I'm not sure why some long distance moto travelers get so wrapped up about the police fishing for a little beer money? It happens, its part of the deal, relax, get over it.

I always had some interesting and even comical experiences with the cops that wanted money from me. Never paid them though. Getting stopped by cops trying to get a few bucks from me is just a nice break that punctuates the monotony of the day IMO.

I'll give the Mexican cops first place prize for creativity. Several years ago, one guy went as far as to handcuff me and put in in the back of his cruiser for an almost an hour with the windows rolled up in 90 degree heat, while he was supposedly trying to find a truck to come pick up my bike. I called his bluff, and I won. But, mentally I was fully prepared to go to jail. That was the only time I ever thought that I may have got myself into a little more than I expected. I was surprised he wasted so much time on me. I thought that I might have met my match with that guy.

In second place, not far behind, the Honduran cops were pretty slick. The cop gambit of CA1 through Honduras was quite entertaining. By the 6th time I was stopped on that 100 mile stretch of road, the cops laughed at me, and said, "oh, youre the guy with no passport, and no money. Move along gringo, cuidate" :cool4:

I wouldnt dare put the Argentinian cops at this Ruta 14 checkpoint in the same league with the Mexican and Honduran cops. In my travels, only twice in all of Argentina did a cop even hint that he wanted a mordida. My other experiences with cops in Argentina was positive. One guy even helped me change a front flat on the side of the road. Never heard of a cop in the US doing that.

The Peruvian cops whom people seem to have lots of issues with, only hit me up for cash 3 times in about 3000 miles of riding. Only took about 5 minutes of my time for them to eventually tell me to move along.

If youre strategy is to get aggressive by taking out a camera and start snapping pictures of the cops, telling them you are writing for a magazine, one day youre going to piss off the wrong cop and get yourself into much more than you bargained for IMO. You have to remember that you are still dealing with the cops and cops have the power to make your life very miserable. I will not pay them, but I also prefer not to piss them off. Once you do that, you just dug yourself a much deeper hole to get out of. But, do whatever you like.

gatogato, dealing with the cops is all part of the reality that you signed up for when you pointed that bike south, so I dont understand all the heartburn with this.

Javier is correct. Be polite, use your head, stand your ground. Everyone has a different capacity to deal with situations like this, and there is always a learning curve. Hopefully the $400 you paid in tuition did not go to waste.

Saludos.

Oh, another "know it all."

It is so fun to read the posts of the people who do not make any mistakes on this site!

I am sure there is a reason why this thread was stickied as opposed to one about a police checkpoint in another country. Please notice that I was not the thread starter.

If you did not travel through this checkpoint then why are you giving other rider's advice on it? How would you have any idea how the police at this checkpoint compare to anyone else?

I never paid a bribe to the police on my trip.

Thanks again for your patronizing advice! It was very informative.

The only reason I was posting in this thread was to warn other riders about the danger of this checkpoint. It is too bad that this thread is turning into a pissing match. Hopefully, potential riders can discern the relevant information for themselves.

Glad you enjoyed my post. I have no idea why this thread was stickied because its just another checkpoint among hundreds in Latin America where the cops will try to get a few bucks from you. I understand that you didnt start the thread, but you did flat out tell Javier that he had absolutely no clue as to what he was talking about. So who is the "know it all?"



I've traveled through the Ruta 14 Km 341 checkpoint, more than once. Its not a big deal, just one more checkpoint where cops try to get money from you.


Then why all the drama?



Your welcome. I'm happy I could help enlighten you. I dont see any pissing match here other than the one you started with Javier. The relevant information is that the cops may try and shake you down at this checkpoint, nothing else. A checkpoint like this is neither unique, nor rare in Latin America.

Youre getting all worked up about nothing. Relax.

Time to throw my 5 pesos worth into this one I think!
This particular checkpoint IS a nest of vipers. That's why this thread was stickied. I've been through numerous times as an overland truck driver in the last 10 years and can give plenty of first hand experience of pistols being waved about, even pointed at my codriver to make him sit down in the office, and every time a truck goes through it IS stopped.
Sorry if this embarasses our Argentine friends, but it's time to stop patronising us with this "they're just normal cops trying to make a bit of extra" bull... They're not. They are thoroughly nasty bast...s, and Crashmaster, after 10 years on the continent, I can tell you this checkpoint IS rare. If some have passed through it with little or no trouble then bully for them, but don't try to reduce other's experiences to mere overreaction.
There. Don't need to visit this thread again. Thanks for listening.

I've been traveling in Latin America enough years to know that I can expect to run into checkpoints like this in Mexico, Central America, and South America. I'm not saying its right nor that its OK. I'm saying it is not uncommon and any foreign moto traveler should expect to run into situations like this and deal with it accordingly. This checkpoint is not unique in the Americas and whining about it on the internet doesnt accomplish anything of value.

^ And at how many of those checkpoints did they hold a gun to your head?

That is what happened to me. I was courteous and polite for a whole hour and then the guy saw me take his license plate number down when I got to my bike. That is when he took me into the back and took his gun out.

Gatogato
You should have gone to policia federal and report that incident inmidiately.
This could be a real case of police abuse or just an Edgar Alan Poe story.
Bringing this again with no tangible results........you are still alife......so maybe you just painted all that with full colors.Only you know.
I think all bikers know what is going on there.So you are supposedly the only one that experience this claimed abuse.Move on.
Again where all are warned,before that happend to you.......
Locals with no insurance(they deserve to pay for ride without) get ripped off too.
I know for fact many travellers fake their insurance papers or ride without them......so be prepare to pay if they find out.
All said before here how to deal with them......
Have a nice ride Gatogato.
Karl

Read Mossproof's post from 3 posts ago. He had the exact same gun pointing happen to him.

The cop at the checkpoint held a gun to your head? So with the gun at your head he then demanded you pay him $400? So what did you tell him then? I'm surprised you didnt mention that before as it seems like it would have been a significant event in your trip.

If a cop, or anyone held a gun to my head and demanded money, IMO, there is no more to negotiate. I'd pay him. I would very much like to hear how you got out of paying him anything as I'm sure its a very interesting story. Please continue with more details about having a gun held to your head at this checkpoint.

The press and the Argentinian government would love to get the information of what happened to you I'm sure.

I'm more curious why it is that any thread which comes to include Gatogato degenerates so rapidly and so thoroughly. The man has contributed bits of value from time to time, but more often something more akin to theatre of the absurd--the accusations following getting ripped off by his "new girlfriend," for example. Now this. Gatogato, have you wondered why you so routinely attract such mayhem and abuse? Have you thought about altering your approach so as to be taken more seriously?

Mark

(who rode up to Iguaçu through Uruguay and Brazil, taking in some nice beaches along the way and rendering considerations of the famous Ruta 14 roadblocks entirely moot)

Someone here should make that "mordida" or "coima" event on a video(helmet device or so.Then post this on youtube.
I am talking with a local news reporter to do a 15 min report on tv about this unpleaseant moment for tourist.
Anyone dare to do that? or maybe allready done?
Karl

Almost ready to get into Argentina and read this whole story... wow

We didn't have any big issues with this bribing thin, only a bit in Peru and Bolvia which was easy to bluff out of. This seems a bit more serious, although I happily read people do get away with it mostly.

Getting guns pulled out seems a bit scary... and would maybe make me pay.
The thing I still want to solve, is the 'original document' thing. Mostly, when I give copies, they ask for the originals. Only my driverslicense is copied nicely, so I say it is an original. (close to impossible to get that renewed without flying back to The Netherlands....)
How do people handle this? Make supernice fakes, or state that you only have copied paperwork with you and the rest is in a friends house nearby...

I do agree, if people just pay... this wil never end. Play the game!
We meet way to many fellow travellers who have paid huge fines, e.g. 100USD for 'not wearing a T-shirt while driving a car'... As long as people pay stuff like that, we might consider changing this website to 'www.cajeroautomaticounlimited.com'.... ;-)

Have to admit, it did put a big smile on my face a few times, nothing beats driving away with all the needed stamps and paperwork, and only hearing a vague 'plata, plata' from a police officer behind you ;-)

Lol Mark, it is always nice to hear from another "expert." Traveling with you sounds about as fun as taking an all inclusive Caribbean cruise.

The nice thing about "advrider" is you don't have to deal with the elitist pricks that one often finds on this site.

If you did not have any problems on your trip then good for you, but why do you elitist pricks (talking about a minority here, usually the guys with the Touratech bikes) feel the need to talk bad about someone else's adventure?

Well Mark, congratulations! You read this thread and avoided possible peril by taking an alternative route around Ruta 14.

Well, I suppose I'm an elitist *****. I suppose I'm probably riding a Touratech bike, too. And I guess it's my imagination which tells me that the same people I'm seeing here, myself included, are also found on ADVrider.

Gatogato, your question ("but why do you....feel the need to talk bad about someone else's adventure?") is the one I was suggesting you ask yourself. Why are people constantly harassing you? No one talks bad about my trips--except you, of course, and you're not even talking about me; you're imagining someone who doesn't exist. What do you think the difference might be? Is it possible you've got some degree of control over this?

Just asking.

Mark

Ohh Yuck!!! There you go again….
Well maybe isn’t too bad as was a boring Sunday and this could be funny.

Hey “Expert” Mark, how are you doing??

I just wanted to add a comment. Before heading on our South American adventure I had read up alot about corrupt cops (including this post) and was ready and waiting to meet one at every corner.

Since starting out in Santiago, Chile, travelling down south to Ushuaia, Argentina north to Buenos Aires, Argentina, through Uruguay, a little Brazil, Paraguay, northern Argentina and now in Bolivia, we haven`t had one single problem.

In fact in Chile and Argentina the police were extremely helpful with routes, assistance, and even one time offering us use of their email (in the small town of Cochrane).

We didn`t travel through the infamous Ruta 14 but I don`t have a single bad thing to say about any of the police.

We`ll be eventually travelling to Peru where I hear its bad and maybe Bolivia will be our first, but so far not the issue I thought it would be.

All the best with everyone`s travels

Reece

Aotearoa to the Andes

Hey Javier, long time! I now have a regular job and am saving money so that I can properly entertain you and Sandra when you ride through here.....which was happening when, exactly? Soon, I hope. I even have a few motorbikes in the garage, and they are whispering your name.

Abrazos y besos para usted y su bella esposa!

Mark

Mark, yes long time!
We are trying to save money too to can visit back the many nice people we had met last years. This 2012 will be the UK turn (we hope) see: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...giesland-62825

But who know, maybe a 2013 USA !!!? Soon we hope too.


Abrazos y besos de los dos para vos tambien!
Saludos

Wouldnt private messages be a more appropriate way to express your mutual sympathy, or is this another episode of the Javkap viral marketing on the south american forum.

Gato might or might not have experienced some gun threat on the route 14. The only place where i got threatened and insulted by a police officer over 20 years wasting time and cash motorcycling on the roads all over the globe was in..the United States (South Carolina). I found police officers in South America to be much more open minded, sympathetic and willing to help than in Europe and the US, where their function seems to be limited to collect fines, while the "serve and help" values have been forgotten. In a productive environment, spending time helping doesnt pay back the public investment.

Anyways, may be i just got lucky, but doubt isnt a valid excuse for the bullying behaviour of a few regular members against gato"s testimony, and his personality in general. Could you guys spare us this unnecessary agressivity while keeping giving needed tips for newcomers (called "noobs" by Javier with a J), the forum would be most thankfull.

My two unwelcomed centavos.:helpsmilie:

Full Moon or Coronal Mass Ejections Ruta 14
 

Here in northern Spain, and almost everywhere else on earth recently experienced the ongoing, according to some researchers, electric magnetic storm known as CME or Coronal Mass ejections. When I used to work at a 24 hour crisis center, I noted that there were many more crisis on the night of a full moon than other nights. The recent worldwide solar storm might be effecting the police and victims of Ruta 14, like a full moon does?

Perhaps, and I have sort of been observing this, the Ruta 14 extortions and descriptions of same by those who post here, may have been effected by unusual solar activity. Perhaps a research project could be launched to determine what factors are or are not contributing to the extortions on Ruta 14. I volunteer.

I will return to Argentina later this year and ride up Ruta 14 until I get extorted at which time I will ask if I might stick around for a week or so to monitor the extortion of others for a research paper I am writing.

i am sure we can find an appropriate venue to present the paper when my research is completed.

Just want to uphold our elitist image...

Javier if you and Sandra need a place to stay in northern Spain, you got it.

xfiltrate

Hi People, a bit of reassurance for those who wish to confront the (alleged) trials, tribulations and life threatening situations to be met on Ruta 14. Over the last 8 years I have ridden the section of R.14 from Entre Rios to Iguazu and back again 4 times between 2004 and last month. I like it because the scenery gets really nice the further north you get, there are some very cheap, very good hotels on the way and the bird life especially in the morning is wonderful. Each time I have been stopped by the chicos en azul at the same place. Thanks to the HUBB I was forewarned of the presence of these pernicious policemen and made sure that when on the 'panhandle' I kept to the speed limits and more importantly had current insurance and a temporary import certificate. I smile, say 'buenos whatever' and then 'no hablo spanish', more of a statement of fact for me than a cunning plan, whilst holding out my paperwork. So far it has worked and after a short chat in 'Spanglish' I have been sent on my way. Anyone going that way feel free to use my template and stay cool. Ride safe.:mchappy:

I passed today with no control.
NO POLICE CONTROL from Quebec ( September 2011) to Concordia in Argentina (June 2012) !!!! ( 16 countries )
I may be in luck !!!! :mchappy:
christian

Corruption worse than ever
 

I have been travelling in South America quite a while.
Argentina is definately getting worse. I travelled from Santiago to Buenos Aires yesterday. I was stopped 6 times in Argentina and 4 of those asked for money.
My Spanish becomes "no entende" and lots of smiles.
The 341 cops are a joke, the locals pay just to save trouble, as everyone knows everone elses business.
But in the last 5 years I have noticed a growth industry in this situation.
Will let you know what happens on the way back to Santiago.
The_Gypsy

Hi
I just got nailed by the "boys in blue" at Corrientes.

There is a Police booth just as you leave town (before the bridge to Resistencia). I was waved to the side. Lots of "no entiendo etc" but to no avail. They started off with the bizarre fine of 100 litres of fuel (which would be about £100), this then got reduced to Ps425. The guy was desperate to "not" write the ticket. After 40 mins I just couldn't be bothered to fight it any more. I put my hand in my pocket with about Ps120 and said that's all i have got. That was good enough for him and I went.

i did take some photos of the two Coppers at one point and they nearly went balistic!

Sorry to give in as I know it makes it harder for the next guy passing through.

What I will say that this is the first time in 10 months around the whole of South America so i suppose I should count myself lucky

BTW watch your speed in and around Crodoba - they are strict (and not crooked by all accounts).

Ruta 14, Buenos Aires -Misiones(Cataratas del Iguazu) -
 

Hola a todos, lamentablemente la policia de Entre Rios, por donde pasa la 14 es muy corrupta, siempre inventan algo
exceso de Equipaje
Alta velocidad
Manejo imprudente
etc, etc.

Tengan cuidado los que pueden actuar sobre la autovia, son los moviles policiales "camineros" con los laterales pintados a cuadros y los agentes de verde "gendarmeria", estos ultimos menos corruptos....
Cuidado con los moviles policiales "blancos", son los de los policias de los pueblos de la zona, que se instalan en la ruta y desvios sin autorizacion de los superiores, para sacar dinero o electronicos.(son los mas peligrosos)
Lo mejor es asustarlo simulando la grabacion "oculta" de la conversacion con un celular
Nunca apartarse de la autovia, si lo hacen de dia y acompañados y solo a la ciudad de "concepcion"
Varios lugares pueden ser evitados, por los caminos rurales y una ronda de unos 7 KM , ver el Google Map.
De ultima traer algun billete extranjero falso, los brutos, no saben distinguir....
Lamentablemente yo vivo en la zona....
Estoy harto de lo que le hacen a los amigos viajeros.....
cualquier consulta a disposicion, no todos los argentinos somos iguales

Delbert
Exactly the same happend to me, police was saying I was driving my bike in the wrong lane, (edit saw today in another town the sign forbidden for motocycletta's) So yep I made an offence.
But threathening me with a trip into town and it would cost 5 hours and 100 pesos and all was on camera "nothing could be done" though 200 Pesos did.

Be aware if you are riding through Corriente don't drive the main lane stay on the side lanes. Don't give them an excuse as I did.

Took a load of time and as it was hot (39) I just paid.
Stupid enough had not the 170 pesos he was asking so had to do for 200 pesos.
So watch out leaving Corrientes !!

At route 14 I was stoped, they can't "take' you for speeding as there are roadworks but had to see every freaking paper including international driving license, as I got it all he had to let me go.

Argentina is really fast heading down for a thirdworld status, was here in 2010 and it seemed better than

Just to update, 5 days ago I rode from Posadas to Concepcion del Uruguay on Ruta 14 (including km 341) and after reading all the above I was full on ready to loose a few pesos so was surprised when I wasn't stopped at all.

I slowed down in time well before each stop - in line with the road signs and was prepared to be stopped but each time they waved me on. Only once did they look like they wanted to stop me, but I kept going slowly and looked in my mirror, they didn't seem to care and turned away so I kept going. There is a lot of police presence, mobile speed cameras in white vans and a number of checkpoints. I'd say keep the speed down and watch all the signs as one small mistake and they'll be friendly informing you of an "infracción".

I'd agree about Corrientes - I was stung there too in October but not on the bridge, on the road leading out onto Ruta 12.

Good luck all.

I got nailed on that spot, for supposedly speeding. They wanted $120 usd and i asked if i could pay with my Visa. haha. Should have seen the look on his face. I asked to see speend camera photo and when he couldnt produce it i told him no photo = no dinero and rode off.
They didnt try and stop me.

Ruta 14 Km 139 Southbound
 

Add mile marker 139 to the list. I was stopped at the southbound check point today and told I was speeding. The speed limit was 120 KM (75 MPH) and I was never over 70 MPH becuase I only had 350 pesos and needed to make my gas stretch to make it to my destination. After demanding 1200 pesos and a trip to the computer to use Google Translate they took 300 pesos and left me without enough gas to make it.

I used my Visa to purchase gas but it left a sour taste for Entre Rios. :thumbdown: I probably wont return on that route again. A much better route north is BA to Rosario to Santa Fe then north to the falls.

It look's like things didn't change, this is a quote of "insetonaviseira" from blogspot, it's written in portuguese but it says basically that they got stopped by the police for speeding at Ruta 14, between Colon and Gualeguaychú.

May be of some use.

I've made use of references and info from the HUBB to create something that might be official enough to help get past the police retirement fund waypoints. Just a matter of fighting fake lists of infractions and fines with fake report forms.

Argentina Police Corruption Report Form

Third page is a reprint of one of the posts here and the first page is an elaboration of the official contact form available on the web (which can also be lodged on the web)

If anyone has suggestions for improving its effectiveness, let me know and I'll change it

Hey Tony, that form would be helpful.

Just two mistakes:

1. Por favor complete el forulario Please.....
Correct way: formulario ( letter M missing)

2. Teléphono (in the form and also in the Ministery address)
Correct way: Teléfono (change PH for F)

Cheers,

Santiago

Thanks Santiago. Corrections made.

Between Mr Google's approximations and my typos caused by total lack of Spanish, the errors crept in - and there is nothing that points to a document being a scam quite like a few spelling errors.

If there are any more suggestions for extra information fields or whatever, just post them and once Santiago approves the spelling and grammar, I'll modify the form

Also, if people have specific examples of some of the more outlandish scams pulled at the Argentinian road blocks, I can add them to the hints and tips on the last page. Forewarned is forearmed even though many of them should be covered by the international convention that accepts vehicle equipment and configuration that is legal back in the home country.

Relativity and comparable magnitude
 

Thank you to those who have posted positive comments here, especially those who encourage a "buck up" it ain't that bad attitude.

In the interest of "relativity" please review this research compiled from the world class CATO Institute. You can click on each incident to read a report....

Botched Paramilitary Police Raids | Cato Institute

When we speak of the "police" they are indeed relative.... and one must have the " to what" to understand, so here I present data of comparable magnitude.

xfiltrate eat, drink and be careful

xfiltrate, very hard to see the relevance of that "research" into certain incidents in the US (over a period of many years) to this topic discussing constant police shakedowns on Argentinian highways.

I get your point, but
 

Tony LEE , I have lived in Argentina for almost a decade I am and probably always will be a citizen of the United States of America. I am a property owner in the States and return each two years or so to look after my properties. I posted CATO Institute "research" because with each visit home (Arizona) I have personally experienced "shakedowns" by police that make the rank amateur police gang operating on that Ruta , whom I have also experienced first hand, look like Boy Scouts....

Are you in the USA? Have you been there long? Come on my friend do you not realize that the very isolated Ruta police corruption is like a candle in the wind when compared to the police state that is now the USA?

The stats I have provided are simply to give some comparable data with which to evaluate this thread.

I do welcome your comments , and would be pleased to learn your response to this post.

xfiltrate

My point was that while it is valid to compare like incidents between countries to give some measure of relativity, the type of incident portrayed in the 'research" bears no relationship whatsoever to those related in this thread - so I would ask again, what was the point of posting it. It is NOT relevant. You might just as well have posted statistics on the divorce rate in the USA or the number of postmen bitten by poodles. The police state that, according to some, exists in the USA does so simply because the democratically-elected government (on all levels) is apparently convinced that the majority of its citizens want it that way. Also hardly a topic relevant to the aims of HUBB forum though but you raised it, not me.

As for where and when I drive. So far about 12 months continuous driving in the US in 4-month blocks - most of it being on back roads and small towns and not on the interstates - plus three months in Mexico - also mostly not on toll roads - plus three months in Morocco and a lot of time and huge number of miles in 20 other countries and we have never, NEVER, come across any examples of improper conduct by police or other officials trying to make some money on the side out of fake driving offences. If it happens in Argentina, it will be the first time - and if it involves me being caught for a genuine traffic infringement, as happened in Morocco when I rolled through a stop sign, then I will pay the full fine in the correct manner and at the correct venue - but if it involves just an obvious shakedown, then there is no way they will get any pocket money out of me. Partly a matter of principle, but also because I don't want to visit the same situation on the next traveller to pass that way.

In Country
 

Tony Lee, thanks for your post. I was off target and off topic. I am pleased to learn you have not experienced any corruption while traveling.

No matter, contrary to your statement the NDAA legislation, Homeland Security poll numbers and approval ratings for the US Congress fall well, well below a majority, you are right, this is another discussion.

I hope this is an appropriate question.

Assuming international over land motorcyclists, HUBBERS for example, traveling in Argentina and in the States make up equal groups of law abiding people, why is it that the potential/possibility to be arrested and put in jail is much, much greater in the States than in Argentina by about 5 times ?

Matter of fact, counting repeat arrests, as amazing as it seems....about one in six males in the United States 20-30 years old will be arrested at one time or another. The stats for females are lower. The USA has the highest % of people in jail per capita in the world, 750 prisoners per hundred thousand while Argentina has 147 prisoners per hundred thousand (2011).

What could be going on?

Thanks for the even handed way you brought me back to topic.

xfiltrate

Indeed.

I guess you'll have to post a citation for that dubious claim. Presumably you realize that just because incarceration rates in the US are much higher than in Argentina that does not mean that "international over land motorcyclists, HUBBERS for example" are five times more likely to be arrested in the US than in Argentina?

I've been unable to find any support for your quoted figure, so once again please provide a citation.

Don't make it so easy. While xfiltrate loves to play fast and loose, shifting stats and random assertions so that he never has to admit fault, it is true (and easily verified) that my country arrests and incarcerates a much higher proportion of its population than most, maybe all, others. More startling than the assertions above, have a look at this journal article: Cumulative Prevalence of Arrest From Ages 8 to 23 in a National Sample .

What relevance has this for overlanders? Little or none, of course....except that when complaining bitterly about the corruption we encounter in the Developing World, it's good to maintain some perspective on law enforcement practices in our home countries.

Mark

First, without seeing more info than is available in the abstract, it is difficult to draw many conclusions from the cited article. It relies upon self-reported data from an unidentified set of subjects, and moreover relates to being arrested or "taken into custody". Does that include a stern talking to by a school security guard? Since the age group begins at 8 (yes, 8), I would expect so.

Second, the incarceration rate in the US is obviously off the charts but is due not do corruption--the topic of this thread--but rather to the criminalization of so many offenses in the US, which has reached ludicrous proportions. Any number of press reports describe people facing jail time for not only trivial drug offenses but offenses such as importing rare orchids, lobsters, hardwoods, etc. which were legally exported from their source countries. That's a whole different topic, but not relevant to this thread.

Yup, I agree: off topic. But that particular assertion (one in six) is easy to research and you'll find it well-supported. If xfiltrate's assertion is off topic, so are you (and I). So who's complaining about whom?

As for the Pediatrics article, also off-topic, that's a respected, peer-reviewed journal supported by a major professional organization. If not inclined to purchase a subscription, you've merely got to decide whether you're more interested in finding fault (tempting, I'll admit, and not difficult) or addressing the central point. And before you get too carried away with your own sarcasm ("school security guard"), you might want to look into procedures for arresting juveniles, since juveniles are often arrested here.

Mark

"Equal group of law abiding Hubbers"
 

In general, if you are a member of an equal group of law abiding HUBBERS traveling in USA and in Argentina you would be more likely to be arrested in the USA than in Argentina.

Corruption is the topic here, a topic I am not addressing at presence, but would suggest a bend toward that direction.

I am just comparing equal groups of HUBBERS traveling in two different countries and questioning the potential of a random group member to be arrested. A simple concept.

If, per capita arrests are three, four, five times higher (whichever) in the USA than in Argentina ,when comparing "equal groups of Hubbers" traveling in USA and in Argentina, it is logical that each member of the "equal groups of HUBBERS" would indeed be more likely to be arrested in the USA.

Here I am only comparing HUBBERS traveling in the USA with other HUBBERS traveling in Argentina, not with the population in general.

Let's move to the HUB PUB to continue this line of "reasoning" lest we really get wobbly.

xfiltrate

corrupt police
 

My thoughts regarding the existence of bad, corrupt
police that not only instigate crime but commit crimes
themselves mirror my thoughts regarding
humanity in general.

Now, in order to understand the police one must
understand the main function of the police, which is
to prevent or stop things from happening. .
Therefore, after a while as a police officer who is
repetitively preventing or stopping things, surrounded
by other police officers who are stopping things too,
he or she if not already having been selected by the
police application procedures as a stopper, becomes a
stopper.

Society needs, as part of its control responsibily,
stoppers.

I have successfully avoided several speeding tickets
by simply sitting in the car, or on my bike, with bowed head and
saying to the police officer now standing beside me...,
"we really need to stop speeders, don't we"
Immediately their was such affinity and apparent
sharing of reality the officer would not or could
not give me a ticket. I have passed this on to many
others and all who have tried it, have confirmed my
results.

Unfortunately, some police, (cultures designated
stoppers) have also been involved in situations where
their very life depended on their ability of stopping
something from happening. This confirms the fact to
them that their very life depends on their ability to
stop things.

I believe, and this is validated by actual statistics
of police corruption, much goes unreported, that
between 5 and 6% of US police are corrupt and
committing crimes against society. This group of bad
police contaminate and recruit from the other 15% or
so of the police who do not fall into the 80% I
believe are good people doing a tough job to the best
of their ability.

Unfortunately, the best "stoppers" are the ones who
get promoted and assume the leadership over large
groups of other police. Now remember, police in
general are not starters nor changers, just look at
the stats on any activity started and run by police
like Project DARE which has, by carefully weighted
scientific statistics created more drug use than what
would have been expected if the program did not exist.
This is fact. Or the comical failures of almost every
police run community event, they can't even have their
own athletic leagues or police balls (social events)
picnics etc...because they are all trying to stop
these things from happening. I am not inventing this,
several reputable books have been written on this very
topic.

I am not sure we can even expect our police to be the
innovative starters and changers of societal behavior,
but if there is anything, even things beneficial
starting or even beneficial changings occuring in a
community you can expect the police to be right on
the scene to stop it. The court systems also operate as stoppers of behavior, not starters of good behavior nor changers of society for the better.

So to directly answer your question for both North
America and South America I believe about 5% of the police
are corrupt and committing crimes against society and
that about 15% are in some way involved by the crime
of omission (not reporting the bad police) or minimal
participation in the commission of crimes against
society, and 80% are good men and woman trying to do
what is right.

One might say 80% really want to help others survive.

I am, in the final analysis a starter of projects and
a changer and yes, if I have to I can stop things too,
so by nature I have very little in common with the
police, and represent a threat to them once they get
to know me.

This might be a good time to point out that I do agree
that every culture needs stoppers, This is an
unfortunate reality that has been created by a
relatively few really bad people. And, look what
happened to Senator Robert Kennedy because, as United
States Attorney General, he was prosecuting the
mafia/police connections in various cities throughout
North America. There is a wealth of documentation
about this existing corrupt connection available, I
have no need to be creative here.

Their main function is to catch those who have already broken the law and 'bring them to justice". Their mere presence might serve as a minor deterrent to those within sight, but does nothing at all for those out of view.

It is that bringing to justice, with its legally-sanctioned repercussions that is supposed to serve as a deterrent so that more-or-less law abiding citizens aren't tempted to break the law.

That is incorrect, in my experience. If you use the term "detained" instead of arrested, Argentina has it hands down (or "hands up" as it were).

Detained pending payment of bribes is what's I'm referring to and I think you know that's is true.

USA prisons are listed on the stock exchange
 

Look, I am tired of the ignorance ... of those who buy the lies and the propaganda.... Please understand that you can purchase stock in the USA prison system (it is listed on the stock exchange as real estate) and justice has very little or nothing to do with keeping the jails at capacity. The Feds keep funding the war on drugs to keep the jails full, not to inhibit those who break the law and bring them to justice.... WAKE UP... The US government and the banks '''' Bank of America , Citibank etc. could not make it if they were not laundering drug money, and the fines they pay for violating the law are less than a slap on the wrist... No bankers go to prison. The fines for laundering drug money is considered part of the cost of doing business.

Just look at the DARE program every statistic indicates that drug use increases whereever the DARE program has been implemented. WITHOUT EXCEPTION look at Mexico, Gusman ... head of the Sinaloa cartel escaped jail... no one knows how - right and the Mexican police only arrest the Zetas - who were originally trained by the United States special forces , but decided to create their own drug cartel.

The reason the murder rate in Chicago is through the roof is because the Mexican drug cartels are killing off the American drug cartels competition. Wake up and do a little research PLEASE,,,,

Look up"Fast and Furious" and then get real PLEASE.
Please do a little independent research and wake up.....

The USA has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prison population figure that out for yourself.

Thank you xfiltrate

Conspiracy theorists and their theories abound.

Errrr, what was the original topic. Oh yes, I remember.

Conspiracy theories - where?
 

1. CXW stock quote - Corrections Corporation of America stock price - NASDAQ.com

Corrections Corporation of America Stock Quote & Summary Data
CXW $33.43* 0.04 0.12%
*Delayed - data as of Jul. 26, 2013
Exchange: NYSE
Industry: Consumer Services
Community Rating: Bullish
Read more: CXW stock quote - Corrections Corporation of America stock price - NASDAQ.com

2. Just Say No to DARE - TIME

TIME MAGAZINE: Here�s a news flash: "Just Say No" is not an effective anti-drug message. And neither are Barney-style self-esteem mantras.
While most Americans won�t be stunned by these revelations, they�ve apparently taken a few DARE officials by surprise. According to the New York Times, after years of ignoring stubbornly low success rates, coordinators of the 18-year-old Drug Abuse Resistance Education program are finally coming around to the news that their plan to keep kids off drugs just isn�t working. That means a whole new DARE program — one which critics hope will sidestep existing pitfalls.

Read more: Just Say No to DARE - TIME

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Zetas

The origins of Los Zetas date back to 1999, when commandos of the Mexican Army's elite forces deserted their ranks and decided to work as the armed wing of the Gulf Cartel, a powerful drug trafficking organization.[9]

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaqu%C3%ADn_Guzmán_Loera

The police say Guzmán carefully masterminded his escape plan, wielding influence over almost everyone in the prison, including the facility's director.

5. Mexican drug cartels fight turf battles in Chicago - CBS News

Daily turf battles over drugs and distribution, he said, are turning parts of this Midwest city (Chicago) into a Mexican border town.

6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...rceration_rate

While Americans represent about 5 percent of the world's population, nearly one-quarter of the entire world's inmates have been incarcerated in the United States in recent years.[3] Imprisonment of America's 2.3 million prisoners, costing $24,000 per inmate per year, and $5.1 billion in new prison construction, consumes $60.3 billion in budget expenditures.

7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

Fast and Furious

8. Original topic was police corruption on Ruta 14, Argentina . My point of view is that to understand something it is necessary to compare it against something of comparable or near comparable magnitude. I live in Argentina and I feel Argentina has been given a bad rap when it comes to police corruption. My goal here is to give the readers a different - my point of view regarding police misadventures on Ruta 14.

xfiltrate

I forgot about the banks start here:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-joke-20121213

http://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtou...ring-problems/

http://www.policymic.com/articles/10...cording-to-fbi

As far as the role of governments selectively prosecuting drug cartels - you are on your own, if you need references post request here.

No Problemos
 

Not sure if anyone cares but we went through this 'trouble area' from Buenos Aires to Puerto Iguazu on Ruta 12 and 14 on 16th-19th September 2013 and it was smooth sailing. Were waived through all the check points. Not sure if we were just lucky or if the police are growing tired of this game, one can only hope.

My experience this month was nothing but friendly wave bys and an occasional liscence check. Argentina esta tranquilo...

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2

ruta 14 km 139
 

Ruta 14 Km 139 Southbound
Add mile marker 139 to the list. I was stopped at the southbound check point today and told I was speeding. The speed limit was 120 KM (75 MPH) and I was never over 70 MPH becuase I only had 350 pesos and needed to make my gas stretch to make it to my destination. After demanding 1200 pesos and a trip to the computer to use Google Translate they took 300 pesos and left me without enough gas to make it.

I used my Visa to purchase gas but it left a sour taste for Entre Rios. I probably wont return on that route again. A much better route north is BA to Rosario to Santa Fe then north to the falls.

I had the same problem at the same place. km 139
the officer wanted 1400 pesos for speeding, after discussion, I paid 50 dollars for lighting fault!!

Anti Corruption Touristico Police
 

This may be useful, not sure as we have not needed to put it to the test yet.

Our plan if they are trying to do for bogus crap is to pull our our video camera and start filming straight away identifying faces and badge numbers, we have a card with all the Anti Corruption numbers and will hand it to them and tell them to ring the phone number right there and then.

One of our fellow travellers did this and the Police backed on quicker than a rat in a drain pipe....so yes the immediate threat back to them may work.

Try it, nothing to lose, also make sure you were not doing anything wrong.


Argentina

The Argentine Federal Police have established a special Tourist Police Unit to receive complaints and investigate crimes against tourists. The unit, located at Corrientes 436 in Buenos Aires, responds to calls around the clock at 4346-5748 or toll-free 0800-999-5000 from anywhere in the country. The Mendoza Tourist Police Unit, open 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. daily, is located at San Martin 1143, telephone 0261-413-2135. After hours, the Mendoza unit may be reached by cell phone at 0261-15-6444-324.

Hi everybody.

I'm Argentinian and I did most of the routes here and I was stoped several times by the police, Gendarmeria (this is more for routes an borders.) and yes, they stop you and think how much money can get from you.

By law you don't need to pay ANY ticket directly to the officer. You ask for the ticket, then need to put the law that you break and the proof. For example, if you where speeding they need to put the ticket from the machine that measure the speed with the picture of your bike. (in fact here in argentina motorbikes are exent of speed ticket because about a legal issue (long story).

They always ask about stupid think, like reflective vest witch is not mandatory.

Its sad to read about this but its the reality here in Argentina.

They just want money if you show you decided they let you go.

Dont be scared about this. If somebody is planing to travel here in Argentina and want my phone number please send me a private message, I'll glad to help.

I'll contact some friends at Gerndarmeria and I'll show this post to them.

Take care guys!

Yet to have the slightest problem at any road blocks, so hope it continues.

I carry copies of the official complaints form for Argentina, but was talking to a fellow traveller in Usuaia and now I have files of complaint forms for several S American countries complete with appropriate logos and addresses where they can be submitted.

Any chance we could get our hands on some of the docs please ... will swap beer somewhere?

We have most of the anti corruption phone numbers etc too, if wanted I will freely post them up here no worries, anything to help fello travellers have a better day :clap:

Every time I'm stopped on Route 14. The checkpoint that more complicated is what is left after the overpass toward Colon Buenos Aires.
More than once claimed excessive speeds, especially in the areas of access that the speed limit is 80km / h.
Have to have patience and reason with them, I always take 50 separate weights and say I have only this amount of money.

Luck to those who go through there!

Alessander Souto

https://spideroak.com/browse/share/T...omplaint-Forms

has the new series of forms and

https://spideroak.com/browse/share/T...tuff/argentina

has the original one for Argentina

Curt said he used a photocopy of one he had previously and it did work.

BTW - If you genuinely get done for a traffic infringement, then I reckon you should just pay up - but pay at an official place rather than at the roadside.

Thanks Tony, will print some off now.

These are the numbers we have have for each place, I have them on a card in my pocket and on our lappy.

Anti Corruption

Argentina

The Argentine Federal Police have established a special Tourist Police Unit to receive complaints and investigate crimes against tourists. The unit, located at Corrientes 436 in Buenos Aires, responds to calls around the clock at 4346-5748 or toll-free 0800-999-5000 from anywhere in the country. The Mendoza Tourist Police Unit, open 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. daily, is located at San Martin 1143, telephone 0261-413-2135. After hours, the Mendoza unit may be reached by cell phone at 0261-15-6444-324.

Bolivia

In Sucre, the Infotur Office is located at
Dalence Street on the corner of Argentina Street Phone: (591-4) 641-0200.
Blog: infotursucre@blogspot.com.
Email: infotur.sre@gmail.com
Web: www.chuquisacaturistica.com.gob
Peru
Offices of the Police of Tourism
Lima
The central headquarters of the Police of Tourism are located in the city of Lima.
Address: 2465 Javier Prado Este Avenue, San Borja, in the local of the Museo de la Nación. Telephone: +(51 1) 225-8698 / 225-8699 / 476-9882
Fax: +(51 1) 476-7708
Arequipa
Address: Jerusalen 315-A Street Telephone: +(51 54) 23-9888
Cajamarca
Address: Plaza Amalia Puga w/n Telephone: +(51 44) 823438
Chiclayo
Address: Av. Saenz Peña No 830 Telephone: +(51 74) 22-7615 / 23-5181
Cusco
Address: Av. El Sol w/n, Templo Koricancha Telephone: +(51 84) 22-1961
Huaraz
Address: Plaza de Armas - Municipalidad de Huaraz Telephone: +(51 44) 72-1341 / 72-1592
Ica
Address: Av. Arenales w/n Urb. San Joaquín. Telephone: +(51 34) 22-4553
Iquitos
Address: Airport Coronel FAP. Francisco Secada Telephone: +(51 94) 23-7067
Nazca
Address: Los Incas s/n., Cuadra 1 Telephone: +(51 34) 52-2105
Puno
Address: Jr. Deustua No 538 Telephone: +(51 54) 35-7100
Trujillo
Address: Independencia Cuadra 6 - Casa Goicochea Telephone: +(51 44) 24-3758 / 23-3181
Uraguay

Address
Street Uruguay 1667
Telephone
Number 0800-8226
Click To Dial +598 800 8226 (tel:+598 800 8226)
Paraguay

Thanks for info, very useful,

Aaaaaggghhhh! What a rip-off
 

Feeling betrayed!!!

Had everything organised. GPS-enabled dash camera pointing forward, another camera pointed at the driver's window, paperwork ready for action etc etc.

Got to 341 and there were half a dozen officers harrassing the southbound traffic and only one lone officer on my side - and he was chatting to the driver of a small truck.

So I coasted up, stopped at the stop sign, waited a couple of seconds and then accelerated gently away. What a let-down.

Did get stopped at the checkpoint a long way south. Had been VERY careful since leaving BA to switch the headlights on, but we stopped for coffee a few km south and I forgot to turn them back on.

Got waved over next to a long line of (seized??) vehicles, many of which had taken root, and young bloke kept shouting "infraction, infraction", in between explaining in perfectly understandable Spanish that lights had to be on 24/7. Wanted the car papers and drivers license so gave him a copy of the title and two years out of date International Drivers licence - which he studied carefully. Apparently the fact that the names didn't match didn't register. Then he wanted me to get out of the car which I refused to do. He went to the back and beckoned me out several times very insistently before I got out. He then tried to make something of the camper overhanging the truck bed. Camper has a bumper bar and all the required lights so I suggested he was on the wrong track. Anyway he stalked off across the road, handed my papers to another policeman who shrugged and ambled back across to me, handed back the papers and waved me away. I confirmed what he was on about, shrugged and got in and drove away. One of life's little mysteries I guess - but it did gee me up for a confrontation at km 341. Probably just as well they ignored me as keeping my temper isn't one of my strong points.

Anti-corruption forms for Central/South America
 

We have not made it to R14 or 12 yet, but have got through a number of persistent attempts. Mostly in Mexico, one in El Salvador and a difficult aggressive attempt in Venezuela. It must be said that the corrupt police are very much the exception, the situation improving.

We run a routine, as has been well covered, we use time, ignorance and we made up anti-corruption forms for Central/South American countries - country flag, country specific language etc. Its similar to the one linked above by Tony.

Of course it is all psychology, time; filling the form out takes time, two pages asking all details. They may be suspicious the form is not official but your confidence sets them off balance. The police will start to fill it out. We get them to write clearly if they scribble, reading out what they write, name, badge number etc. When it gets to the section asking to attach a photo, we pop out the camera. We do everything else first, the form comes out when we have run out of our usual time sapping patter. Always give them a graceful way to drop the attempt, or you start dealing with their machismo.

Been not only successful but entertaining so far :clap:(except Venezuela - military problem, quite different). Forms in a Word format, happy to zip 'em and email them to anyone who may need - contact us at burtway.com. You just have to get them printed out - pop them on a USB stick and can do this in almost any town. Suggest you print them double sided.

John

@johnbrooks - i have filled the contact form :thumbup1:

Thanks for your offer!

Looks i have something to read, the next days.. Thanks for let us readers travel with you!


Surfy

Will send them through, all countries. You wont need many, eg Belize - Police not motivated to go to work let alone anything else. Dont use them on the Venezuelan Military :gun_bandana:

If you find any errors, such as translations, if you make any improvements, please tell me and I will correct them for anyone else requiring these little persuaders. Print them from Word so they hold format.

Many thanks.

May it continue.

Limited experience compared to some, but in 3 months in Mexico and now 9 months in Chile, Argentina, Brazil and now Bolivia, we have not been subjected to a single inappropriate action by Police.

Well, apart from the stupidity of a couple of rambo cops in Argentina, but that was nothing to do with looking for money

Ruta 14 must be improving
 

Yup, same with us. We were up and down Ruta 14 in the first half of Nov 14 and had no problems at all. Plenty of police posts and we were stopped and asked where we were heading twice but no problems. If they have police bikes at the checkpoint they're probably Yamaha 750's and if you point at them smile and admire them they seem to like that!

Update April 2015
 

Traveled 12 and 14 yesterday. Again lots of police and radar checkpoints. I was waived over on 12 at the now infamous km 28. The cop had an attitude and was pointing at my jacket and left handle bar for some reason. I smiled, introduced myself, shook hands and told him what a great country ARG was. I also spoke no spanish and played the dumb gringo. He was looking frustrated so I ask him "passport"? He nodded so I handed it over. He looked at every page, mumbled United States, looked at my plate as if to compare numbers and waived me on. It appeared the language barrier throw him off guard. No more stops or problems up the 14.

Hey guys!

We tried to download the Anti Corruption Forms some of you postet a few pages ago.
Unfortunately the links don´t work.
It always says the folders are empty...
Do we do something wrong or are the links not working anymore?
:helpsmilie:

Cheers, currently from Urugugy on our way up to Alaska
Bea & Helmut

Although I don't think you will need them I have Chile and Argentina I can email you if you want, ping me back at twomotokiwis@gmail.com

Cheers Andi

I had no bad experiences in Argentina, Chile or Peru.

In Bolivia the Police asked two times for a money, but leave me pass without paying. Also a uniformed Police officer asked for 10 USD for stamping the passport at the border to Peru (Copacobana) - needs 2mins of discussion to sort it.

Two weeks the same border was without any hassle :rolleyes2:

My Blog: Adventure-Overland

Surfy

One big advantage of not knowing enough Spanish to respond to requests for bribes is I don't know for sure whether I have been asked for a bribe or not. Only sure thing is I have yet to pay one.

Anyone wanting those corruption forms should be able to find them here

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...DA&usp=sharing

Hi guys!

With the new link Tony LEE posted we´ve been able to download all of the forms. Thank you very much! :thumbup1:

We haven´t had any problems in over 6 month in South America yet, but you never know. It´s a good feeling to have these forms ready to hand in case we really need them.

Cheers from Uruguay
Bea & Helmut