The HUBB - We have to talk about money
 

Dear Hubbers,

The banner showing the text above - I think its time to talk about money now. To run a forum these days where other people create content for free is like owning a gold mine. Even some people using adblockers, its financing itselfe easily.

I was a lonely traveler somewhere in the jungle. Everybody i knew was affraid of africa and rather wanted to spend his limited lifetime in a save office to pay for the rates of their expensive bikes than to join me on my adventure trip. Then i heard about the HUBB. I was traveling long before and did not need the forum but it was nice to meet other people with the same interests. I joined many HUBB Meetings in Germany, Swiss, SouthAfrica, Chile and Thailand. We sat at the fire cooking our meal while talking about repairing a bike in the mud or were watching and giving presentations about or own trips. In the evening we pitched our tent somewhere on a cow field and spent the night under a million stars or in the snow for free.

Now it all changed. The target group changed. To also attract scared people, the HUBB meetings moved to save lodges or take place on official campinggrounds, were sunday riders enjoy a 20 Dollars meal at the restaurant and take a hot shower, before they go to sleep in their room or chalet. Because the price of the HUBB meetings went up to 10 times the price of other bike meetings, real long term travelers cant afford to attend them anymore. 104 Euro per person for just one weekend. Its not about travel experience anymore...its big bussiness now: Who has the most expensive bike and the most expensive gear?

Luckily there are many free alternative forums like advriders or facebook and many cheaper bike meetings, clubs and communities out there, were its not all about earning money...

So what are you saying exactly?

This is possibly one of the most ill-informed posts I have seen on this site, running a forum is not a goldmine and there is no fortune to be made from advertisers, they just help to keep the show on the road.
Yes there are some people on here who have more money and can afford a little luxury on their trips or at a weekend rally but there are many others who make do with older bikes, secondhand equipment and meals cooked over a camping stove, they are all motorcycle travellers and the help this site provides is free to everyone.
You are correct in saying that there are other sites such as Advrider but expect to find other people there with different options to yours about how to travel, what is a suitable budget or what bike is best and don't be surprised if the owners make money from it either, it is their business.

Thanks for articulating this. It appears that ta-rider is a bit salty that everything is not free. The last time I checked, life isn't free. This is the Johnson's site, and those who can afford to pitch in to keep this place up and running most likely will. Clearly there is no thought into how much time and money it takes to build and maintain a website like this.

All the post are from "Registered Users"
Interesting?

I for one would love to pay $20 for a year to help the site owners out.

Not that I don't have the money, but with no access to Paypal or a visa card here in China makes it a bit hard to pay.
If you had Wechat wallet I pay now?

So far, Grant is just asking folks to pay a few bucks if they are in a position to do so.
If you are not in a position to pay, don't. I'm not sure why there has to be a debate about it.

I for one hope that Grant and Susan are making a reasonable (or even a substantial) amount of money from running this site and the associated activities like the Baskerville Hall meeting and its siblings. The level of commitment, effort and sheer hard work that goes into it has to have some reward otherwise why would they bother.

If Grant came on here tomorrow and said he's shutting the whole lot down because the money's run out or he's lost interest, everyone planning an overland trip would be a lot worse for it.

It's a fallacious argument to say "real long term travelers can't afford to attend". Unless you've spoken to a significant percentage of the world's overlanders you don't know that. People work out their own balance between cost and benefit and for some the entry price may not be worth what they think they'll get out of it. That's their decision in the same way that the cost of a ferry or a hotel or a visa or anything else an overlander may have to buy is considered. It doesn't mean they can't afford it. I considered attending two USA events a while back but decided my priority was travel rather than talk about travel. Over the three days each event was on I probably spent the entry cost somewhere else on booze or fuel or accommodation but of course that comes out of a different budget.

A few days ago one of the other (smaller) sites I visit put out a similar cash call. After some questioning about site advertising etc the owner explained the situation. It cost him $350 / month to pay for hosting. He got back $175 (on average) / month from advertising and $75 from donations. The £100 / month shortfall, he'd been funding out of his own pocket for nearly 20 yrs. Why would anyone do that? Even if he'd been making $100 / month it would be little reward for the value the site has to the people it serves. It's the same here. If Grant and Susan pack up are any of us going to take it on? As Joni Mitchell said: 'you don't know what you've got till its gone'.

I was happy to support the site with a "financial" contribution i do have most the gear and very little idea but in a very short time have enjoyed 2 HUBB meetings
and was made to feel welcome and advice was given free so this was a way to give something back to Grant Susan and the community.

Dear ta, what do you do for free? That takes time, effort, and your own money? For the last 21 years? Me-nada, nada, hell no nada. I took my first trip in 1974. At that time there was very limited info that it was even possible. AAA informed me that there were no roads connecting the countries of S America, I finally got a National Geo map that said otherwise. Now, on this site, you can get all the info you need (sometimes maybe too much) for free. Confession--I have been one of those who have looked for free. This post made me feel guilty, so I finally decided it was time to help the cause. Have a nice day.

Just want to tease all the GS owners.Dont tell me that you cannot afford the 20 USD for a year or 75 USD for 5 years.. The HU meetings are full of GS!:scooter:



Ok.. this is my story & my personal viewpoint.

I feel blessed and honored to have the chance to meet Grant & Susan during the HU Ontario Meeting 2015. We only talked for a while but I saw in their eyes some spark!


First point: Forums like Expedition Portal or HU or ADV are basically online communities for all of us who travel, dream to travel, plan for travels and so on. Overland Sphere does not count (its so poor in content and the admin so bad but anyway..)

There is some potential or opportunity to make some money out of it but again it depends on the content you provide to the community (and lots of other things obviously).

Lets narrow down the online sources of information about travel planning as well as inspiration and platforms to share your life time adventure.

Its either travel forums or FB groups, right? An they are FREE! No alternative at the moment.. Books, magazines and expos contribute as well to information, technical expertise and knowledge sharing but they come with a cost, right?

I am personally an old school guy (only 35 years old) and I love following forums instead of FB groups. The content is well organised, the search button does miracles, the administration/ moderation actually exists, and in some cases you get some family feeling. FB has not been designed for those purposes and it will take some time to deliver.

For those following ExPo Forum, you can clearly tell that its a business. Yes, there is tons of information but if you look deeper its more about brands and reviews than pure overland planning and there is a big overland corporation to back it up.

But it does not work the same for HU. We already know who is behind the scenes.

For me, this makes a huge difference.


Second point: Lets have a look at the audience who follow the forums and their online behavior. From my little experience, there are two big groups (of course there are more but these two prevail). The first one is this small percentage that is loyal to the forum (any forum), tries to infuse it with this family feeling because he feels that the forum is part of his family, he shares some understanding as well as technical information, experiences, pictures and so on. This is one of the two groups. Small in numbers but big in contribution and loyalty.

On the other hand, the second group which is big in numbers, are the people who are basically interested for planning only. So they register (or maybe they dont), they have some questions, they get their answers and puuuffffff.. they disappear. Big in numbers but poor in contribution.

I can see what Grant & Susan have achieved so far (everybody can see) and I can also see what they are expecting and what they are asking.


Third point: Information is for free. I am not sure if it must be for free (long discussion) but so far, knowledge and information is for free in various sources and forms. HU has a huge chunk of travel information and they didnt achieve it in a night. It took them a whole life. The only equivalent or alternative is travel literature and travel books (which have a price tag) that also have tons of info, knowledge and experiences for those who seek for this. But online stuff tends to be for free (either we like it or not).

To sum up, sources of travel information like HU exist and they are for free (so far). There is no differentiation of HU compared to other sources of travel info (so far).

With all respect to Grant & Susan amazing job all these years, for this "product" I am not willing to pay. If the "product" was premium & exceptional with some innovation and differentiation and the added-value would really make a difference in my long travel life, then I would pay not 20 but may 50-70 per year to support the product as well as allow the owners to make some reasonable profit out of it.

On the other hand, the HU meetings they organise all over the world is a great way to make some money. I have personally attended two for only one reason: to meet locals. Both in Canada & USA, the people we have met we are still in touch and they have become life-long friends. Both times, I gave a presentation because I could not afford paying (presenters get in for free) but for me it makes some sense. And I am sure that there are lots of people who can afford it. (teaser: those with the big GSs and the street tires). Plus, this target group craves for travel product like this so they dont mind to pay the 100-200 euro per meeting for a hot shower, a chalet, a hot meal. Not everyone wants to sleep in the woods, drive into the mud and eat noodles and eggs every night.

But having Grant & Sudan to talk about their adventures back in the 80s, YES, this is inspiration and you have to pay something for this.

For me, none of the big travel forums deserve a membership unless they change lots of things in the "product".

Maybe I am naive or short sighted but until today I thought that forum costs could be covered by advertising only. ExPo forum asks 1.5K for a Forum Vendor sponsor and 3K for a Forum Title Sponsor. And the forum is just full of vendors and title sponsors!

But for me, its so hard to convince people to pay for something that they can find somewhere else (most probably for free).

The world is changing. The same goes for travels. When Grant & Susan were travelling, there was no FB, HUBB, Google Maps, SPOT Messenger, SENA Bluetooth and the list can grow biiiiiiig.

Today, we are privileged to have an abundance of travel info but I think that we need to change the way it is shared, it is gathered and we need to add some value. Added value comes always with a price, right?

Finally, we have -as a community- to decide if and how we want to make money out of travels and overlanding. Someone writes a book, someone else creates a forum, someone else organises events, someone else does reviews and some others create products and services for all of us.

Same here. I’ve been meaning to contribute, but just didn’t get around to it. People put money in things they value. I think $20 a year is a very very small price to pay for the wealth of knowledge this place provides.

Dear Ta-rider,

Would you be kind enough to point us to the forum/site you're running which is a gold mine for you? Some financial statements would be helpful to bolster your claim. Thank you for your cooperation.

Also, would you care to elaborate on what a "real" long term traveler is? I'm a bit nebulous on the concept of one individual owning and defining this term.

OK (analogy time) why do you feel it necessary to stand up the local full service restaurant and tell everyone that there is cheaper food at McDonalds or even for free at the soup kitchen? Not everyone has the same needs and tastes.

We're all adults here and can make our own decisions about supporting the site or not. Some make life choices (and have better luck) which gives them more disposable income. This does not make them less of a traveler than anyone else. No one is required to support the traveling lifestyles of those with less money. Life ain't fair but watcha gonna do?

Lastly, there have always been extreme low budget travellers long before HU existed. They did just fine without HU back then and can easily choose not to participate here. The fact that you seem to lament what this community has become (in your eyes) but are still here and actively disparaging it is beyond puzzling to me. I tend to just leave places I don't like. HU is very unlikely to "go back" to what it was in the beginning. Everything evolves and communities who don't adapt to reality (masses of retiring baby boomers with money) is bound to fade into irrelevance.

Way to go Johnsons. You've done a great job, even though I'm sure it's quite thankless at times. I hope you manage to make some money off it for your retirement.

...Michelle

tsk, tsk :rolleyes3: :rolleyes3: :rolleyes3: :rolleyes3: :rolleyes3:


I understand you're just trying to be cheeky. But please understand, my dear fellow traveler, that my GS is 11 years old, has over 100,000Kms on the odometer along with rust and peeling/flaking paint. Also, please note that as a sporadically employed tradeswoman I simply can't afford a new bike every few years. Come to think of it "Ellie" is still running absolutely freaking well even after having been parked for 4 months (yes I live in an area where roads actually ice over in the winter) and even started up in a split second when I moved her to my new house :clap::punk::punk::punk::punk:

...Michelle

If nothing else, this thread inspired me to go and give Grant and Susan some money. :D

30 euros for a two-year contributing membership? I have most definitely gotten more than 30 euros' worth of benefit from HUBB!

The thread is back? and the likes are gone??

Mezo.