How NOT to ride!
 

THIS VIDEO IS QUITE GRAPHIC SO BE WARNED (He gets up though) -

I reckon this guy is lucky to be alive, he's not wearing a helmet or any kind of protective clothing -

LiveLeak.com - Brutal Car and Motorbike accident

This ones even worse -

LiveLeak.com - Biker crashing into car on intersection

BE WARNED THIS IS ALSO VERY GRAPHIC!

It goes to show how bloody vulnerable we all are out there....

never mind the bollocks
 

Thanks but no thanks, I won't even look. I'm still trying to build up my biker balls. Reading, hearing, looking at rough stuff does not help me get any more confident. God I can't even get out the car park at this rate.

I rode a 125 for years, there was never an issue back then, prehaps it's cause I was 25 and living a carefree lifestyle. I'm calling having to much info is also bad for ones progression.

Enjoy your vid.

ta-all-the-way:rolleyes2:

This accident clearly demonstrates the increased hazards at night when traveling fast - LiveLeak.com - Shocking Tragic Accident kills Officer

THIS WAS A FATAL! (Rest in Peace) IT IS CNN film footage so is not too graphic

The purpose of posting these is to show new bikers how vulnerable they are... This is NOT entertainment...

ANOTHER NASTY ONE -

Slow down at a major crossroads / road junction otherwise this can happen -

LiveLeak.com - Traffic Accident at istanbul Turkey

enough already, gore-tv is not useful or productive.

fright night
 

Whats up is it fright night tonight? Do you guys save this for when the season gets dryer. Is it to keep the bike population down. We used to do that as local surfers, we'd scare the guys into coming out in big surf. More waves for us. It's instinct I think to behave like that. How about showing videos of dude's crashing without helmets and protective clothing? Is that instinctive? I don't think so. I actually couldn't care less for a dude who's not taking his life seriously. I'm not gonna watch him and say ahhh shame poor dude.

Dougie,

I know where you're coming from but surely there is nothing wrong with posting a few graphic examples of bad riding? If it helps to slow a few of us down a bit then it's useful. I find these films as shocking as anyone...

If you don't want to look then don't - but I'd rather see them and adjust my riding style accordingly. As I have already stated they are NOT entertainment it's never nice to see fellow bikers getting hurt...

Neil

okay, withouth having a look at the vid's can you explain to me what was the error made by the biker in each case. So that I can learn from it without having to look at the gore. You can leave out the dude without the helmet and any other dudes who are high. Just straight forward errors will do. If you don't mind. I am interested in knowing what they did.

usual errors. failed to look far enough up the road, failed to anticipate. end of story.

Surely it's up to the individual to have a look at these and then judge for themselves how they can avoid the same pitfall(s)? I personally see no harm in showing it the way it is... If someone slows down as a consequence then it's worth showing it.

THE big killer in all these films is EXCESSIVE SPEED and lack of awareness and failure to compensate for the prevailing road conditions. If we all slow down a bit, we shall all stand a better chance of surviving an R.T.C like this it really is that simple...

Safe riding
:scooter:

"THE big killer in all these films is EXCESSIVE SPEED"

that's nonsense, and irresponsible (in my opinion) if you are trying to educate new riders. You can ride very fast and be safe. You can ride very slow and be dangerous. Video number one is not riding fast (it's the only one I watched). Some riders (UK) ride slow in the gutter, and die as a result. Don't mislead new riders that speed is the over-riding cause of death to bikers. It's a very authoritarian and police-like stance, and likely to be ignored.

Speed is for the most part irrelevant on its own, it's usually a failure to ride to the conditions that causes crashes. And a failure to read the road and the hazards.

And if we all stay at home then nobody gets hurt at all....

To be honest I've got better things to do with my time than surf the net looking for videos of people killing or injuring themselves. I can't see why you feel the need to post these links on this forum - are you new to the internet and just discovering the crap that's out there??
These sort of videos do little to promote road safety - unfortunately some people find this sort of thing entertaining and enjoy the sensationalism of them. We're all adults and know the consequences of coming off a bike (often from experience).

Think I read on one of his other posts he's a retired rozzer. Explains a lot.
Probably best not to mention the time I did 175mph on the public road when I had my fireblade:nono:

Snap... M45 :mchappy: Quietest motorway in the UK... or it used to be...

When I lived down in Bristol I used to use the old Severn crossing - after they built the new one the old one's generally deserted.:cool4:

You should both be ashamed of yourselves racing at 175 mph on a public road... It's not clever and clearly puts everyone else at enormous risk including it must be said other bikers! If you want to do that why not book in for a race day at one of the many excellent race tracks throughout the UK?

Video 1 is of a 'ped rider drifting out of a junction and across the opposite side of the road before coming back across in front of a car heading in the same direction.

2 is of a car wrongly positioned at a cross roads and the biker failing to anticipate. Possible excess speed for the traffic conditions.

3 is too dark to comment

4 is failing to anticipate the truck not clearing the junction before the rider got there. In which case, possible excess speed for the rider's ability/experience and also maybe for the traffic conditions.

5 is the same video as 2

Lack of observation/planning is the main factor in all of these videos, not the speed in itself. Video 1 certainly has nothing to do with speed, just general incompetence.

Still not as bad as Chief Inspector whatever-his-name-is Brunstrom. Didn't he use photos of a decapitated biker for a road safety campaign without consulting his family?

Thanks for the reality check Neil, even if here isn't really the place for it.

Found it.

Brunstrom at “last chance saloon” - Motorcycle News - MCN

MCN Readers: “Sack Richard Brunstrom Now!” - Motorcycle News - MCN

Craig,

And to think the UK police forces (sorry service) is being managed by people of this calibre! He deserved everything he got which in the circumstances wasn't enough. It would have been fairer for all concerned if he had been instantly dismissed from the job too (not the court). But then again most coppers are human too... some of the time at least!

The point of posting this thread was to encourage lively discussion & debate on the subject of speed and it's relationship to road traffic collisions in general (and to inflate my website visitor figures). I concede that Speed isn't always the cause of accidents but there can be no doubt that a biker riding slower stands a much better chance of being able to react in time or in the case of collisions, stands a better chance of survival. Those clowns (above) traveling at 175 mph on a public road wouldn't have a chance in hell of surviving any kind of impact! I worry about the other road users that idiots like this take with them... and I've seen it many times.

we NEED the danger
 

Endagering OTHER people is out of order
Endangering YOURSELF is what we do for shits and giggles

The bottom line is that tanning hell out of a bike is fantastic fun, and they are seriously quick these days so staying under 70 just isn't always a realistic ask. If you can't SEE the road you need/be very positive that it's emtpy, you are probably going too quick for the conditions. If you know its clear and you want to push the boat out and find that line between having traction and being in traction then that is your own personal choice and no-one should challenge that. Last time I was in hospital someone had a go at me for being responsible for my own injuries (climbing accident), they were having a foot amputated for being a fat lazy git!!

I for one will be getting a track bike as soon as possible, and I plan on crashing it repeatedly. On a track.

Surely there is enough danger merely by riding on badly worn & conjested UK roads at the national speed limit? I passed my M/C test in 1980 aged 17. The road conditions now are far far worse than those days. As you say, the best place to race (and crash) safely is at the race track NOT a public road. Most people exceed the speed limit every day by 10-30% but thankfully only a limited few would choose to exceed it by 100 mph +!

Spring is it?
 

Jeez, only a bunch of Brits could be bothered to chew over this tedious old warhorse in the small hours of the day!!

The first advert of the year on UK TV, that I have seen anyway, popped up last night on the box - the usual one, as shown last year around this time.
& the local councils newspapers (what? out of my taxes?) have headlines about the road safety aspects of riding bikes - Jeez (again) it must be Spring!!

I'm out of here.

I remember you saying you were returning from biking after a long break so I'd just like to say that this is a lot more common than you think. Take a look around any bike shop these days and you'll see Suzuki GSXR750's/1000's, Yamaha R1's, Honda Fireblades, Kawasaki ZX10's, etc, etc, that will comfortably run up to this kind of speed. Even 600's these days will top 160mph. Bear in mind that it's only recently that a non-sportsbike, the BMW GS has made it into the top 5 best sellers in the UK.

Bottom line is that no-one buys a bike like this to ride at legal speeds and most forces are well aware of this. Best they can do is educate to make people improve their riding skills instead of a blanket "thou shalt not cane thy GSXR" approach.

Durham's BikeSafe events promote local IAM/RoSPA groups, local racing clubs and try to encourage people to attend trackdays. Having said that, their program cover for the 2007 event showed a bike cop, cornering while almost bolt upright with "commuter feet" and generally looking awkward on a new Fireblade, so maybe he could have done with a little track time and tuition himself. Northumbria's "Cornering Clinics" are also an acknowledgement that speed is not the sole factor in the cause of accidents. Incidentally, both forces have openly said that speed cameras don't work to reduce accidents and Durham have no fixed cameras at all.

ABD - Durham

See the quote at the bottom of that page.

"Exceeding the speed limit related to just 60 collisions per year out of a total of 1,900 collisions in the Durham area — that’s about 3%."
Paul Garvin, Chief Constable, Durham Constabulary, 2003
Sunday Times 2003-11-23

Caution, extremely disturbing Video! Please read before opening link!
 

I started a thread similar to this on Adventrider a few weeks ago. I posted it because i had a really scary situation here in Mexico, i avoided getting run over by a truck by the skin of my teeth! Ironicly, i came across a video the same day depicting what might of happened to me, sadly though it happened to someone else in China. This video shows a graphic death and please, be warned, it is much more graphic than anything else you've seen. The point of me posting this video is only to show that it's not all "hair blowing in the wind" We all partake in a dangerous activity and i feel it helps to be reminded of our vulnerabilities. Please, all of you who choose to watch this video, please don't gudge me, i have my reasons for posting it.
!YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
...RIP Scooter-dude :(
Caution! Extremely Disturbing Video! - ADVrider

Down with this sort of thing!
 

Enough snuff. Really. This has nothing do with overland travel, everything to do with grisly ghoulisness and sneering at spannered-up squids. We're all grown-ups. We all know motorcycles are potentially dangerous, inherently unstable - they accelerate like **** and fall over if you don't go fast. And we all choose to ignore that 'cause they're such a giddy hoot. Why not spend some time digging out cheeky inspiration rather than crash-burst porn?

Boo. Hiss.

Suerte, Dan

Just goes to show that lots of people are to stupid to ride a bike. After over 45 years of riding this I am sure of. Stupid is as stupid does.

Forest Gump

I think it's been posted before, but this link is an excellent read for any of us.
How To Survive on a Motorcycle.. from your friends at Pirates' Lair
Personally, I don't want to look at any of the above video links but I am happy to reread this every once in a while.
Ride safely.
Stephan

When I decided to take my test (coming up at start of April) I did some web searches for motorcycle crashes. Why? Because if I'm going to do this then I want to go in with my eyes open, literally and figuratively. There's some horrific crash videos on the web but I can't find a single one which couldn't have been avoided by the motorcyclist if they were aware of what was happening around them, were able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear ahead, rode defensively and weren't trying to do wheelies at 100mph in the nude.

Thankfully there are also some really good advanced tuition motorcycle resources on the web, like this:

YouTube - advancedbiker's Videos

Take care y'all.

constructive
 

Hi lampmeister, thanks, now that is what I call constructive information.
Those advanced vids is what I've been looking for, for about 6 months. No kidding.
Thanks again.

ta-all-the-way

In the interests of balance (and to put ta-all-the-way's mind at rest! ) :

My pops used to work in the Road Safety department for Trunk Roads in Scotland. He says the vast majority of bike accidents are 'single vehicle incidents', in other words bikers being a bit daft and losing it on a corner etc. Therefore, if we all ride safe then motorcycling need not in itself be a dangerous activity.

Plus, I've had seven motorcycle accidents and am (essentially) fine. OK so one of my legs is a bit gammy but not so much that it's stopped me entering the Edinburgh marathon this year. So: ride safe, wear good kit and enjoy yourself!

Matt :)

A pleasure sir. If anyone comes across more links to advanced riding vid's I'd be very interested.

Cheers!

Who mentioned racing? I just wanted to see "what it would do" one day on the way to work at about 6am.

Have you never twisted the throttle too far? How boring.

John

Enough of this self-righteousness.

Imagine this situation for a minute:
Lone sportsbike rider travelling on a deserted major road or motorway - maybe early morning on a weekend.
The view ahead is clear for several miles, there are no other road users, no side turnings or junctions and the road is dry and in good condition.
The rider's doing about 70 or so, and seeing the clear road knocks down a couple of gears and opens the bike up. In a few seconds he's well past 150mph, holds it there for a mile or so, then slows the bike back down.
It's a scenario that gets played out every summer weekend across the country.

Who's at risk here? There are no other people involved and the rider is taking a calculated risk with his OWN safety. Modern sports bikes are designed to be ridden fast, and on a clear stretch of tarmac they are stable, composed and safe at these sorts of speeds.
I've ridden quite a few miles in Germany where on the right roads this sort of riding is regarded as perfectly normal and legal, and certainly doesn't cause the sort of moral outcry we get here.
Speed in itself is not dangerous. Ignorance, carelessness and stupidity are the things which cause accidents, and are qualities which many road users possess in abundance the moment they take control of a vehicle.

Back to the original topic - this is a forum with the emphasis on overland travel. I can't see that it's the place for promoting blood and guts snuff videos.

Sometimes it makes NO difference
 

If you really want to bring road safety home to people, read this!

UPDATED: Motorcyclist killed after road collision in Stone - Aylesbury Today

This happened today. Mick was my buddy and in May 2007 we rode our bikes from France to India, returning last September.

He was about 3 miles from home going to work.
A sad day.

John

Sorry to hear that Redboots.

Condolences
 

Really sorry to hear about your riding buddy, brother John.

We're all experienced motorcyclists, and I'm guessing we've all lost friends, riding partners, all seen the potential dangers of bikes from this dreadful perspective. Consequently, we all ride with this knowledge lodged somewhere in our domes. Adapt and survive. Nothing wrong with talking about training, but I didn't like the way this thread seemed to be slipping into 'Who can find the nastiest crash vid?' snuff-circle. That shit's unhealthy.

Again, condolences. Terrible news.

Suerte, Dan

I too am very sorry to hear that. You're right it certainly does get the safety message over...

Enough!
 

Agreed Dan. No more of these videos please, or I will lock the thread. In fact, I am removing several links. If anyone wants to watch this sort of stuff, there are lots of other options out there in the wild wild web. I know there is teaching value in shock, but too much is too much.

Nigel in NZ

At times it appears that we are our own worst enemies, a lot of sportsbike riders take great delight in taking a video of themselves and posting the film on sites like youtube etc, a more recent observation I have seen is football holiganism rearing its ugly head, I have seen first hand people filming their accomplices fighting at matches, I have seen the footage on youtube, all the time there are websites that are prepared to show this sort of thing then there are always people to oblige.
I used to drive trucks for a living and believe me I have experienced cars as well as bikes doing some incredible things, mainly getting into a 'blind' spot when you are indicating and making a left turn (UK roads). We just have to be very aware, and when riding with no other vehicles about remember our bikes like animals and can at anytime turn nasty and 'bite back'. I once joined a well known 'green lane' organisation, that offered in there leaflets to join them and 'see' the countryside............What a joke. 'see the countryside?' It was as much as I could do to watch 20 feet ahead as I was getting left behind on a 'beginners run' It turned out many of these so called 'beginners' were MotoX and enduro riders out practising, and they wonder why Horseriders and ramblers take such a dislike to us....Wake -up!. A lot of people seem to measure life in MPH....why?.
I mainly agree with Kentfallen, but to the others that boast of 175mph, why? I just hope for their sake they don't learn the 'hard way'

It wasn't my intention to offend anyone by posting these videos and I never looked on them as entertainment. I was merely using them to "kickstart" a lively discussion and debate. I will cheerfully apologise if anyone feels it's a bit OTT however it has had the desired effect.

I don't want to give the impression that I have never sped myself or broken road law on occasions but I can honestly say that as I get older I feel an increased inclination for self-preservation! These days I can be found most weekends (weather permitting that is) tootling around the Romney Marsh on a large Jap Thumper (XT or XBR). I honestly have no wish to go much faster than about 50-60 MPH. Besides, this is ample given the road conditions in that area.

As for the "danger freaks" here who boast of speeds approaching 200 mph - I hope as you get older you also get a bit wiser. It's simply not worth risking your own life and that of others who have as much right to use the road as you do.

I guess the most effective way to get the safety message over is to read that awfully sad story about a forum member losing his mate to a horrific bike accident! We have all been there... I have lost 2 close mates to bike accidents over the past 20 years (including a fellow bike cop wiped out by a foreign lorry on the M25). I am always greatly saddened when I hear of a fatal bike RTC because I appreciate it could just as easily been me.

Lets all slow down a bit and ride defensively (not forgetting our "lifesavers")...

To Redboots, condolences to you and your friend's family. Always sad to hear about "one of the family" involved in a tragic accident.

Whether you agree or disagree with Neil's way of sparking off a discussion, you have to agree it's worked. Nothing wrong with a little intelligent debate.

A friend of a friend is due in court for doing close on 90mph (with pillion) in a 30mph residential area. (It was actually my brother who caught him.) Now that's different as it's speed in an inappropriate place and no matter what, no-one in the right mind can condone that.

If a road is suitable and empty, the rider has the appropriate level of competence and the conditions are right then speed in itself is not dangerous, but a calculated risk, just like crossing a busy road is. As MarkLG said, and as anyone who has driven/ridden in Germany will tell you, these high speeds are not just common but the norm. BMW M5's, etc, own the roads out there and the drivers use them in the way they were intended, i.e. at 150mph+ on the autobahns. Even Merc Sprinters will bomb along at 100mph and I didn't see any accidents on the autobahn when I was there.

Admittedly, I wouldn't want to do much more than 80mph on an XT or similar but modern sportsbikes are purposely designed for such use. Get yourself to one of MCN's bike shows and blag a few test rides. I think you'll be impressed with the capabilities of such bikes. The new R6 for example, is nothing more than a thinly disguised race bike and you just wouldn't be getting the best out of it if you didn't thrash it. Also, who is more likely to cause an accident on a lonely country road, a alert rider who is maybe cracking on a bit quicker than the legal limit or some old duffer in his Daewoo Matiz, dawdling along and more interested in the scenery and where to stop for lunch than the road?

While on the subject of riding in the countryside, what gets me is fell walkers, etc, who complain about us spoiling their tranquility and condemn us for speeding in remote areas. They then go off on their little walks, knowing fine well that they can get way out of their depth and someone will risk their life to come and rescue them. At least most of us take responsibility for our own actions.

Thanks for that Neil.

Mick was always safety conscious on his bike. It was me that had the crashed on out trip.
I think he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Thanks one and all for your thoughts.

John

Fyi
 

Here in South America at least, most of these sorts of links are wasted on us. In the internet cafes, the plugins are too outdated to load and run these things, and we don't get the priviledge of loading the updates.

Sensible
 

If I,d wanted to be safe I,d have bought a car!
I buy motorbikes to drive in a irresponsible manner!!! and I,ll live and die by it!!!
Albert theturtleshead

I would imagine from that moronic statement that you also have a long criminal record - Are you really old enough to own a bar? Grow up!

I feel sorry for your potential innocent victim(s)!

If thats all you can bring into the debate I suggest you go elsewhere.

Stupid... stupid boy.

John

No, thanks.
 

Your not a police inspector from Wales by the name of Brun***** by any chance.
Dont think watching a video of someone losing their life is very clever.

Err.. yeah, OK, just stay the hell out of my way!

Jeez
 

What a bunch of old wimmen,this lets us see what happened to the Great in Great Britain.
Well tuck your blouses into your big panties and carry on ladies!!!
Albert theturtleshead

Old Wimmin
 

Nothing to do with being old wimmin mate, but as you get older you do get slightly wiser, assuming you live that long, (though I do sometimes wonder WTF I'm doing and should know better).

I have thrashed my bikes with the best of them and had rides on the public roads that would have got me locked up, (in the UK), had I been caught.
I know of certain corners on the German A3 autobahn that can be taken at 160 mph so long as you keep a modicum of throttle on and don't bottle it.

BUT, I have never had your stated attitude, what was it... .

That just suggests you are pre-pubecent:eek3:... and a bar owner:clap:. So where is this bar?

Time to go to the HU Bar with this B4 we all get banned.

John

I have this niggling suspicion that Albert ,might just be talking a teensy weensy bit tongue in cheek.
[ Anybody who calls his pub the Turtle's Head ,has to have a bent sense of humour - thankfully there are a few nutters still left in this world ].

Oh, c'mon now. As per usual, Albert is just trying to drum (troll) - up a bit of business.

Seriously
 

Come on now boys I,d never post a deliberatly incendiary just to get the old ladies panties in a bunch,I,m just not that kind of guy!
Albert theturtleshead,still enjoying being juvenile at 42

Been away for a week so just thought I'd add to this.

No one has a problem here. We probably all think the same way. It's part of the appeal of bikes.

Now this is where there is a problem. You're more or less saying that you'll ride however you want, where you want and don't care who you take with you when you chuck it down the road. Just because you have a daft attitude doesn't mean everyone else rides like an old lady on a scooter. I won't give speeds and locations away but my ride to work, never mind the Sunday blast across the moors, would give the likes of Brunstrom many sleepness nights. Modern sportsbikes are absolute missiles when used in anger (and it's great fun in the right place) but to deliberately endanger the public by taking your attitude is unacceptable.

Is this really the name of his bar? :rofl:

BTW, what do you ride?

If you allways assume everyone else on the road are idiots you'll never be disappointed, I learnt this the hard way L1 vetibrae in 5 pieces. havent let it put me off though, picked up my new bike last night, xtz750.

Hell I ride bad with out even trying. But I still try not to crash.:mchappy:

Hahaha, can't help but laugh at how seriously Kentfallen and craig76 take themselves. Seriously guys, lighten up. It's obvious that albert crutcher was just taking the piss and you guys have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

Then this thread should be in the HU Bar .. and not here .. Reported and suggested move of thread.

That guy was riding like a fool. he wipped right out on the road changed lanes and never head checked. I guess he thought everybody else would look out and keep him safe. I feel as though you can never trust anybody on the road and you should never assume the lane is clear.

Oh I see, that makes it ok for someone to brag about their reckless riding on the internet, same as it's ok for wankers to post video's of their 189mph rides on urban dual carriageways on YouTube.

Its not a good thing to do its not smart and not much of a show of skills. Your so fast try a track try your skills with some of the best and fast bikes. But the noobies dont after they scrape a friend or two off the road they will stop. Today some fool ran his bike up a two lain road in the hills not far from my home a road I ride all the time nice and twisty. Lost it right in frunt of a blind right turn hit the clift on the right and went flying off the road to the left. The cops had to pull what was left oh him and his bike out of the trees. At that speed he would have kill any one in the left had another rider, a van full of kids, or me.
Had to be a new rider to mess up like that dint make the turn or by the look even try.

Ride safe others seem not to.

Why?
 

Get yourself a Reliant Robin and move directly to the old folks home!!!
Al theturtleshead

What!!!!
 

i drive a robin reliant and i'm only 38!
my theory is :-
he who show's off
comes off!!!
there's many a bold rider and many an old rider but not many old bold rider's!

Off
 

If you never fall off,you ain,t trying hard enough!!!
Al theturtleshead

You really have no idea do you? Go buy yourself something like a TL1000 or an early R1, then you can come and lecture me about how to ride. I didn't say I ride like a Grandma, just don't openly brag about it on the internet.

Anyway, do you even ride? I did ask in this thread what bike you had and you still haven't answered. Come on, tell us a bit about your beast of a ride and let's see a pic of you sitting on it, holding a recent copy of any national newspaper, clearly showing the headline and title of the publication as proof of date taken. I'll eat one of our cats if you can do that and maybe even consider taking you seriously. Otherwise, go and troll somewhere else.

Sorry people but I have the same problem with muppets working for bike mags, who mouth off about road testing the latest litre superbike on already popular biking roads and then print that they had X mph up Y section of road. Result? Traffic cops, born-again wannabe's, chav's on 125's, etc, all over that road for the next 3 months. Yes, you read it right, traffic cops can read!

It's not that the mags or people like Albert Crutcher are doing anything that everyone else isn't already doing, it's the unwanted attention that really pisses everyone off. Biking is one of the last proper adrenaline buzzes left that the Health & Safety nazi's haven't yet got round to ticking off the "Banned" box on their clipboards. Don't give them any more ammunition than they've already got, that's all I'm saying.

Yeah Yeah
 

Hey Grandma,
I,ll let my history here and on Advrider speak for me and my experience.But you take your time,no big rush.I,m sure you,ll catch up eventually.
You could use the big scary motorbike you have,but don,t go too fast now,one of the big bad police men might get you!!!
Al theturtleshead

As expected
 

I would advise everyone reading this in the future to simply have a glance at my post history and then Mr Craig76,s post history,then make you,re own mind up!!
Al theturtleshead.