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Tubeless conversion?
Some riders go their entire lives without a puncture. Others have been able to rely on getting their bikes towed, and never ever having had to deal with mending a flat out in the elements. Some have allways resorted to professionals getting the tires ooff and on the rims. Some have been able to rely on tubeless tires that can be easily plugged road side, without ever having had the need for an innertube or having to remove the tire road side. Some don't fit into any of these categories, seeing a tube as an absolute necessity - including me.
On tarmac, the punctures are usually caused by sharp pointy objects like nails and screws. With tubeless, the time the air takes to escape is often so slow that you can limp to civilization - maybe with the occational top-up on air. And one can usually allways get hold of a truck to put the bike on. Also, the punctures are usually easily plugged road side - with the rider being back on the road in 15-30 minutes. In the sticks, flats are often caused by dented rims or tire walls or knobs getting tears - leaks that cannot easily be repaired. Also, in some of these places there is either no cell phone coverage, or a possibility for even a 4X4 pickup truck to get access to you (i.e. on a single track). Getting a flat in such instances and riding tubeless, and without a spare tube in the luggage - your day will turn really bad. I have been on a couple of trips where between a group of 2-3 riders, flats occured allmost daily. In all truthfulness, these were not true adventure bikes (small spokeless wheels). They also had a split rim design (two halves bolted together) where changing an innertube was a peach. On my adventure bikes I have been so fortunate that I have never had to deal with a flat in the sticks. If I had to, I would have been prepped with extra tubes, patches, pumps (electric plus manual), proper tools, and the practice (no access to youtube in the sticks). The last puncture I had on a large adventure bike was on tarmac. 12 hours into the ride, on the German Autobahn, doing 140 km/h in the dark - completely knackered, completely decensitised, and with a careless attitude - riding a tupe setup on rims meant for tubes, I started loosing air on my front wheel real quick as the air leaked out through the spokes. Had the puncture been even a fraction bigger, it could have gotten ugly real fast. Too knackered to repair it there and then, I opted to take it slow and pump up frequently - and limp on the last few kilometers. Becuase I was so close to my destination where I would take a ferry back home in the morning, where I also could continue limping back to my garage, I found that to be a great idea. It was stupid - and I conscider myself lucky for not getting into an accident - but this is what can happen from rider fatigue combined with time pressure. If I had been running tubelsss, I would have plugged it. I have never had a tubeless set-up on a large adventure bike, but I see the appeal of being able to plug a simple puncture and be on my way. In addition, carrying a spare tube(s) for the adventures that takes me into the sticks - on the off chance that plugs won't cut it. I have no experience with tubeless wheels excpet for crotch rockets that I have owned (never had a puncture on those). Running tubeless on tubeless rims, and carrying spare tubes on the bike - is it the best of two worlds? Are there any cons? Anyhow, I see that some people convert existing tube rims to tubeless, by sealing the spokes. They do this even on rims that don't have the hump to prevent the seal to come off the rim, which true tubeless rims all have. There are many tales of great successes with this conversion: But, there also some not so good stories inbetween - the ones that after a whie start experiencing leaks from the spokes, etc. This makes me sceptical to how samrt it really is to carry out such a conversion in place of buying true tubeless rims. It makes me think that this is a hackjob that is unreliable and possibly even dangerous - especially conscidering that the wheels lack the hump that true tubelss rims have - the one that holds the bead in place. Even though I sense that tubeless conversion may be a hack job, my experience on the Autobahn in germany still makes me conscider doing it anyway - and not for riding tubeless. I would still be riding with a tube at all times on such a conversion set up. The purpose would be to reduce the time it takes for air to escape in the event of a flat. If you get a puncture on a tube on a standard non-tubeless rim, the air escapes quickly. This can possibly lead to a dangerous situation. I am thinking that by doing the tubeless conversion on my existing rims, I could not only reduce the risk of an accident occuring from quick loss of air, but I could in many cases buy myself enough time to limp to a location where dealing with the flat would be far less cumbersome. If I also add *TPMS I would have monster insurance (see below if you don't know what TPMS is). Ideally I am thinking I should swap out my wheels for true tubeless rims and ride tubeless with spare tube(s) in my luggage - but the prices I have come accross are prohibitively expensive. If someone knows of good alternatives to a Tenere 700 that does not break the bank - please let me know. Are the prices of Rally Raid typical? Like I said - I have little knowledge on tubeless rims. Are there any cons of having them and carrying a spare tube, vs running a standard non-tubelss rim and tube (no conversion)? Do any of you that have tubeless rims still opt for having tubes in a perfectly airtight tubeless tire when riding in the sticks, i.e. as a second layer of defence (from dented rims, ripped tires or torn off knobs)? When riding with a tube in a tubeless, and having a puncture, will it work pretty much like a tubeless? Can you simply plug the tire, inflate and carry on, or will the tube need to come out? Are there for instance any consciderations in relation to the valve on a tubelss tire vs the valve on a tube? Please enlighten and advice me. What are your thoughts? ------------- *TPMS: To those that do not know, TPMS(TirePressureMonitoringSystem) is a sensor that you can add to the inside of your wheels or screw on as a valve cap on the outside (done in seconds). On the handlebar you have a small display (bike powered or rechargeable) that shows you the air pressure and alerts you to any changes - some can pair with phones. It is reccommended that you check air pressure between every ride, and if on long days in the sticks (where there is a high probability of a flat) - to check more tahn once, when the tires are cold. But who does that? Who allows for wheels to cool, rummage through their luggage for their gauge, get down into the dirt to turn dirty wheels to line up for fiddling measurements, etc - that often? At home I can go weeks without taking measurements, because I just can't be bothered. I have also learnbed that eyeballing it, squeezing the tire with my foot or hand - doesn't even come close to ballpark in telling me if I am OK With TPMS the information would allways be there - letting you know how temperature changes and altitude changes has affected your pressure, or if you are having a leak. |
YES PUNTURES ! a motorcyclist nightmare !
I allways use ultraseal in my tyres, and carry a spare tube + electric pump +hand pump + a good luck charm !! Tubeless are easy to fix . but one time i had a large nail in sidewall , so i put a new tube in ! Just miss any sharp objects on the road !! :oops2: |
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Another question which just appears to me in this case is: What about the friction between plug (looking inside to the tyre) and the tube? Will this to become a safety issue in shortime? Very intersting subject I didn`t think about up to now. |
I'm no expert on this stuff and some of the questions you've asked are ones that I'd like to know the answers to myself. I've listened to what various experts have said at e.g. seminars, lectures etc though and boiled down it seems to be mixed messages. It's the old ask ten experts and get fifteen opinions joke.
What I will chuck into the mix is my experience with punctures. Most of my bikes have - and have had in the past - spoked wheels. So tyres with tubes in them. And as far back as I can remember I've been getting punctures. The picture below was taken in 1971 (!) and we've just spent the night under a motorway bridge in Belgium because I got a puncture. That's me in the background trying to sort it out the next morning. https://i.postimg.cc/cJj6fmpQ/1971-6X.jpg That incident taught me a lesson because the (rear, fortunately) tyre went suddenly with a loud bang just as we were pulling in from overtaking a truck and we were lucky not to find ourselves scattered all over the carriageway. The lesson - don't mess with your tyres / tubes. That's why I read what's been said about sealing spokes with bathroom sealant or rubber bands or whatever other methods people have tried but, until the technology 'matures' anyway, it won't be for me. My faith is in what I admit is a sub optimal technology (tyres with tubes) but keeping it all in as good a condition and as close to what the original designers intended as I can. If the wheel is designed to take a tubeless tyre (as a couple of my bikes are) then, fine, I'll embrace that, but I'm not picking and mixing - and that includes putting a tube in a tubeless set up. I've asked several experts - tyre company technicians - over the years about using tubes when the tyre is intended for tubeless use and received different opinions. Some say don't do it - the structural ridges inside tubeless tyres abrade the tubes and can lead to a blow out, whereas others have said no problem. So what am I supposed to think if even the experts disagree. One thing I will say about the traditional tyre + tube + spoked wheel approach is that fixing a puncture at the side of the road isn't as easy as it's made out to be if your tyre is much bigger than, say, a 120 section. I'm sure one or two people here will disagree (Grant ... ) and I've been privileged to watch somebody here do it for real in about 30 mins under an autobahn bridge in the rain in the middle of winter (picture if i can find it (below)) but they belong more in superhero movies than the real world. If you happen to have an unfortunate combination of awkward rim and wide ultra stiff tyre (Excel rim and Michelin Desert comes to mind) you can pretty much forget fixing a flat without help. Even with simpler combinations it's not enough to have studied the process or done it once or twice in your garage. It's a craft skill and needs repetition to keep your abilities sharp. So either get loads of punctures or get none. Now and again is the worst of all worlds. https://i.postimg.cc/V63H3dhx/ER-puncture.jpg |
@Rapax: In the case of plugging a tire with a hose inside, I would not be concerned about destroing the tube with the reamer. The point here would be to ride with tubes, for instance on a tubeless rim conversion - in the event that the rim started leaking, and have the option to do a quick plugging of the tire - and replace the innertube and deal with the plug bit on the inside, both at a more convenient time/location.
@Backofbeyond: When it comes to maturing technology, there are several companies that now sell kits for converting spoked rims to tubeless. Outex being one that offers kits for a wide range of manufacturers' models. On the Tenere 700 for instance, the rear rim has a hump in it, which would suit tubeless wheels well. The fron does not - yet a lot of T7 owners go ahead with the conversion anyways, reporting no issues in air pressure drop. Others on the other hand report utter failures in trying to get the tires air tight. The problem with the reports I have read is that no one really reports back how this stuff works long term. Sure some report it has worked well for them for years, but they fail to mention how much, and how hard, they ride different types of terrain and surfaces. I could see that adjusting the spokes could lead to problems down the road, even if one is told that the kits are made for this. As for the grouves/humps on tubeless tires are a problem - with the T7 having them and running tubes stock - surely we would have lot's of reports on this being an issue? I have never really studied the inside anatomy of a tubeless spoked rim to really say if there are ridges, etc, that would cause frictional problems, or if they could be solved by a similar kit that one would use to convert a non-tubeless rim to tubless. In any case, would simply doing a tubeless coversion be a god idea, even if one never intended to ride tubeless - simply to prevent fast leakages and to have the option to plug and continue (dealing with the tube later)? Not sure at all - but it is an interesting idea I wonder if anyone has tried - or have any opinions on. I have never really struggled to get a tire on and off and dealing with the bead and so forth. Solo, and as a beginner, using only simple tools in the gravel - on my F650GS Dakar - I never had any of the problems many people say they have. Maybe I have just been lucky with the tire/rim combo? Or maybe the many hours spendt on youtube made all the difference? I have no experience with tubeless though, and I would assume that getting the bead to sit well enough to be able to pump it up with a simple pump would be the most difficult part. Here I have seen several tricks - ranging from tightening a strap along the middle circumfrance of the tire (twisting it tight with a screwdriver or the likes) - to using a flamable gas/liquid which is lit and cause an instantanious expansion og a large volume og gas. I would advice anyone against going on any sort of ride where one readly can't get hold of transport for a bike with flat tires - without first having practiced on one's own setup until success! Practice would include getting the very same tires completely on and off the very same rim, in the dirt, using only the tools one carries. If you are riding tubeless, you will also have to learn how to plug - i.e. on a worn out tire. The practice would also include replacing and mending a tube of the same thickness that's on the wheels and/or that one carries as a spare - regardless if you ride tubeless or not. On a trip in the sticks, it is my opinion that you should carry atleast one emergency tube. Where you get one flat, there is a high probability that you can get several - and if all you have is a single spare tube on a tube set up, you are screwed if you don't know how to patch. Many people struggle getting patches to stick - in particular on heavy duty tubes. In south africa I rode on a dirt road with a lot of thornes - I got three separate puntures, all within the same day, and all within just a few miles. I wished I had tubeless back then, but was very happy that I knew how to mend a tube. Practice, practice, practice! |
I honestly don't have a problem with alloy wheels.
Tubes are a PITA and I will only tolerate them on a modern bike when the available TT tyres actually give an advantage. On the CB500X I can get TL tyres like K60's that easily exceed the bikes ability. Plugs to fix punctures and rims that retain the tyre instead of blowing out are a huge advantage. On a full on MX bike with 21-inch front you are already compromised but at least get the tyre choice. Bikes that come with spoked wheels for fashion reasons and TL tyres with tubes I will simply not buy. Can't plug it, can't break the bead to change the tube. I won't get into mucking about with bathroom sealant. I sell TPMS. Free advice, avoid external valve mounted. The valve stems are not designed to support the weight and ripping one off will ruin your day. They also tend to be at the cheaper end of the market. If you want Chinese pot metal holding the valve open and containing the air please be ready for the blowout. As these cannot measure temperature they are also less accurate. Legislation will catch up in 2025 or so and internal valve or strap mounted will be standard, so you can bet no one is spending real money on checking and updating these. Andy |
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A quick Google would have me looking at the Careud or Kimmiss ones on Amazon. The sensors are standard automotive parts not leftovers from medical equipment. Personally I don't have one on a bike. On a CV the issues are that there are 14-20 tyres to check and the drivers are universally slack. A blowout where the police close a motorway can wipe out a years profit. We text the transport manager when the temperature rises so the driver can be given clear instructions after they have planned the pre-emptive action. A different scenario from a bike where weight is important and the rider is usually the owner and very much more proactive. Andy |
I hate tubes with a vengeance.
My KTM 690 Enduro is fitted with mousses rather than tubes—I use it for thousands of km per trip with zero problems. And one of the reasons I bought a KTM 790 Adventure rather than the T700 was the tubeless tyres as standard. If I had a choice on a bike between 19/17 tubeless wheels on alloys vs 21/18 tubed wheels on spokes, I would choose the 19/17 combo even though it's not as good off road. Chapter and verse on tubeless conversions from Chris Scott |
Has any one used a second tube . in a tyre to help prevent punctures , i did hear this some time ago. and think it may be a good idea ?
Any ideas ??c??c? |
You mean Tubliss?
https://youtu.be/X6aBLlma0iE A clever idea and I think probably a good one for what it was designed for, bicycles and competition machines. The trouble for travel use is not insignificant IMHO. Tyre choice remains TT which will ruin your day if it blows out or TL which then makes getting at a failed tubliss tube difficult. You need to add spares and tools to deal with a failed tubliss tube. Weight and cost They run hot and are not designed for motorways. Sizes are sensibly limted to what they've tested. If Honda said the market wanted spokes and they offered this solution I'd consider it. It'd be third choice after alloys and spokes run into a flange, but certainly better than TL tyres with a tube. Add the current situation where a small company says "not for road use" and I'll give it a miss. Andy |
I dont think i made it clear in my post
The idea is to use another tube and cut it all the way around. then place it over the normal tube and this would give you twice as much tube area !( a bit like having a heavy duty tube )?c? |
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You CAN use a heavy duty tube, but if you're expecting that to help prevent flats from for instance a nail, no such luck. Heavy duty and ULTRA heavy duty tubes are ONLY of use when running off-road at extremely low tire pressures (3-5 psi for example) to prevent pinch flats - it won't stop a 3 inch / 75mm nail! Sorry :( |
One thing to always remember when running heavier than normal tubes, especially with Slime or similar in them, is that the thicker tubes run significantly hotter than conventional thin tubes, so you have to watch your speed.
I THINK a good rule of thumb in this situation is the same one used for putting a tube in a tubeless tire - knock the speed rating back one or better two/three since we are in doubt. In other words an H rated tubeless tire, rated at max 130mph/210kph, with a tube in it is now rated at U=125mph/200kph or perhaps T=118mph/190kph. Of course that SHOULD not be an issue for anyone on an ADVENTURE bike riding sensibly, but sometimes when you have a ferry to catch... so keep it in mind. Also of course watch the LOAD rating of the tire and knock it back a bit too. |
Hello
All my "heavy duty" tubes had printed on them "not for road use". I wouldn't go faster on then than 100km/h on road. A flat tire is not fun but also not the end of the world. It's just a breakdown like many others that can happen on the trip. I love to reduce the aire pressure when it comes to sandy roads (1.5-1.75 bar) or a river crossing with loose small gravel (0.5 bar, rimlocks). Questions regarding tubeles: How much can you reduce the aire pressure before it makes pffff and all air is gone? How big a bent in the rim can you have before the seal isn't tight anymore? I saw a few bikes, 1200 GS, with a tube in their tubles rims because they hadn't enough air pressure to "blow up" the tire. Both system have pros and cons, I choose the type according to the trip. sushi |
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