Thoughts On The Harley Patch And Pin Culture
 

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My 2016 HOG card came in the mail today along with the 2016 HOG patch and pin. Like all previous patches and pins that I received, these will also be put away in some corner and forgotten. Maybe it’s just me, but I never quite understood the point of walking around with patches and pins stuck to my riding jacket. I mean, I’ll wear a t-shirt that has a Harley-Davidson logo or motorcycle on it. But somehow I could never bring myself to become a walking talking notice board of all my riding achievements. This patch and pin stuff is one aspect of the Harley culture that I could never really wrap my head around.

I've owned Harleys for over 20 years but can't really get my head around the whole HOG thing.

Here in India, Harley-Davidson was having a huge problem trying to get owners to renew their HOG memberships after the first free year expired. Owners paid Harley separately for the road side assistance program and renewed their subscription faithfully every year. So last year Harley decided to do the age old trick of selling a low demand product by bundling it with a high demand one. They included the roadside assistance program in the HOG program. Now everyone is renewing their HOG memberships just so that they can get roadside assistance.

That's what used to happen in the UK and was the only reason I paid HOG subs for a few years. That all changed when they transferred the insurance franchise to a company called Carole Nash, who include recovery in all their policies.

The all controlling "in the family or a bad person" mentality where a group controlled by the corporation acts to squash any independent thought along the lines of "maybe I'll try a sportsbike next time" I find mildy disturbing and Orwellian. I actually asked Triumph to stop bombarding me with RAT stuff because pretending advertising was an owners organisation seems dishonest. I guess if you like the happy clappy, isnt what I bought the best thing possible reinforcement you may think differently and some cultures will have more people who like this.

I toyed with the idea of a Harley and HOG in the UK really put me off. Everything aped the US, the exclusive language, the uniforms, rules about not riding your non-Harley bike....it was heading towards some sort of cult. If i'm going to join a cult I at least want one where you get to dance naked and take mind altering drugs, fat blokes in tassles don't cut it.

Harley make good bikes now, so I wonder why they think they need to protect sales in this way? Younger, non-Americans, the buyers they need are surely split on this and a more neutral stance would be better?

Andy

Funny, I never thought of you as a fat bloke in tassels :rofl:

The whole HOG thing, the band of faux rebel brothers image, all of that anti establishment "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", real men ride Harley's bulls1t is what puts me off. A pity really as the few times I've ridden one they seemed ok as slow, somewhat agricultural, bikes go.

I rode a couple of the non outlaw versions (Buells, if you remember them) some years back and I really liked them . As a older model CCM owner I must have a soft spot for half developed in a shed type bikes as I could see myself buying a Buell.

As a kind of motorised horse to ride off into the sunset in a soft focus version of your life as a western desert cowboy movie they might just about work (the vision doesn't really work if you're on a screechy two stroke or a zillion rev Jap multi) but for anything else the illusion / delusion comes up short. There's an element of football supporter mindset in there somewhere where the scarves and the shirts and the communal chanting from the terraces goes some way to overlooking the problem of a team with 22 left feet.

Good marketing though. If you can convince people to tattoo your product's name on their chest you really must be world class.

Pink pussycat club Soho, second Tuesday of the month, ask the doorman for Doris :innocent:

:rofl:

Andy

A key thing to remember is that whilst the first year's HOG membership is included FOC on sale of a new bike, participation in HOG events/wearing patches or, indeed, getting the brand logo tattooed on your backside is optional.

You don't need to wear the leather waistcoat and HOG patch to own or ride a H-D. You don't need to call all your mates 'bro' nor are you forced to attend the weekly regimented chapter ride outs. But you can if you want to !

Some people buy a H-D because they want to be part of all that stuff. Others buy H-D because they love the bike. Each to their own. I'm in the latter category and should be taking delivery of my new H-D within a week or so.....

USA Culture
 

USA Culture of "bad ass or bad boy" image developed from the so called 1%s made famous by AMAs own way back when at the rally in Hollister Calif.back in the mid 40s and the movie "Wild Ones" release started the trend of "week End Warrior" types & the rest is history.

Most all of what are seen today are Doctors, Lawyers Dentist Stock Brokers & Mailmen who bought into the hype & adopted the Walter Mitty persona for weekends & annual Sturgis Rally.

How do I know this, well, I bought in the 50's & have been seduced ever since,& as a 20Year veteran on Sturgis I've been as much a part of the evaluation as anyone, I was one of those that saw the sun rise & set in HD & refused any others as "jap crap & euro junk", until the early 70s when I hooked up w/some cross country/enduro racers and ever since have be a advocate for it's not what you ride, it's that you ride, PERIOD.

Yes, I was one of those that road a "Hard tail" across 3 states only to end up pissin blood for three weeks after returning, then finding out it was simpler to trailer the bike since I had to answer to on one,for I HAD RIDDEN MINE to Sturgis. Then I found the luxury of a smooth 500 mile day on a BMW & Haven't looked back since. So now at 72 I ride what I want, & yes, I still own a Harley plus that BMW GS & look back at the development of the sport, bikes & bikers with fond memories.

The "patch and pin" culture is just identifying yourself to people with similar interests. Not really any different than a bunch of stickers from far away places on the Jesse panniers on a GS. I often wear a Horizons Unlimited T-shirt when I go somewhere where there will be a lot of riders, it has started more than a few conversations.

Harley culture has an interesting history going back to the 1920's or so in this country. But the more interesting bit ... and the bit that still influences "the look" of today's group of HD Weekend Pirates, really started in earnest after WW2 with returning Vets looking for some thrills.

Someone mentioned the Hollister, California event (inspiration for Brando's
The Wild One.) In typical Hollywood style, the event was overblown in the film but still fun to watch even today. Brando's "Johnny" is emblematic of the One Percenter, his character was copied buy dozens of tacky biker movies throughout the 1960's.

But there were real riding groups (Gangs?) and they were there well before the films. Where do you think Hollywood got the idea? From real biker gangs.

I grew up in L.A. and saw my fair share of REAL Hell's Angels, Statin Slaves and Mongols. Up close and personal. This was in early 60's but the gangs were around before that. But by the 60's they got really strong and organized ... all the while HD was paying attention, but the company was on the rocks, barely surviving at that point. Remember, the Hard Core bikers were the ONLY ones to stand by HD when it was near total failure, then during the dark AMF buy out ... everyone else, old and young wrote HD off. The old folks switched to Honda Gold Wings, young riders went dirt riding or sport riding ... and NO ONE but BIKERS bought HD.

Question for HD was ... do we disown these hoodlums? Or embrace them? HD embraced them ... but at a safe distance and it came later, in the 1980's.

What I find interesting is how Harley-Davidson walked the thin, sharp edge, using the "Bad Ass Biker" image to sell thousands of bikes and hundreds of millions of dollars in riding gear, yet carefully dodged direct connection with actual Biker Gangs. Public relations genius, IMO.

By the 80's the community began to shift in a major way. Old guys were dying off, Baby Boomers were coming in. After the Evo motor came along in 1985, things really changed. Harley's got reliable and the Lawyers, Dentists and Real Estate developers began their Mid-Life Crisis rides. This still goes on today.

This group of RUBS (Rich Urban Bikers) grew the brand to huge proportions and made riding a Harley an acceptable activity. (It's OK dear, they just look like Pirates, they're not real! ... :rofl:)

One of the more interesting manifestations is how HD culture has expressed itself in countries outside the USA. Like serious bad ass bike gangs in Norway and Sweden ... WTF!!! :rofl:

Our riding group used to travel to Death Valley twice a year. Did this for 15 years. Nearly every time we go we run into Foreign Riders on (mostly) rented Harley's. Most organized tours.

I've met BIG French and German groups, 20 to 25 riders in each group. They have a ball, all dressed in the nicest HD leather outfits you could imagine ... and ALL ready to party! The Typical Euro tour would be: Fly into Vegas, ride out to Grand Canyon then Death Valley and back to Las Vegas to fly home. Usually 3 to 4 day tour.

Some hard core guys ship their own Harleys over. BIG MONEY. We have even seen a group of Japanese on rented Harley's. (about 8 riders). Also have run into groups from: Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Norway, Denmark, Sweden. Simply amazing. The HD brand does, indeed, have very long legs!

These guys did nothing but buy things. Most organized tours had chase vans (towing spare bike or two) so they could load up on trinkets, just load then into to the 15 passenger vans.

The HD Gang connection is also interesting to me. Books have been written about this ... and some of the HD branding really originates from the gangs. HD try to disavow and distance ... but secretly sit back and chuckle .... and rake in the cash. They've exploited the bad boy image to the max.

But why stick so exclusively with it when for every member of the Sons of Accountancy (Woking and Redbridge Chapter) another rider laughs at the costume and buys a Honda?

The marketing genius seems to have departed?

Andy

I was reading about Harley's "Project Rushmore" recently. Harley for the first time, put their Ultra Limited into a wind tunnel. One of the design goals they were looking to achieve was a phenomenon they called "beard lift". That tickled me. :rofl:

When we were working out the logistics of our USA trip - roughly this time last year - and mentioned to friends that we were doing a bike trip across the states every single one of them would come back with "You're going on a Harley, right"?

Well, no, we used a Honda and a Triumph but the expectation that US road trip = Harley seems to be almost universal. Certainly the vast majority of bikes we saw on the trip were Harleys, outnumbering everything else put together by about 10:1. In the warmer states it was an unusual sight to see anyone not dressed as a "pirate" lookalike riding one. We'd talk to riders at fuel stops and they were mostly either American RUBS away for the weekend or (during the week) tourists "doing" Route 66 or some other pre arranged agenda on rented bikes.

In the past the Japanese manufacturers used to bring out a "wild" version of a new bike that would gain some kind of notoriety and then successively soften it each year but the bike would still sell on first year reputation. Harley seem to have done that with their "software"; the original bike of choice for the real 1%-ers is now some kind of reflected glory lifestyle statement for many others. In many cases it's not so much a means of transport as home decor on the interstate. You are how your ride looks / sounds.

As long as the myth of the man with no name, the loner against the system, riding the endless desert roads into the sunset, an individual in a corporate, regulated world, exists Harley will do well out of it. That's what they're selling, and even if there's a half a million identikit "individuals" turning up at Sturgis each August that conflict isn't something the first bottle of Jack Daniels can't fix.

Over here though - oh dear. When I see someone with two brand new custom painted Harleys in a converted "outhouse" and living in a house with a leaky roof - as I did recently - I wonder if Harley have oversold it. If you really can fool some of the people all of the time their future is assured.

That's the problem with a bad ass biker lifestyle - all those burgers play hell with your cholesterol. :rofl:

Very true. I buy fridge magnets of places I travel and ride to. That's my thing. My fridge at home is filled with these magnets. Someone visiting my home may find that weird, just like how I find it weird to paste a bunch of strikers all around your motorcycle. I guess that's because I spend hours (literally) shining the chrome of my Harley and Enfield. And plastic of my Tiger and Duke.

I say to each his own. Whatever floats your boat. :-)

Another HD Spin Off: Metric Cruisers
 

Another bit of HD influence on the market. Every one of the big 4 Japanese companies jumped full force into trying to build Harley look a likes. We call them "Metric Cruisers". They still do this today but it's no longer as lucrative as it was from about 1989 up to about 2000, where Jap Cruisers began to fade. Most are still sold in the USA today but things have quieted down sales wise.

Having attended many manufacture product intro events, learned some interesting statistics during the Tech and Marketing session presented.

Cruisers, in the USA market, were the overall most profitable segment from roughly '89 up to early 2000's. Only a few key sport bikes took top honors, but overall, cruisers were the true Bread and Butter for the big four for two decades.

I know in the UK it's different, not sure what "Metric Cruisers" are sold over there. Here, they are big. Most are way better (IMO) than a Harley, much cheaper to buy and maintain and more fun to ride.

Yet, they get no respect ... and are a favorite whipping boy from racist Tatoo'd Pirate crowd. (Jap Crap and all the rest)

So, as a result of HD's huge success at reviving an ancient WW2 design, repackaging and modernizing it (very carefully), then pedaling it to a whole generation longing to view life through the rear view mirror and live Walter Mitty/Ronald Reagan/ Cowboy/Wild One fantasies, this illusory lifestyle has crossed over and given birth to Japanese Cruisers, and became their best selling segment FOR YEARS. Thank you Harley-Davidson! :smartass:

All we rebel journos always told the Japanese OEM reps they were headed for disaster with Metric Cruisers, but it never happened. Sales just grew, profits increased massively for over a 10 year period. How could we have been so wrong?

At the intro for one of the "Star" motorcycles (cruiser line by Yamaha) an executive informed us the typical amounts owners spent on accessories. Astounding amount of money on average. (all the Jap OEM's track this sort to stuff) Most would spend (on average) $3000 on day of purchase, then an additional $3000 in the next year.

Also informed us that 80% of these bikes spent most of their life in the garage.
Typically doing less than 1000 miles a year.

So, accessories are THE BIG THING in Cruiser world. ...and more like a Harley your Metric Cruiser looks ... all the better. (I think most look BETTER the an HD)
Look at the Metric Cruiser line ups of the big four. (Yamaha is Star in this segment). Cruisers are still a big part of what they do.
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Star Stratoliner
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Ready to head out for test ride.

I wouldn't discount the effect of celebrities starting to ride Harleys in the 80's either. Once you had everyone from Tom Cruise to Hulk Hogan to Malcolm Forbes riding, that put some distance between H-D and the dirty biker culture.

Where are the recent examples though? Drug driving hippies who resemble every serial killer and kiddy fiddler I was told to stay away from in the 1980's has me siding with the hill billy in the pick up truck. Mumbling multiple murdering cyborgs don't really do it. Chases now seem to use Ducatis and chick flick heros ride Italian or Triumph. I think the last Harley I saw was in some "comedy" with Wil Farell I turned off before the end.

Andy

I can confirm that, at least in India, Harley-Davidson is working towards changing their image. Recently, a video team from Harley-Davidson India visited a few of us from the Goa Chapter. They were looking for footage to create a documentary titled "Humans of Harley". The idea was to show owners in their homes and localities doing nice family stuff such as cooking, fishing, etc. as opposed to making a noise, drinking and partying, which is the current image of a Harley owner.

The video team came to my house and I had them interview me in my compound. Then they wanted to enter my home and shoot some footage with my wife and kids and I said "Hell no!" There was no way I was going to let them use my family to sell their twisted image. So I told the video team about my love for photography and we agreed that they shoot me riding along my village roads and me capturing the sunset with my camera. A preview of the documentary was recently released on Facebook.

The link is here. The guy you see first in the video is me.

Since I have a Fat Boy, a Tiger, a Duke and an Enfield, I'm part of many riding groups in Goa. The most boring guys to ride with are the folks from HOG. These are mostly relatively well off middle aged men who first need to seek permission from their wives to ride their motorcycles. All they want to do is ride some 30 to 40 kms and then sit down to drink. And needless to say, these are the guys who spend the most on their motorcycles, riding gear and clothes.

Most of them aren't real riders. They just want to look cool in front of their friends and family, apart from flaunting their wealth. I just can't associate myself with them and as a result have stopped riding with them altogether. They wear their patches and pins with pride. But what I find most funny is the way they "wear" their tattoos. They have these skin colored elastic "sleeves" that have bad ass tattoos on them. I think you get the picture. :-)

I have read Jay Dobyns book as from when he was an undercover cop infiltrating the worst HD gangs over in US - "No Angel" http://www.amazon.com/No-Angel-Harro.../dp/0307405869
One of the main reasons that I never ever for any reasons in the world want to be called a biker. I am a traveller and I travel by motorbike, thats it. I dont belong to a group or a gang. Most of the time I prefer to travel alone. I can ride where I want when I want. I can wear what I want. I can like and dislike what I want etc etc. Thats freedom....

Snakeboy, yup, you said it right. That's true freedom.

I have read Jay Dobyns book as from when he was an undercover cop infiltrating the worst HD gangs over in US - "No Angel" No Angel: My Harrowing Undercover Journey to the Inner Circle of the Hells Angels: Jay Dobyns, Nils Johnson-Shelton: 9780307405869: Amazon.com: Books
One of the main reasons that I never ever for any reasons in the world want to be called a biker. I am a traveller and I travel by motorbike, thats it. I dont belong to a group or a gang. Most of the time I prefer to travel alone. I can ride where I want when I want. I can wear what I want. I can like and dislike what I want etc etc. Thats freedom....

Exactly! Very good point! Don't forget Jay Leno! Jay rode all sorts of bikes but rode on many HD events. And now we get movies like "Wild Hogs". doh

This is something I am honestly incapable of understanding. :(

Why on earth does anyone want to be seen anywhere near a vehicle, whether 4 wheels or 2, that looks 70+ years old?

I first began to take an interest in automotive design when I was 5 years old. As a result, I think the 1959 model year was probably one of the best EVER in US automotive design - forget the tall finned 55/56/57 Chevies and give me the long, low and wide gull winged '59 Impala.

Same with bikes, I first took an interest in bikes as a 16yo in 1970. Forget the chrome tanked Japanese designs from the '60s and the round tank British machines with their huge chromed badges - instead I wanted the painted square bread box designs from 1970 onwards.

Even today, in my 60s, I still think the most attractive bikes are the sleek faired road racers such as the R1, GSXR1000 and ZX10 - despite the fact that it has been well over 30 years since my body could conform to the ergonomics. :rofl:

So for modern day riders to desire bikes that hark back to the '30s and '40s just suggests these owners are sheep rather than following their own sense of style.

What say others? :confused:

Triumph has a term for these motorcycles - modern classics. And they seem to be selling quite well. At least here in India.

So the '59 Chevy is the pinnacle of automobile design, but you are a sheep if you prefer a retro styled bike, even if it has modern performance. Okay, got it.

:cool4:I'm sure you have all sorts of vintage clubs in Oz ... here in USA it's a huge hobby, billion dollar business in parts, car shows and cruising events. Some over lap with bikes, where vintage bikes are brought in too.

Look at the recent ... and very successful launch of a re-born Indian Motorcycle company (owned by Polaris, who also make Victory motorcycles as well as snow mobiles, ATV's and Jet Ski's)

Why folks love these antique recreations is also beyond me. I don't consider their fans Sheep really, just that in USA at least, there is no accounting for tastes ... and some people are WAY over paid!

Perhaps you don't have the social diversity in Oz that we do in USA? I figure, let the market sort it out and let those with more money than brains spend their cash on whatever they like. They'll never get my money. :helpsmilie:

much prefer the late 50's/early 60's Caddies.

I loved all the vintage bikes ... except HD and Indians. Loved the Ariel Square Four, MV Augusta's and Gilera multi's, Rickman Triumph Desert racers, Bultacos and on and on and on. Perhaps due to my early negative exposure to "Biker Gang" guys (I was 11 or 12 years old) I've never appreciated HD or Indian bikes all that much.

yea, there are some Sheep within the huge HD resurgence. You only need attend Sturgis or Daytona (I've been to both) to Grok this. It's kind of a mysterious social phenom ... in some way inexplicable ... and perhaps really hard for foreigners to understand? Dunno. No big deal.

We've helped broke down Harley guys many times on our rides ... and THEY HAVE helped us. At least they are on two wheels ... even though I'm on Earth and they seem to be on Mars.
bier
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I've had so called retro bikes, a 790 Bonneville and Guzzi V7. Selling features are

1. Low height, twin shocks mean you are an inch lower, important for the vertically challenged. If the ergonomics were right in 1930 they work now, no need for bum in the air and knees by your ears.
2. Everything is acessible to work on.
3. Round headlights work better on incandescent technology.
4. Race fashion produces just as much stupidity and sometimes the retro designers accidentally stumble into the practical area the people in the middle of last century aimed at. Guzzi gave the V7 300 miles range because the tank was styled when engines did 40 mpg not 60.
5. Low power and torque is more useful than race spec screamers for range and other running costs.

I have tested a Sportster and only the idiot salesman with his HOG roasts and petrol preservative put me off. I've had an Enfield and Ural too, but that's more authentic to the point of painful.

I also don't get the style thing but see desigsn features I like. My current NC ticks the ssme boxes with modern style and that works too.

I can't usually tell one car from another. My employer just gives me a list and I pick the one that costs least on tax but has a good radio. I would put a Landrover Defender made two years ago against that Cadillac though.

Andy

No, you are missing my point.......

....... which is that I only like the design of vehicles which were styled "after" the period I first started to take an interest in them.

I don't like "retro style" vehicle design which harkens back to a period earlier than that, which is why I can't understand why riders who are the same age as, or younger than me, do like bikes with a 1940s styling theme.

It suggests you have a problem accepting that people can have views and opinions contrary to the ones you hold. That's your issue mate, work it out rather than bad mouth others.

Harley Davidson was not so long ago a struggling company. So in order to sell bikes they turned to marketing 101, and created a culture and a place to "belong" since then sales have went through the roof.
People wanting to pretend they were felon drug dealing rapists now could so so without committing a felony to get a patch, nor the actual danger of being said felon. Win Win for marketing and twisted dreams of bad assary.

:thumbup1:
Good summation and on the right track .. but a little off.
First off, Harley did not "create a culture", it was there staring them in the face.
They simply had the good business sense to figure a safe way to tap into that "Bad Ass Biker" culture which had existed since the late 1940's. The Biker gangs laid the ground work ... HD only had to open the tap. $$$$$$$$$$$$$

As I mentioned in earlier post about HD history, HD had to walk a fine line here so as not to be accused of being a "pro gang" company. But the Employee owned company (bought back after the AMF debacle) prevailed and those employees were much closer to real HD riders than the guys in suits in the boardroom. Sadly, employees eventually lost control to a corporate buy out ... who really got rich as HD stock rose.

Another major Game Changer was introduction of the Evo motor in 1985 ... and the decision to get into selling seriously high quality riding gear in a BIG WAY. Hugely profitable.

I have a retired 30 year Harley Dealer as a good friend. Very knowledgable multi millionaire. His stories of HD evolution and history are legend. One of his side businesses, (started mid 80's) was selling T-Shirts at HD events and rallies.
Made millions ... off feckin' T-Shirts! doh

Molly, TWB, Deelip et al.

First, I agree the '59 and '60 Caddy Eldorado convertibles are the absolute pinnacle in automotive styling. From that point forwards, apart from the Italian thoroughbreds most vehicles have become more subdued in their styling.

Second, yes, we have our share of Vintage clubs here in Oz too - I personally am a member of the Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club - but I think there is a big difference between members of what I call "classic" bike clubs, and the Cruiseresque neanderthals who ride and drive "artistic recreations".

Third, yes, I am also totally opposed to the criminal elements that ride motorcycles and go by the name of bikie gangs. I feel these individuals have tarred the image of motorcyclists and caused a lot of problems for those riders who simply want to ride, rather than project a threatening image. So when I see ostensibly educated individuals trying to emulate the image of being a criminal by riding the bikes gang members choose to ride, and dressing like a "bad ass pirate" it disturbs me. Like Molly, my exposure to bikies when I was in my teens has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Fourth, yes, I agree ergonomics is very important for a bike and that older designs can be a lot more comfortable. Many "adventure" style bikes are nothing more than an ergonomic replication of the riding positions of bikes from the '60s and '70s. As an older rider I really appreciate this. However, compare this to your average 1940s style cruiser with "features" such as feet forward riding positions, raked forks, limited ground clearance, tiny headlights, thick handlebars, small capacity tanks and tiny pillion seats - all of which either counted separately, or combined, add up to an ergonomic and safety disaster.

Finally, I do agree these older style bikes are selling well, I just don't believe the vast majority of them are being purchased by those who truly enjoy riding motorbikes, rather they are bought by those who like the "badass" image. If they were true motorcyclists, then why would they predominantly only use their bikes for group rides, trailer them to rallies, ride them only short distances to the local pub or cafe, and only on sunny days? Short answer = sheep.

A popular style that has emerged recently among the HD guys (younger mostly)
are super HIGH "Ape Hangar" type handlebars. Very common and SO stupid.doh
Not only uncomfortable but dangerous as Hell at any speed over about 60 mph.

Not to mention the rider becomes a huge Wind Sail, loose Levi or leather jacket flapping like a flag. Absurd. You can actually SEE the FLEX in the bars, as they are so high up! doh

Here in California these clowns are often the fastest on the Freeways, splitting lanes (filtering) at 75 mph when traffic is flowing nicely at 65 mph. These are the guys who will turn the public against us ... and force them to outlaw lane splitting entirely. (now legal in CA) bier

The world would be a less interesting place if everyone of the same age had the same tastes.

I currently own 6 motorcycles, 6 different brands. Regardless of which one I might be riding if you met me, if you chose to pidgeon hole me according to what you believe about riders of that bike, you would be wrong.

If you say Harley people rightly or wrongly think weekend pirate village people. I'm 41 and at the younger end of the UK bike community. The training and insurance costs limit new riders to sucessful 30-45 year olds. These guys (and they are mostly male) want usable bikes with features that match their cars. BMW GS's etc. match a sort of continued gap year mentality so sell well. The Italian lifestyle, street fighter, video game in real life nakeds like the Monster do well and lead on to the classic styles. What I see very little of here is leather body warmers and beards on the under 55's. Sports bikes are becoming rare as we have wall to wall speed cameras and renting at a track is cheaper than insurance for the road. People also like to switch types, a Japanese naked followed by an Italian classic followed by a German adventure bike because the new style is part of the buying experience almost like getting a new haircut to go with new clothes.

I wonder where Harley go next as they do seem to be one trick pony in this regard? Do they think 33 year old lawyers and accountants are suddenly going to decide Dennis Hopper, 70 mile range and apehangers are cool? I'd be thinking of getting that engine into something that looks more like a Vincent and wouldn't look out of place parked outside an Italian coffee shop. If they toned down the biker gang think I think they could have their cake and eat it.

Andy

when I had my cruiser (Honda 1100 shadow ace) I tried the whole vest/pin thing...idea was to get the pine of places/events/etc I go to/visit/participate in...better than collecting those little spoons of plates. But I discovered several key facts:
1) I find vest too damn uncomfortable, I tended to leave it off/forget to bring it/etc.
2) vests are NOT protection....
3) I look horrid in one anyway and just can't pull off the 'badass biker' look...even if I don't shave for a week. doh

There's still a lot of mileage in the pirate market yet. It's the first half decent sunny day of the year here and my staid and sedate neighbour from down the road has just rumbled by on his Harley, complete with matt black open face helmet, shades and cowboy style sleeveless leather jacket. If he's bought into it there must be countless weekend warriors harbouring secret "outlaw" fantasies. He may have to transport the kids to football and his wife to Tesco's in the anonymous diesel "mini van" during the week, but Sunday morning .....

Remember Buells? The one attempt that "they" made to broaden the appeal of the marque foundered upon, well, I'm not sure - internal politics? real economics? something else? Certainly from my outsider-on-the-other-side-of-the-planet perspective it looked like they were only playing at it and didn't really take the potential seriously. Maybe it was a case of interesting design ideas cobbled together with 50 yr old technology parts that didn't gell.

You've reminded us of yet another interesting twist in the long Harley story.
I agree, they pretty much blew their chance to really diversify the mark and to bring in the next generation of Harley riders. What they did do were half hearted efforts, under financed projects the board of directors did not stay with long.

Their last best hope was Eric Buell. I loved Buell motorcycles, more their spirit of ingenuity and innovation rather than their actual capabilities.
The race bikes Eric Buell built right at the end of the road ... were indeed, quite impressive. I was lucky enough to have got many Buell press bikes, some I got to hang onto for over a month. They just kept getting BETTER AND BETTER.

But apparently ... the PHD executives on the top floor could not wait, ran out of patience .... As if you can build a brand in 10 years ... or even 20. :rofl:

But to fill in the blanks .. we must say Harley did do more. Half hearted efforts?
Perhaps.

One move was the 883 Sportster. (late 80's) Specifically designed for novice riders and Women. With a very low seat height and smaller look, it had some good elements for beginning riders.

The other beginner bike effort was the Buell Blast, a 500cc single. IMO, this platform had great potential. Labeled a "chick bike" by the One Percenters, Harley got scared and pulled the plug after 3 or 4 years of production. The Blast was doing fairly well, and many NON HD riders bought this bike, but overall numbers were modest.

I can't recall any other significant efforts to broaden the base. Even with profits soaring ... HD held back and relied on the same basics, betting on nostalgia and pseudo American myth to carry the mark forward.

Best thing I've seen from them recently is an impressive electric bike ... which will most likely NEVER go into production.

"So, Einstein" ... people say ... "What would YOU have HD do?" "What direction should they take?"

1. Keep making the same crap ... it's bread and butter for HD, can't give that up.
2. Build two Adventure bikes, one using modernized V twin and built by Eric Buell, the other using a single, built from scratch. Could be a flat track race replica, ADV bike, Commuter beginner bike, dual sport bike. So, multiple bikes built on ONE platform and engine.

The R&D of ADV bikes should be overseen by Eric Buell.

Give these bikes at least 10 years. Get behind them, market them (they never helped Buell in this regard) and get them in the hands of the right people in the press.

Right now, Harley are in big trouble. Both Indian and Victory are kicking their ass in nearly every category. But there are SO MANY HD's on the road presently, the company will still do well just from parts, service and maintenance for 20 years to come. Re-sale value of HD is dropping and THOUSANDS can be seen for sale every day on Craig's list sites world wide.
Prices are still good ... how much longer before prices take the elevator to the ground floor?
bier

Few things to add here.

First off, the 59/60 Eldorado are no where near the Pinnacle of automotive styling. While Molly certainly knows his motorcycles, he should stick in that regard as automotive styling was magnificent long before 60.
IF you like Bling however I would say the 50s and early 60s with their chrome everywhere could be linked to the Height if you will before the demise to plastic everything .
IMO the Pontiacs, Buicks and Cadillac's absolutely owned in this regard in those periods. IMO however one of the best looking rigs ever to exist was the 50 Merc PERIOD!
I had a Mint 57 Pontiac Chieftain I really regret getting rid of. That is saying something as I had a laundry list of dream classic cars by the time I was graduated highschool. Look at this baby (not mine, I had one which was yellow and black) https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...CA8C&FORM=VIRE

Next, despite my absolute disdain for Hogs I would bet there is an equal amount of garage queen metric bikes (more probably) as there are hogs.
In fact nearly every person I know who rides Hogs actually tours on them :mchappy: One used to wear colors (great guy and you will not haer me say that often) the others of course are posers.
My actual thoughts regarding Hogs, and how my personal disdain grew.
Thoughts of the Ages: Harley Davidson, why I want to make a boat anchor out of one.

Stereo types can apply at times, but more often they fall short.
One thing I learned while selling cars was never, ever pre judge.
I saw more people with Rolex Watches who were tapped out and could not finance a carton of Milk. While that that skater punk just wrote a check for that WRX and the old farmer with a paper bag full of bills just paid cash for three trucks for his business.

While I will always side eye people like any other human being with some shameful tendencies, I know those side eyes are not always warranted, we are truly a fallible creature.

A couple more cars which showed styling to the max

The 47 Buick and the 61 studabaker hawk along with a 37 studabaker 59/60 Eldorado my butt :thumbdown:

Correct, I know little about old cars ... but I've been to lots of car shows, even been to Jay Leno's garage and met him several times at Malibu Rock Store, he would drive a different classic every weekend! Just a subjective thing ... all personal taste I guess. I loved those old Merc's too. Popular around LA area when I was growing up.
Bingo! Just as many Metric posers as Hogs, maybe more as they are not as committed. HD guys probably ride more as they have MORE rallies to go to.
Out in the middle of Nevada, Arizona, Colorado and Utah I saw more HD's on the road than any other bike .... especially around Strurgis time of year.

I did learn a bit about one Classic car, the Tucker car. I worked on the movie. Every Tucker in the world was brought in for that film! Interesting story. Movie bombed! doh Good fun though!

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-.../i-RTkZVNX.png

You got to go to Lenos Garage?

Worked on the movie Tucker (good movie btw) Where the hell did I go wrong in life :rain: Well pretty much everywhere :rofl:

We used to rebuild totaled cars when I was young for extra cash, then got into buying and selling classic cars (where we lost our butt) in my high school years. Mind you dad was a solid Blue Collar guy so not like we had a step up at all. Being a economically depressed area and most of us young ones not having much, some of us took our skills to working on cars to make a few extra bucks on the side, or of course street racing (Hypothetically)
So I as a bit of a car nut early on, and I admittedly back then knew very little of bikes, other than I always had one. :scooter:

I will say this, despite having had a bike for much of my life, I was at the doctors the other day who admitted he was not much into bikes, but had toured all over Europe and the US, so I guess whatever works for someone.

I think a good amount of bikes that end up Garaged are do to fear, be it the rider who scared the shit out of himself, maybe was just afraid in general, or a family member who keeps the doubts in their mind.

Then we always have the ones who are regardless of brand simply want to brag and pretend.

I liked the Hawks better before they put the big grills on them...

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-co...-Commander.jpg

Deelip, go with the flow, wear the pin and sew on the patch.......and then get a HOG tattoo on your forehead to complete the set :thumbup1:

It makes me cringe...

I used to work at a Harley Davidson dealer.

The whole thing is a big American commercial plastic farce. The bikes are slow, expensive and noisy and the chrome comes from China.

Middle ages accountants, stock brokers and estate agents dressing up in too much leather once a week and walking around like they're Butch Cassidy.

Take the bandana off.... You look ridiculous.

Take the back patch off ... You're not a hells angel.

What's with the leather chaps ?? Do you have a horse to Lasso when you get home ?

Stop revving your noisy exhausts just before you get off your bike. We already know you're here and you're ruining our conversation.

doh