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Do the TF185 and TS185 share the same motor?
Hi all, I have recently taken on a Tf185 and was wondering, Does the TF185 and TS185 share the same motor? I can only find TS185 rebuild kits and dont want to buy it then find there are subtle differences between the 2 motors. Please help, I have been reading flat out and cant seem to find a clear answer.
Kind regards, Rhys Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk |
Hi Rhys. I've had many of both and still have two TSs.
The TF & TS 185 motors are almost identical. You probably know the TF (Suzuki called it the MudBug) was for farm work and had some minor tuning and gearing changes to make it more suitable for that. The barrel porting is different, especially the exhaust port, and it has a smaller carb. This have a noticeable increase in low end torque. It has a smaller front sprocket and larger rear sprocket for lower and slower gearing for climbing steep hills, and for dawdling behind walking herds of livestock. Other than that, the motors are the same. The TS185ER was about 18.5hp and the TF was just over 13hp. I had my TFs for dairy farm work and they were just the best farm bikes. I had a TS barrel that I'd had ported slightly giving about 20hp, with a correctly jetted carb attached. I used to use this for trail riding. When I was going trail riding, I'd undo the exhaust studs, head studs, plug lead, and air filter boot on the TF motor and pull the barrel and carb off. The tuned TS barrel and carb would go on giving a decent increase in power. I could do it in about 10-15 minutes. Another tip with these motors is NEVER run them on pre-mix fuel, except for the first start after a rebuild. The CCI oil injection system feeds into two points. One is directly to the piston, and the other to the left main crank bearing and the big end bearing directly. They will run for a surprising amount of time on pre-mix but these two bearings WILL fail in time. Also the CCI system automatically varies the oil to fuel ratio according to the load on the motor, from a low of about 110:1 up to about 25:1 under full throttle. You get less carbon and oil residue build-up on the piston, exhaust port and inside the exhaust pipe and silencer. Hope this helps. Where are you? The TF was sold mainly in New Zealand and Aussie. Best regards Nigel in NZ. |
Cheers Nigel, that's all very helpful [emoji106]. I love how you were swapping between setups for different applications.
I might run with the Ported Ts barrel and carb, sounds like nice little upgrade. What size piston/ring were you running? And how much did you have the barrel ported? Sorry for all the questions, I might have a few more over the coming weeks. Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk |
I had a number of these bikes, usually at least two at a time as working bikes, so they would have had various Suzuki pistons and rings. We could only get Std., 0.5mm & 1.0mm oversize in New Zealand.
As far as the porting went, I did it myself. I made sure all the ports in the cast iron barrel matched the alloy, smoothed the alloy in the inlet piston port and reed valve port, knife-edged the transfers and enlarged the exhaust port, with a small T-port. Always happy to answer questions. Cheers Nigel Marx in NZ |
Having two bikes would definitely be handy, Somday I hope to have a second engine as parts, and also have the confidence to take on such a procedure as you describe. Very impressive
I think I'll go 1mm os, maybe even on the stock TF barrel, if I have no luck finding a Ts donor. I went ahead and dismantled the entire bike today. I labeled everything as I went and bagged it. I thought I was being careful but as always I had 3 items left over haha. I'm now unsure where they belong. If I was to send through some pics do you think you could have a guess? Oh! And I'm is South Australia [emoji106] Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk |
Yes, post any pictures.
Another point to check is the swingarm bushes. They wear quite quickly. Cheers mate Nigel in NZ |
It's ok, crisis averted. I worked out it was the brake pedal spring, and a couple of other frame bolts. No biggie.
Thanks for the tip, I checked the bushes and they are still in pretty good nick. I'll attach some pic anyway lol, might aswellhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3548f87959.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...08555071dc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3b4307fce7.jpg Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk |
TS185 Special
Can't help myself, I love TS185's, so here's a pic of my ISDT Qualifier bike, a 72 TS18J with Wiseco - or was it Webco? high compression head, Wiseco piston, heavily ported, Bassani pipe, extended and braced swingarm with Boge/Mullholland shocks, Preston Petty fenders, fork damper rod extenders for an additional inch travel, alloy handlebars, everything not REQUIRED thrown out, and probably a few things I've forgotten. It's supposed to have a Preston Petty headlight but I think it was off for a repair at this point.
It worked REALLY well, and of course was super light. At one of the Qualifiers got fastest time of the day in a special test through the woods, and finished on Gold. This would have been in 1973. |
Great reading, and cool photos. Memories of a TS100 I once had..
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk |
Finaly got around to taking the head apart yesterday. The previous owner said he replaced the piston around 10yrs ago, and is 1.0 oversize, any commentary on the conditionqould be greatly appreciated.
Kind regards, Rhys https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...16f05bec0e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3732e511bd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6ec7043771.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...38ef117ec0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ee2e3f1f60.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...256ccaaab1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...eca6ae4810.jpg Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk |
generally looks pretty good, but the blue on the crankshaft is very weird!
I'd either clean it and put it back together, or give it a good clean, a very very light hone and fresh rings. Of course first measure to make SURE it's all within tolerance, but should be fine. |
Looks pretty good to me too. Not much blow by on the piston which suggests the rings are good but as Grant suggests it would be a good idea to check the end gaps before reusing them - or, if you can get suitable ones, replacing them. If you are replacing them (and they are almost a service item with two strokes) a very light hone would give them the best chance of bedding in but you need to remove almost nothing. Certainly new little ends - and circlips - and have a close look at the gudgeon pin for wear.
The crank looks ok although the bluing on the flywheels does seem odd. Because of that I'd check the con rod side shake to get an idea of the state of the bearing. Check the rocking side to side movement at the little end of the con rod - anything up to about 1.5 / 1.6mm suggests the bearing is ok. Other than that I'd be happy with how that looks. |
Sorry for the late response, I dont get time very often, but I really appreciate all your help and advice.
I decided to replace the piston and rings, then lightly honed the cylinder. I then stripped the head, and it is now painted and back on the motor. I will post up some pictures soon, but for now I'll show how the bike itself is going. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3b13be2c8a.jpg Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk |
You've got a posher shed than me! :rofl:
This is one I'm just finishing off - https://i.postimg.cc/NjDJR5XQ/IMG-7850.jpg |
I wish that was my shed, it's my spair room lol.
Really nice bike mate nice work [emoji106] Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk |
Is that a YDS 5?
I have a 1979 TF 185 and it's fitted with a 12/28 sprocket set - don't know if that's the factory fit. It doesn't like going more than about 65kph so i'd like to gear it up. Doesn't look like i can get a 13t on the front but What did the TS185 have on it? 38T for a rear is already pretty small |
You said 12/28 but then said 38 so I will assume 12/38.
Sorry I don't remember stock gearing, but a TS185 will easily do 70 mph in stock trim. They do REV (somewhere around 7500 is power peak) and perhaps it's just revving / making more noise than you expect? Your dealer should be able to tell you what stock sizes are on the TS vs TF. A little searching for parts fiches found https://www.partsfish.com/oemparts/a...c/transmission and it says 12t front is stock on the R, and 38 rear https://www.partsfish.com/oemparts/a...881/rear-wheel So that sounds like you just need to rev it! |
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Thanks for posting that info :) |
er, yeah! Suzuki had the very best oiling system available, the direct bearing lube went a long way to their reputation for reliability and longevity. On my TS185 RACE bike, I adjusted the pump higher - to the max setting, but still variable according to throttle opening as it was often plonking along at low speeds, and ran pump gas. As I recall, the standard Suzuki race kits simply said wire the pump full open, and run straight pump gas. The factory TR500 I raced ran this way and worked fine, as did a TR250 I know, and my own TR-ized T20.
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Note that the Suzuki bearings that were direct oil injected, had a shield to keep the oil IN the bearing, with of course lots leaking past to lube elsewhere - but that shield would largely PREVENT oil from getting TO that bearing from the PREMIX.
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I got it as a very tired "field bike", it was a real death trap, lol
Didn't keep it long, and I had my street-legal looking DT100 so I just went back to that (the oil pump on the DT never gave me problems, but lots of people hated them at the time) |
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You can remove the oil pump and run Yamahas on pre mix as all they do is pump the oil into the inlet manifold and, essentially, make two stroke mix there. There are oil ways drilled through the castings to the various engine bearings and excess oil drips down into them. Not so on Suzukis and Kawasakis from that era - their oil pumps split the feed, with some going to the inlet Yamaha style, but the second feed line pumps directly to the engine bearings. Take those pumps off and, as mentioned, the bearings will eventually run dry and fail. All of that supposes the pump actually works of course. Mine, it turns out, was only putting out 1/3 the oil it was supposed to. This was the result a few months after that picture was taken - https://i.postimg.cc/Hxc0XcNp/IMGA0002s.jpg Getting the bits of piston out of the crankcase required a full engine strip. It's now back together again but in the meantime I've learnt more than I ever wanted to know about Yamaha oil pumps. :rofl: |
Carnage! I'm sworn off of 2-smokes these days, apart from my TY175 which I want to convert to electric sometime anyway, lol
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That doesn't look like oil pump issue to me... usually not enough oil just seizes the piston. That looks like bad jetting or timing, most likely jetting. Be sure the carb is set correctly to stock and of course check timing too.
GOOD thing about Yamaha oil pumps is you can dispense with them easily and just run premix. (That's the only good thing mind you). |
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The rule of thumb back when I used to run these things in anger was that hole in piston = timing too advanced, and that was my first thought. The dial gauge however told me different. It was set according to the book a few hundred miles before and still was at the book setting (1.8mm) when I checked it afterwards. The jetting - main, pilot, needle, clip, cutaway etc - also was exactly what the book said it ought to be. So maybe the compression was too high? The book said 7.5:1 but a day with a burette came up with both cylinders a fraction under 7.0:1. Squish band was 1.2mm, plugs were NGK 9's - a grade harder than necessary, and exhausts were factory standard. I'd only been doing 45mph on a trailing throttle when the piston holed. By all the numbers that should not have happened. I contacted a well regarded two stroke tuner about 50 miles from me and took the engine to him. His first thought was an air leak causing a weak mixture and did a leak down test. A couple of small gasket leaks showed up but nothing serious enough to point the finger at. Next suspect was the cylinder head profile on the affected cylinder. The head had been reworked by a well known - probably the best known - two stroke engineers in the UK to repair some previously existing (before I got the bike) chamber damage and the correct profile hadn't been restored. He remachined the head and tightened up the squish band slightly. That's where I am at present. I'll see how it feels on the road but I think a few dyno runs to check fueling and timing will be in order come the spring. Back with oil pumps, I was surprised to find out exactly how little oil mine was putting out. It looked perfectly ok and the bikes had only done 12k miles from new. There is a Yamaha service bulletin about oil pump output (as there is for Suzuki pumps) and, armed with those figures, I built a test rig to check mine. That's how I know how little it's pumping. There is someone who rebuilds these things as a 'side hustle' but he's swamped with work (or, I suppose, he could just be very slow!). I contacted him in March and he said August. That's now slipped to January. I mentioned the pump problem to a friend in the US who has a barn full of old Yamaha stuff and he sent me over three more pumps to test. Two of them put out exactly the correct amount but one was way down - even worse than mine. All four of them looked exactly the same externally - no damage or anything to tell them apart. I've used one of the good ones for the rebuild but I now have two non functional pumps and need to figure out why they don't work. Leaking internal seals are, I'm told, the usual suspect but we'll see. |
You’ve been doing your homework!
I presume zero sign of any issue on the other cylinder? I look forward to hearing more! |
Interestingly (to me anyway!) the other cylinder shows no sign of problems. Plug is the correct colour and there are zero marks on the piston - no blow by or anything. As there should be (or not) after 300 miles really. I'd taken both cylinders to the hotshot engineers for repairs just before Covid hit last year - the previous owner had really 'done a number' on the internals. He rebored one and resleeved the second. The problem cylinder was the ... no, not the resleeved one as you might guess, but the rebored one.
While I was waiting (they took nearly six months!) I had the crank rebuilt and paid for some new OE pistons / rings by mortgaging my wife :rofl: I got it on the road this time last year, did a couple of hundred miles and put it away for the winter. This spring I checked it over, did a couple of short trips and then one 25 miler. The piston holed about 1/4 mile from home so fortunately it was a short push! The only thing that - pre hole anyway - distinguished between the cylinders was that the 'faulty' one constantly ran about 10C hotter than the other one on my IR thermometer. That was on my list to investigate when the problem happened. As I've said before, the idea is to ride the bike to Morocco. The trip was meant to be last year, then this year and now next year - all Covid postponements but perhaps fortuitous in the circumstances. It was meant to be a solo trip but the friend who supplied me with the oil pumps said he'd like to come along and bought another YDS6 for himself. He's going to ship it over and we'll go on one each. The bike he bought came with recent dealer receipts for $1200 of engine rebuild work. He managed 55 miles on it before the clutch thrust bearing broke up, jamming and wrecking the clutch basket and the primary drive. Fortunately he had enough parts to rebuild it himself but that's a grand total of around 375 miles so far for two wrecked engines. On that basis we're going to need around 15 bikes for the trip! :rofl: The picture below was Photoshopped together to show Then and Now, but as time goes on I'm more convinced that Zen and How might be a better title. :( https://i.postimg.cc/bwMbCxCS/70-20a.jpg |
Hmmm... 10C hotter on one side is a LOT wrong. In the absence of anything obvious thus far, I'd also be looking at piston clearances, exhaust pipe obstruction - baffles, carb synch, and worry about crank seals - was the cylinder on the side where the outer crank seal is against air/ignition?
Love the then and now photos - hope to see more when you get there! good luck |
Attention Neil!
I've forwarded the link to this story to a good friend who is a former professional 250 privateer rider on TZs and has one of the finest collections of Yamaha 2-stroke twins you'll ever find. He restores them professionally now and is a meticulous mechanic . I'm sure he will have some input.
It's nice seeing the old thread still has some life. Best regards Nigel in NZ |
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Yes, I agree about the temperature difference and that was under active investigation when the piston holed. Whatever was causing it wasn't the obvious stuff - I'd checked that as mentioned above. I was quite specific about piston clearances when I had the cylinder work done. Yamaha say 1.5 thou and that's the figure I gave the engineering co. Not being one to take this on trust I checked it when I got everything back and my measurements came out at between 1.6 and 1.7 thou on both sides. I don't have pro grade measuring equipment so there may have been some slight errors in that but it seemed near enough to what it should be to put my mind at ease. The engine specialist checked it (once a new piston had gone in), came up with 1.8 thou and he was happy with that. Crank seals were new on both sides. You can't get OE seals (or I couldn't find any) so it has to be aftermarket, but there is a YDS specialist supplier in Scotland and the seals (plus a lot of other bits) came from him. Because of the centre labyrinth seal you have to leak down test the whole engine - you can't do it one side at a time. The seals passed that test. The faulty cylinder is on the primary drive side so oil would be sucked in if the seal was faulty. Often that results in a one cylinder smokescreen but there was no evidence of that. Exhausts are std - as you can see from the picture - so no half developed expansion boxes setting up obscure pressure harmonics. The inside of the silencers had been cleaned out both chemically and physically - and a messy job it was. I got about a kilo of carbon out using a kind of wire flail I welded up. Baffles are std, cleaned back to bare metal, and most importantly, in there. Carb balance is a bit more of an issue. It's easy to balance the carbs themselves - the lolly stick method works well and I've used it for years (decades) on two strokes. You can't really use vacuum gauges on these old two strokes. However that's the idle balance. Keeping that balance when you twist the throttle has (and is) proving more tricky. The cable is a one into three via a junction box type and is inconsistent. I have three cables at present - the OE Yamaha one that was on the bike, a specialist co (Venhill) custom replacement and a DIY one that I soldered together myself. All three of them behave similarly - the carb balance varies depending on cable routing and handlebar position. I'm still messing around with this as it's unacceptable but I have a feeling I'm missing the obvious. While in that area I'm currently looking closely at fuel flow. The carb jets may be std but if there was some restriction before that point the cylinder could still run weak. So everything from the tank filter to the float chamber is being tested. Similarly the oil flow from the tank to the pump. No point having a good pump if the oil feed isn't fast enough. I'm going to resolve the cable issue one way or another as carb balance does need to be maintained, and then it's going to be gently gently to get a few more miles on it before it goes on the dyno. That hopefully should identify any fueling weaknesses and optimise the ignition settings. In the meantime I've been trying to get some luggage capacity sorted out and spent a happy few days (!) welding up a custom fit luggage rack. I just hope I get a chance to use it. |
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And by the way, it's all new jets, especially needle and needle jet? And float level to spec?
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I went looking for new jets and needles a few weeks ago but much of the stuff is out of stock (temporarily I hope) at the UK Mikuni suppliers. I don't want to use aftermarket stuff - Keyster for example - as they seem to be of variable quality. OE points are quite reliable and I'm happy to stick with them. I'm not one for chucking it all out and fitting some aftermarket electronic 'fix' as often the fix is more unreliable than what you had to begin with. Plus, the only one I'm aware of that's available for this old stuff is aimed at track use and junks the generator in favour of total loss ignition. That would restrict the bike's range even more than reversing the slides. :rofl: |
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Backwards slides: love it! :) Jets: Try US Mikuni? Or even Japan? Points, yes, they work fine :) But I'd carry a spare set, and condensers too. |
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I've only ever had one (provable) case where a condenser failed and that was where the lead snapped off where it was soldered to the can (yes, it was Lucas!). The car started misfiring and over about a mile or so ground to a halt with the points covered in ash. Cleaning it off got me another mile (etc). Quite how often condensers fail internally I'm not sure but they tend to come into the category of 'magical' therefore suspect. They're cheap enough so they get replaced but if they were £150 each I suspect their 'failure' rate would drop. |
CCI oil injection
Hi Nigel I live in the same part of the world as you.
You mentioned how the oil infection is important on a Suzuki 185 TF/ TS engine, and not to run premix I recently bought a go kart for the grandkids and it has a 185 TF engine on it and no oil injection. Apparently the engine had been recently overhauled, and maybe that's why. Do you know if the oil injection system is still available, and if not, can one be made up. Thanks. |
The Suzuki 2-strokes were NOT designed to be converted to pre-mix, the oil injection went straight to the crankshaft bearings, and routed via stamped steel "slingers" to the rod bearing, and the piston via a separate line. The crank bearings iirc would be somewhat shielded from a premix, so you'd have to run heavy and pray.
IF the rebuild was done with that in mind, probably removing the slinger, it might be ok. BUT - Suzuki's design was VERY good and they even ran it on the factory race bikes, albeit wired open to a max setting. The TR500 I raced was set that way, as was the TR250. I would want to know who rebuilt the engine and what if anything they did to modify it. If mods not done, absolutely get an injection system on it. It shouldn't be too hard to get a used system off a wrecker/breaker. They were extremely reliable, I never knew of a failure when I was a dealer. Edit: Thinking more, could be a problem getting premix to the big end bearing of the rod because it's expecting to be lubed from oil coming OUT of the crankpin, and RETAIN some of it as long as possible - so it may not get premix INTO the bearing very well. |
Yep, that's right, Grant. One of the needed mods to run on premix is to enlarge the oiling eye in the big end of the connecting rod.
Cheers Nigel in NZ |
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