The bikes we travel on
 

I have recently been reading about a complaint on the forum. It is concerns the problems a traveller endured in a far off part of the world due to the breakdown of his high tech, state of the art motorcycle and the subsequent lack of support he felt he got from the manufacturer.

This is not the first tale of woe I have encountered in regard to the shortcomings of travelling using a vehicle loaded with state of the art electronics and I wonder why people put themselves in this vulnerable position. If, as readers surely do, you wish to travel to and in these places, wouldn’t it be more appropriate to use vehicles better suited to the task. That is a vehicle that is uncomplicated, that can be more easily repaired in the field either by the rider or by a local workshop; one that is not largely tied to being fixed by the manufacturer’s dealer network.

I cannot think of any reason for buying and using a modern high tech bike for adventure travel, unless you are doing it the Ewan and Charlie way. Can anyone enlighten me?

Because they can and want to!
Each of us decides what equipment or machines we like and works for us.
Few take the time to learn about their steeds/kit and rely on others to fix everything when things go pear shape.

Everything we use can break - expecting any support or claims made, usually driven by marketing forces... especially when very far from home can and usually does lead to great disappointment.

I have moved in this direction a while ago by replacing my BMWR 1150GSA for an older and simpler BMW 100GSPD.......when I say replaced, that was because my 1150 was written off in a smash and I saw the 100 for sale in a rather fetching 90's style turquoise and white, a bit like the colour bike I would imagine a shell suited gay porn star would ride.

Then I realised it was simple to maintain and reliable....... as well as being in gay porn star colours.

win, win and win.

I have now moved back to a smaller ( 650 ) but modern bike, because the new bike gets twice the fuel mileage, is simple and and also appears to be very reliable.

The other main reason that I have gone back to a modern bike is because it is also my commuter bike for work, shopping,weekend fun, hunting solo teenagers etc.

Hopefully, this will not turn into yet another anti-BMW thread
 

And in the UK at least, have been doing so for a number of years.
BMW R 1200 GS UK’s best-selling motorcycle over 125cc - BMF’s Motorcycle Rider magazine

I feel sure you are referring to the recent thread about a Beemer 1200GS in Peru which had a problem; for every one of these that has a problem (which turned out to be a very well known issue that occurred for some years of this bike) there are countless others that complete their journeys with no problems at all.

It is a feature of human nature to hear only about problems - no one writes about things that go well, even including the press.

Footnote: For a second opinion, see post number 62 in here:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ed-know-8332-5

Actually, unless you want to ride 10+ year old machines, it's hard to find a decent bike without computers, FI etc etc.

So better get familiar with OBD, FI, fuel pumps and increasingly CANbus etc

None of it is that hard to understand, diagnose and fix; handy riders have fixed their F800GS type bikes with any old available fuel pumps in Africa. Granted immobilizer type problems are harder to work around, but even then there are known fixes and bodges.

Big mistake the OP made was not taking a GS911 with him and not listening to the advice the Adventure community gave him IMHO.

Old bikes are indeed great, unless you do break down with an unfixable problem, and require spares urgently.

As happened to me on my last big trip, the Old 100 GS decided to turn its starter motor into molten slag and a few other nearby parts got damaged as well.

Even though this happened in Albania, and I had to travel through Greece etc until finally get an unofficial repair in Budapest,Hungary....there was no number of bike shops that tried to help and could have got me the spares rapidly.....except, that old bikes like mine are not stocked as spares anymore and have to be ordered in.A newer bike like the R1200Gs could have had a new starter motor fitted on the day in Greece for example.

A perennial discussion point.

What surprises me is not what bikes people choose to ride but the blind faith people many people put in their choice irrespective of whether they are old/new, simple/complex etc. Bikes are complex mechanical, and increasingly electronic, tools - of course they will break down sometimes. The wonder is they don't do it more often. If you can't live with a breakdown and its consequences choose another means of travel.

Many who bemoan problems with a bike (of any make) or dealer service seem to show a singular lack of self-preparedness, a gullibility in accepting the marketing messages of a manufacturer and all too commonly "its someone elses problem to fix it" attitude. If you get your enjoyment from a big expensive bike and want to take it away from its proven support network of dealers, then fine -do it. But also accept that if it breaks down it is going to be a pain in the arse; the local mechanics won't be experienced in fixing it, many dead ends may need to be followed before success and yes YOU have to pay for these both in $ and time. Many times people are putting themselves out even trying to help you so it seems harsh when people then complain about a behaviour which doesn't meet their ideal.

Me, I ride a simple old bike - not because it is any less likely to break down or easier to fix, but because it has less value. I can imagine how much stress a breakdown on a $20-30,000 bike must cause - you have so much invested in it you have to get it home and it has to be fixed at any cost. With my $2000 bike I tell myself at the end of the day if it all gets too hard I can simply walk away, catch the train, continue the trip and financially survive.

Sorry if this has turned into a rant.

You'll do for me!

The only thing I would add is that there seems to be an increasing number of people riding who have absolutely no idea about how an engine works; back in the days, you had to know in order to deal with such things as daily maintenance, never mind the minor breakdowns on the side of the road.
Now, vehicles, in all of their forms, are expected to run many, many miles on extended-life-oils with minimal interaction with the humans involved in the process of travel.

+ There seems to be a general increase in the approach to travel which involves flying around the world, purchasing a bike and just setting off, with a learner's licence (or even no licence) and next to no experience in riding.
Could these be related? Surely not.
Just asking.

When my BMW was new it seemed like people loved to tell me that my bike was not suited for whatever I was doing and will fall apart in short time.
My bike is old now (16 year >240kkm) , and the people don't hassle me anymore, maybe they are to busy with the 800/1200GS crowd. doh

I have been in various camps. I loved my Enfield as great fun to ride and a very efficent means of geting places due to it's good range and light weight. I had to sell it as it wouldn't do my motorway commute to work. It was limited by 1990's Indian metalurgy and 1930's design tolerances. Knowing what to fix was easy, getting the bits was a PITA as the majority of the owners were thousand mile a year hobbyists who were just as happy with the bike in bits as moving. The parts came when the dealer finished selling chome polish and talking about the good old days.

I love my Wee and have plenty of toys, GPS, heated kit, internet access and so on. I have the means to diagnose a lot of the problems roadside with a paperclip to get the flash code going. The technology is what makes it reliable, efficient and a heck of a lot more powerful than the Bullet. You don't do 1000 mile days on a pushrod single and having two trip meters and all that electrical power is highly convienient. If I fried the engine ECU it would be painful.

I have run an 8 year old Triumph Bonneville in places it was never meant to go. It did it. Old bikes wear things out though. I could change the coil Hinckley use as a water collector in under 5 minutes given the amount of practice. I should not have had to, but Triumph designed this bike for old boys to go buy coffee on, they expected an 8 year old bike to have 7000 dry miles on the clock.

If they sold them here or I was going there I'd cheerfully buy the Utility 125's the Japanese sell outside of Europe. Quality, basic electronics where useful and the locals all trained up. I know plenty of riders who think 650cc should come with pink tassles on the bar ends and a basket for your teddy bear. 125cc in the Andes would have the voices in their heads making life very painful.

The CAN thing in Peru would seem at a distance of many thousands of miles easy to diagnose with a GS-911 reader and some training, neither of which is cheap or easy to get. The expectation a BMW dealer would have it readily available is entirely understandable, they will tell you the lie to your face (and I regret to say I've probably said things along the lines of "our office in XXXX will support you" knowing full well they were clueless grease monkeys in order to save my own job and sell something). I would buy a CAN bike only if it came with the diagnostic app for my phone though, experience tells me that what manufacturers claim for Germany doesn't happen in Wales never mind Peru. I do have about 12 years experience with other CAN vehicles while my experience with carbs etc. is as a hobby, so I would say my take on this has to be unusual.

There is no right answer. No one makes that 90 mph, 90 mpg, 350 mile range, 9000 mile service interval bike that never breaks down or can be fixed with a Swiss Army knife if it does. You pick your own balance of what is really available based on your own knowledge and performance requirements. I want quality electronics to a 10 year old design, only where they add something to where I use it, in a machine bought new, hence the Wee.

Peoples reactions to electronic failures are interesting though. If your laptop screen goes blue you will accept it isn't a 2 minute solution. If your engine goes bang and you can see what used to be the piston from the outside there is an acceptance that it is major. The very reliability (brake ECU failures in warranty were under 3 in a million) of vehicle electronics and the fact that they look so insignificant (video tape sized box) seems to lead to the conclusion that this is more like a duff spark plug than a highly significant event. There is also the unusual relationship with components. A welded up piston skirt is seen as a bodge fixing syptoms not a solution, yet people will ask you to solder new bits onto a failed circuit board and as long as it goes they are happy.

Andy

Car and bikes have improved enormously over recent years. They are inherently reliable and because of this our expectations have risen. The breakdown is now rarity to the extent that probably the most likely thing that could stop you on your journey is a puncture and even repairing this has been greatly simplified with the advent of tubeless tyres on bikes.

I personally wouldn't even consider travelling in a developing country on a bike on which I couldn't fix at least 90% of potential faults myself at the roadside using tools and parts that I'm carrying on the bike. The idea of being reliant on some sort of international dealer network offering some sort of satellite/internet diagnostic service would completely spoil the trip for me. One of the main reasons for travelling by bike is the independance it gives you, the freedom to roam, get off the beaten path and the feeling that you need to rely on your own resourcefulness not just to fix the bike but to survive. Riding around on some techno wizardry spaceship with built in security systems that are just as likely to cause you not to go as they are to prevent your bike from being nicked, and more unnecessary programs and gizmos than your average washing machine is definately not for me.

But that is just me and I accept that this is not everyone's point of view or their motivation for travelling.

Often forgotten during these discussions is the fact that third world or developing countries are full of complex, modern vehicles sporting elaborate electronics (i.e cars, trucks, buses) and somehow they seem to get fixed when necessary.

I recall an entertaining scene in Vietnam. A group of curb side, urban bush mechanics were hammering and wrenching away at scooters, the parts of which were spread all over a public street. Perhaps 50 metres away white coated technicians in glass enclosures were diagnosing scooter problems on laptops.

Hello
If your bike is stamped in your passport or even under a CDP the bike has to leave the country with you,no matter the costs of the bike.
sushi

Personally I've grown very tired of anyone taking a modern BMW on an "adventure" tour being compared to Ewan and Charlie. The fact is that properly prepped, and if you carry a couple of spare parts, these bikes are generally very reliable. Several years ago I was with a group riding from China to France; mainly R1200GS, a KTM and one old BMW (R800GSPD?). Guess which one was the only one to break down and have to be shipped home from Siberia? Yes, the GSPD, despite having parts shipped for it from Europe, etc.

I think more problems tend to come up if you take a new bike right off the showroom floor and haven't done any research to find out about known weaknesses to correct them prior to the trip.

I think its great that people want to take their 20 year old bikes around the world and certainly agree that there is no need to go out and buy a newer bike to do so. But on the other hand, if you're buying a bike for this kind of trip, I see no reason to limit the choice to something without FI, electronics, etc. Ultimately it is up to the individual to decide what is appropriate for them, is it not?

Absolutely...

Any bike can suffer a terminal breakdown - one beyond roadside repair or even local repair such as gearbox or crankshaft failure but it is fair to say that, whilst it is very unlikely, it is probably statistically more likely to happen to an older bike than a more modern bike.

My issue with the latest generation of bikes loaded with even more tech is that there are so many more elements in the system which, if they fail, stop you from going. I'm not talking about FI and electronic ignition which have been around for years and have become reliable. However as these bikes appear there is obviously a new generation of traveller evolving who doesn't expect to have to know their bike and how to fix it but plans their trip around the dealer network.

I'm from the Ted Simon generation and as he says; it always gets more interesting when you break down. The Charlie and Ewan generation have a panic attack if the battery is flat in the satellite phone.

Lumping all electronics together is a bit silly IMHO. Electronic ignition has been here since the 1970's. It is far superior to points. You get the real benefit of not having to make daily adjustments to extend the life of a component that is destroying itself. FI is close to doubling the range/halving the fuel use of the carbed bikes that came just before. It is about settings as the carbed bikes earlier still were more efficient than the later ones, but still an advantage we can buy rather than make. If there is an advantage I can see the point in changing the tools I carry.

Then though there is stuff that doesn't do anything for me. Electric lights are superior to acetylene for sure, but why do I need a CAN module to refuse the start the engine because it's detected a blown lamp? The switch worked fine without. It would be annoying in Munich a trip killer in Mongolia. It is not for my benefit to avoid German fines (and blame the manufacturer if I'm a lawyer), it is a way for the bike manufacturer to sell me a €2 lamp with a 50c chip added for €50 plus fitting. Bad on a road bike, useless on an overland one, not even workable when the dealers don't open 24/7.

They are also trying to reduce the tool kit to the Microsoft level. A modern vehicle and OBD2 reader is easier to use than mucking about stripping off parts to find silly little bits of rubber. The manufacturers making it close to impossible to buy the tool is not acceptable though. If one manufacturer made all his bolts 1/2-inch Whitworth and put 15.6mm AF nuts on them and refused to sell you the spanners, we simply wouldn't buy. When the only way to talk to a BMW is a reverse engineered GS911 tool I find that equally unacceptable. If they would sell me a dashboard add on or service tool, or even something that called Berlin and told me what to do, they would be a lot closer.

Treating the market as though it's stupid will be the death of certain brands. You can only act like Google when the competitors are still university projects, not the case in the bike market.

Andy

The bikes (plural) we travel on
 

I can't argue with any of that; but what of the other manufacturers?
Are they dragging their feet in the field of electronics for motorcycles or are they wiser than those Bavarians and staying clear of the newer technologies and ideas (EFI is a given)?

BMW have a problem the others don't. Their marketing is about technology and being German. They have to stay current and pay German wages and the crossover to the car side supports that. The car side is more like Microsoft, millions of drivers who will use their vehicle like their phone and are growing to expect a three figure bill and courtesy car for a blown bulb.

The Japanese big boys can wait and see how it goes, they sell on softer lines of just being there and no one knows or really cares if the bike was made in China or Brazil. They have the depth to bring in all the CAN toys for say a Goldwing or Burgman and use the basic electronics across their Africa market 125's all the way up to the Tenere sized stuff. If the car model makes more money they will change. If not changing brings GS owners to Tigers and Teneres they won't.

The real boutique manufacturers have to follow what their market wants and what the parts manufacturers can supply on cost. Brembo will be happy enough selling Moto Guzzi hydraulic brakes right up until the all the big boys have gone electric and the tooling needs replacing. The only driver will be legislation, hence you will see FI very similar to that on a Guzzi, on a Ural in the next two years. If they stuff up the software Ural owners will be buying new old stock and carb conversion kits.

Edit to add: Shouldn't forget the Chinese. Currently buying what the parts suppliers offer, but probably big enough to drive if they wanted to. I'm guessing the market will be happier with basic electronics from them for a while though.

The BMW servo brake is a good example. Worked in allowing the same hardware across a range, failed because the second hand value made ownership costs insane.

Andy

I'll just give my opinion(s) about the original post/idea...

I am (was actually) in the position to be able to compare as I did in the same year a trip on a DRZ400 and one on a 1200GS Adv.

Big difference in bike, big difference in the mind and a big difference overall in use and outcome.

I totally agree about NOT going on a big trip on an expensive new bike, unless I am sure that there would be "dealers" ie. spare parts available more or less around the countries I am planning on doing. This being said, I sold my 1200GSA and I am now on the road for 5 months with that money on 2 DRZ400E with my wife. The DRZ has a reputation of being reliable, well we found out that it's not as reliable as everyone says it is. Maybe we take them a bit too far but anyway, we had some problems (the piston coming out of the exhaust reads exactly the same as what happened to us last year...) they are really shit on comfort BUT I feel better on them traveling than I would on a big expensive bike.

Indeed, leaving a bike behind that costs you 20K or 2K is a huge difference. At that extend that you have way to much €$€$€$ on your mind all the time and forget to enjoy your trip and that the BEST things that in every trip happened to us, is when one of the bike broke down. (I am writing this btw while waiting as my bike broke down in Ukraine and finally we will continue our journey tomorrow) Also just the idea of "looking" rich on a big bike or adventurously poor on a smaller/cheaper one has is advantages... anywhere in the world!

Thing is, BMW is extremely good in marketing, we all have to admit this. And thing is, that it's human nature to "want" something, ie. a big adventure bike because you think you need it to o around the world...
Thing is, there are in the meantime a lot of people who did it on shit bikes, and had a lot more fun than anyone on a big GS will ever have going from hotel to motel on the road...

We try to do it as much as we can offroad and I won't go on a GS to where I'm heading now. Of course, my but won't hurt and I would be twice as fast, but I wouldn't have seen or experienced what we did now, being on a 400 going offroad or taking small shitty roads in remote places.

There's a market and opportunity for everyone in the world that is willing to go from A to B, that is willing to travel, that is willing to go on an adventure, ... We are all different and we all want something else. The guys on their 20K bikes just want to go from A to B (overloaded) and brag about that once they're back. For them that's adventure... and when the bike's braking down and he can't call for help and it won't ve fixed within the hour, his whole world goes upside down, as this is not what we expected nor wanted!

Well, for us, when I started researching which bikes to get, back in 2005 (for a one year round South America in 2007/08), I had to solve the following problems:

Find a bike low enough for me (I’m a midget!)
Find a similar model acceptable for my tall husband (he is tall!)
Find an engine size big enough for him and small enough for me
Get the same model (made sense)
Engine size from 350 to 650….
Find bikes available in the UK (So no DR650 sadly!)

After lots of research and thinking we agreed on the F650GS for me (with low seat it was perfect) and F650GS Dakar for the husband.
We did the BMW off-road class (in those days it was not yet too extortionate…) and were impressed with the bikes.

The DR350 would have been ideal if not so tall. Most bikes were either too tall or too heavy or not available in the UK.

Did I regret my choice? Oh dear God yes. I broke down everywhere, and as it is BMW, it was a nightmare to sort out! This has been documented in these forums (or check my website for details).

But in another hand, my husband had absolutely no issues with his GS! So, for him, it was a brilliant choice. Sure, BMW customer services were appalling as many people stranded find out! Again, I won’t go into details as my list of complaints is so long it would make a massive post.

So, what I have I learned? First that small is beautiful.

For Europe/Tarmac/easy gravel, I will stick to my trusted Kawasaki Versys, but any bike would do.

For my trip next year to Mongolia, we want to have the freedom to go anywhere we fancy, so we plan to get a couple of YBR125 in London. Cheap and tough. And easy to fix. Off the beaten track, we will be happy to have those little light wee bikes. And at the end of our trip, no need to pay £££££ to bring them back. They can be donated to charity … that’s the plan anyway.

We rented two of those YBR125 for few weeks in Vietnam, few years ago, and we were impressed. It was so easy to get through what was virtually goat tracks! It would have been impossible in a bigger/heavier bike. At least for me!

Oh yes, and I will never get Alu boxes again, way too heavy! The killer for me was the weight! So we travel light now!

And when we return to South America, we will buy a couple of small 250s over there. Plenty of excellent choices in that part of the world and cut the expense of transport from Europe to SA. Bringing them is cheaper too.

But we learnt those lessons the hard way. Now we know what works for us, but it might not work for others.

best bike ... any willdo
 

Haha - had to laugh.
I think that's typical of younger generation to be frank. I can pull engines apart and even work on electronics to some degree, my kids (and grandkids) would stare at it endlessly asking "why isn't it making a noise dad"?

Then again my first bike was built out of a box of bits in the late 70's, that's all I could afford so had to learn. These days, I can't be arsed and will buy new bike or newer bike I should say. On last trip I carried all tools and even the laptop and diagnostics software with me just in case. You cant carry everything, so DHL phone number and credit card would be last resort. As it turned out, worst thing to go wrong was a cheap Chinese battery which I should have replaced in UK before I left.

I'm thinking of the new Triumph explorer for my next trip but it is new and fly by wire and all that ... hmm might be pushing my luck a bit perhaps.

[QUOTE=
.There is no right answer. No one makes that 90 mph, 90 mpg, 350 mile range, 9000 mile service interval bike that never breaks down or can be fixed with a Swiss Army knife if it does.
Andy[/QUOTE]

Some people might not like this, but the closest bike to this is a Harley Sportster 883 with a large tank from a big Harley. It gets 60mpg, can go 90mph, if you put synthetic oil in it, it can go 9k miles between changes, and that's all that service is since there are no valves to adjust, no chain and sprockets to replace, just bring an extra belt. Large tanks in pre scratched and dented condition are available on Ebay for the price of a pizza.

Before you all attack me for being a Harley guy, I ride a Wee-Strom.

Well pleased with what I got.
 

I have been using an 25 year old CBR1000f. For all my trip's. But it were I go that make's sense. Not gravel track's. Tar Mack for me all the way. Always stay in the EU. What every happens there is a good chance that I'm going to get it fixed. In the six year's I have been doing this and round a dozen trip's under my belt. The Honda has never let me down. Service before I go. Then it's just petrol in the tank and check the bike one a week. I also have a bike trailer at home. So if push come's to shove. I can fly home and come back and collect it my self.

John933

I ride a Moto Guzzi California. Touch wood it has never broken down. But if it did I would have no use for a guy to turn up in a very flash, expensive van in white overalls, carrying a small case which costs probably more than my bike, and inside an even more expensive diagnostic tester.

But Like a lot of guys on here, I don't intend to ride across Africa. But I would also guess that most of the 1000s of large BMW riders I have seen all over Europe are not going to cross Africa. The big BMW GS bikes have become the 4x4 school run vehicles of the bike world.

I think Ewan and Charlie had a lot to do with it but people forget what problems they had with the bikes because of the size.

My other bike is a Honda 125 Innova. 100kph and 55kpl. We have even done 2 up camping trips with it without any problems. It is an ideal touring bike. The whole riding experience between a big and little bike is like chalk and cheese. You see far more on a small bike, it is easier to park, wild camping is easier, you can often go where a big bike cannot go and it is cheaper in all aspects.

Bike sales are down 80% in Denmark this year. Moped sales are rising a each year. It must say something.

I think we should all ride what we want but Big bikes are not always the best.

Steve

+1 on the YBR125 mentioned above. They punch far above their weight. Mine gets used for 2 up touring, commuting, and business, ferrying 2 or 3 people and bundles of goods around in some quite tough conditions.

Sent from my A898 Duo using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Not sure if it's the closest but I think it is very close. I nearly bought a Sportster in 2004. The salesman was a prat. You don't tell a bloke who rode an XT600E in through the snow about how you'll keep his new bike until the riding season starts in July and give out free petrol preservative! The technology and ride would have suited me. The Triumph salesman was drunk due to some launch event and made a deal on a Bonneville that probably got him the sack. This too only lacks a decent sized tank.

I was looking at Harleys again this morning. Does any tank fit any bike? Just move the fuel pump and bolt it on?

Andy

Aprilia Caponord, all Italian parts are ok, all other, well, are quiet ok.