If you have to choose between a 800 and a 1200, which one would you choose?
 

Nowadays, I have the personal feeling that the 800 is too understated because of the marketing strategies.
I have heard to many people easily saying that without a 1200 engined bike you can't your own way round the world.

What are your thoughts on this?

Alessandro :thumbup1:
Home Fammistrada - RIDESOUL

An 800 is fine for a RTW trip, I would say that a 250 or 400 is even better unless you are carrying a passenger.

Here are three R80GS with 1,000,000 kilometres and several RTW trips between them, any idea that you need anything bigger is just marketing and uses money better spent on petrol, hotels and visas.


http://tiffanystravels.smugmug.com/O...-%20Copy-M.jpg


This R80G/S did a RTW trip with a passenger and a lot of luggage, I don't think the owner ever found it underpowered and this is a 50 BHP airhead not a modern F800 or Tiger 800.


http://tiffanystravels.smugmug.com/O...IMG_0082-M.jpg

Personally I think even an 800 is too big for a solo trip. If you're planning to spend half your trip climbing the Alps and the other half in the fast lane of the autostrada buy the 1200, otherwise get the 800. If you're serious about exploring Italy get something smaller.

250. :thumbup1:


Considering that we see many posts on this site from guys riding around the world on bikes like CG125s or YBR125s, I'd say those folks are wrong.

Can you explain your "Personal feeling" about 800cc bikes? Have you traveled around the world ... or even outside of Italy on either an 800cc bike ... or a 1200cc bike? Which ones? In what way do you feel an 800 is "understated"? :confused1:

I realize you are not a native English speaker, but do the best you can (My Italian is ... Espanol :( ) so appreciate your effort!

As expressed in the post above ... lots of smaller bikes go happily RTW, in fact I just noticed these guys on their Vespas:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...he-world-66112
Very nice report here on HUBB.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-B...61542975_n.jpg

Since you are doing a ride ONLY around Italy ... I think a Vespa would be perfect for you. I'm sure your sponsor, Motocyclismo can get you a scooter to ride ... and maybe even a helmet ...if you don't own one.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-g...pa-vintage.jpg

To make your story even MORE interesting ... why not ride a Vintage Vespa from 1960's or even older? You will not see many riding those!

Regards 800 vs 1200, from what I see (and just my observation here at the center of the world :smartass: (San Francisco, CA), I see the trend heading SHARPLY toward smaller bikes. Both for Adventure type travel and riding in general.

I chose the 800 over the 1200. Easier to man handle (although I've dropped in the garden a few times doh), the mpg is better and I liked the 'more fun' attitude it gave me when I rode both back to back; I had a bigger smile with the 800! I like the more understated presence; for me, it's the better bike, and I have no ego to get in the way! When I do decide to travel RTW, I'd look to buy a smaller, lighter bike. Baring in mind the furthest I can currently travel and get back during my time off is North Africa, the 800 is the perfect bike for me.

Also, with all the 1200 japes that occur here and at the HUBB UK, I'm not too upset I never went for the larger bike!


Someone here once said that you'll never wish you had a heavier bike, but lighter . . .

Lots of folks doing RTW trips on 650s!

Here we go!!...that's the answer i was looking for! :)

Alessandro
Home Fammistrada - RIDESOUL

Hi Backofbeyond,

I know you are following me for the first days. I won't be able to choose my bike because the magazine will provide it for me, and I don't even know the itinerary but I'm sure that with a 40 thousand kilometers I will do a bit of all

Alessandro :thumbup1:

Hi Mollydog,

I know, I'm not a native english speaker but i'm trying to do my best and make me understood. As you have outlined that wasn't the case. :helpsmilie:
With "Personal feelings" I mean "Personal opinion"...
By the way i did some trips not long as a rtw would be and I did them with a 1200 bmw. Here in Europe, at least, I have seen just few bikers with a 800 engined bikes, so I thought many people have 1200 bikes just because of the advertising and not beacuse with a smaller engine you won't be able to to do a rtw, as shown from many forum users.

Alessandro bier

By "understated" does he perhaps mean "underrated" as in not given due credit. Cos that is deffo the case among non-Hubber types out there

With reference to the thread title, my opinion is: Neither. If you're solo, go for a 650 or smaller thumper.

Capacity has become meaningless as a measure of performance. Those air cooled pushrod carbed flat twin 800's put out about the same power (HP or KW) as a racing 125 or certain brands of 1400cc V-twin cruiser. An 800cc fuel injected DOHC watercooled parallel twin BMW not only puts out twice the power as a 700cc Ural but depending on who you talk to has modern materials (like bearings) that will take the extra load or is made of Chinese toffee. The features that make the F800 put out more power than the R80 from the same capacity change the support requirements.


IMHO you want to be shopping for a proven design who's mechanical features you are happy to support in the 15-70 HP area depending on how much stuff you carry.


I can't see the point of 1200cc/100HP for anything except sidecar duty, even Germans must get bored of trying to use a 170 kph bike where most roads have 50 limits and rarely average more than 80.


Andy

I don't think the difference between an 800 and a 1200 is big enough to spend much time thinking about; if you have one, use it, if not, get a good deal on either one, or think about a 650.

The real choice is between, say, a 650 and a 1200, and the best choice depends on the type of travel planned.

mpg
 

when traveling, i found that my biggest expenditure was fuel. so i'd say go with the 800 as it would be better on fuel.
the money you save on go juice can then be spent elsewhere. like biscuits.

I've got a 1200, a "2010" so DOHC it's great just a bit slow and under powered..:eek3:

Yup! That's what we're aiming for next year. A 650 will suit us fine (one each).

And, assuming the word SandroRoma was looking for was 'underrated', I don't think any of the sub-1000cc BMW range are underrated as RTW bikes. Quite the reverse, in fact. IMO the mighty 1200GS has rather lost its prestige as a RTW bike now that so many are used as executive toys and commuter bikes.

Regardless of how many are used as executive toys and commuter bikes, the 1200GS has never been the best choice for a "real" RTW trip, simply because of its size and weight (leaving aside the question of reliability, etc.). Therefore its "prestige" as a RTW bike was wholly manufactured, albeit rather skillfully, by BMW.

Personally, if I were sticking to more or less developed countries and intended to generally stick to tarmac, I'd get a 1200GS. For anything else, I'd get a 650. One of the problems is that there are not that many good 650s to choose from, at least in some markets.

You can't really make a simple conclusion. It depends on many things like the type of roads you will travel and the weight you carry and your own size and strength.

It seems people are comparing the BMW 800 and 1200. I don't like the 800. The rims ding too easy and the front suspension is so soft it nose dives when braking. That means more money to redo the front end. the throttle is snatchy and the wind blast terrible.I don't think the range if the 800 is any greater than the 1200.

Going smaller to a thumper, well on long days who wants the vibration and lack of power?

The problem with the 1200 is C&E. They have turned it into a poser thing so that everyone buys one. BMW will tell you 90% of them never see dirt. Even here. It must be far worse in Europe and USA. That means BMW makes it softer and with more gimmicks to please the bulk of the buyers, who don't ride off road. The same thing has happened with 4x4 vehicles. The soccer moms, yuppies, and city crowd has turned them into status symbols. Who would seriously go off road now with a Fortuner?

Even worse, KTM has succumbed to this trend. The 1190 is now more road oriented with all the BMW gimmicks and a small front rim (unless you get the R). The demand for serious off road touring bikes (and 4x4s) is a small minority of the demand. So manufacturers follow the trend. Don't blame BMW. Blame the yuppies who buy them for status.

I agree with you!
I believe you about the situation in South Africa because I've never been there (i will one day).
You are right about Europe, at least in my city, Roma.
Roma is full of layers that have chosen the "adventurous" GS1200 for going every day from office to court on an "adventurous" city treck! :(:(

That's why as you said BMW is weakening the GS with Electronial knick-knack and a luxurious design.
Because they won't go adventuring in off-road!

For istance: Who will really go off road with a Porsche Cayenne? I think not a single owner of it, who if really wanted to do would have bought a much better Land Rover Discovery. Isn't?

Alessandro:thumbup1:

I don't think there is any need to criticize people for buying the R1200GS as a commuter bike, for which it is generally very good. I use mine regularly in Moscow traffic and it gives excellent visibility and lots of power to stay out of trouble.

Would you be happier if people commuted on Harleys? Or why care at all what they commute on?

I'm sorry Motoreiter,

I didn't mean to criticize you and all the others using a GS for city traffic. Maybe you don't have this kind of "problem" in Moscow, but what I was trying to say is that many people here in Italy (at least in Rome) usually buy GS not because it's a great machine (I have one too) but because nowadays having a GS it's a status symbol and you will see many people that from scooter have turned to GS saying that they have gone great adventures when the greatest that they actually do is facing the traffic in Rome. So my point is, if they want to have a Gs because they like it, say it. They don't need to say what the market want them to say.

Hope the misunderstanding is solved now bier

Alessandro

1200GS No way. Way too big and heavy. Nothing to do with the badge. Super Ten, Big KTM's the same. Built for road and nicely graded tracks at most.

*Cue someone posting a video of a 1200GS riding through a puddle*

Like said, even the 800cc is too big. However the 800GS is surprisingly light and nimble for it's CC. I was pleasantly surprised by it.

Personally though. Japanese 650 thumper.

My 'big' KTM goes in far more places than road and nicely graded track. That isn't me in the pic by the way!

Alessandro, I agree with you mostly. For many GS owners (but not all) ownership is about the badge and how the bike looks, not what it is capable of. It's a bit like seeing fancy 4X4's in any city you care to think of.
I live in a seaside town which is on the main road between a city and a larger seaside town just a few miles away from me. Any Sunday (and especially when the sun is out!) I will see quite a few GS's or similar adventure bikes heading from the city to the seaside. Follow them to the seaside and you find them all parked in the same place with the owners standing admiring each others bikes even though they're all pretty much identical. Look a bit closer and you can see that most of them are spotless, no more than 2 or 3 years old, and none of them have done more than 2-3000 miles over that time. A lot of them have the full metal luggage, GPS, and every adventure related piece of equipment you can imagine. If it rains these guys go crazy trying to get their bikes under cover!
But if that's their choice then so be it. Many people like the thought of being able to go "adventuring" even if they never actually do it. In some ways I (and many others) would be a bit like that. I admire the looks of these bikes and I would love to have one in my garage along with my R1150RT even though I would never use one to 10% of it's capability. The RT is my choice because it is a lovely comfortable tourer and not because of the badge. I have had other tourers and nothing comes close in my opinion. If it performed the way it does and had a Jailinghongkong badge on it I'd still ride it and enjoy every minute of it.

You got my point! :)

er, OK, and you know this how? And you even know how many kilometers these guys have ridden, wow!

Sure, not everyone buys the R1200GS to ride RTW, but surely that is a good thing, since it is not the best for that. In fact, however, the GS is a great tourer and commuter bike, so I'm sure plenty have people have bought it for those purposes, for either of which they might want to have the cases, etc. (although I wouldn't use them for commuting...).

The R1200GS is a great bike. People buy it for different reasons and purposes, and frankly why does anyone care? Get over it...

Whoa! Steady on old chum and hold on to your panties!
I was simply replying to a comment made by Sandro. I was not saying that EVERY owner of a GS toodles around the countryside. I was saying that quite a few of them do. What they do with their bikes, their money or their ego is of no concern to me. I was merely quoting a real life example of this fact. Are you also going to question the validity of my comments?


I know what I know because my eyesight is pretty dammed good, even if I say so myself. I like bikes, I like to look at bikes, I like to ride bikes and I have even been known to chat to other bikers and look at their bikes too. And when a 2 year old bike that gleams in the sunshine like it had just came out of the factory has an odometer reading of 2683 miles (or something like that) then it's a reasonable assumption that it's not on it's 2nd or 3rd trip around the clock. Or even the world for that matter.
And if you can't understand that then I am not the person to help you!


Perhaps you should read the last paragraph of my previous post. Read it again (slowly this time) and you'll see that I am in agreement with what you're unsuccessfully trying to say!

Why is it that whenever BMW is mentioned it seems like WW3 will erupt? Sabre rattling, defensive positions, attacks, etc. The world is divided into the haves and have nots: those that have a BMW and does that don't :rofl:

Maybe the BMW word should be considered non PC and banned. Words like beemer boys should be like the N word: taboo except for the most bike bigoted. rather say those who have the blue propeller, the B word, etc :rofl:

Its just too tantalisingly delicious not to comment on a BMW thread to most.. I'm also guilty of it. It's like picking a scab..

Its like when I ride my BMW without matching kit, or wear a KTM jacket on it. Its sort of like stripping naked in church....

Oh my goodness Kradmelder. I wear a Hein Gericke jacket on mine and a pair of gloves I bought on ebay for 20 quid. The trousers came from a bike shop for not much more. I must change my ways because I too am a sinner! lol

heh, sorry, my rant was not so much at you, but a common attitude on this forum: no one should buy a GS to ride around the world...no wait, no one should buy a GS if they don't want to ride around the world...no wait, actually, no one should buy a GS at all because a post bike is just as good...

The fact is that they are good bikes. Not the best for everything, but pretty good at most things, and frankly most people don't want or need more than one bike.

As to the low mileage, sure it would be great if everyone rode 50k a year, but people's time, abilities, and opportunities to ride very greatly, and for some people the cost of a bike, even a GS, is not a big burden. At least these people are out there trying it out, and if nothing else they provide a great source of used bikes for other people. I can't fault them for that.

I agree :thumbup1:

I sometimes ride mine with just a T shirt, shorts and veldskoene with no socks....BMW sacrilege. Or sometimes to haul a shop of veggies and potatoes.

What would happen if someone from the BMW club saw me? Certainly I would be told not to consider applying...:rofl:

Kradmelder......you are a rebellious rebel operating at a level of rebellia that I can only aspire to. I tip my hat to you in admiration!

Rebellious, I'll tell you about rebellion, I've recently bought a BMW suit off eBay for £260
Nothing rebelious there granted but the trousers are rallye 3 and the jacket is rallye 2:eek3:

Rebellion. That's not rebellion. When I were a lad we'd go down to BWM dealer, drink nine coffees, test ride GS, RT and RS, try all helmets on, chat up receptionist and then ask if they had anything that'd not get stuck between bollards in't local shopping centre bike parking.


Oh, excuse me, this is the three Yamaha Riders Sketch thread isn't it?






Andy

It's not our fault though. Some BMW owners make it too much fun.

However, It would be quite unfair to label all GS riders as Clueless 'more money than sense', adventure wannabes.... That's just not true.

It's the same as many who ponse about in Land Rover Defenders. Most are parked outside the Savoy while their owners munch prawn sandwiches. But some are thoroughly used and abused all around the world.


What I have noticed is, there is no other brand owner who will get so wound up and rattled about realistic criticism on their bikes.

This is just a generalisation and stereotype from my own experiences but I have found that if you talk about pitfalls of a Honda with a Honda owner or the qwerks of a Triumph with a Triumph owner, you will usually get a "yeah, I know, this is how I live with it/sort it etc etc"

The same conversation with a typical BMW owner will end up in a childish squabble, a patronising eye rolling or look of 'I want my mummy'....

I've worked at a few different Motorcycle franchise's covering all brands and customer type casts. I have to say, some of the customers I have to deal with at BMW are the most unpleasant, arrogant, rude, self important A**e holes I have ever had experience with. NOT ALL, obviously. We also have a few lovely customers who make it bearable.

I think it's the 'prestige' market perhaps that makes it so enjoyable to mock. I have a few mates who sell cars for Porsche and Ferrai and they say the same. The more money they can spend, the bigger arsehole they usually are.

Is it just the working class vs Middle class divide ???? A new shiney GS1200 with all the Sparkles isn't exactly a working man's bike..

Sorry for going off topic... :ban:

dave....that's not being rebellious, that's getting close to being illegal !! :eek:

I have never owned a BMW bike, but I wear a BMW Rallye 3 Jacket and BMW trousers, (Had to replace a wrecked jacket and trousers at short notice and the insurance company paid for it) I ride around on my DR650 - which has no Suzuki decals on it at all. A few times Ive been asked by BMW riders if Im on a BMW 650, when I tell them its a Suzuki they normally look at me like Im the spawn of Satan - Its quite entertaining

FWIW the GS1200 is a bloody good bike, not perfect, but no bike is. The 800's are IMO probably about right for 2up overlanding. Personally I think the 450 class of bikes will be the 'new' 650 over the next few years for (solo) overlanding, they have decent power and are lighter than the 650's and hopefully the reliability will be there as they develop.

Id much rather see thousands of people riding around on shiny new bikes that never go anywhere, than have thousands more cage driving ignorant Muppets on the road trying to kill me

The working classes are now buying adv bikes and holidaying? We are paying them too much!

They should be silent and just polish my bike and bring me a prawn sandwich

I believe at least some of that defensiveness stems from a sort of Gang mentality that's evolved out of BMW "culture".
At least here in the US, it's a real thing:

In the USA there are two huge BMW riding clubs:
https://bmwmoa.org/
The BMWMOA has tens of thousands of paying members, a world class web site, shiny monthly mag and sponsor rallies and events nationwide and in Canada. All to promote the brand. NO ... BMW Gmbh do not pay these clubs,
money is all member generated. Now that is commitment! Only Honda's Gold Wing club can match this. NO other brands see this kind of owner commitment.

The MOA are into everything BMW ... at the rallies it sometimes feels like a political rally! :eek3: As a former MOA member of 9 years ... been there, seen it all 1st hand. Their disdain for anything Japanese is palpable. Of course I'm not talking about ALL BMW folk ... but there are enough so you'd notice.

BMW RA
The "RA" or Rider's Association, bit smaller. But also put out their own glossy monthly magazine and sponsor huge rallies nationwide. They are in friendly competition with MOA ... some super fans are members of both clubs.

This group think is also encouraged on some public all brand forums like ADV Rider ... which has always been very BMW centric ... but now has somewhat shifted to being KTM centric as well. :devil:
Many of the ADV principles and key players were/are MOA members and attended rallies (still attend?) You could argue the MOA created the inspiration for ADV Rider.

BMW owners find strong reinforcement and encouragement from all sides of their culture. Nay sayers not tolerated. This "education" can lead to a fundamental ignorance and create self absorbed and arrogant riders that Ted spoke of.

After a while they can't tolerate any criticism of the brand ... no matter how accurate. We've all seen this over reaction here and on other forums. Why so defensive?

Truth. They don't like it. :stormy:

For years and years BMW lied and ignored known problems. They often put spin on issues and generally soft pedaled them as "no big deal". This did not make everyone happy ... and many long time customers have moved on.
(reams of documentation of dozens of issues all over the internet)

Things at BMW are better now after two major management shakeups. But for many, the deed is done and won' t be soon forgiven. :thumbdown:

I ride with a former BMW dealer principle and 2 former BMW dealer mechanics. I get a more inside view of what that "Truth" thing is. My BMW riding buddies (most, but not all) freely admit to shortcomings of the bikes, no attitude ... and can not only verify their existence ... but will tell you how to get BMW to fix things. These guys long ago dropped that "BMW Right Or Wrong" marching theme.

NOTE:
All still own/ride BMW ... but also know (and freely admit) that servicing, care and feeding is not always simple or cheap. (most own other brands too ... 6 DR650 in our little riding group! :thumbup1:)

I thought of making a sticker to stick on the GS bikes:
"my other bike is a Suzuki!". :smartass:

Especially among newly indoctrinated BMW riders/members ... we sometimes see a zealous and illogical loyalty towards BMW. Lots of the jokes and videos come from experiences with this small group.

But as you've said Ted ... plenty of "good guys" out there riding, doing the real deal.

I love riding the GS's ... both F800 & R12GS. But would not own either as I've been on WAY TOO MANY rides where someone's BMW crapped out and ended up at the end of a tow rope or on a truck. True story!

Mollydog, what about the harley HOG clubs? Surely that surpasses any bmw club? We have bmw clubs here as well. And bmw rallys. I avoid them like anything brand related. Makes no sense. Maybe we both drink coke or klipdrift brandy. What does that give us in common? A style of bike ok, but a brand?

I can see good points in any bike. Except a harley. Its just heavy underpowered noisy unreliable vibrating hunk of metal with bad brakes with no real application. The victory of image over substance.

Yes, HOG is big ... but not as active as it once was. Not sure how their rallies compare to the various BMW ones, not sure how they work or if they have a National rally the way the MOA and RA do. I've only been to Sturgis and Daytona. But HOG is BIG for sure, it's true. I should have included them.

Remember, in 2009 HD lost 47% of sales. They've come back up now ... but took a huge hit and were down BIG a couple years.

BMW somehow grew during the financial collapse. Amazing! (check the stats)

Have you owned a lot of Harley's ? You sound like an expert! :rofl:

Rolling Thunder in DC is pretty big.

We've got an 800gs which made it RTW without any major problems. I guess it depends on your tolerance and also mechanical ability (don't consider stator and fuel pump major) Can't believe once upon a time we would pay for an oil change for example;). Only time that bike ended up on a truck was when we crashed it. Even then it still would've been rideable but my husband wasn't able. Anyway IMHO I think the 800 was great for us, not too heavy but big enough for 2up. The 1200 was too beefy but it can be a great bike especially for big tall guys. And hellz yes it'll make it RTW with good riders. Jose Garcia & Marko Hemmila are both badasses who've been riding for 2 years now on some very hairy roads, just to throw a couple out there...

We joined BMWMOA briefly but found it kinda strange. I like the sticker idea, hehe our other bike is a honda.

If you do buy an 800.. Get new rims. The originals will bend and crack if you off-road. Fact..

second that. they are very soft and smileys are a feature of 800 rims.

:nono:

watch it

:tt2:

I figure when Im too old to swing a leg over a bike, and my hearing goes I may consider a Harley that I can just walk over and sit on

Heard that. guess we got lucky. front rim is bent but still functions fine so we ignore it :)

Glad to hear you've had good luck with your "no major problem" F800GS! :welcome:
"Tolerance"? Indeed! How much should you have to tolerate on a $15,000 + motorcycle that's pitched for it's "Legendary" German reliability? :confused1:
Stator and fuel pump failure not major? :eek3: Really? Last I checked both are 100% show stoppers. Perhaps your "mechanical ability" is at dealer level? Did you find a way to fix either failure on the side of the road in middle of some Saharan desert or African Savana? Seems many 800GS riders carry spares on board. But those are very expensive spares, no? Should you really have to do that with such a modern, high tech bike? One that is specifically BUILT to travel in 3rd world countries off road with a full load? doh

well, you had to start somewhere. Can you change the oil now? How about diagnosing "Error codes"?

Must admit I loved riding the F800. Seem like a very good compromise bike for luxury 2 UP travel. But I'd still pick a Vstrom over the BMW every time. :helpsmilie:

We see LOTS of novice BMW riders using dealers for E V E R Y T H I N G. The problems arise once far away from a BMW dealer. Why do these basic, fundamental systems fail on a seemingly regular basis?

Honda? Not a bad choice. Next time maybe? :D

In many parts of the world (ie: Latin America) you'll find a Honda dealer in just about every mid to large sized town in every country. Dozens of dealers per country. Typically, BMW have ONE dealer per country in Latin America.

bier

The fuel pump is not too hard to change, we did it a few times. It cut out intermittently n Kyrgyzstan & we were able to locate a generic replacement (instead of shelling out $500 for a whole new fuel assembly & whatever ungodly amount to ship it) it took some time to diagnose the problem and it could've been multiple things but we were never dead in the water, at least for more than a couple hours in India. Last issue was a loose hose which just needed a proper clamp. 1yr later she's still chugging. The stator went at the end of our ride in the US. Having access to data and being near a city totally changed the mentality. Again we were able to hobble along & found a place to install a new (cheaper after market) stator I had fedexed. We couldve done it ourselves but opted to have it done as we were running out of time. We aren't particularly knowledgable, just very willing to look stuff up and learn out of necessity far away from the dealers that charge up the wazoo. The BMWs are probably more vexing with their special screws & nuts, we packed the toolkit accordingly so we could take practically the whole bike apart if need be:) I have to say Marko was kind of inspirational, he's got a 2005 (I think) 1200gs and he could probably take it apart and put it back together blindfolded..with glee. We are still getting there. Time to change the chain & sprockets again. Already did the oil change!

Anyway the bike is fancy but not that fancy. It doesn't have AC or one of those couch seats. Ours is like sitting on a plank of wood actually. & hells no we didn't pay 15k, more like half that 2nd hand. Why pay so much for a pristine bike you will beat the $hit out of? Go used! And use it well!

We did consider taking the Honda when we first ruminated on our long ride but in retrospect it's a VFR and would never have made it 50ft off road. It also does not lay down as nicely as the GS;). Originally we were looking for a Transalp but they are hard to find in the US and all very old.

Fault codes are actually easier if you have the tool and the knowledge. The fact we have a lot of trained plumbers in a world of IT may drive choice of equipment of course. A phone app would prove the long distance credentials of electronic bikes but no large manufacturer will launch one as nine out of ten customers would be Starbucks Charlie's who currently pay the service department and believe the photo shoots behind the hotel in Spain.

Don't be scared of the technology but consider your ability to interact with it.

Andy

serious round world - 800 probably
 

Austin said "you will never wish for a bigger heavier bike". I do sometimes if I zzz zzz along on my ttr250 fighting the wind getting frustrated.

800/1200 ?

800 is lighter sometimes and the Triumph/BMW 21" front attracts me for dirty gravel/dirt/boulders etc.

Then again something 1200 is way better for long long roads and I tend to move quickly in winding tarmac.

I wonder, what is the difference in weight between a 800/1200 when both fully laden, does the 800 suffer more? is there much of a difference?

Others say, big bike is too heavy to pick up!
My answer to that is - "don't fall off then" :)

Or don't be a weak sister and be strong enough to pick up the bike :rofl:

do people think an 800 isnt fast enough for road use? because fully loaded 2 up my f650gs is doing about 100mph, which seems like enough to me.
its not the fastest acceleration, granted, but its still fast enough for fun.

Austin had it right! :D Most don't stick to motorways doing RTW type travel so may not want a 120 mph bike. In much of the world, typical roads speeds could be 50 kms to 70 kms per hr. Dicing through congested towns the 250 rules, no? In mud, steep, deep sand, nasty rough tracks ... once again, little bike is pretty good. Fewer crashes I would think?
How do you get round those 60 km Oz speed limits and speed cameras? doh
If you want to really speed ... better get over here bud! ... and get a ZX1400RR :rofl: Welcome to Nevada! :smartass:

Weights are always disputable ... but here's what we found. (YMMV)

F800GS
basic wet weight (tank full, ready to ride): 485 lbs. (218 kgs.)
Add bash/crash guards, tank bag, racks, bark busters, loaded panniers, tools:
"roughly" 570 lbs. (260 kgs.) Depends how rider loads up bike.

R1200GS
basic wet weight: 545 lbs. (247 kgs.)
Add bash/crash guards, tank bag, racks, bark busters, loaded panniers, tools:
"roughly" 630 lbs. (286 kgs.) Depends how rider loads up bike.

The good news is the big R12 GS is the easier bike to pick up. Those boxer cylinders prop it up a bit, making getting her upright easier than the F800GS, which lies down very FLAT. It's that first Foot of lift that's tough.

Still, for both, it's a two man lift ... if your smart. An unloaded R12GS (no accessories) is really not too hard to lift up. From lying flat, the 800 feels quite a bit heavier to me. I've lifted them both solo and with friends. But start adding all the crap on ... now you've got an Elephant. Even my DR650 is hard to lift with all my crap on board. (430 lbs./195 kgs. fully fueled and loaded)
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1...26_XKBCH-L.jpg
5 times in one day !!! Too much! (Mexican Bull Dust on logging roads!)

"You will never wish for a bigger, heavier bike"..

Wise words.... And I totally agree.


However, there are plenty of times when I've wished for a faster one.

When you're on a dull, straight open road with 18 wheelers overtaking you, you will be wishing your trail bike had another gear or an extra 20bhp... 60mph can get REALLY boring at times.

There will ALWAYS be compromise somewhere.

you are very correct, this is the reason why I spend so much money going overseas .. Isle of Man in 3 weeks, P2P2 in 3 months. Got friggin speeding ticket 3 weeks ago coming back from a festival ... and wasnt bloody speeding just hit a 90 zone and was slowing down when ... fascist bastards appeared. I rarely go out on the road here. Australia is shit for bikes it really is :(

some days I could go home to Scotland ...

TT here I come yay!

I chose the 800. 1200 was too big and too heavy. F800GS seems to carry it's weight high which is maybe why it feels challenging to pick up; don't know. Seriously considering a lighter bike for Mongolia next year. Will look around at the end of the year.

And plod in the UK is any better? Always looking over your shoulder in case you say something that may offend, like a sentence with welsh and sheep, any minor road infraction, like overtaking within some zone, parking on the pavement, and any thing you text on the internet etc to come fine you, arrest you, give you demerit points to take your licence etc.

If aussie plod would spend his time chasing the kiwis doing nasty things to sheep, then perhaps you would be able to ride more.

Rather get here. 60 km over the limit will cost you an R500 bribe

well guess what .. another frigin ticket on sunday .. thats 2 in two weeks. Jeez I hate riding in this boring friggin place .. I'm selling my oz bike, West Australia is shit! I'll keep the off - roader, at least the bastards cant get me there :(

I guess, as you say the place is so boring, the cops give out tickets just to relieve the monotony. I can imagine the highlight of their day when they get back to the cop shop: 'G'day mate I just nailed a biker for speeding today. a bleedin pom'. 'Good on you mate, I think I nailed the same pom 2 weeks ago. Gottia keep the roads safe for the roos'. ' Want some beetroot on your burger?'. ' Cheers mate' lol

'Your off road in WA must be limited to the flat outback? Must also get boring after a while?

I did a 12,000 mile trip on a Honda XL175 trail bike on knobblies. It was reliable, easy to pick up when I dropped it, and easy on the wallet to insure and fuel. I met some serious characters who loved the idea of what I was doing who'd have ignored me if I was on anything bigger and approaching being a 'proper' touring bike. You can have fun and see stuff on anything. Even a small un.

Is the correct answer :)

Ok, I'll bite...why do you care what these "serious characters" think, or if they would have ignored you? Frankly a strange criterion for choosing a bike.

Not as strange as you might think.

Something different is interesting. People tend to want to interact with interesting things.

When I see a brand new bike all loaded up with touratech crap with a rider with super expensive, never broken in riding gear, I tend not to give it much attention. Your brain is programmed to ignore what you class as mundane.

Someone on a 'different' and interesting bike would have me saying hi and asking questions.

It's happened to me loads of times when travelling. If you stick out, people tend to open up to you and lots of great occasions usually follow..

If you have to choose between a 800 and a 1200, which one would you choose?
 

Yeah would agree with this. I find with my 250 XR, while outstanding on gravel and mud, and excellent for weaving in heavy Latin American traffic, on long sealed straights 100kph can get a bit boring. I usually just drop to 80 and try to take in the scenery! That said, the 'go anywhere' feeling more than makes up for it! Coming back today on a long exposed road, with strong headwinds, I had to really gas it to maintain 100kps. That said only modern buses do 100 here, with most vehicles chugging along at 70kph, and I expect it will be even lower in poorer countries like Peru, Bolivar, etc. Still, personally I feel there's more fun to be had at 30mph on crunchy gravel than 120 on Tarmac. Other wise words I heard are 'it's better to drive a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow!!' amen!

Your 'bite' is the answer. We're talking.

However in providing it you give the impression that you don't give a toss about meeting people when you travel. To which I'll quickly add - I think is almost certainly not an accurate impression.

But I did not say that was the sole criterion for purchasing the bike. It's just one advantage that my choice revealed for me, that I had not considered. Might be different for you.

When I travel I want to meet people. Both the people who live in that place from whom I can learn things, and also people, like me, who travel through.

It's easy to make yourself isolated from those enriching experiences is all I'm saying. And sometimes the things you never considered become advantages of sorts.

Ok, but this is a straw man argument--apparently the only choices are to ride a post bike or a brand new big bike?

Actually plenty of people with 1200s dont ride brand new bikes or with brand new riding gear. I get plenty of questions about my 1200 GSA, yesterday another rider started asking questions at a stop light.

But honestly I don't travel, or ride, so that I can meet people who ask about my bike.

Not to direct this point in anyone's direction, but I too feel like this sometimes! I've a 2010 F800GS, and I get people coming over to chat from all walks of life. Most are just interested in travel and, I get the impression, secretly wishing they were doing something similar rather than going A to B in their metal box. Four years ago, my bike was brand new. In ten more, it will be older. Me or the bike won't have changed at all, so surely all permutations are 'acceptable'. I like meeting people; in my limited experience, the bike (any bike) is a great starting point for that conversation.

what would happen if you left without paying?

Yep I'll go along with that Ted!

Dare to be different, its about your experience and what can be given and gained culturally in conversation along the way. Seriously who gives a rat's what the over accessorised think? Just like Mama told you, wear clean undies, a smile, use your manners and show some respect and all will be good, regardless of your ride or accessories for that matter.

I bought a HP2 Enduro a while back simply because it blew me away, I'd not even seen one before early 2012 (often kept in the dark and impulsive) It was a great ride and conversation starter as are all bikes collectable and those found where least expected. Like jocklandjohn doing a 12,000 mile trip on a knobby shod XL175 (used to have one) Awesome! I very much regret selling the HP2 however there were circumstances, my mental state of imbalance mostly. So an R1150 GS followed, did everything I asked of it but in short, yawn and it got offloaded.

A KTM 950 Adventure S was the next quoit cushion. After doing 20,000 odd K's through some gruelling off road tracks I have to say, what a capable bike with awesome handling, heaps of grunt, off road capability and there's that really sweet quad cam V2 engine, which I might add induces involuntary but sometimes severe bouts of leading elbow!

The KTM 950 Super Enduro similar to the one pictured below will get a long hard looking at as the next ride, because it and I don't quite fit the norm mold ;-)
Sorry to spoil the view with the Touratech boxes Ted bier

The SE is a great bike. An endure bike on steroids! As a long distance bike though, the seat was designed as a Chinese torture device and the fuel tank is of very small capacity.

Funny how bikes like the SE and HP2 get discontinued. They are both limited range, solo rider, dirt oriented monsters which really only finds a market in Aus and SA. Too small a market I guess. The ADV S would be more suitable if anything more than a short romp.

Ai here we are discussing KTMs on a BMW thread:rofl:

You would have to ask the aussies. It isn't like they can lock you up and ship the criminals off to Australia :rofl:

Perhaps they just send you to some outback town to be plagued by flies, drunken aussies and dust :rofl:

Surely that's against human rights laws? I mean the flies and dust are fair enough, but...

The Poms used to ship criminals off to Australia but criminals is not the appropriate description! Any Irishman would be more than happy to set you straight, especially if you're a pom :-)

Its a Police state well country in fact! Just done 40 odd thousand K's around the globe without a ticket, never got pulled up once. Back home, 6 fines (not all speeding) in a matter of 2 months all of which were erring on the absolute minimum. C*%#'s I'm seriously over it!

Fines here in Oz (in my state) are linked to the motor vehicle registry's (customs and immigration will probably be next) They cancel your rego if you don't pay your fines, don't tell you they have done so, oh so nice of em! So if you get pulled up at a later date you not only get another fine but the complimentary colonoscopy for riding unregistered! They also stop you from getting vehicles registered till ya cough up!

Cops are not so stupid as to chase you over a ticket, they just wait for you to come back!

The thread says choose between 800 - 1200. I'd imagine it's mental conditioning that one would automatically think BMW, on the other hand it may well be Sandro's not quite perfect command of English leaving BMW out of the heading ? ;-)

The seat on the 950 Adv S was light years better than any BMW seat I've ever owned! The HP2 seat was defiantly in if not the leader in the torture board category! Cant imagine the SE seat would differ that much from the Adv S? Limited range yep, tank replacement would be mandatory, quite a list of mods for long range / term touring would have to be done at some expense too but I'm up for it and the KTM 950 Super Enduro has me interested / intrigued and motivated.

2MotoKiwis are having a good run on a KTM 950 SE 2 up despite the oxygen thief they bought it from!

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ntarctic-65500

Yea, not quite perfect like a Fox. :innocent:

I can't believe anyone would let something as MINOR as a seat and tank put them off a bike. :innocent: FACT IS ... the 950SE is the best KTM twin ever made. It's unbelievable they quite making it! :taz: Almost as bad as letting Ewan & Charlie ride off on BMW's! doh Neither 950 or 990 come close to the SE. The 1190 has 150 HP ... but who needs that in a travel bike?

A $400 USD Renazco Racing seat is money well spent and transforms the SE to a plush, all day ride ... I guess there are one or two fuel tank options as well?

When you break down stats about the SE .. it just craps on any other twin ... or really just about any other bike in class ... Period. The ONLY real draw back I've seen is poor fuel economy. My buddies get around 35 MPG (US) a bit more if they go easy.

Guys spend THOUSANDS Getting their GS's up to speed: seat, suspension, bash guards & touratech everything. If doing serious off road is the plan, hard to beat an SE ... as time goes by they will become more rare.
Question: Will KTM ever make a lighter, tour capable twin again?

Me and my buddies on their SE's in Sequoia National Forest:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l...0/P1030370.JPG
Two SE's, two DR650's. 10 days camping in Sequoia Nat. forest. DR's had NO TROUBLE keeping up ...on or off road.

In Sandro's defence, his English is 100% better than my Italian, he probably speaks Spanish, French and some Latin too :thumbup1: KTM and BMW stopped producing the SE and the HP2 for reasons unknown, and yes I agree doh
Will they make em again ? Doubt it very much.

It does make them pricey especially the HP2 but what a ride! Soaked up more rough stuff than Boris Yeltsin's liver! On the up side when I do manage to get an SE under my butt, it may well cost a bit to sort but I'll have something usable, capable, collectable and I reckon it'll put a smile on my dial every time I get on it. If it's remotely close to the HP2 performance and handling wise I'll be wrapt!

I think Kradmelder was just making reference, seat n tank wouldn't stop anyone buying one. Replacing the seat however is money well spent and I should have done so on the HP2. This is what my butt felt like after a long day on the HP2!

I guess the SE, like the HP2 just wasn't selling. I The market was too small. I guess if you want an endure bike you buy something smaller. If you want a touring bike you bought a 1200 GS or 990 adv which doesn't need extensive modification. The SE and HP2 were just a small niche of dedicated followers. Im sure the decision to stop them was financial.

KTM is now moving in the direction of BMW with the 1190. Even the 990 is heavy on fuel. I get about 6 l/100 km. after 220-240 km the light comes on and I need 15 l. Once the light is on, you have less than 50 km to find fuel if you ride slow. The standard adv is lighter on fuel than the R mapped version like mine. The 950 SE is worse.

Wait and see if they out with the KTM 790 adv. That maybe a more tour capable bike than the 690. But who knows yet.

Yea, small niche of riders. But here in the US (once the SE was discovered) the SE is now a bit rare and hard to find cheap. SE has potential according to my 3 SE owning buddies ... who've taken them to Baja in rough conditions and beyond. For them, they are keeper bikes. bier

I was amazed at the actual weight once you fit a lighter pipe and eliminate a few other heavy items and add on lighter replacements. The SE ends up being just 20 - 30 lbs. heavier than my DR650 (:taz:) ... but with better handling, better suspension and 50 more HP!

You talking about a 790 single? Or Twin? I'd like a see a very light, total minimal 650 to 750cc twin (sort of in the SE vein).
Something along the lines of original Yamaha 750 Tenere' Dakar bike.

Like a Rally Twin but street and tour ready. :confused1: Possible?
Leave off all the street crap (ABS, Trac. control, Elec. Suspension) Leave off fancy dash and clocks, body work. Very basic.

Sadly, I doubt KTM would ever build such a bike. ... and your right, appeals to small niche only. :(