HELP! NZ Biker down in Croatia! Needs to get to UK for Surgery ASAP!
 

Hi All :helpsmilie:

Need some help as a NZ friend of mine, Deane Holland of Waihi (well known Tatooist and Aprillia Racer in NZ) is on tour in Europe, but within a couple of days got injured on a track day and is now in Rijeka Hospital with a broken collarbone, Ribs and Dislocated Shoulder.

He needs surgery within 4 days and wants that done in the UK. Any ideas! Such as perhaps you know a private pilot who'd be willing to fly him back at a reasonable cost. His wife Heidi is battling with the travel insurance to Air Ambulance him back, but still no decision made.

They will stay with us in North Oxfordshire and we would try and get him into a Banbury or Oxford Hospital for repair.

Thanks


Chris

PS: If anyone is in the area and can give Heidi a little support, that would be excellent!

At the risk of being controversial, what makes him think he's entitled to treatment on the NHS if he's from NZ?

The NHS is for people that have contributed to the system, not health tourists from other countries to come and make use of for free!

If for some reason he is entitled then please accept my apologies.

Obviously I don't know the ins and outs of his case but you wouldn't normally operate on any of those injuries. The shoulder would be relocated in the emergency department, fractured ribs don't require surgery and collar bones are very rarely operated on.

Any helpful posts please?
 

Way to go
 

I did something similar a few years ago in a remote location much further from the UK than Croatia.
With a broken shoulder I took a scheduled flight back to the UK, via the Dubai hub i.e. making a change of airline there. This was as a "walking wounded" case with my arm in a sling - so long as the casualty can walk onto the aircraft then no one really cares.
My injury was operated upon exactly two weeks after the incident occurred.

Thanks
 

I suppose the only good news is they have plenty of cash as its the beginning of their trip??

I got my brother back to the uk with broken bones from west Africa using std plane travel. If it was me I would fill up on pain killers, get a big people carrier to the airport and use the money on a first class ticket with a big reclinable seat.

Croatia is only a short time away. Never knew we had a Aussie/NZ health agreement..lucky for him I guess.

If not try companies at small airports local to you for private planes.

Bare in mind that anything they do off their own back the insurance won't pay for....they have their own systems and workers.

Just read your last post.... Easyjet or Ryan air!, sod that. No room to move or get comfy.

Thanks
 

Biker Down
 

Welovebikes, your commitment to helping your friend and finding others to do the same is admirable. Friendships are really tested in time of need.

As a word or two of inspiration, rosa del desierto and I made it to our ranch in Arizona after she dropped her bike and fractured three toes while riding the trampolin de la muerte, southern Colombia. (an old military road built during Colombia's war with Peru in the 1930s). We actually live in Argentina and were en route to Arizona for a couple month stay at our ranch.

Six weeks ago and a couple days after her fall, a general PARO or strike was called by the coffee growers syndicate and a few miners joined in to close all the roads in and out of our location. We just had to grin and bear it - seeking medical assistance from a combination of local doctors and local shamans.

Not to say three fractured toes are equal to the substantial injuries suffered by your friend, but, here comes the inspirational part - gas and food, neither of which were readily available a couple days after the road blocks were erected were shared with us by locals. And, 15 days later while the roadblocks were still in place, it was a local Colombian who knew the Director of the regional hospital and arranged for an ambulance to run us through the roadblocks by carrying a pass signed by the Director of the hospital.

We were able via ambulance to reach the closest airport and fly out on a small plane to Bogota - and then on to Arizona.

Here is my advice. Don't be so quick to abandon the locals, and Croatia. Perhaps your good friends, Heidi and Deane might want to consider riding out the injuries and allowing their medical insurance to pay for surgery etc right there in Croatia. We have ridden Croatia, it is a wonderful place to be and now a very peaceful country. Excellent medical care can be found, and many times medical insurance companies are more willing to pay in country medical bills.

In rosa del desierto's case, we have to pay all meical bills up front - to be reimbursed once we return to Argentina where we purchased our medical policies, on the other hand all the medical bills generated in Colombia were forwarded directly to our medical insurance company in argentina and we were not out of pocket.

Just some thoughts and the inspiration is: Croatia is not a bad place to recover and maybe , just maybe, your friends insurance company may pay rent for your friends even while he is an outpatient.

Our prayers are with you , Heidi and Deane - rosa del desierto says - "this too will pass"

Just an after thought for your friend's consideration....: it was also local Colombians who found safe parking for our two motorcycles and - even with the roadblocks in place - managed to get the Director of the closest border DIAN to extent our temporary vehicle import permits for more time then we would ever need! "Shelter in place" would be the advice I would give Deane and Heidi if they were my friends.

xfiltrate

Probably the most stupid thing of heard on this site !!!
 

I'll have to ask the Barmy Army this has they are loaded into our Ambulances by the dozens & taken off to our Hospitals for treatment, after night on the piss after a game,doh I suppose we can ask the British Sailors if there entitled to our hospital & rescue facilities before we pull them out of the drink !:innocent:

I really think a retraction of that Statement is in order ! :nono:

As mentioned above, we - the UK - have a reciprocal health agreement in place with New Zealand [and Australia], which means citizens from both countries are legally entitled to free publicly-funded health from each others' national health services.

Thank goodness the agreement exists, because guess what? .. in 2006 I crashed on a gravel down at the bottom of South Island, NZ, which resulted in similar injuries to Deane's. I broke my collarbone in two places; ribs and fingers broken .. and worst of all, I managed to smash-up my left wrist pretty badly.

The Kiwi system, however, did me proud:

• A free 80 km St John Ambulance emergency ride to Invercargill Hospital
• Superb in-house specialist orthopaedic surgery + anaesthetist services to fix my wrist - free
• Excellent inpatient nursing care and accommodation for four days and nights. [Shame about the grub though, which was nearly, but not quite, as bad as the stuff dished-out in our UK hospitals! ;)] – again all free
• Top-notch follow-up outpatient treatment .. totally free.

I say to all Kiwis [and Aussies]: as a UK taxpayer all my life, please make full use of our NHS system if you need it. As far as I'm concerned, you are all more than welcome.

Thanks

Keith
.

Chris,
Get him to A&E asap on arrival.
Say nothing about where the accident occurred.
Just answer questions as circumspectly as possible.
A&E staff, in my experience, are very good about this aspect. Their function is to save life and limb and not be concerned about the cause, but medical diagnosis will be interested in the cause in as far as it assists with the diagnosis.

Lovely words
 

To Paul and Keith
 

And when at A and E, don't volunteer that injury happened a few days ago. I recall trying to check myself in once (can't exactly remember what I did: twisted knee?) and they asked when it happened and I said 2 days ago. They told me to get lost as the event has to have occurred within the last 24 hours for an A and E doctor to see me.

Good luck with sorting the situation.

Thanks
 

Just thought. My normal uk bike insurance does NOT cover events like track days. Also, many travel insurances don't cover injuries sustained from falling off a bike over 125cc. I haven't got the small print of my travel insurance to hand, but I'd be very surprised if track days are covered ("dangerous" activities/sports etc).

I like the earlier post about picking the man and his Blade up off the track and depositing him on a road :scooter:

Regarding Reciprocal Health Agreements with the UK, you can find the information here

Non-EEA country-by-country guide - Healthcare abroad - NHS Choices

Guess who I work for!

One that used to catch a lot of people out at this time of year is the fact that the reciprocal health agreement with the Isle of Man lapsed for a while, that could cause a lot of expense if you fell off when visiting the TT and didn't have "overseas" health insurance.

Luckily (for us Brits) it's back in place!

Regarding travel insurance, always look closely as the "not insured if riding a bike over 125cc" clause is usually in regard to bikes that you hire. My policy has a completely separate clause that states I am covered on any size bike as long as it's my own bike. The two clauses are in completely separate parts of the policy, so not obvious at first.

Thanks Carto and Welcome
 

did you get my private message? If not pm me and I will ring my friend with a plane and licence.....

A piss poor attitude !!!

Reciprocal health agreements | Ministry of Health NZ

In short;

Reciprocal health agreements.

New Zealand has reciprocal health agreements with Australia and the United Kingdom (UK). Under each, certain services may be publicly funded for people covered by the agreements. Those services may be funded to the same extent as for a national of the country they’re visiting or staying in temporarily.

xenophobic?
interesting assumption as I am married to a non UK national! Also, I didn't mention anything about nationality, race, colour, religion or anything else that would possibly quantify someone as xenophobic. I said people who have paid into the system. They might be white, black or green and come from mars.


note the part in the recipricol arrangement

for a condition that arose after arrival into New Zealand, OR became, or without treatment would have become, acutely exacerbated after arrival.

for New Zealand substitute UK, as it's a recipricol agreement

BTW I have worked in the NHS for 25 years. I also worked in aeromed for several years bringing back damaged holidaymakers from abroad, so I probably have a bit more insight into this the some of the more hysterical, but not entirely unexpected, reactions to my post. I have also seen many members of the 'barmy army', or just regular holiday makers who have come back from abroad (even from Europe) having had to pay for treatment, received no treatment, or received extremely substandard treatment. The main moral of the story, is get good insurance that covers you for everything you will be doing.

whether he gets treatment will depend on how carefully the hospital he visits checks peoples entitlement. I would suggest avoiding the London ones as they are the most keen as they suffer most from the health tourist issue. I have seen people present at my hospital for treatment because they have been turned away by London Hospitals.

My statement stands and I will not be retracting it. It is not an opinion, it is a statement of fact. If you don't like it, well, sorry, that's reality for you. It is not a service for foreign nationals who have injured themselves in other countries who should be carrying the appropriate insurance for the activities they are taking part in to be either treated in that country or aeromedded back home. Maybe they don't recognise the term health tourist because they don't get them in New Zealand, but in this country it is a significant problem.


I wish your friend well in his recovery, but it is not the responsibility of the NHS to deal with that. It is already stretched to treat those that are entitled. Whether he gets treatment or not is of course, a different matter. He may, (in fact, probably will) but he needs to be prepared for the fact that equally he may not.

So, with regard to the points made by those employed in the UK medical world, the patient should have a back up plan to go for private medical treatment should the NHS not provide support, for whatever reason (one persons' view of an emergency is not necessarily that of the professionals).

As for the anecdote about track day riding and removing crashed bikes onto public roads: this type of tale has been circulating for many years. It is also said that the insurance companies have representation at track days who take note of the road registered machines being used on track to prevent this concept of insurance fraud.
In general, there is much increased attention to preventing all forms of insurance fraud in the UK.

These are my facts
 

For what it is worth, my broken arm received surgery two weeks after the break occurred, 4 days after I referred myself to A&E and two days after I was admitted to a ward bed. I was discharged from the hosp 3 days after the day of the operation and, at present, I still receive physio 4 years after the event.

Apologies to anyone who is an A and E receptionist (or works at Huddersfield Royal Infirmary...), but it's probably down to the caring nature (or not) or the local NHS Trust policies that the "pitbull at the door" has to/chooses to implement. In my experience, once the receptionist has been negotiated, the care from the doctors and nurses in NHS establishments has always been 100%.

have to admit, your original post suprised me. receptionists don't have the power to turn people away. Even some triage nurses are reluctant and where they do have authority to turn people away it is within very strict, clearly defined protocols. The best you can generally do is advise people on a more appropriate course of action.

2 days is recent enough to be seen in A&E, indeed, for minor injuries we would generally expect people to have done the basics like taking pain killers and resting the limb to see if it got better.

The line on what is appropriate or not is a grey one but I would say around 40% of what presents to A&E shouldn't be there, for example 6 month history of non traumatic back pain, or my all time fave, someone who called an ambulance out for a paper cut!! But for your injury and time scale I would have said A&E was an entirely appropriate place to be.

Biker down
 

How about an update on the injured? It is my opinion that peace and quiet rather than stress contribute to the healing of the soul, mind and body.

Are Deane and Heidi remaining in Croatia or being evacuated?

Perhaps, obtaining funding for medical treatment from Deane's contracted private insurer, while he is a foreigner in Croatia might be less stressful then the proposed alternative. Once the Deane qualifies for British care the private insurer might or might not bail. Please check fine print on policy.

xfiltrate

I didn't realise that Croatia was part of the UK.

Wishing the injured rider a speedy recovery all the same.

There are some Croatian guys over on ADVRider. Let me know if I can connect you with them if local help is still required.

The blade story is funny....but, let's be honest, it's fraud. P.S I'm not a totally honest person...just jumping on the pedant boat for five mins.

I have to say, I´m rather shocked by your response. I would have thought you could have left your politics at the door and offered some useful advice to people who are obviously in need of it.

Given that you had to bring politics into this, I would ask you to provide some actual facts and statistics on this so called ´health tourism´because I am unable to find any. I am interested to know if this an actual problem or is nothing more than part of the recent onslaught from the right-wing gutter press to deflect blame away from the banking crisis and mismanagment of the economy, onto the usual scapegoat - immigrants.

I did a bit of googling, but only came up with reports that no one actual knows how much so called "health tourism" costs the NHS per year. As far as I was concerned, anyone from an EU or commonweath countries with healthcare agreements, the NHS bills the government of the patient, and so costs are covered in this respect. As a sidenote, the government did claim the figure of 11m GBP as the lowest estimate (i.e. made up) cost of health tourism to the UK taxpayer, later they gave a rather vauge figure of £70m and £300m, any of those figuers set against 'efficiency savings´(i.e. cuts), of 20 billion GBP, perhaps you are barking up the wrong tree mate.

Interestingly, in study here, it states that, in actual fact, so called ´health tourism´actually benefits the NHS in terms of profit, it´s a long read, but worth it perhaps if you feel so strongly as to turn up here and start bringing tabloid politics into a thread that is quite clearly a call for help from people who do not have so many options left. For me, that is very "unBritish", but then maybe my values of Britishness are somewhat dated.

Best regards,
rtw

If you read my previous posts properly you will see that my view is based on my own experience of working in the NHS, not that of the papers, which I don't actually read anyway for the very reasons you suggest.

As also stated, my wife is from overseas, eastern europe in fact, as are many of my friends and acquaintances. One of my best friends from my university days is muslim, as are many more of my friends and acquaintances, so I am actually quite sensitive to the gutter press' ill thought out, ill judged and frequently inaccurate reporting on immigration and the current hysteria over muslims and eastern europeans, none of which is relevant to this subject anyway.

Your post is irrelevant to the discussion as my post was not based on any particular view I may or may not have on immigration. Neither was it suggesting any value on the cost to the NHS. It was a statement of fact that someone who is not entitled to NHS care should not expect it and that the treatment of people who are not entitled has a cost (of, shall we agree, an unknown amount) which has to be found from an already overstretched service.

I would have thought it was useful advice to know that, after the difficulty and expense of getting to the UK, he may find he was told he is not eligible for treatment (as stated in the post of mine you have quoted). I would quite like to know that was a possibility before I set off. The NHS is tightening up on these things so you cannot assume treatment will be given.

Am I unbritish, well, I guess that depends on how you view over 20 years of service in her Majesty's Armed Forces!

My daughter lives in NZ and I have been a frequent visitor over the last few years.
I wouldn't dream of not having full insurance irrespective of any agreement between countries. What you certainly don't need in any medical situation is someone having to look through the bureaucracy & lying about what's happened!

What's so odd about this case is the accident occurred in Croatia and not the UK.
What exactly can't they do in Croatia that we can do in the UK? Apart from provide free treatment?
If that's the only answer for travelling to the UK, then quite clearly this is an abuse of our NHS rather than having an insurance company pay for private treatment - either in the UK or Croatia. If insurance has been taken out, why not go to Germany?

Fair points.

It's been 5 days since this post was made. What is the state of play with regard to Deane's treatment?

That was my thought process also, except for the bit about Germany - why Germany in particular (although the Croats have had a close relationship with that country, in the past)?


If it was me, I wouldn't answer that until the dust has settled and there is an "end-state".

Its an interesting aspect of this discussion to look (where possible) at the originating locations of those leaving comments or likes and how those are reflected in the nature of the posts.

Biker down?
 

I second Chris's request for an update on Deane's treatment and condition.

thanks xfiltrate

Update
 

Not quite the (medical) endstate, but near enough for most people.

Back to my physio. :thumbup1:

Sorry
 

Check back in here and I think you will find that this was always on the cards - from the viewpoint of the insurance company it was always going to be that way.

To contrast for a moment with my earlier, brief, description of my circumstances - I was injured in a far away, foreign land and made my own decision to fly myself back to the UK for the NHS to sort out (as above, I am still receiving physio treatment, renewed recently 4 years after the fateful day).
Such a decision is easy so long as you are a "walking wounded" - stretcher cases etc would be a much more difficult case.
No insurance company was involved and I was very circumspect in answering questions in A&E, although I did have a letter of referral from a doctor based in the "country of injury" along with X rays of the damage done - no local hospital could handle the type of injury.
There were no dramas at the UK A&E, being a loyal subject of Her Majesty the Queen, back in country with a bit of a problem (Moggys' info applies).

Folks can draw their own lessons applicable to their own circumstances, as they wish.

glad they got sorted. Probably better back in NZ with familiar surroundings, family and friends.

Biker in New Zealand
 

thanks for the update, based on my experiences with Kiwis, namely Jeff Condon Globebusters.com guide, now safari camp manager in Tanzania, the Kiwi is comfortable just about anywhere in the world, makes new friends easily and usually has an estranged or far away relationship with their extended families and like it that way.

Just as I might be projecting here, so should we all be aware of our own cultural bias.

Good the medical treatment has been sorted and we look forward to meeting welovebikes, Deane and Heidi on the road.

Meanwhile we are at our ranch in Flagstaff, AZ and looking forward to the visits of fellow overlanders.

xfiltrate

NHS is the world's best healthcare system, report says | Society | The Guardian

Fascinating article on the NHS. Ranks #1 in everything except survivability.

Page 8 pretty much sums it up. Where would you rather be diagnosed for prostate cancer, the US with a 99% 5 year survival rate or the UK with a 69% survival rate? http://www.cancer.org/acs/groups/con...spc-027766.pdf

Glad you re OK.

always assuming you can afford the insurance of course, which a lot can't

your taking a rather simplistic and selective view there. You would need to consider other factors involved such as delayed presentation by patients etc. UK rates were around the median of other European countries, all of which lagged someway behind the states. Poor survivability is only partly related to standards of treatment. Early detection is the principal factor in survivability.

as the report goes on to say

The authors say that the healthcare system cannot be solely blamed for this issue, which is strongly influenced by social and economic factors.

It's not a perfect system, it has it's faults, and innevitably sometimes mistakes are made, but as a universal healthcare system free at the point of delivery, it is a world leader.

Having read this whole thread, I felt compelled to say something myself in support of above. Moggy's perfectly entitled to his opinion. He does not deserve to be attacked personally for his honest held beliefs...

I am becoming absolutely sick and tired of over-sensitive people who are oddly offended by FACTUAL words statements and mere honest held opinions and beliefs. Our hard won freedoms (in NZ as well as here in the UK) are under threat because of this kind of nonsense.

STICKS AND STONES........ What ever happened to that?

Actually I believe that the English (Anglo-Saxon) speaking countries of the world (UK,USA,Canada, Aussie, NZ etc) need to stick closely together in this violent world our failed political masters have created for us all. We should get out of the EU and return to the old British Commonwealth instead.

I personally have no problem whatsoever with a New Zealand Citizen using the NHS for free. Lets just consider their huge contribution in both world wars where their men came to the rescue of the mother country. Just look at what the Ausies and New Zeakanders did for us in Gallippoli.

That said, the NHS is heavily burdened by huge numbers of aliens who have no right to free NHS treatment. Apparently the majority of health tourists arrive from India, Pakistan and West Africa. It is these parasites who we need to stop NOT Anglo-Saxon New Zealander's who are in the main exactly the same as Brits and direct relations in many cases.

Of course I'm not suggesting for one moment that all citizens from these lands are parasites. Thought I'd better add that in case my words caused someone offence!!!!!!!!!!!

I know 3 people working in the NHS near Heathrow Airport and some of the stories I have been told infuriate me. Apparently there is a huge problem with pregnant NIGERIAN women turning up demanding free treatment. They get a taxi from the airport straight to the hospital. Most use the identity of a family member already living in the UK with the right of free treatment.

I wish the New Zealand guy (Deane) a speedy recovery and he's most welcome to use our NHS if he so desires (in my humble opinion)....

In any case the NHS is a dying service. I honestly doubt it will exist 15 years from now. Our masters know this and want us all to buy health insurance instead because it's less of a burden on the government. The UK is already bankrupt - It's paying it's bills by printing money and creating money by computer keyboard. Our public debt is heading for 1.6 Trillion pounds. That's a £30,000 debt for every man women and child living in the UK (think about that). Our politicians have been maxing out on the countries credit cards for nearly 30 years. We have ALL been living on CREDIT. Do the maths........ It's not just the UK either, the USA is also in exactly the same position as is most of the so called civilized world. Yes it's true we're all F*****!!!!!!

At the end of the day, I'm entitled to my opinion on this issue and others here are entitled to theirs. Lets all just Calm down............bier

In response to kentfallen

Just an aside - India, Pakistan and West Africa (well the countries you mean in West Africa)- all part of the Commonwealth -all contributed to the 2nd World War effort- maybe you would like to read this article for a start.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8201717.stm. All got exploited massively by the British Empire at some point in their history, with some pretty apalling atrocities along the way.

There are exploiters of systems at all levels - but it is usually the little people that get the bad press. Some of the biggest exploiters of systems are the multinationals and mega rich, but they have the power to manipulate the 'press', and it benefits them to set the poorer against each other- 'Divide and Conquer'

One can only hope that in time the human race evolves sufficently enough to forgoe its tribal nature and parochalism and realise that we are all inhabitants of a small piece of rock orbiting a minor star, and ultimately to ensure our survival as a species we will need to start working together, and not apart and against one another.

kentfallen, when I first read this thread I didn't really think about Deane's ethnicity. I thought the discussion was around his nationality.


There's a fair chance that he's white, coming from NZ and with a English sounding name. But maybe he isn't.


I don't know if you've visited NZ but there are quite a few Maori / black / Asian people living there. And I bet there's more than one Maori / black / Asian guy called Deane who rides a motorbike living there.


So assuming, just for this discussion, that Deane isn't a white guy, would you still be as welcoming for him to use the NHS for free?

I thought kentfallen raised a good point: if you are travelling without insurance, what responsibility do the taxpayers of your host country have towards your medical care?

I've read and seen many stories in the media of other Canadians getting injured while visiting the neighbouring USA, and being hit with extraordinary bills because they were travelling without medical coverage for the US. Being a bit paranoid I have very good travellers insurance that provides up to $5 million worth of coverage while travelling in other countries.

Really pleased that Deane is being treated.
Reading back on your original post, it sounded very urgent, almost life threatening. Glad it wasn't the case :)

I don't think that's what he's saying though.


He's saying that Deane should be able to access free medical treatment in the UK as a NZ citizen, based on the assumption that he's "anglo saxon."


Kentfallen seems to be saying that only citizens of countries where the majority of the population is black or brown shouldn't be able to access free medical treatment in the UK.

We call race baiters like you "xxxxxxx" in the US. Unsure what they call "people" like you in your country. Stop it.

and what do you call 'white supremacists'?

If you just want to call me names then go for it champ, but I'd be much more interested in hearing from you exactly how I've misrepresented kentfallen's comments.


Oh, and I used quotation marks as, surprisingly, I was quoting someone. As you don't seem to be quoting anyone on this thread I'm wondering what you're aiming for there?

I feel this thread has run it's course. Deano is seemingly now in good medical hands. An expletive has been removed (I must admit I thought it was quite a lame insult, but in US English it's apparently rather rude...)

Some of those that are left contributing are now hurling personal insults. The world is a better place without these, so I'm closing this thread.

Sorry about that.