‘Motorcycle detection system’ on roads by Easter (UK)
 

Any thoughts?

C*NTS.

xxx

the purpose of such a system totally escapes me...i don't get it?? why would they want/need to track motorcyles? what about delivery vans, hybrid vehicles, or 1960s era VW beetles? the safety aspect sounds ridiculous, as you could probably ask any local policeman or ambulance crew member and get the same information...

exactly... it is prejudicial persecution, hence the tone of my initial reply.

Just because the technology is there and it's feasible doesn't mean they should do it... but then there is a lot of money in government contracts...

Surely if the sensors can detact a motorcycle, that ought to be enough for gathering 'statistics' - why the hell should they also record your numberplate, eh?

CCTV, Speed Cameras, National Databases... none of these things significantly curb criminal activity, or make the world a safer place - they are mearly used to control and oppress the innocent who comply... and we let this happen time and time again...

xxx

Simply because it has nothing to do with statistic gathering. Although our government is pretty much obsessed with statistics even though time and time again their statistics are proven wrong or inadequate.

What baffles me completely is that they are currently trying to push through a plan to put GPS devices in all vehicles for their tax by road plan. So why do you need sensors in specific locations when every vehicle will be monitored 100%

Seems to me like it is a stop gap, a small little step so that when it comes to getting the GPS thing confirmed they can say: "Well you know it isn't so different from what we do already so what is the big deal"

Summer of Rage this year huh? Maybe we can add one more thing to rage about. A huge organised vehicle protest on the streets of Britain. Not just bikes but cars and trucks too. Everyone who owns a vehicle is getting screwed slowly up the ass and we're doing nothing about it!

So lets get out there, rip the things out of the ground and throw the bits at any passing coppers until they have to call the army out. Trouble is, if you do, the great British public will be happy when you get thrown in jail and every politician in the country will rally round saying how much we love the cameras and then go off to develop a sex detecting radar so they can tax that as well.

We get the government we deserve.

Andy

At the moment this has got to be to expensive to be opened out beyond a trial area, more so with the current way the country is bleeding money. That said lets look at why someone somewhere in Government feels its cost effective and worth the bother - so start by looking at the percieved problem - On sunny sundays the part timers pour out of there wet weather hideaways dragging with them the latest model of race bike wearing the latest designer leather, helmet, sunglasses the loudest pipe on the bike and sandpapered off tyres edges and knee scrapers - they then ride without care for themselves or anyone else making loads of noise, racing everyother race rep on the already crowded roads pushing in overtakes on blind bends and summits cross over solid white lines and generally being arses. After the 30 mile blast a pose at some local coffee shop they go back the other way. The roads they use are often practiced like a race track so they feel they know every bit of the road (Thus the reason certain roads are targeted) often they push too hard and crash often badly - at huge costs to the NHS, and emergancy services not to mention the innocent person coming the other way - someone then has to pick up the pieces and go tell wife , kids mother, father your son /husband etc is dead / maimed. These riders bring about the complaints from the public and as a result the policing and Legislation which we percieve as predjudice. In actual fact policing is target led without a target its a non starter - this is simply targeting a problem just like that of Boy racers and drunks in city centres. ( where I live the boy racers in cars run a section of bendy road north of my village and there are crashes every week - sooner or later when they come round the bend backwards, sideways or just on the wrong side of the road they may take me or my son out as we ride to / from town its a real problem) The sooner these part time summer racers/riders went to a race track and payed for the track day then the motorcyclist in general would not be a viable /cost effective target for the government to focus on.
I am not saying not to ride with passion or quickly but there are places where its to obvious and too dangerous or inconsiderate - Sorry to sound so sensible but I see these arses out at weekends cutting me and everyone else up over the summer days they do bring the result of their actions onto all of us.

But how does monitoring them help the situation? It seems like a more robust police presence on these roads would be a better way of reducing the types of accidents that you're describing.

(Moto reiter if you have not been back to the UK in recent years you may not know of these nutters sometimes riding /racing in large groups travelling at spedds over 120/130mph sometimes a lot faster on short straight bursts on roads where 50/60 mph is the limit.)
However I have to agree ideally policing would be a better solution - but if the monitering brings up a time/day proven pattern then the very limited police traffic resources will be targeted at specific times and places. Also these systems will no doubt be cross matched to an enforcement system so the problem rider can be prosecuted entirely by the monitering system - with no police involved (Very bad in my opinion as there is no discretion or common sense applied by a machine)this is already happening to cars, vans , lorries but bikes so far have remained 'invisable' to the detection equipment.

I think the most worrying aspect of this is the implicit suggestion that biker=dangerous. By being singled out from other motorists they are lumping bikers together as homogenous unit.

I, personally, have no difficulty with speed cameras. This, however, is in a different league. What are the bets that the 'data' collected on these fast routes popular with sports bikers will 'prove' that bikers go too fast and have accidents? Therefore, bikers should clearly pay more vehicle tax...

It's yet another example of the government monitoring our (and by 'our' I mean everyone, not just bikers) every move. Little did I think, when Tony came into office, that I'd spend the next decade and a half watching my personal freedoms curtailed, my country's troops forced to fight an illegal war and the labour government encouraging exactly the same kind of corporate greed that Thatcher's minions believed in.

My only consolation is that I didn't vote for the xxxxxxs!

Matt :(

Matt, it was obvious from the start that 'Tony' was always able to turn in his own skin, I think Stalin looked more honest; and now ye gads - we have an accountant running the show - no wonder the countries on its knees.

A couple of years ago I spoke to a police officer on a police bike. I offered that I ride a '79 Le Mans. His reply, "We're not interested in guys like you". I read that in Sussex, a couple of years ago there were 5 things in common in fatal one bike crashes. Male, about 38-58 years old, Sunday afternoon, summer, race replica bike. I have my own answer to the situation. Sorry to be enigmatic but the answers left are not legal. Linzi, I am not a number.

I have to say, I never saw it. I didn't vote for him, but I did think "Well, he's got to be better than the status quo..." How wrong I was! :blushing:

Matt

Liberal
 

Hi Matt I'd say get a copy of Taking Liberties book, by Chris Atkins, £I5 from amazon. Essential reading I think. Linzi.

And then of course the insurance companies will demand access to the data so that they can charge "appropriate" rates or even deny coverage to people who ride too fast (even if they don't get in accidents).

Adventure950, I am not from the UK and have never experienced the groups that you describe. Nonetheless, I am sure that you don't need a highly intrusive monitoring system to "brings up a time/day proven pattern"--maybe try weekends? I mean, it's just not that complicated...

Will have a look at that, thanks.

On a general basis, it's all very well us whinging about the government on here. If people feel strongly about the above, the best thing they can do is write to their MP or the relevant cabinet minister. You can do this online using this excellent website:

WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free

In fact, I am always encouraging people to write to their MP, its one of the few ways we can hope to have a marginal influence on policy. MPs are essentially vote grubbers and if they think enough people care about a subject they will start to change their opinions. A letter is far more effective than signing a petition (too easy to make names up) or demonstrations (a lot of students, thugs and anarchists go on them for fun without caring about the subject matter). I try to write to an MP once a month or so. Go on, you know you want to!

Matt :)

See also this article about RFID tags on bikes to prevent tax evasion

1 ELECTRONIC VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION (EVI) FOR MOTORCYCLES Background



This sort of thing wouldn't be necessary if not for the anti-bike bias of law enforcment and government, and the small minority of idiots who flout the law in ways that exacerbate that anti-bike bias.

Motoreiter, Your quite right common sense should prevail, however we are dealing with a massive monolith of a government here whos whole sytem relies on statistics, creating beurocat jobs and applying statistics and figures to prove / disprove whatever they want or need to show. Think of it a bit like parts of the old soviet system I am sure this government took a lot of the ideas of government from the worst parts of that soviet system. We have constant monitering of every aspect of our lives - for the safety and security of the whole of our people - must sound familiar.
However the motorcycle problem does exist but our police forces are stripped to a bare minimum on the streets and are now pushed to the limit chasing statistics and targets that all come from a controlling central government. Like many areas NHS, POLICE, FIRE SERVICE, SCHOOLS etc the government trys to run everything once upon a time -Not too long ago all these services were ran independent of central government and were better for it.
Bye the way the insurance companies already load various bike premiums based on performance, accident statistics etc etc.

Was it Disreali who coined the phrase "Lies, damn lies and statistics." ?

Matt :)

The German system is to ban motorcycles from the problomatic roads at weekends.

Steve

First problem that springs to mind, assuming this is a scheme aimed at road safety, is that it invades the privacy of all motorcyclists purely to try and address the actions of a few.

I won't say that going for a mad blast is not dangerous, but not all those riders are going to be inept on the back of a powerful bike. This sort of strategy says that they are, including you, me and any other two wheeler out for the day.

I think that is wrong.

Technology can help in certain areas, but to my mind, instead of £100K this and £500K that, they should simply employ more police. They are far more qualified to evaluate the risks of given situation than a sensor buried under tarmac and they can move from one corner of the county to another unlike snsors buried under tarmac...

All this smacks of "La politique du saucisson".

Cooked sausage politics. What is that? Its an expression to lillustrate how one can keep cutting a thin slice of the sausage and munch away, then another slice , and then another, thinking there is plenty left. From one slice to the next its hard to tell its getting smaller.

Then, all of a sudden, that sausage is gone.

Now substitute "sausage" for "your right to privacy and the freedoms you take for granted".

These policies are doing the same thing. First "Safety" cameras, and CCTV, then tracking our movements overseas, and then these GPS systems, and now isolatiung particular groups. Each time such a move is made, the government waits until public opinion quietens down or something else grabs the fickle headlines and then we quietly start the next scheme.

Once all these systems are in place, for "safety" or anti-terror reasons, then it is so easy to change how they are used. By then its too late for the average joe on the street: welcome to Police State Britain....

Sounds meladramatic, and probably is, but I've long since stopped believing the reasons we are given for a particular policy.

The real motive is always another, IMO... Often revenue, but sometimes its more...

Personally i think its a load of rubbish dreamed up by a non-bikeing politician
If they want to improve bike road safety why not improve the level of training given and make the test more relevant to what bikers actually do how many of you go around town doing U-turns and slaloms. A better way would be to take new bikers to a track and teach them to handle a bike at speed (braking, posistioning and feeding on the power) then take them out on the road and show them how to apply their new skills to the road also teach them to overtake safely. Seen to many idiots overtaking on blind bends and crests recently now the weather is getting better. Then they should go through the low speed stuff.
Also a compulsory CBT for car drivers would make them more aware of bikes and how they handle
If they did this they wouldn't have to waste taxpayer money on a system that won't actually improve safety. Why do they need to know where the bikers have come from anyway, surely all they need to know is where popular bike routes are and then make them more bike friendly with safer barriers and improved road maintenance.

£100,000 is one consultant for maybe two months, or 20 consultants for a working week. They will have a powerpoint of maybe 6 pages, listing problems with no answers.

This isn't going anywhere for £100,000. Maybe for 10x this.

No2ID
 

Just got back from the local meeting of NO2ID.net . I am afraid, very afraid and I am not trying to be poetical or creative. Personally I want out, rid of my UK nationality and that's that. Linzi.

I wonder :confused1:

When they teach about George Orwell in English schools is it as
a warning or a goal. :oops2:

The day that happens will be the day I buy a non-UK registered bike. Seems to work for Eastern Europeans working over here.

Why not develop detectors for white van drivers? There is as many of them driving recklessly as there are bikers and the van is far more likely to be used for the purpose of committing a crime. Are they persecuted like we are?

I agree that there is a problem with the mid-life crisis brigade but this isn't the solution to the problem.

I had been non-objectional to the ID card issue but now I'm convinced they and other statistic gathering exercises have a hidden agenda.

Minor hijack
 

I was indifferent to the ID card when it was first proposed. Namely because, being a French citizen to I was used to the ID card used in France.

Not so anymore. Not because an ID card is a bad thing, but anytime that Whitehall say that something is to improve security, I am very wary. It seems like the buzz-word to get public opinion behind it, by preying on the fears of the masses. So ID card in the UK for security I think is a red herring.

Ironically, over here in Estonia, they have a very efficient and user friendly ID system which, frankly, is geared to the public. You can do virtually everything online using PINs and your ID card as digital signatures. It is so easy to use. It also double as your public transport "ouyster" card, library card.... you name it...

Why do I get the feeling such a system would fall flat on its face in the UK...?

Anyway, sorry.....:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:

Not much point in locking the stable door when horse has already bolted (English proverb).

Linzi, any thoughts you want to share with us from that meeting?

Moment Please
 

I'll get back with a link. I have been wondering how to make it thread relevant enough but that's easy. Soon we'll not be able to move freely minding our own business and I feel sure the days of motorcyles outside museums are coming to an end later rather than sooner. Linzi.

Delay
 

It could take time to find the link but in the next few weeks a lot of material is going before the house of commons and buried and camouflage in there is one innocent looking title which actually gives Govt the right to take any info on any UK person, share it with anyone they choose and this will happen unless the lethargic, sceptical public lifts a finger--it won't. This is for me too much. For the time being check out this morning's Guardian, slightly left wing newspaper: Fight against terror 'spells end of privacy' | UK news | The Guardian I am a level headed person but I simply don't like being stared at. Further, my NHS file contained the file of someone else up to 21 years of age--put that in the database and it becomes fact to them. I am still paying road tax for a car that went to the breakers 6 years ago. I love everyone everywhwere and wish all joy and happiness for ever. Linzi.

Data sharing
 

It is worth a look. Boy does this apply to motorcyles and 4WD's! Joining the dots on 'data sharing' » NO2ID One of the things Brits don't seem to realize is that once the files are opened on people it will be their responsibility to keep their file up to date. Large fines for failing to do so. Large increases in council tax to bring council records in line and administer it. DO NOT think that British incompetence will stop it---please! Linzi.

Excellent gag! I'm not sure I should be laughing though!

:)

Method
 

I forgot to mention that this data sharing bombshell is hidden in an apparently totally innocent bit of legislation. It's being sneeked through like a submarine running silent. It is a line only, in The Coroner's Bill. I wish dearly that I had it in me to write a sequel to 1984 but alas I'm not in Orwell's league. We all need to write to our MP's that we oppose this most fervently---or don't really care as the case may be. Linzi.

I care and will write to my MP.

The trouble is, my MP is the worst sort of communist ****wit imaginable. This area turned red in 1918 and since they still let single digit IQ morons vote based on the colour of the candidates rosette, it always will be. (the second place in any election here goes to the BNP, so hardly a choice). The result is an MP who can do nothing but file his expenses so long as he follows the party line. It would actually be more efficient if they gave Gordon Brown two votes in parliment and let Challen stay in bed. He's due to retire, but won't step out of line as he'll be after a seat in the Lords and/or chairmanship of some quango.

Now, I wrote to this cretin when they abolished duty free and again when they changed the bike tests. His response on both occasions was a four line letter saying it was party policy to do this, so hard chips. That's it, an open admission that he's nothing more than someone paid to stand where Brown tells him to.

Now, would you bother, or save the stamp and hope someone shoots the ******* come the revolution?

I note after a few small sucesses the Downing street petitions get the same response. Any of those we should be signing up for?

Andy

Test Area
 

Hi Andy, I was told Brighton and Hove city, as it calls itself now, is one of about four test areas. We've got less time than other areas. Seem's the local MP's aren't much use either. I believe in civil disobedience. Wonder how many prison places are free? Linzi.