WW1 and WW2 and guns in SA? As I posted yesterday: No Id on't see the connection either, but the discussion wandered...so what.

There has been some vitriol here and there and, understandably, given the nonsense M Dongo was spouting..., but as far as L.J. and I are concerned we have been a discussion as I see it, and there has not been any unecessary venom as I can see. Ultimately, its probably a case of agree to disagree. In fact, I think the discussion since Dongo's disappearance has been fine....

As far as respecting other peoples way of life... I respect that this is one way the USA decides to govern itself. I'm not lobbying the US governement to get rid of guns, that is not my business, but I don't see me having an opinion, nor expressing it is such an issue. If the thread is boring to you, don't read it....

The big distinction many were making was that travelling with a gun will get you thrown in the clink...

What is crass about disagreeing with the way something is done else where?!? Secondly, unless you refer to the isolated shooting of Archduke Ferdinand, I don't see how illegal gun ownership has anything to do with those historical events!!

Totally agree


I don't get the impression that they were lumped together at all in fact sporting activities were not even being discussed, it was gun ownership for personal security that was being discussed. Illegal ownership? Speaks for itself...

However people without guns are generally less of a problem than those with guns.

Not my point. My point was that these conflicts including the recent brush fire in the Balkans (which Europe was incapable of handling) were no more our problems than the Napoleonic Wars.

Stalinist bootleather, Nazi bootleather whatever they want to lick its not our problem.

Indeed the transformation of the United States from a mostly noninterventionist power to a highly centralized Federal Authority domestically and Globo-Cop internationally is a directly result of us sticking our nose in other people's business.

With any luck our government will financially collapse and we might return to a more traditional domestic and foreign policy.

When food riots in the developing world triple Islamic immigration to Europe or Russia decides to annex Ukraine or China the Straits of Malacca perhaps we can manage to stay out of that for once as well.

Indeed.

A problem to whom?

If you assume that all people with guns have evil intent ,then your statement has some validity .

Lots of hatred out there on the internet. Fortunately Americans don't find that on the road.

-----Many things were being discussed , it's confusing ,but the antipathy toward gunowners was nevertheless evident .--------

I don't advocate carrying those under the pretext of protection either, to be honest. I did travel with a buck knife. It was stuffed in a pannier, that needed the top box off to open it.... I carried it in case we had problems in the middle of no-where and had to either dig with it, or cut wood etc. The most I used it for, unsurpisingly, was making a damn fine sandwich in the Patagonian steppe on a couple of occasions. I took it under the advice of a friend, ex-royal marine, who has done more survival courses than I can shake a stick at. Sounded like sound advice: he never mentioned using it to gut a local....


Personally, I did not feel anymore anti american sentiment in this thread than there was anti-european. Calling someone a feminist or a castrati because they disapprove of guns is just as bad, IMHO... History is all very well and good, but does a country's history preclude all future changes to its culture? How does a country mature if it never takes a step back to look at its self objectively, and I mean that in a general sense and not purely one country in mind.

Same stands: not really related to individual gun ownership: these were militia organisations not private citizens in the common sense. If any thing it was illegal gun ownership.

Look, at the end of the day I'm not speaking for anyone else, but the way I see it there was antipathy, for the most part, to some flippant remarks about blowing someone away.

Guns are designed soley to kill people and, for that reason alone, I'm not a great fan of them, and I don't think that having one in my house would do anything for my quality of life.
Sporting purposes: great fun and I'd love to have a go. Cardboard for me not flesh and bone...
Whether people carry a gun at home or abroad, I sincerely hope they never have reason to consider using it...

Sorry,

I have only skimmed this thread so might be saying something that someone else has said.

I wouldn't carry a gun while travelling. I do own a couple (sporting & vermin control) and know how to use one, so am not an "anti".

My defence would have to be along the lines of "look at me, I'm a scruffy, lone traveller, outwardly friendly and not looking for trouble. I am un-armed and therefore no threat to you."

If we look at the way dogs sort things (strange, I know but bear with me)

Dog sees other dog;

Situation one
Both approach with tails wagging, sniff each other's butts, piss on a tree and go their separate ways.

Situation two
One tail wagging, the other "hackle-up" Wagging dog bows down accepts that other dog is dominant, allows dominant dog to sniff first, sniff each other's butts, piss on a tree and go separate ways.

Situation three
Both "hackle-up", walk round each other for a while. Now either one dog needs to back down pretty quick or there is going to be trouble. One dog growls, other dog growls bloody great fight kicks off. This won't stop until dominance is decided by one dog ripping the hell out of the other. Normally they would both get pretty ripped up.

Where was I going with this ? oh, yeah. I think your best bet in a confrontation is to try to difuse the situation. If you are not seen as threat, there should never be a problem.

If you pull out a gun, you better be ready to use it bloody quick and accept the consequences, not just for you but all that travel after you.

I do however carry a couple of knives but would not pretend to be able to defind myself with one. One is an ancient old diver's knive that I use for chopping, hacking and hammering the other is small fixed blade skinner which is my food prep, rope cutting, whittling knife. Oh and I have a gerber multi-tool which would be no defence at all because it always takes me five minutes to find the blade.

Last time I sniffed someone's butt, I got a slap (and that was just from my girlfriend!)! And then another from the sniffee....

...sorry, is this a bad example?

I got in trouble last time I licked my balls in public :nono:

Maybe I shouldn't have used a canine analogy :oops2:

I agree with some parts of the leave the gun at home argument. Carrying in most places is against the law and if you are caught you will suffer the sometimes dire consequences. Riding for the pleasure of riding and avoiding those places where robberies or muggings take place should obivate the necessity of carrying in the first place. That being said, the minute I get back into the states and leave the airport, I am armed. My sons meet me with my S&W and a .380 backup. And yes, I have used them to protect myself. No, I was not in a dangerous area but had left the theater late and was almost across the parking lot when I was accosted by a group of young men who decided I should pay for the privilege of parking. I offered the Smith instead and they decided I had already pay for the right to park. In 1979, a burglar who didn't think I might work a night shift broke into my home. He was buried the next week. I have a carry permit issued by the state and for some idiot to proclaim low self-esteem for those who carry a firearm is only indicative of his or her life separate from the reality of some areas.

If I could do that, I'd never leave home!

Low self esteem is the ONLY reason anyone has to carry a gun - but low self esteem also won't allow you to admit it.

The problem is with the military obsessed culture in the US ("the rest of the world wants to take everything off us"syndrome). I'd like to know just how many of the individuals in this thread, who are advocating carrying a gun, have worked in the defence or police services. I'm betting it's close to 100%.

Garry from Oz.

As this thread will not die I will get in to. :offtopic:

The USA dos not have a military obsessed culture. Most people in the USA go about there lifes with little thought about the military even with the war. The USA dose not post military at its borders the USA dose not have military check points on its roads (last time we did was WW2 and the Mexican war). Thats a big brush your painting over 300 milion people with a bit unfair you think. When you went to USA did you see that? Not that you will run in to people that are a bit off in the USA but I have found them every where I have been. McDonalds has traind pore people than than the all the military or poilice (kills more people to)

As far as I have seen only one person has said to take a hand gun with you. Looking at all his posting I dont see where he said he has been in the defence or police services. Looks to me he has not.

Low self esteem has nothing to with having a gun or not. Many world leaders have a gun I cant see them running for high office thinking that not the grates thing. Saying that is personal put down. Like if I say if you need a bike over 250cc your compensating for your low self esteem its mean and untrue.

Most of what I reed here falls in to spots the people that say guns or most any weapons has no place on a bike used for overland travil (I fit in to this one) and the people that say any one that has a gun is up to no good and wants to kill people because well there there inferior to every one else.

I know most places guns are not legal, dose that mean that the places that do alow them are evil? Most places dont have vegimite dose that mean OZ is bad? (i cant find any in the USA and I want to try it) I have eaten food that is not legal in the USA (or most of the world) I dont see them bad I have had Cuben cigars and rum not legal in the USA am I bad for doing that?

Why dose a lump of steal get people so fired up? Cars kill more people world wide, bats kill more people, knifes kill more. Stop lising to all the propaganda.

No I dont carry as a rule, I have to get my gun to and from the shooting range (years ago) I cant see having it help me. I have a throttle in my right hand and can turn around much faster than pull a gun out aim and fire it. Let alone a knife or club (both more usefull on a long trip)

I think If we all got together in a pub after a beers we hash this out much better.

If can lick my balls Id still ride. I gust do it all the time! :rofl:

This thread needs to be moved to the BAR.

Maybe Mae West got it right.......

I think you already have - and it's gone off.....

[QUOTE=Laser Jock;190941

The original game plan for America was a citizen militia with equal access to every horrible weapon of war possesed by the government. No standing army to go on foreign adventures or for domestic repression.

I still think this a good idea.[/QUOTE]




Hasn't worked since Vietnam, has it?

Hasnt worked long before that since the US civil war was not legal for USA citizens to have gatling guns.

But then most people dont know the USA was not supost to have any stanind army only state ran militias. Dint work to well so the USA did away with them. Then WW1 came up the USA was not to send troops in to war that did not thretin the USA soil but we did. Then WW2 and the USA sent munishens and guns to the UK in violation of laws and treats hoping to provok Germany to sink a passenger ship they did and in we go again. All of this had people up in arms in the USA. So now we have a people around the world demanding the USA do something about any and all spats the world has. Vietnam and the war now is gust extension of that foreign policy made way back then. One day soon the USA will be surprised on the world stage and the world have to deal with China or Inda or the EU or who ever wonder, what it will look like.

Warthog said :

" Sporting purposes: great fun and I'd love to have a go. Cardboard for me not flesh and bone...
Whether people carry a gun at home or abroad, I sincerely hope they never have reason to consider using it... "


Good sentiments there mate , I wholeheartedly agree .

Cardboard, clays and game for the cooking pot .

How behave in such a terrble manner?
 

As an American, I take offense to your statement.

If the quote above is indeed true, then you sir, are a small minded bigot. The truth is that far and wide most all Americans are honest peace loving people, just like anywhere else in the world. Why would you want to spread and inflame the fires of baseless hatred?

If someone asks me why people "hate" (Israelis, Greeks, Muslims etc), I respond by telling them the wonderful stories of the people I have met in or from these places and about the hospitality, kindness and assistance the have shown me.

Go ahead, hate our politics (can´t blame you), hate our corporations, be disgusted by certain aspects of our various cultures, but don´t cast and encourage widespread hatred toward people you don´t even know!

Didn´t your mother teach you "two wrongs don´t make a right"

Heh
 

If you were old and drove a Bmw,you,d probably hate every thing too!!!
Albert theturtleshead

Then again, if I had to ride a BMW, I´d certainly want it to be a very old one. At least the old ones are kinda cool. ;-)

I am about to buy my second Dominator. I will be ordering a large bore hunting pistol with it, to avenge the buttock trauma caused by the saddle. If you wish, you may pry my Honda out of my cold, dead arse.

That did make me laugh, although the mental image I was left with did ruin my late breakfast.... thanks a bunch! Do you have a licence to use those adjectives?!

Sweet, get the Ruger over the Smith. Stronger action.

So can I have the gun?

First of all, I have re read my original post.. Sadly I neglected to make it clear I was replying to Dongo, not the original poster. You ought to consider all of my post, not just extract a part of it. We have been asked a few times on this forum ( mostly by Americans) why they are disliked. They are not diskiked, but sometimes because of the gung ho attitude to the sensibilities of others they can be difficult to love.
Many years ago when I was much younger I watched a program on TV, Starsky and Hutch.. This particualr episode was set at Christmas. Some petty theif stole a christmas tree worth £5 and was making off with it. The uniformed cop with them Shot at the thief..Well, ok so it is all make believe, but the fact that killing a petty thief for such a little thing did not seem disproportunate to the film makers says a lot about the culture in which the film was made.

As it happens I could have made some use of a pistol today, had I been riding with one in my hand, but then I would not have been able to use either the throttle or front brake. which is why carrying aweapon is mostly useless. A deer ran out in front of me and stopped in the middle of my side of the road. Clearly unsure whether to continue or return. I chose to steer towards the gap between his blunt end and the grass verge..as I did not fancy crossing over in front as a lorry was coming towards us and I suspected ther was a higher chance of him running that way. At the last minute he ran the rest of the way and crossed the road and nobody got hurt.. I spent some time analizing what I should have done, eventually deciding that aiming for where he had been was probably the best strategy.

Fair enough, I consider dongo`s attitude to be offensive as well. More than likely, he was just trolling.

I did consider all of your post. Actually, after re reading it maybe I should have not gotten so hot. Especially, considering that you meant that you would point other people from the states to the thread. This was not clear in your original post. On the other hand, I don`t believe I took your quote out of context. Had you said "other Americans" I probably would have left it alone. On a third read, actually, "rest of the world" does passively indicate that you were referring to other Americans. Apologies.

To be clear, the word "hate" in the states carries much stronger connotations than perhaps in Europe. We are still suffering from the lingering effects of bigotry to a much greater degree than many European nations. Thusly, we use the the word for "hate crimes" and other things that most of us take very seriously. Unfortunately, we still suffer from a small percentage of the population that still retains notions of bigotry.

I have also been surprised how much bigotry exists in many nations of the world. It´s shocking really.

I have on occasion, been subjected to bigotry toward Americans while traveling. It does not feel good to be told that someone has preemptively made a decision to hate you individually based solely one where you were born-

My impression world wide is that we are more often disliked for the destruction that our failed American foreign/environmental/economic policies have wrought upon the world than due to a "gung ho" attitude, which I have even heard many people speak of with admiration.

Fortunately, most of the world`s people can separate the actions of a government from the people that reside there, since in the majority of cases they do not associate themselves with the actions of there own governments.

Ah, American Media violence. Do you know that most American violent films make much more money internationally, than they do in the states. In fact the Europeans love em. In S Am, they absolutely swoon over them. I don´t think this says anything about "their" culture. Far and wide, the Hollywood producers do not feel any social responsibility toward their audience (this was not always true), they only care about sales and violent programming sells. In the states and internationally.

No, it does not say anything about our culture. It is more a testament of how mega corps no longer feel as they have any social responsibilities to their consumers. When pondered on a global scale, it is indeed frightening.

In conclusion, sorry about the bigot comment. It was unwarranted, I may felt a little as though people were piling on the generalizations and perhaps picked you to vent upon. Again apologies.

It is no problem. Drongo wound me up, and i just wrote from the hip.

Often it is easy to misunderstand someones intentions from their posting either because the writer did not fully explain ( I often do this , tend to draw the dots and leave the reader to join them up) or the reader thought along different lines to teh writer. Language is a poor medium for communication. Just try describing a taste to someone who has not actuallly tasted what you are trying to describe.

I do very much separate people from their respective governments. generally disliking governments, they all seem to try to get away with whatever they think their electors (If they have them) will let them get away with.. Badly phrased I know. Problem is they are learning more and more how to manipulate the electors emotions and perceptions by lies and misrepresentations. As do commercial concerns.

A moment of relaxing
 

This is the ideal bike for travelling the pampas with good proteccion!Diferential and tracted 3rd weehl,nice handy not concealed fast shooting weapon,you will be admired at every border!
And a little cart for extra ammo.And above all it is not us made,no you know its european,hahahahahaha
Enjoy,relax and reply with a joke.
Its asado time for me now.
Adios

Europeo?
 

Viene de Russia!! Los Urales! (Yo tengo una sin la proteccion! En negro, naturalmente: son los mas rapidos!!)

Yes europeo amigo mio
 

That is the original R-75 "elefant" from ww2.Its a 43 build!The russian and chinese models are cheap knock off kopies.(what the ruskies "took" from berlin after the end of war hahahaha)
Still i would consider bike and gun as weapons because you don´t know wich one of both will explode first.
Saludos a Estonia

WHAT?!?!

I should attack you with my unlicenced, concealed tube of very strong mustard for that remark about my lovely, dependable, 150bhp Ural!!

Alwas waned a Ural now I see why! Think of the kit I can pack in that!

Wonder how the shaking is when your shooting that big gun must be loud to wonder if it saves lives like the Harly pipes do. :rofl:

Americans in Latin America
 

The only thing wrong with Latin America are the outrageous Yanks who move in and terrorize the place. I won´t get into too many examples that I witnessed of absolute stupidity with the exception of one.

While celebrating 2007 New Year´s Eve in Mexico with quite an international gathering of travellers, a two bit punk of about 40 years old from San Diego, CALIFORNIA sucker- punched me because he was jealous of my cruiser. So I beat the s**t out of him. I had no gun or pepper spray.NICE WAY TO START THE NEW YEAR:

What , also, pi**sed me off were the number of Yanks trying to pass them selves off as Canadians. I am a Canadian.

Since I managed to ride from the arctic circle in Alaska, all the way to Ushuaia, and one of my citizenships is USA, I'll chime in.

Don't take a gun. It's dumb.

Do take pepper spray. It saved my ass in JuJuy, Argentina. Mine was actually bear spray, left over from Alaska. It was legal in Canada (guns are NOT legal in Canada) and if it wasn't legal from Mexico south, not a single cop told me it wasn't. I'd have to guess, but I'd say my bear spray was commented on by at least one cop in every country. If it was illegal, none of them said anything.

In JuJuy, in a hostel, I was confonted by 3 drunk argentinia 20-somethings. They tried to rob me. Lucky for me, they were drunk. They told me to give them my money. I told them it was in my tank bag. It took me some time to fumble through it and find the pepper spray that I hadn't thought about in ages. I couldn't even remember how to use it. They had no idea what it was, probably because it didn't look like any regular pepper spray. I gave them one little warning shot off to the side. That was all it took, and I was safe.

I like Laser Jocks idea of having it clipped to my riding jacket, but I don't know where I'd put it. Bear Spray comes in a pretty big bottle.

In Alaska and northern Canada I rode with it clipped to the outside of my tank bag. Around camp I wore it on a belt, gun-slinger style. Lots of other campers (Canadian and American) also wore it on their belts.

What I really liked about the pepper spray is that it's non-lethal. The consequences were not the kind that would take me to jail. I didn't bother calling the police. I just got on my bike and rode away. The boys I sprayed had runny noses and teary eyes- not holes in their bodies.

I am 100% sure that, if I'd had to make a police report, I would have been vindicated. It was me against three.

I am 100% sure that if I had not used the bear spray, I would have been robbed, and probably beaten up. It was a very tense situation.

I've traveled, pretty much solo, to about 35 countries. I don't own a hand gun. I don't support the NRA but I do agree with pretty much everything that Laser Jock said.

By the way, if any of you haven't met Laser Jock... he's a pretty cool guy, he's traveled all ove the world, and there is no way I would ever pick a fight with him. I don't think he stopped smiling during the entire two hours I met him. He's as good an ambasador for his country as any other travelar I've met.

You couldn't just let it go!
 

Canxcape and Bananaman -
you couldn't just let this f'ing thread die, could you? Had to stick another damn comment in this thread, bring it back from the dead.

Hey Chuck need some "Rhino spray"?
 

I think its ok to talk about this issues Chuck.I agree with Bananaman with the use of non deadly security.I have seen on his ADR tread he is travelling with female company.And you know i would have at least one way of protection when travelling with female company.(beside rubers hahahaha)
Now to the size of the can is the issue.Most problems i have heard happend in towns(bars,discos,streets) so carrying a big can all the time.....
I would have mine in the tank bag.Fast to find and use.
Of course avoiding trouble is the best recipe.
Now travelling allone....just a humble look and friendly caracter is the best way.

I think all of us who've done any travelling have had to use "the humble look," the "friendly character," and probably a few other little tricks to get out of a tight place. I promise I tried all of those to get out of the spot I found myself in in JuJuy when I was almost the victim of a mugging.

Probably for the next few days I was chuckling to myself about how much better pepper was for the situation. The assholes who wanted to rob me didn't deserve to die, but they did deserve to cry. Pepper worked!

As for travelling with a woman... I recomend it!

I have no desire to get back into this discussion and I'm not sure how I feel about sprays, but I must say:




Good line, dude!!

I'm sorry but after reading this I had to register just so I could say something about this one.....


Max.... You can bring an Apache Attack helicopter with you and you will be the first to get robbed and/or beat up because of your attitude, and maybe also show you where exactly you can stick your gun there, terminator....

I am an american citizen but lived in Argentina since 76, I feel as though I was born in Argentina and not the us..
(I am an illegal alien here.... but don't say nothing... shhhh)

I NEVER got robbed in Argentina, ANYWHERE. And I look more gringo than anything else around here.
What these thugs hate the most is some yoyo acting like he owns their land ,specially the ones who like to stick their chest out at foreign people and say Please guy.... stay out of Argentina and go to Iraq if you wanna show off your guns if it makes you feel any more powerful...

The best advice I can give anyone reading this thread is this:

If you're planning a trip through Argentina all you need is a positive attitude, be friendly, DON'T ACT LIKE GOD SENT YOU TO SHOW YOU'RE BETTER THAN THEM JUST BECAUSE YOU HAPPEN TO BE FROM THE US, try to figure out the bad neighborhoods and stay out of them, (you can usually tell bad spots from good ones... I could imagine this white boy walking around the bronx at 3am, I wouldnt last a minute) If possible, have another biker riding along with you, (Mostly in case of breakdowns, running out of gas, or just to be able to share the experience with someone else.... not like the guy who shot a hole in one from 900 yards and no one was there to witness it!!!
Explore the towns, go into the stores, talk to people...
People are good by nature and mean no harm to you and will help you whenever possible.
Go to Villa Gesell, which is located about 300 kilometers south of Buenos Aires, between the months of December and April... Specially if your riding a dual sport such as an African twin, or an xr650l etc.... But it doesnt matter if your riding a cruiser or a crotch rocket, there is lots of paved streets, sand and beach for you to enjoy...

Don't have lots of cash on you, always have small denominations in Pesos at the ready for smokes, gas, food, parts, etc...

And that's it...
I guarantee you you will have the time of your life if you would just relax and enjoy the trip.

Stupid thread
 

If someone is stupid enough to show up at any border crossing with a gun onboard it's none of my business.

It only becomes my business if the border post is understaffed and they slow everybody else down while the arrest the idiot.

Then again, some places actually pass everybody through once they have somebody to play with.

Tough call :unsure: