went paperless. Andy |
Having said all that, my personal policy is not to give bribes except in truly dire situations. Even then, normal practice is to bargain hard, although with a lot of smiles, compliments, and praise. Demands for large sums of money are often satisfied by offers of bits of food, used batteries, or (in the case of my former self) cigarettes. Mostly, the demands eventually evaporate with patience, inquiries about their families, and exaggerated ignorance of language or customs.
Surprisingly often, the key is offering business cards with demands that they visit in your home country--no one has yet actually done this, although I had a brief scare related to an officer in the Malian army who turned out to be highly-placed and scheduled for anti-insurgency training in, I believe, North Carolina. |
The expression we used to use was when someone had u by the balls please dont squeeze too tightly :( Which I guess could cover alot of lifes transactions.......
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Cant say I would advise my approach to dealing with the law but after a very hot frustrating day in the Punjab and fixing 2 punctures and a broken foot rest I was stopped by 2 rural cops on a scooter.
They started with a very nasty attitude and taking the piss out of the way I look, (long haired old hippy style) and wanted to go through my luggage. So I studied these two guys with their smart uniforms and fine coiffures, no guns and no radio. Figured they would never catch me on their scoot so I just took of at high speed. Not the best reaction but hey! I was having a bad day |
I got half way thru your post and thought u were going to deck them both........:oops2:
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