At last nail hit on the head..... Ergonomics. The only people who can afford new bikes are us old chaps, we are not five foot six tall weighing ten stone?c?
It seems the Jap s use that as a Base model for anything sporty so don't go there. This leaves us with large overweight upright at bikes, the perfect thing for us fifty plus guys who like bacon sandwiches and beer beer.

I completely second the above. I like my XRV for its simplicity and durability but highways are no fun and that is keeping me from blasting long hauls for short breaks. Also the weight is a thing although I can pick up the bike by myself, even fully loaded but manoeurving / walking it, even wihout luggage is a thing. When I tilt it more than some15 degrees I have to lay it down :( Not so the new AT :) It feels so incredibly light compared to the XRV that it is almost spooky! It feels lighter than an XT660Z! Tilting it to 30/40 degrees (towards me while standing) was no problem at all! On top of that it is suposed to be great on highways. One journalist wrote that 160kph is a good cruising speed for the CRF :o Well, that did it for me. I have ordered one! :) :D

Cheers and Happy Holidays
Noel

come on, where is the middle? I don't need either 250cc or 1000cc+ bike -
I want 450cc, if it's good for the Dakar it sure will be good for me.

Ok, fine...

60% road - tremens' steed of choice! :biggrin3:

That's impressive! I just hope Honda is not up to the tricks Triumph used to do at bike shows (and other OEM's as well).

Triumph (I know this for a FACT) used "dummy" engines for show bikes.
No internals ... No crank, rods, pistons, cams, valve gear. Nothing inside!

The bikes were positively featherweights to push around or lay over. Triumph admitted to the trick later but I'm thinking a lot of average show attendees never knew, bought a new Tiger or something and found it was just a plain old heavy Pig in reality.

This was back in around 2002 or '03. Triumph claimed it was a "cost" thing since they could not ever sell the show bikes, so why put all the "guts" in them? These bikes traveled all over the world to shows.

They also said it made the demo fleet cheaper and easier to move, load and unload. Once this came out in the press ... they never did it again. But word is several other OEM's have done this in the past ... or may be currently doing it now??

I've leaned 520 lbs. bike over several times to test weight ... not light!
(BMWGS, Vstrom 1000, Capo Nord, all round 520 lbs. wet )

You really want a Dakar bike? :innocent:
The 450 class are great off road (if set up right) but not GREAT on long paved roads and not many I've seen would be ideal travel bikes. Good, but not ideal.

The old Suzuki DRZ400S is still, IMO, probably the best of the bunch despite its old design. Suzuki reliability, not bad for luggage, simple to work on, inexpensive.

Others may argue for CCM, KTM 450, Husky 450 or BMW 450, I contend NONE are as good as the trusty old DRZ400S for traveling.

Also, don't forget the "other" middle weight bikes. The 650 class. Better highway ride, roomy and enough HP to cart luggage over 5K meters, true high speed cruising possible. (70 to 80 MPH) OK, but not great fuel economy. Great back road scratcher ... quite impressive off road if you do the proper mods to make them more off road worthy.

Many good bikes in the Mid size class: KLR650, XR650L, DR650, KTM 690, BMW Sertao or F650,
505 Husky, XT600 Yam, XT660 Tenere'. Of course, the DR650 is far and away the best of bunch for travel. :D:D:D (Yes, I own one! :rofl:)
bier

I think you're dead on here ... and I also feel the new Honda is going to be a really good bike. Too much at stake for Honda to screw this up. Legacy!

I'd call the AT (If I'm even close in my predictions) as more like a 70/30 bike.
I think with some careful and well considered set up, it will ROCK off road.
So, if you want more off road ability from the bike it should be there to unlock with some changes.

It will be plenty smooth and fast ... and my guess? FUN! bier

well, for sure better then any 250cc and that was the meaning of my post. 660cc is too heavy already so imo 4500cc is the holly grail here. I believe we'll see that class soon to be very popular again once 1000cc bikes won't sell well as expected.

The obsession with capacity is its own problem. 60 HP in a 100 Kg bike is race performance but race service requirements and reliability. 80 HP in a 250 Kg bike is touring technology, hence you know about it when trying for MX track use. With new materials, electronic etc. 50 HP from 400 to 600cc in a 170 kilo bike may well be the compromise, but the demand is tiny, hence we get race engines like the one CCM are detuning to meet the perceived capacity requirement. There will be sleeved down monsters, over worked race tech and old 400 cc tax dodger designs given a tune up if all you demand is the same capacity as Dakar bikes.

What you want is the lightest 45 HP bike with a 10000 mile service interval they can design today.

Andy

Given its legacy, would anyone actually recommend taking the new AT on a ADV ride through Africa?

assuming you won't drop it yes :thumbup1:
but not without the winch...

https://www.warn.com/adventuretourin...reTouring1.jpg

The AT I am talking about was not a dummy bike but a dealer riding demo! :)

Agree. I may do Africa on an AT but it will certainly limit your options. For me due to riding skills! With respect to getting it into the hotel lobby, I dont think taking the AT into a lobby through the front door will be much more difficult than say a DRZ400( ;) ). It is not a GS1200 Adventure rinoceros sized bike. Size wize (width) the AT looks a lot like the XT660Z.

I get a kick out of people pretending that a 650 bike loaded down is somehow easy to get out of a mudhole or another bad predicament, it is not.

Your absolute best recourse is to avoid most of the pitfalls I see ADV riders falling into, regardless of bike.

Ride AROUND mud holes, if it requires getting off your bike and doing a little walking, do it. Same goes for soft sand and most other obstacles. I rarely see photographs of stuck bikes that cannot be avoided.


In the end, ride what you got, I wonder how many trips are ruined by people obsessing on finding the perfect ADV bike?

I think the greatest example of riding the last bike I would ever dream of riding RTW is Peter and Kay Forwood on their bagger Hog. Yet they traversed every single country on the planet on that behemoth.

Sjaak Luccassan has circumvented the world twice on sport bikes.

Of course the Legendary Sanders and his RTW on R1 Sportbikes how many times?

Ol Ray Git and his wife circumvented the world on a Tenere.

The KLR was mine, I had pulled off the road, put my foot down and the bank gave way, that was an absolute bear to get back up. Keep in mind I was raised on a ranch and can lift some crazy weight, it was everything I could do in that position to get it up without unloading it (the smart thing to do).

The bottom is Peter and Kay

with Sjaak and his R1

I must have done about 100 miles of gravel on this beast on my last trip. Can't say it was fun, but we both survived.

I feel like the Africa Twin will handle gravel roads better though! :)

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5602/...dd8c06e3_h.jpg

OK so got to play with the new At at my local dealer today. This is a cracking looking bike in white, Def a head turner.
The dash is easy to read and navigate something triumph and ducati could learn from. The switches are easy to reach with your thumbs and unlike triumph and ducati well made and robust.
It will be a sod to keep clean though. It will need some sort of locking nut device for the tool kit as this is on the side of the bike being accessed by an Allen key.
The build quality looks good close up, if they get the reliability right then I can see it selling like hot cakes. Went next door and then had a close look at a ktm 1050, sorry no contest :oops2:
Obviously a test ride is needed but this bike is Def a possible replacement for my fjr in a couple of years.

I'm pretty much sold on it from reviews I must say. They're not available to test ride in the US yet, so if I want it early enough this year to take it on a trip I think I'm going to have to pre-order without a test ride.

I know a lot of people don't trust bike reviews, with the argument being how easy is it to be unbiased while the manufacturer is plying you with free drinks, vol-au-vents and paid adverts for your magazine. But even so, the press reaction to this bike has been glowing to say the least.

I'm also realizing that comparing it to a 1200cc adventure bike with a 19/17 wheel combination isn't comparing like with like. It's actually a more direct competitor to the BMW F800GS and Triumph Tiger 800 XC. Similarly priced, similar power. The AT is heavier than those bikes, but according to reviews has that weight centralized better. The AT also has the DCT gearbox that reviews say make off road riding near fool proof. And I suspect (though am awaiting dyno comparisons in the magazines to confirm) that the AT produces more power down low and in the mid-range than those bikes.

So, I'm sold! Deposit going down soon I think.

If it helps the staff at my local dealer whose opinions I trust really rate this bike, their initial allocation has already sold out. This bike is Def on my list as my next bike, it looks fantastic and I think it will be a future classic. Wasnt too keen when I saw it at the bike show but now I have had time to look at it on my own it is a cracking bike and I dontvthink you will be disappointed. Honda have to get this right and I think they have. Lucky you....... Best buy the white one though :innocent:

The BMW G650X range is a cracking bike that comes very close to the ideal RTW bike. 10.000Km service interval, very good on fuel and plent oompf for what it weighs (around 155 Kg wet) It does need some work though like the an extra tank and some suspension work.

I love the look of the new AT but I'd hate the weight of it every minute I was handling the bike.
My next bike (if I'd need one) could well be the coming AJP PR7.

If i see an ADV bike I like, I try and tilt it upright from the side stand with one hand on the LH end of the handlebars. It gives me a good indication of why I shouldn't bother with that particular bike. :innocent:

I nearly bought an X Challenge. Rode it and was NOT impressed. Heavy feel to it, very poor suspension (soft front, harsh rear). That Bladder rear suspension is hazardous to your health doh ... and considerable expense$$$ to change it out for conventional shock absorber. The front too needs help, IMO. Way out of balance with rear. Now add fitting a larger fuel tank. PITA IMO.

Power was not impressive either, this getting straight off my DR650 (40 HP) and right onto the X Challenge ... which was a LIKE NEW example with about 3000 miles on the clock. Would not loft front wheel in 1st gear under power.
My DR does it in 1st and 2nd gear, power only, no clutch.
https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/M...P1010485-L.jpg

I had the cash in my pocket and positively LOVED the look of that BMW! ... had to tell seller I just could not do it. Did not feel right to me.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-m..._j8R4R-O-2.jpg
A striking beauty ... but just did not measure up to my Suzuki ... not even close.

Then I saw this ... and that pretty much put me off the X series bikes:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_...2/IMG_5492.jpg
Here we see an X Country, broke swing arm riding very mild sand Whoops in
Mojave desert.

So sad, BMW could have dominated the segment with just a few more years
of R&D (and stealing 40 years of Japanese development).

They did exactly this with their S1000RR sport bike (based 100% on Suzuki GSXR1000) followed by massive R&D work, BMW have made it the worlds BEST sport bike! Could have done the same with X series bikes. doh

Better test is to lay the bike in its side ... flat ... now try lifting. :oops2:
I like the new AT as well ... a beauty. But certainly won't be a "True" dirt bike, won't do what an AJP will do off road. But perhaps the AT is enough of a compromise to work for most travelers? Could you go two up on a AJP? Or CCM? Trade offs. bier

This would have been a great idea at the NEC, but all the new ATs were secured to the floor better than my house! The Honda guy I spoke with wasn't keen when I mentioned weight, and classed the NC700X and CB500X bikes as mid weight off road bikes doh. Even with the RR kit, the 500 is hardly much lighter than my 800, and my bike has more power for my every day riding. I'd asked him about the possibility of a mid weight AT.

It basically weighs the same as an R1200GS. I appreciate it's probably way more reliable :innocent:, but that's just a bit too much for me. The main reason I went for my F800 over the 12 was due to weight. Just moving the damn thing around the garden, let alone riding off road!

At the moment, I think I'll stick with my current bike. Having upgraded the suspension and improved the seat (amongst other things), there doesn't seem to be any need to change.

I did say to the Honda gent that I really hope the new ATs sell well; if this is the case, it only adds to the commercial viability of 'adventure' bikes, and who knows what might appear in the future? :welcome:

Get your order in soon, they will sell out almost certain. You will probably get the bike by April/May according to internet gossip. Go For It! bier

Certainly some truth in this. bier AT has gotten unusually positive reviews. As a former moto journalist (20 years with City Bike, San Francisco) I attended many bike intro events, all over USA and even Europe.

I suggest readers here not take too seriously any initial launch reviews ... they are almost ALWAYS GOOD. This true for nearly any bike!
Even the Triumph Bonneville America (which I loathed) got favorable reviews after it's launch attended by 60 moto journos in Georgia, USA. (Triumph USA, headquarters)

The US mag guys were laughing, making rude comments about the bike ... and stunting it for fun when Photogs were not around. Yet ... NOT ONE OF THEM wrote a harsh review of a bike they clearly thought was a joke. Last laugh on us ... the bike sold well for Triumph! doh (I gave a somewhat negative review as our mag are not fans of Cruiser wannabe bikes) So here, your point is well taken, but they never trash anyone, running ads or not.

I would also state that moto journos are not paid off, nor coerced into writing favorable reviews or pressured by bosses. Sorry boys, just does not work that way. Bikes are generally SO GOOD ...it's really down to personal taste, riding style and demographics. And NO POINT in trashing a bike ... this hurts everyone. Constructive criticism is better.

But the knives will come out once the new Africa Twin is put into the pit with other class competitors. Then you'll find out stuff that's wrong that no one is talking about now. There are always problems, nit picks and complaints. Happens with any bike and once 4 or 5 guys get to work, they'll find plenty to criticize.

Hopefully nothing to serious or unrepairable will come up. Honda are generally good with 1st year models. Sure, the wise rider would wait 3 to 5 years for the first major up grade to happen. But who wants to wait that long? :innocent:

For years Vstrom owners hoped and prayed Suzuki would quickly do an major redesign of the Vstrom. Took about 8 years to happen. :thumbdown:
(PS: I told the project leaders at Suzuki to PLEASE do an ADV version of the Vstrom. They looked at me like I was from Mars. This in 2004 at Wee Strom intro.) Am I prescient? No, it's just they never leave their cubicles. :offtopic:

:thumbup1: I believe the Honda AT will blow all those bikes out of the water in terms of off road capability/crash survival, ease of maintenance and general price of upkeep. (PS: The XC Triumph has a 21" front ... does not help ... still scary to ride off road, IMO)
bier

I wonder how many pictures there are of BMW 1200 GS's circling the www with broken rear swing arms, broken final drives/gearboxes etc. Still doesn't stop people buying them. I think there is one or possibly two cases where the swing arm on an X bike broke which down to a faulty suspension set up. Give such a thing to a rider who has no idea about odd noise/movements in the bike and disaster is pre-progammed.
The front doesn't lift very easily on a Challenge because of the rear shock. I had that airshock for a while but I could live with that although I now have a proper shock on it.
Just look at some RR's of people using them to go RTW. There's hardly anything that goes wrong with these bikes and there is virtually nothing to compare them with.

"nothing to compare them with" ? Really? :rofl: (think about that one!)
Sure, some good stories of RTW rides on X bikes and broke swingarm is Rare, indeed! bier

Colebatch is most famous X bike rider I know of. But even his $$Big Money$$ custom X Challenge has had numerous engine and other components rebuilt several times. (Lots of his custom work done in Holland at Hot Rod factory) A Nice Bike, but not typical of X bikes out there and one few could ever hope to build or afford.

The Kymco (Taiwan) made motor is good, and would only have got better had BMW stuck with its development. Rotax did original design, good then but quite old now. (DR650, KLR, XR650L, XT600 all around 20 years old too! doh )

I believe some X bikes have the bad water pump seal issue that other F and G single BMW's had (have) (also made by Kymco)

TOO TRUE, GS12's have more final drive failures ... and as you say ... riders still buy them! I love riding the R1200GS :thumbup1: ... just would not own one. :nono: (can't afford one either!)

But this illustrates my point: Had BMW stayed behind the X bike line and continued R&D with them, I contend they could have had a world class bike dual sport/travel bike. They only manufactured the bike for what, two or three years?

Even so, I'd sooner ride long distance on an old X bike than ANY KTM single, new or old. But neither are as good (or as good value) as my Suzuki DR650. Honda XR650L, Yam XT660 and Kawi KLR650 also good value travel bikes. Cheaper to buy and run than any BMW. Sorry, just the way it is. Maybe in EU they're cheaper? :innocent:

But if the X bikes were still in production I'd certainly be looking closely at one now. BMW have the ability to make a bike as good as they wish. It's a shame what happened to the X bikes under an incompetent management, made decision to cancel the bike. :oops2: Mistake, IMO.

Remember, the Japanese have been hard at work making dual sport and dirt bikes since the 1960's. They've won countless championships in ALL classes, world wide for 50 years. What have BMW won? :blushing:

Japanese big 4 have won dozens of Motocross, Enduro, Cross Country and Road Racing championships in the last 50 years.
What was BMW doing all this time?

BMW are relative new comers to any sort of serious, long term racing. They never made dirt bikes (save one year for G450), never raced off road save one world enduro season and a few Dakar races and never showed any interest whatsoever in true off road capable dual sport bikes ... except for the X with very halfhearted attempts with F and G bikes.

The Japanese have produced HUNDREDS of different dual sport models going back to 1960's, from 50cc to 800cc (DR Big). From kids bikes to full on factory race bikes ... and are still producing them TODAY. They've done it all. For 50 years.

Sorry, I don't consider R80, R100 or any GS as "off road capable" ... I'd sooner ride a 30 year old Honda XL500 then any BMW in serious off road conditions.

But ... BMW DO make good travel bikes. :D

But racing is what brings technology forward ... and that is why the Japanese lead. The corporate arrogance of BMW is unbelievable, always amazed me. (we have another word for it :censored:)

I dono, the RR I read even with the bavarian 650 seem to have problems, bad luck? I suppose as even the venerable KLR has had it's share of oddities in the middle of no where. I do agree with Molly, overall do to the Japs vast experience you will end up with something solid, while BMW seems to depend more on it's lifestyle sales tactic.:palm:

Oh, now I understand where X challenge name come from doh


p.s.
BTW BMW has I guess the best marketing department in the world, because they are still leading in the adventure bike segment despite of such evidence....

Whilst my head tries not to be affected by looks, my heart loves the white/blue and gold rims, especially with a DCT box.

I think the AT will clean up against the 800cc bikes and will impact 1200cc sales as well. All very positive for us as it forces other manufacturers to improve their game.

Sales, you could convince the public that Plutonium was good for them they would buy it, just create a lifestyle. Do you really think that HD are great amazing bikes? I mean keeping with 50 year old designs and the cheapest shocks money can buy they still dominate the Market as the "Merican Freedom Machine"
Nothing more.
BMW has been absolutely brilliant in their marketing, thus why they dominate the adventure Marketing category. They have made sure their bikes are part of Iconic Adventure Movies, from Resident Evil to the Charlie Ewan Star Wars guys nonsense films they sold it famously. They then have their "Beat your BMW to death" contests which are a win win for them. Not only are they pushing the bikes and exposing them as something amazing to the public, they get the people dingy enough to bash the hell out of their bikes they also sell their parts or as I used to do when sellign cars, convince someone who had a broken down car why it was a good Idea to spend thousands more on a new one.

KTM parallel twin 800 spied | MCN

I agree ... and others are already responding. The old link for the KTM above could come in a variety of sizes (600, 700 or 800cc P-Twin). Of course it will be more $$$$$ than a BMW, so who knows you will buy it. doh

Kawi has a nice potential ADV bike in the Versys 650. Yam could transform their 700cc P-Twin FZ-07 to ADV as well. Yam's IMO, has most potential. Time will tell.

Also, Honda themselves are broadening their coverage of the segment as the
CB500X is looking more and more "adventurous" every year. (see new '16 version)

IMO, if Honda were smart, they'd invest in a super light, better performing CB500X. Might put Jmo's Rally Raid company out of business, but would be an interesting bike if they do it right ... MAKE IT LIGHT! (but lightweight = $$$$$)
bier

As noted in my post, BMW shown is an X Country, not X Challenge. But nearly same bike in swingarm area.

BMW are not leading any more, KTM have overtaken them, and continue to pull away. Look at the numbers.

But both KTM and BMW are tiny players compared to Honda in overall motorcycle market.

Ouch - there's a guy over at ADVrider whose frame broke in several different places. Pretty unforgivable from BMW really.

There's probably dozens of guys on ADV Rider that've broke frames or whatever.
It's not just BMW but I do believe they are leaders in this area:oops2:!

But KLR's break sub frames and rack bolts and even main frame. Honda's XR650L's and XL all had weak sub frames (I owned TWO that bent). No data on XT's, TTR's or 660's. Even Suzuki has had a couple guys break frames.

But for BMW's, there's plenty of data showing lots of breakage among GS's owners going back 20 years, even back to Helge Pederson's bike ... remember? He had to make his own drive shaft in Argentina! doh But mostly with GS's it's final drive, sometimes swing arms give up or frames. But it's mostly because guys are riding OVERLOADED bikes too fast in too harsh conditions.
A few pics of more broken bikes:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-F...Ic42/047-L.jpg
My fav ... KLR ridden too fast in Baja. The guy had frame temp welded back together, rode back to US, bought another salvage KLR, transferred everything over ... and went back to Mexico to continue his LD ride! bier

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y...Ic42/bike1.jpg
Lots of threads about this issue ... F650 (and some G650's) broke off front forks. One German guy sued and got paid from BMW, other law suits rumored.
DOZENS of documented cases of forks broke off. (Showa forks are CLEARLY under spec'd for this 400 lbs. bike! So not Showa's fault, bike should have a least a 43mm fork)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S...45_ohYkh-L.jpg
Too fast for conditions.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-x...enR1200GSA.jpg
Broke final drive caused crash ...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-e.../JokeTilt2.jpg
Simple final drive oil change! :rofl: (just a joke folks!)

come, you should rather look at the numbers - I'm talking about adventure bikes not general motorcycle. Honda didn't have any new, real adventure bikes until now.

Depends how we define "Adventure Bike". IMO, Honda has been building variations of Adventure bikes since the 1960's. We didn't call our "Dual Purpose" bikes "Adventure Travel" bikes back then, but we certainly had many adventures riding them.

Sometime in the late 1990's the Media woke up to ADV bike movement (very late to the party, as expected) ... and then used BMW's GS as their standard by which to judge all others.

So moto media largely dictated to us what Adventure bikes are meant to be ... and by that measure ... you are 100% correct.
But honestly, what do most of those kids know? :cool4:
How many are dirt riders with 50 years experience?

I contend the Honda XR650L is every bit the Adventure bike any BMW GS is or ever was. With the right modifications the XR650L makes an excellent travel/adventure bike. Better than any BMW GS new or old. Why? It's more reliable, is a real dirt bike and if set up right, you can travel on one. I know ...
I owned one in 1992. :palm:

My favorite BMW "Adventure Bike" would be a heavily modified HPN built R80GS. Just my opinion. GS bikes got worse and worse for off road after the R80, the only BMW GS truly off road capable when ridden by mere mortals.

Original R80 retained WW2 technology ... some good, some not. The Electrics were 30 years behind the Japanese ... and they made very low HP, used oil and did generally the things Jap bikes do not do.

In 1981, 1st year for R80GS, the bike had a Varta Volkswagen battery and the system could not keep it charged. The electrics were late WW2 tech as was drive shaft and Panzer spec gear box. But it was fairly light and strong, rode well overall. (yes, I owned one)

The modern GS's are wonderful ... to ride ... as long as the trail does not get too rough. I love them, ridden thousands of miles on test bikes ... I just don't want to be around when the warranty is finished and something major breaks down. $$$$$$ :smartass:

But in terms of large CC ADV bikes, correct, Honda has not built a multi cylinder off road style bike since the last 1st generation A.T. in ... what? 2003 or so?

But clearly, bikes need not be 1000cc or bigger to qualify as ADV bikes.
bier

Yes there is the BMW big headedness, I agree fully on that.
BMW is not alone in that though.

Cheers, Ard

What facts are you confused about? Links? What specific questions do you have?

You misunderstand.
BMW's water pump seals have failed often and at random ... over and over again ... even at low kms. Common knowledge in BMW community (Chain Gang, F650 thread on ADV Rider ext)

Once water pump seal fails, you can loose you're entire engine if you don't catch it soon enough. :nono: Was a problem for YEARS ... BMW never fixed it. :thumbdown:
I think you should talk to Maria 41 and her husband! :rofl:

Always room for development. Ask ANY mechanical engineer/designer. There are some GOOD things on X and F bikes. Fuel economy on F bikes is very good :thumbup1: But too many poor engineering and planning choices, IMO.

Short list of weak items with F, G and X bikes that should be made better:
1. Suspension. Ditch rear bladder shock on X series. On F and G bikes the skinny front forks are WRONG for a 450 lb. bike. Up grade to at least 43mm fork. Low level WP shocks should be higher level pieces.
2. F and G too heavy, even X could be lighter if further development had continued. The F and G bikes are 70 lbs. heavier than my DR650 and XR650L.
Why? Because BMW never intended these bikes to set foot off road.
Road use only. Yet that is not how they market them. So ... ALL BS.
3. Should be more maintenance/owner friendly. As you say, they are HARD to work on. (I've worked on F bike) They are a PITA to do anything on.
4. Redesign elec. system. Many reports of failed Regulator/Rectifier, over charged, boiled out batteries. Poor charging system, BMW used a NON sealed battery. doh :oops2:

Read the Chain Gang forum for a few years like I did .. dozens of problems.

Serious? :rofl:
Maybe you don't understand engineering? Do you remember what Soichiro Honda said about the value of racing? It's like putting a man on the Moon. Everyone benefits from what is learned.

From 50cc kid's bikes to Moto GP winners to Formula One ... even to Honda's Jet aircraft. All racing's lessons trickle down to every aspect of production.
Racing brings out the best, most innovative solutions and then TESTS them under the harshest conditions. Pushes technology forward. We've known this FACT 100 years. Nothing new. Racing is essential to smart evolution.

Have you seen the new BMW G310? BMW designed, Indian made, 310cc.
BMW claim a "GS" version with be forthcoming, initial bike is standard bike.
34 HP, 350 lbs.
Check it out!
New BMW G310R roadster revealed | MCN

but we know by now landing on the moon was a hoax... :sailor:

Well, I'll just give up here.
There is no point in convincing internet warriors who have all the right/wrong info at their fingertips.
My knowledge comes from actual facts as I've owned and worked on all the single cilinder F and G bikes up to replacing engine internals where I had to split the casings. (that was because of the over engineered shifter on the X btw)

I just wonder why the DR and whatever else are still being sold today, the way they were designed umpteen years ago ? Those are the makes that do compete in all those races where they get their "man on the moon" right ?
Never mind. I'm out of this topic.

keepcalm

Stubbsie's new Africa Twin Road Test 2016

Real people are getting test rides, and not on Beemers - the latter are always a toxic subject in the HUBB, even when in the pub and :offtopic:

Yeah, it maybe a community but there's always the one you don't want as a neighbour.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

New Africa Twin (I don't get it)
 

Wow that looks AMAZing! I'm looking for a decent lightweight bike as bigger, heavy bikes just don't appeal to what Motorcycling is all about (to me anyway), but I see there are very few options. Like the KTM 390 but very $$$. Suzuki make a 250 twin - the Inazuma, but it's 401lb! what else? Ninja 300 is too sporty, (wasn't the 250 one of the best selling bikes in the US?), then the Yamaha 250 YBR or the Honda equivalent. In the sixties and seventies there seemed to be loads of range sub-650cc, but then seemingly at some point, 650 become to be the benchmark for a "proper" motorcycle. I hope that BMW have a big success with that and the big four follow suit.

Some photos of the Africa Twin from the Motorbike Festival in BKK, Thailand, 27 Jan 2016

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1653/...bba80d0c_c.jpgUntitled by Wayne 66, on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1669/...751aa62e_c.jpgUntitled by Wayne 66, on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1575/...8a18e9c0_c.jpgUntitled by Wayne 66, on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1441/...d2295b05_c.jpgUntitled by Wayne 66, on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1616/...3c386c34_c.jpgUntitled by Wayne 66, on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1521/...57a42982_c.jpgUntitled by Wayne 66, on Flickr

The price is about 10.5 to 11K (GBP)

Wayne

I bought one and it's bloody brilliant

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Probably the best big bore adventure bike of the moment. Simple design. Reliable. Huge Honda dealers network around the world. Runs on regular fuel. Ultra efficient engine. Runs cool. Rims use tubes. Superb handling. Easy to ride.

The original Africa Twin set a standard in 1988. 28 years later, the new Africa Twin sets a new standard.

thoughts on AT so far
 

Hi
I'm currently riding my AT DCT through Mexico having risen from New York.I am heading into south america. The bike is great and the weight and balance of the machine is good. My previous bike was the Honda Crosstourer - now that was heavy and totally unsuited to any mucky stuff.
I think I will be in a place to confirm its advantages once i hit the serious stuff in the jungles of Costa Rica and South America.
It does travel well on the road and offload the DCT is a great help - one less thing to think about if you are inexperienced like me!

Africa Twin - Riding with Queenie
 

I bought my AT DCT a few months ago. 2 days later I got 100% knee replacement. So, Feb. sees me riding on the street again. Hopefully the dirt is not to far off.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DT2-k1k7rW0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EgFf0q3On6I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pJJbjrIbVOw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXmN8Qkz2BY

africa twin
 

OK ................. lots of talk about this bike !... just like an american forum !
You have to ride a new bike for a few thousand miles to judge it... not around asda car park !

I have done 15000 miles on mine and................... it allways puts a smile on my face !

and ........... as for off road...........what do you call off road ?
It wont go where a wr250 will go... but it will take you to morocco and do most of the piste there !!!

GREAT BIKE:Beach:

if you're planning to travel with this bike, think again.



that's ridiculous from honda.

Have to agree, not smart of Honda to mount that HUGE top box hung way out the back like that. Just about any sub frame is going to crack or bend when off road with that configuration. Add weight, not a good outcome.

Best to move your load forward onto pillion area, or better yet, keep heavy stuff in side panniers. Basic RTW bike loading 101.

Many travelers overload their top box ... most boxes are only rated to carry 10 or 12 lbs. max.

Now, if you head down some bad wash board, whoops or hit big pot holes, the mounting hardware, subframe are bound to fail in time (short time!).

Most experienced travelers know all this as top box mounts and pannier racks have been a major issue for MC travelers since the 70's. (Ask Grant, owner of HU!)

Hard top boxes and hard side panniers do not mix well with super rough conditions. Off road? Go to soft panniers, travel light. The new Africa Twin is a fine travel bike in many ways, but it's not a Dakar bike or a pure dirt bike. Used in more moderate off road conditions (is set up correctly) it will be fantastic. Less complex and more reliable long term than either
BMW GS or Big KTM. Decent comfort on road, simple servicing, packs up well. A winner IMO. bier

Looking at that I can't help but wonder how many miles it would be before the pillion load would result in a similar issue while riding 2up? It would put me off buying one for sure. Not that I am even considering it.......

g6snl -Tim

Horses for courses, and riders too.


Me? I prefer lighter bikes. Simpler. Less electronics. I'm 5'10 and 165 lbs. I'd never think of buying a 1200GS, AT or S10. Or an Explorer, Multi 1200 or any of the other techno-barges.


If I can't pick it up, I ain't riding it.

That's not great at all. You should indeed expect better from Honda.

I'm picking up my new AT very soon, and I was quite anxious about how far back the top boxes (from every company) are. I have bought one (Givi), but have no intention of using it whilst travelling off road, just for my commute. Companies are obviously aware there could be an issue, as I went for a Givi extra support bracket for the top box 'frame' that better supports the box. It's designed for better off road support, but I thought it would be useful for on road! To add to the whole situation, all the top boxes seem to have a 10kg weight limit. I've never really paid attention to other manufacturers - perhaps they're all around the same limit?

Anyway, off road I'm putting my roll bag ON the passenger seat! :mchappy:

what is even worse honda puts videos and pictures like that on their websites confusing people what they can do with their bikes:

http://www.adventurebikerider.com/me...nts/8962/m.jpg

There is even honda promo video with AT jumping in air with top boxes doh

Wow, that pic above really tells all. Absurd to hang that box way off the rear like that. No way will it hold up off road. It will break in a day of hard riding. Been there, seen it happen on other bikes.

For Endurodude,

I think the box should be fine for commuting on road. I used similar on my Tri Tiger, though it was hung off the back, it wasn't as radical
as the new Africa Twin is.

Also had a hard box on my former Vstrom. Never took it off road as it was obvious it would break.

Honda could be in for some legal trouble given the ads showing the bikes used
as essentially Dakar race bikes, doing jumps, riding rough, rocky terrain. I see possible big settlements for owners in future.

Honda need to write a disclaimer stating the reality of the poor design and cop to it's unsuitability for off road use. :nono:

But other than this glaring fault ... the Africa Twin still seems to be the best of the big ADV bikes, best value.

Me? WR250R in my future. Meantime, my DR650 will do just fine, thanks!
bier

1 year review
 

My AT is now one year old and approaching 20kkm. Back in March 2016 I posted a comparison review between it, my old AT and my Varadero after the first few thousand kms. Reviewing what I said, I still concur/agree with most of what I said then, but with a few provisions

The good:

1. The Honda dealership issues seem to have been solved and the availability of spares have greatly improved.
2. After much procrastination and swearing, we rebuild the standard AT shock with a custom spring, revalving and oil. The suspension is now great and I have no more fading issues. Changed the character of the bike completely
3. Although the front mud-guard is still a flimsy piece of crap IMO, there is now a decent high-fender kit available from Camel which includes braided breaklines etc. So if mud-clogging is a potential issue, this would solve it.

The bad:

1. Fuel range is still an issue. My bike seems to have 'settled' on around 18-19km/l for the urban cycle, but I still struggle to get more than 350km/tank. 280-320km seems about the norm with mixed off-road riding, but extended sand riding sees <200km. Camel makes a bolt-on tank that looks really well, but it won't fit all luggage systems and IMO is expensive for what it is. Despite Safari's promises, their tank is still not available (3 months late now). For most the standard range would probably suffice, but for those used to GS-equivalent tanks/range this is a pain. Currently I need to carry a 7.5l Rotopax as well as a fuel bladder for my riding. Hmmmm....
2. Honda accessories for the bike is expensive, and maybe not as good as the aftermarket alternatives. This includes things like the heated grips, the luggage as well as the crash protection. Luckily about every duck and whistle out there are now offering accessories so options seem almost limitless.

So I worked on some of the things that bothered me and what I felt I 'needed' and my list of mods to the standard bike include:

• Knobbie tyres
• Modded front mudguard
• Adjustable/higher screen
• Honda high seat
• PivotPegz
• Honda centrestand
• Teknik modded suspension
• Halogen spotlights (250m reach)
• Holan Pro crashbars (will probably not pick them again if I have to redo)
• Honda Heated grips
• Honda auxiliary power socket, as well as aftermarket
• Barkbuster handguards
• Home made pannier rack and hard luggage system
• RR topplate (carrier extension)
• KTM folding mirrors
• Rotopax container carriers
• Force bashplate (had to be modded to work with the centrestand)
• Other little home made guards (e.g. heat guard over the DCT cover where I keep burning my leg when I ride in shorts)
• Givi quick-lock 15l tank bag
• Baggs Connection/RAM Smart phone carrier
• Garmin 60 GPS (RAM)
• Unifilter pre-filter socks
• GPR can (you know- for the bark :innocent:)

Future mods include (when I can afford it or have time)

• Bigger fuel tank - Either Safari if its finally available and what I like, or a homemade tank to suit my luggage system similar to the Camel system
• Tubeliss tyre conversion - bought the Outex kit and just waiting for new rubber before I fit it
• Allu skid plates for the crashbars (when the bikes falls in sand so the crashbars don't just dig in)
• Steering damper

Some little issues I had to fix over the year:

• Sidestand bent and was replaced under warranty
• Micro-switch on the park brake was damaged in the 1st big'ish' off I had. I simply disconnected it because it only activates a light on the dash and I never use the park brake anyway. I'm actually thinking of using the circuit for another indicator
• Small oil leak on the DCT system. Honda 'fixed' it but its still there
• Some corrosion issues - rust was repaired on the frame under warranty, but things like the exhaust heat guard is badly tarnished
• Had to replace a couple of the small plastic clips that keep all the panels together

So as you can see, I had to spend quite a bit on getting the new AT to where my old AT was (and in some cases its not there yet). But that said, this is by far the easiest big bike I've ridden off-road. So much so that I ended up selling my old AT after almost two decades of traveling over 200kkm on various continents. For those who know me, this was a BIG step and says a lot of my faith in the new AT as a replacement.

And the bike sure puts a smile on my face every time I ride it.

Someone wrote the new AT is the Glock of the motorcycle world. Cheap to buy and ticks most boxes. But, what you save on the purchase price, you are likely to lose on the spares and accessories. If you are a budget traveler (no offense meant) - stick to the old AT. But if you are looking for more horsepower, are tired of the 19" front wheel brigade, want something more reliable than a KTM and have the money to spend - the new AT might just be what you need :mchappy:

and here what I have most problems with new AT. IMO it's not that cheap at all
for what you have to spend to make it usable and even then it will never be as durable and crashable as old AT. Honda cut corners in too many places.

Gonna wade in here even though I'm not an offroad rider... when I bought my VFR800, it had a Givi rack on the back. Added a Givi top box. After a multiday tour, saw that it had cracked. Went online, found out that it's very common. Got a replacement rack from Kappa (for those who don't know - same company, interchangeable, but cheaper and no marketing), and it came with reinforcements already welded on, plus brackets to attach it to the pillion grab-rail mounts. (Did tens of thousands of KM after that, including at high speed, no issues.)

I'd been annoyed that the Givi rack for the VFR was cantilevered that far, but now I'm thinking it might be a good idea - have the rack as the sacrificial point. Cheaper to replace and easier to weld back together than the subframe.

And for on-road riding at least, I like to practice the principle that the topbox is not for packing - it's for leaving my helmet, gloves and tankbag while I'm walking around off the bike.

I think the Africa Twin is now dead
 

It is now 2017 and the choices are so wide with more coming that the Africa Twin is dead in my humble opinion. Its weight and price with the items needed to make a trip puts it in the BMW GS, KTM 1190 ans 1290 Adv, Yamaha Tenere etc class. Good for easy offroad, but far too heavy and pricey to be useful for narly stuff offroad.

The BMW 800 GS, Triumph 800 and KTM 1090R and KTM 790R and Yamaha and Honda Rally bikes, which is coming, is all better, lighter, also has 20 inch front and is so much more exiting to ride.

I wonder how Honda could get it so wrong. Everybody was telling them to make a 150-170 road bike with 100 HP They made a bike which gives 80 HP at the back wheel and weighs 220 kg or more.

It is a good thing we can pick for ourselves.

It is indeed. Speaking personally, I think the new AT is more of a half way house between the F800 et al and the 1200GS / various large KTMs from a cc/bhp point of view. Admittedly, weight's nearer 1200GS. I also agree that 'narly' off road's probably not really in the design brief for this bike, at least not when loaded up. Off road, yes, but not what others here would refer to as more 'hard-core' (not my favourite phrase!).

Having said this, I pick mine up next week. I've lost interest in BMW fir a variety of reasons. I wouldn't go for a 1200 due to size and fuel economy. :thumbdown: I was also happy to get rid of my F800GS. I really enjoyed that bike, right up until I got fed up of paying between £1k and £1.5k a year in both servicing costs coupled with fixing issues. It only had 44k miles on it, so issues were only going to get worse and more expensive. I'm going to be paying £21 a month for servicing and, being a Honda, hopefully £0 fixing issues.

I really enjoyed test riding the AT. That, coupled with the above costing issues, means I'm going to thoroughly enjoy the AT. That, for me, is the point of the AT.

As has been said, it's a good thing we can pick for ourselves. Long live freedom of choice! :thumbup1:

Congrats on the new Africa Twin. bier

Comparison tests suggest the Africa Twin is a better handler than both F800GS and Tiger 800.

The AT is about the same weight as the R1200GS, but reports say it rides MUCH lighter, is more secure and more confidence inspiring off road. The rougher it gets the further the Honda pulls away from the BMW GS. The GS R12 may be the better road bike (I loved it on road!) but like you, will not pay BMW service prices ever again.

I do believer the Africa Twin will be a bike where the owner can self service many things on the bike. On the electronics heavy GS? :oops2:

I'll put my money behind the Honda for long term reliability and low cost servicing. WIN WIN for Honda.

The Honda is also less money to buy than ANY of the Euro bikes of similar size ... and less than the 1200 Tenere' as well, IIRC.

Good luck with new bike ... safe riding! :scooter:

out of these two (tiger 800 and f800gs) I agree, honda wins hand down in reliably and off-road capability. Easy servicing? not really. You cannot even access battery easily on AT, same air filer just to name a few.

EXACTLY what I though when I first saw this image :-)


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So what is going to happen with a pillion riding on rough 'off-TARMAC' roads? This is WORRYING.


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Maybe the answer is to use proper pannier side frames and then add a brace from below the rear carrier to the back of the pannier frame. This would give a VERY strong triangulated frame and keep the top box rigid.


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no, the answer is not to use top box off-road. (or pillion for that matter)

This could work if conditions are not too severe. Washboard roads are a killer to racks and subframes. Good news is a cracked frame is easy to Weld up.

On my DR650 is use soft bags with racks that are under NO stress. (they only serve to keep soft pannier off pipe and out of wheel) The panniers are throw over type, so the SEAT takes the shock, not sub frame or pannier racks. Works pretty well for me, 60K miles.

Also, soft bags don't explode into a million pieces when they hit the ground.
Many hard bags get bent up, will no longer close up and may not sit correctly on the pannier rack.

Lots of options here. I'd look to what other Africa Twin guys are doing. Make sure you follow guys who do truly OFF ROAD RIDING with pillion.
bier

Yes I completely agree (sorry to my pillion riding wife), but for those who will have a top box, it will help.
Personally I'd only ever put my rain gear and helmet in there, but I'd still want to stop it bouncing around.


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