Confiscated Uruguay Bikes and Vehicles
 

Im hearing 18 Bikes and Vehicles have been confiscated Uruguay,

From what i have read here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Over...1921344336841/

The vehicles were confiscated due to the storage facility not being able to provide the documentation for the vehicles, whilst the owners were out the country.

Its appears the the Aduana, have now sized vehicles from both Nuevo Helvecia & Sandra's

More info here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Over...1921344336841/

Uruguay
 

More info pls, as not everybody on the HU uses Fakebook. Thank you. Gracias. mika :scooter:

This is the text from the linked article in the posts:

In a proceeding carried out by the Regional Headquarters of Southwest Surveillance and the Customs Administration of Juan Lacaze, last Thursday, September 14, 18 vehicles were seized with an estimated value exceeding one million dollars.

The procedure was carried out in a hotel of Nueva Helvecia, after an anonymous denunciation received by the National Direction of Customs.
The 18 vehicles seized and did not have the corresponding documentation of entry or nationalization.

- Truck Brand Volkswagen California
- SUV brand Land Rover
- Truck Brand Toyota
- Truck Brand Toyota
- Truck Brand Land Rover
- Truck Fiat
- Truck Brand Mercedes Benz
- Motor home Brand IVECO
- Motor home Brand MAN
- Motor Home Brand Mercedez Benz
- Motor Home Brand Man
- Motor Home Brand Man
- Motor Home Brand Fiat
- Motor Home Brand IVECO
- Motor Home Brand Mercedez Benz
- Motor Home Brand Mercedez Benz
- Motor Home Brand Mercedez Benz
- Motorcycle Honda Honda TRANSALP

Other posts on FB say that these two places were raided Nuevo Helvecia and Sandra's.

I would suggest if people need info on this to join the group Overlanding The Americas as some of the people affected are posting updates and general seems the best source of information right now

I will try and post updates here if i see them

Reason given by aduana is that entry of a vehicle under a TVIP is conditional on the vehicle being there for tourism purposes. A vehicle parked up while the authorised driver is out of the country is obviously not being used for tourism.

Trouble is the practice has been condoned for many years.

Court case on 18th when a judge will rule on whether aduana action is legal.

Aduana web site is here -- http://www.aduanas.gub.uy/innovaport...-helvecia.html

and there are photos of the vehicles. Sandras storage also involved and that is in addition to the 18 vehicles mentioned here

Uruguay
 

Tony Lee,

What, where is Sandras?

thanks,
xfiltrate

Sandras
 

Tony Lee,

Is this the Sandras you mentioned?

Parking en Uruguay

xfiltrate

Info regarding TVIP confiscations
 

[Edit by moderator] I have researched - a phone call to our Argentine attorney - to discover the why behind the recent confiscations by the aduana (customs) of Uruguay of vehicles/motos in Uruguay on an expired or non existent TVIPs.

Uruguay has always been very lax about issuing and enforcing TVIP policy. The reality is if a vehicle/moto overstays its' TVIP, it is forfeited, with little chance of appeal.

It was explained to me that the courts are not equipped to handle the volume of potential appeals. Of course, money talks and a lot of money talks louder, so this is not definitive.

As far as I have determined it was the attached statement from Sandras, found on the the Parking en Uruguay web site, that grabbed the attention of the authorities /aduana (customs) of Uruguay. A cover story has been invented and presented .

As those who read here know it is illegal to sell a foreign registered vehicle/moto entered into a Mercosur country on a TVIP in that country... - and yet the "Sandras" web site - at least without further explanation makes it appear that "Sandras" can sell foreign plated vehicles entered into Uruguay on a TVIP in Uruguay. That is if you read between the lines....

Apparently a sting operation is ongoing. I doubt the aduana (customs) will confirm what my attorney has explained to me, due to current operations.

So, while "Sandras" carefully worded offer to sell vehicles without the owner being present might not be against TVIP policy, the inference that TVIP entered vehicles might be sold is against TVIP policy.

This is a fine point to be determined by past behavior of Sandras and a court of law.

[edit]

Anyone who has read my posts knows I have championed the cause of obeying TVIP policy regarding the prohibition of the sale of motos entered into a country on a TVIP, in that country.

I feel confident that those with valid TVIPs issued in Uruguay will not lose their vehicles/motos, but those with non existent TVIPs or expired TVIPs might suffer the consequences.

[edit]

If I had to guess, i suspect the insurance companies are - in some way - due to a current liability case - behind this crackdown. If the insurance company can prove an illegal sale of the vehicle they insure, the insurance company does not have to pay liabilities.

xfiltrate

attached thumbnail is from : Parking en Uruguay

Yes, and she has confirmed the action in an email to another traveller

Problem is ALL vehicles have been placed under customs seal and people have been forced into expensive plane tickets and long delays without any access to their vehicles or possessions. Seems that the action is not just against expired tips, although obviously there will be a few caught in the net and they will be in big trouble, but against all vehicles that are not engaged in ongoing day to day touristic activities under the immediate control of the visa holder which is the whole basis for allowing entry in the first place. A truck sitting in a yard for 11 months with the owner back in Germany loses the protection of the Vienna Convention on road Traffic and becomes liable for import duties. Sandra claims to have valid TVIPs for every vehicle in her yard. Another traveller was at the aduana within five hours of the confiscation with valid TVIP to no avail so I would suggest there is no reason why this couldn't happen in Argentina too. Sandra's place was the second and the original at the hotel was more than a week ago. I doubt that Uruguay cares two hoots about foreigners swapping vehicles because it and the storage has been going on for many years anbd must be the worst kept secret in history. Make no waves and the authorities won't care. Don't ask, don't tell etc etc

If I hadn't sold the camper it would have been parked at one of these places and then I would have had the problem of deciding whether it was worth spending 16000 dollars on airfares plus hotels to rescue a vehicle that I sold for 18000. I suspect it would have stayed there and good riddance. Frankly, I'm fairly glad to be shot of the whole place. The scenery was wonderful and the people were great, but the constant concern about what sort of crap the next person in uniform was going to pull - while a bit of a challenge in the early days - took all of the fun out of the journey

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Over...erica/?fref=nf is probably the best source of news, but probably nothing new to report until after the court case

Touring Uruguay en absencia ??
 

Tony Lee, thanks for the update.

I believe Sandra and the owners with valid titles and valid TVIPs will prevail in court - perhaps with a warning.... the impounding of so many vehicles is bound to attract diplomatic attention with accompanying pressures expertly applied. Those with "swapped " titles or expired TVIPs should buckle up for a rough ride.

As far as Uruguay not caring "two hoots" about foreign registered vehicles being "swapped" - at least in Argentina, careful attention is paid to titles and TVIPs.

I would not suggest that anyone consider transferring a vehicle title after the vehicle has been entered into a Mercosur country on a TVIP in Uruguay, Argentina etc. And, remember, once an illegal title transfer is discovered, any insurance on the vehicle is null and void.

For touring in Absencia...
Since all TVIPs have provisions for secondary drivers, I would suggest - and have done this very successfully - name a secondary driver who is in country while owner is out of the country - this should foil any attempt, on the government's part to say the vehicle is not being used for tourism.

In cases of extended absence, I have suggested this during the ten years of operating our motorcycle parking business. This also allows for a backup driver if the owner is incapacitated.

I maintain the recent attention in Uruguay has to do with illegal sale of foreign registered vehicles and all the rest is cover while the sting continues.

Let me assure you, before any vehicle is released by the government, a complete international title search will be undertaken for each vehicle impounded. Otherwise, the government could be accused of aiding and abetting a criminal act by releasing the vehicle to someone other than the legal owner.

So, the titles of all vehicles, swapped or sold, or not will be investigated carefully.

There are periodic international title checks on "suspicious" foreign registered vehicles, especially in BsAs.

This all represents much more than "two hoots," unfortunately for those who have "swapped" vehicles.

xfiltrate

xfiltrate - You say there was some sort of insurance claim and that any Mercosur insurance is not valid when a vehicle is sold within the region?

It seems quite normal for people to sell their vehicles, and swap the TIP's at the border.

Some i hear are able to have the title put in their name so all documents match others travel with poder.

Are Mercosur countries in a customs union, applying the same rule throughout?

If some one had to sell their vehicle to a foreigner / tourist how would they be able to go about this with out importing it fully and paying taxes?

Rob, there are a heap of vehicles getting around with fake paperwork, fake license plates, doctored documents and expired registrations back home and long term TVIPs that were also forged or falsely sworn, and fake insurance documents, and contrary to the opinions often expressed that they don't care about such things south of the border, all it takes is a serious accident and people will then start digging. Having valid insurance is pretty much a get out of jail card and conversely, no or fake or invalid insurance is go directly to jail. Insurance companies particularly start from the basic premise that the world is full of crooks so lets prove that and deny the claim anyway - and that is back in our home countries, so can't imagine they will be any more willing to pay out in South America.

Rob, what you say about buying and selling is perfectly correct and I have done it several times, each time with the end result being a legal properly registered title and registration and what's more registration that is permanently valid back home and with mandatory insurance policies that were in force and covering both parties at all times. Granted, a few pale grey areas and of course one black area in that as far as the government was concerned the transfer was illegal, but ...

except of course when the border people aren't taking any notice of either on the way out. (and I'm quite happy it is that way too, otherwise I might be still in Brazil explaining why my TVIP (which wasn't issued when we came in anyway) was 'somewhat' overdue. At least the aduana official there was awake and we had a pleasant chat before he waved me through unlike the lazy sod at Iguazu who was asleep in the shade)

Trouble with that is the secondary driver has to be at the border when first entering. I've heard of people managing to add one by visiting a head office aduana, but that seems to be just the luck of the day because others get told to buzz off

The facts
 

My responses to the quote below are contained within the quote and in green
, xfiltrate

[edit by moderator] If the vehicle to be sold was entered into a Mercosur country on a TVIP, it cannot be legally sold to another tourist or to a resident. [edit by moderator] PERIOD

Tony Lee, you are right as usual, secondary drivers need to be included on the TVIP at the border, or in Argentina - just go to the aduana office on Plaza de Mayo, BsAs where they will happily include secondary drivers on your TVIP. This eliminates the need to return to the border to include a secondary driver.

[edit by moderator]

xfiltrate

As long as the traveller is legal & legit -which apparently was not the case in the confiscationGATE in Uruguay (in case there were vehicles with expired TIPs or illegal sales/ transfers)- and the officials DO their job and are not corrupted to the bones (which happens quite often), then I agree that nobody should be characterized.. But it seems that both sides are competing who can cheat better.. not in this case but in general!

I am about to leave my car in Peru for 2 months and fly home after 3 years (which apparently has a formal procedure to legally suspend your TIP but involves some bribing and you need 3 weeks minimum to sort out everything), I cannot hide my skepticism as well as my sympathy to all of them who found themselves in the difficult position to deal with the law in a foreign country and run the risk to lose their vehicle/ house-on-wheels!

Hope it will have a fair/ happy end for both sides!

One more thing:

We, middle class-more fortunate/privileged, travellers from "more developed" countries (N. America, Oceania, Europe) tend to think that we can do our shit easier without remorses in a foreign "less developed" country just because there is corruption, mismanagement. However, we wouldnt dare to do something similar in our countries. PERIOD!

When we were in Africa, I was paying 1000 euro every year for taxes & road fees in the Greek state (which is so famous for their corruption) just because I didnt want to risk my trip and of course I wanted to be legit and legal in the SUPER corrupted Africa!

On our way though, we met people from "more developed-organized" with no corruption countries than Greece like Germany, Austria & Netherlands who had "cleverly" suspended their registration in order to avoid paying hefty taxes for their vehicle in their home country! One Dutch guy with a Land Cruiser, had to pay 200 euro every single month in taxes in case he had a valid Dutch registration. Fair enough!

At the same time, I never had - and I still dont have- any trust to the local cheap insurances we buy at the borders and so on. Neither, I trust the traffic police, the customs people and so on.. But, I do RESPECT every single of them until they will start giving me shit.

We, middle class-more fortunate/privileged, travellers from "more developed" countries HAVE TO DECIDE if we follow the local rules and stick to them. Bribing, corruption and mismanagement is a great excuse to bend them, forge/ fake documents and so on just because.. "who cares, they are ****ing corrupted".. (Trust me, I know very well from my country's continuous failures and misfortunes).

In case they will prove that there have been illegal sales, titles swaps and expired TIPs, this is a good lesson that we, middle class-more fortunate/privileged, travellers from "more developed" countries, have to take and study thoroughly. And learn from it that a smile, some respect and of course legal documents is way better than bribing, faking & cheating.

Again, I want to express my sympathy to all of them who may lose their vehicle.

Actually we are a couple. Nikos & Georgia from Xalkida, Evoia island. Glad to hear about your origins bier. We will be in Argentina sometime in 2019. We travel very slowly and let our visa expire before moving to the next country. We would love to meet up at some point!

My sympathy & compassion goes to them who are legal & legit and are just part of the horror story of confiscation just because their vehicle was among the others with potentially expired/ fake TIPs etc.

For god shake, we are all grown ups and must take over our responsibilities and collateral damages.. even by paying in money (which is the less harmful, yet irresponsible action). :rolleyes2:

My characterisation of people in Uniforms is driven partly from personal experience and partly from a couple of years of moderating all the entries coming on to the ioverlander database where there are countless stories of entrenched corruption by those in power. That isn't to say that the majority of officials are corrupt but of course it only takes a couple of cases to tarnish the whole system.
There must be a reason why entries on iOverlander about corrupt police in Chile are virtually non-existent while far too many entries for police stops in Bolivia and Argentina and to a lesser extent, Peru, has "CORRUPT" somewhere in the name. Colombia and Ecuador it is rare while a couple of Central American countries get lots of mentions. Brazil is pretty much absent from the corruption list and Uruguay seems to be on a par with Chile. For the countries that I have been through, my experience mirrors the consensus view even though I haven't necessarily been personally targeted. I actually remove some of the "corrupt" words in the title when the description doesn't justify the accusation, but many deserve the rap so they stay.

What I did say is that in many of the countries, at every interaction with anyone in uniform, it is a constant concern as to whether this one or that one is going to put their hand out or try something on, or deliberately misinterpret the law or whatever and .that tends to take the enjoyment out of traveling. In USA and Canada, Australia and the whole of greater Europe out as far as Turkey that has NEVER been a concern. In the first group, officials are corrupt until proven clean and in the second group they are clean until proven corrupt. Big difference in resultant attitude by travelers towards officials. Here on HUBB the same thing happens. There is still a sticky about a police stop on the way up to the falls and that tarnishes peoples perceptions even now DESPITE it being a couple of years since a new entry was posted. Perhaps time to unsticky that thread.

Must say though I have posed the question a few times - why is it that police on the roadside are always described as corrupt (even when there was no adverse interaction) when adding entries to ioverlander, but the ones who help travellers in the towns and let them use the police compound and showers and internet and escort them to safe overnighting spots are all described as guardian angels.

No point in suggesting the owners of these places should bear any blame either.

The usual sequence of events is a hotel or restaurant owner is asked by a customer if they can stay the night. No problem usually. Is it OK to put it on iOverlander? No problem. Then more and more turn up and still no problem. Technically the hotel owner is breaking the law because he is now operating a RV park without a license. No problem because nobody complained and the local police eat there occasionally so .... Next step is an overlander asks if it is OK to leave the truck there for a couple of weeks. Sure, no problem. Pretty soon - and you can blame iOverlander for that if you like - it is 5 years later and there are twenty vehicles parked for up to a year. EVERYONE is happy.

Who is to blame?

AND if the story I read about an overlander asking aduana if it was OK to park their vehicle in BA while they did a day trip to Uruguay on the ferry and was refused permission was true, then ....

A reminder...

So, any update for those who have no FB?

I hope the person who posted this on Faceook dont mind - There was a meeting on the 18th this month between the aduana and the involved storage and one vehicle owner and their respective lawyers. The lawyers of the storage asked for proof that storage of foreign vehicles without the owners present is illegal - which the lawyers of Aduana couldnt present. So the case is sent to a higher court. Its presumed it will take at least 10 days more.

To be contiued...

For updates see this post on FB, Facebook Post

Which is on the Overlanding the Americas Facebook Group

Further to certain individuals taking over this thread with wild speculation i think its safe to say the best non opinionated factual information will be in the group above.

because i can not see the group on facebook i would be very happy about some current informations here!

Thank you!

i heard/read that the affected persons got their vehicle back?!

Has anybody more information and/or can confirm that?

Latest is that there is a five day window for the Aduana to appeal the finding and 15 to 20 days after that any vehicle covered by a valid TVIP will be returned. Strongly recommended to be there at the time the vehicles are released

No indication as to whether there will be any changes to the system, but I'd say it would be on the cards.

Cost to people involved - $500 share of lawyers fees, airfairs over (maybe three airfares for some) and weeks of accommodation costs.

As to whether Argentina is a perfectly safe alternative. Depending on which aduana official you talk to the answer will be Yes, or no, which is precisely the same range of answers previously given at borders by Uruguay aduana

Just a slight update - the letter my info was based on apparently only applies to 5 vehicles held at Sandras. Others are expected to follow but nothing mentioned yet

An earlier message said that owners of one large group of owners chipped in several hundred dollars each to pay for a lawyer. Probably it was the original confiscatees at the hotel

As for Argentina, one poster on the fb page who left Uruguay at the time of the confiscations reorted his conversation at the Arg border, and the officer was adamant that while the legal position in Uruguay might be a but murky, that was not the case in Arg where leaving vehicles is strictly against the law.
as always, your mileage may vary, but 2hat never chqnges in S America is that every day you interact with officials you get to experience new surprises. Some good and some decidedly not so good

Doubt it. The vehicles confiscated were all typical collection of overlanding vehicles ranging from a motorbike to a very expensive truck.

Friend owns one of the original vehicles stored at the hotel and he is not aware of any connection with drug cartels. Given a lot of people have been cooling their heels for several weeks doing little but ask questions, I'd think any conspiracy theories would have emerged long ago. Are there any vehicles unaccounted for at the hotel or at Sandras???

This is a summary if his report as at today

At least I am not involved in this.

Fairly simple xfiltrate - just compare the timeline of the newspaper article you referred to (Caracas, Monday November 20,2017), to the timeline of the original article and aduana website information posted a couple of months ago. No connection whatsoever. There were actually far more than 17 overlander vehicles confiscated, but the photos of the first batch of confiscations were clearly published on at least two sites many weeks ago, and I easily recognised two of those vehicles and they do not belong to drug barons, mafia dons or any other underworld figure real or imaginary. Perhaps the motorbike did belong to the criminals but if so, they weren't going to get away very fast.

First article is at http://www.rubenredaelli.com/mas-de-...ia-por-aduana/

And the second one is at http://www.aduanas.gub.uy/innovaport...-helvecia.html Fecha: 15/09/2017

Conspiracy theories????

As for legal opinions, they are prone to a very high failure rate when put to the test. On average 50% fail to win.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ny...AVrk=w296-h198

The only boats these vehicles have been associated with are either the one that took them across the Darien Gap or the Grimaldi roro from Hamburg

The official Aduana site said (via google translate)
Note - 18 vehicles, not 17 plus of course a few more at Sandras place. extra Mercosur, not local

Your source said but of course the overlander vehicles seized don't belong to locals. If they did, how would the foreigners who do own them be getting them back after a court case. One of the vehicles I inspected back in Germany just after it was built and I have since followed its path by tracker all over Europe and South America, including periods of several months stored in other countries so I don't think it is one of the 17 you are referring to.

Seems that all confiscated overlanders' vehicles have been released to their owners. Also customs are said to be advising those entering Uruguay that they are not to just leave their vehicles unless they make a formal application to Aduana so in that regard it is similar to procedures in a few other countries - ie Peru and Chile and Panama and maybe Mexico.

No mention of any fines or if there were any vehicles that had overstayed the one year.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Sounds great - and easy enough - when you KNOW what the procedure is. Thanks Tony LEE!

storage uruguay
 

sounds good that the vehicles have been released by customs!!

thank you Tony LEE for reporting it here on the Hubb.

see you here in Bolivia in March for the HU mini meeting.

Saludos mika beer:scooter:

Hmmmm, My big truck camper surrounded by all those bikers.

Anyway, sold it and back in the world of certainty and the rule of law. Enjoyed South America, but mostly glad to be out of it.