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GS running baddle with Mexican fuel - looking for ideas.
I´m i´m in Creel, Mexico, and my bike is running pretty bad.
It´s a 2003 GS 1150. It dies almost every time it goes to idle. It looks like a bike w/o fuel injection, like the old carb bikes, when the altitude makes difference on the performance. (I´m at about 7.000) Very odd for a fuel injection bike and since I dont understant much of mechanics I would like to ask for help on this forum. This is the full report: Was running fine when using gas 91, first gas was in USA, second was Premium, in Mexico Then the third gas the 91 was not available, so I have to use the normal one, from a Pemex source (not those that they seel near the roard) I had about 4 gallons of good stuff, then I fill the not so good stuff (5 more gallons of mixed) (11gallon tank) After about 70 miles the bike start running baddly. at every ´tope´ (the mexican speed bumper), the bike almost die when I resume accelaration. If I resuem gas on any gear, it ´coffs´ baddly and ask for a lower gear. I have to keep it over 1500rpm or it will die. I tought I had a bad gas, so I stop after 130 miles and filled up with the good stuff again (91) with about 3.4 more gallons. Still the same. I noticed that if I stop the bike for few minutes, then turn on again, it will run fine for about 5 minutes then will start acting funny again. It has new spark plugs (BMW) and I changed the fuel filter just before this trip. Any advise? I´m not sure when I will be able to check it again, but I will try tomorrow. There is no internet here on my room, so I´using this cafe, that will be closed tomorrow (sunday) If you happen to be here in Creel, I´m on the Magaritas Hotel, the one on the Cruzeiro street (yes... there are 2 Margaritas Hotel) :) Thank you for any ideas. |
Oh I really miss the 'tope's- not!
Well I'd be quite sure it's not the fuel quality as I put any old crap in my 2001 GS1150 on my trip and never had problems like that. The altitude should not affect it much either so I'd suggest getting it looked at. Trouble is you would need to find a Beemer place to plug it in to their machine which would hopefully tell you whats wrong. When was the last time you synchronised the throttle bodlies as they can go out over time and cause poor running? Also is your idle speed correct, ie around 1100 or so rpm? The dealer in Quito had stupidly set mine at around 800rpm and it always wanted to stall before I took it back and got them to do it right, even though they insisted it was ok. This site seems to have a list of about 12 BMW places in Mexico: BMW Motorrad México good luck! |
I'll second what Mike says. R11xx can pretty much eat bad fuel, down to 80 octan leaded, like I did in Iran. Mine only did some valve noise that was noticable if very hard acceleration at low-RPMs.
Maybe start with a throttle sync as said, make sure the both throttle cables are properly seated in on the throttle bodies, reset Motronic. Check the spark pugs colour for some signs of carbon build up and fuel mixture. If this doesn't help then just in case you can check if the Hall sensor plate is fully fixed under the alternator belt's bottom pulley. Just guessing... Keep us posted how it goes. |
I've done some reading for you and all I can say is pull over empty your tank completely check your fileter, and then refill with the good stuff. Might be water in the mixture, might be blocked filter, but start with the fuel and then work from that point.
Hope that can be of help. |
It might be fuel starvation , check your filter for crud , the hose routing for kinks and the tank vent .
Always look for the simple stuff when ,an otherwise reliable bike, begins to play up . |
Filter. Filter. Filter.
gotta be the filter or water as others have noted. good idea to drain and start over with good stuff. in remote areas use some STP or other octane booster when you fill up. it worked wonders on my FI Dakar in Bolivia.
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As typed before....filter.
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How much air do you feel coming out of the exhaust baffle?
Is it like normal? And also check that the Air filter is ok, apart from that like I said eariler Fuel Filter. I use a Mr. Funnel when I top up, we had some bad gas in the UK at hundreds of petrol stations, so I use mine all the time. Mr. Funnel Let us know what you find out. |
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What size do you use and does it slow down the refueling much? Stephan |
bad running GS
Glad to see you made it to Creel already.Now this problem ." Bad gas " is a common claim but highly unlikely. My GS 1100 has never suffered from Mexican gasoline, run it on Magna Sin all the time with an occasional tank of Premium.
I agree with the suggestion that the cause is probably filter related , sounds like fuel starvation.No pinched fuel line after filter change ? Another point to check is the overflow drain from the filler neckThis can get blocked with dust, dead bugs and prevents overfill gas and rainwater from draining away and affect tank venting.If bike is left out in the rain or heavydew a puddle of water collects around the cap and will get into the tank when you open up for a refill, contaminate your supply.It can be a real long job with wire pokers and compressed air to get that labyrinthine setup cleaned out. Also check that the throttle cables are properly seating in the nipple ends at the throttle bodies.It is possible to get some dirt, weed stubble ( ran over some tumbleweed lately?) or cleaning rag bit stuck under the throttle cable and pulley at the throttle body end and this will throw them really out of synch. It can be so bad that the computer totally gets confused and runs fuel to only one cylinder. How is the condition of your battery? If weak it may not have sufficient power for running injection pump at capacity.How is condition of ignition coil? This may be okay on checking at idle but again deteriorating once bike warms up and changes electrical characteristics of the system.. Although one might think that power would come from the alternator , a healthy battery is always required for running the systems on these computer bikes.Bad battery telltale is in the dash display when the ABS system constantly refuses to go into functional mode and leaves red light flashing. Wish you luck in rectifying the problem so you can enjoy the trip. By the way, which route to Creel did you finally wind up taking? |
I´m back here at the forum. Well, tomorrow I will check all the advices
Double check the cables and the vents first thing tomorrow morning Limited internet access here, so I will print all this and check it tomorrow. :) thank you all and I will be back here with the results from my check :) |
Well, the current situation:
Short version. Nothing got better. I did all but the removing the gas filter. I will cut short my off-road segment of my trip and will ride home one day earlier. Long version: I start checking the throttle cables. They are both fine. They move together as the slide turn on the gas. both are seating on the grove. The vents I double check the color code for both and the are fine. I blow air from the bottom and the wife help check it goes out just fine on the top. so no clog vent. As well there is no gas pressure when opening the tank after about 45 minutes riding. I could not find any product to put inside the tank as a winter parking... they don't have it here... :), so, not sure on that option. The battery cables are pretty firm and the bike start at the first contact, even after 1 day w/o any ridding. (yesterday) I try the bypass screws... to every direction I move it, the bike runs worst. Immediately noticeable, so I'm sure it's fine the way it is. I put back on the same point. It's a 2 spark plugs only GS (2003), not 4, so that option on the secondary plug being bad is not the case. I talked with a couple GS riders here that seams to know more then I (not that difficult :) ) and they both agree that I have something on the gas filter. That would be my first experience with gravel/dip gravel roads, but now the bike is very hard to control in first or second gear at low speed and two up, so I decided to cut short my vacation and I'm heading home tomorrow. Seams like it's getting a little worst because now I can fell the 'surge' again. I had it months ago when I bought the bike. Following some directions from this forum I thought I had it eliminated, but today it is back. At around 3K RPM, steady gas, the bike 'spurs' regularly. I want to believe that it's related with a bad gas filter... We had a really good time here in Mexico, but I'm kind of frustrated with this since I had a pretty good maintenance service before the trip (not right before, but at least 200 miles before the trip, so all was working fine) I was really expecting to get a real gravel roads experience here... :( Next time. BTW: I will move the filter to outside the first thing after get home. I want to tank you all here for your personal affords in helping me and I'm sure I could not get it because my inability to fix, not for your help. Thank you ALL!! :) |
Replace the filter .. it cannot be that difficult ... even if you can only get the cheap plastic ones for carbys that will do .. they are not rated for teh pressure but most of the time they will work. And then you can continue on your tirp.
Alternative filters ... Triumph use the same fuel filters on their injected bikes.. after that one form a EFI car would do .. as long as you can get the hoses to fit don't worry too much about the size of the filter.. but as an emergency fix the cheap plastic ones for carby cars would do .. buy one - check it fixes the problem then buy another two - just in case. |
1100gs fuel filter
Too bad about all this problem.Still , if it surges but otherwise runs sort of okay at 3000rpm + , can you maybe " ride around " the problem zone.
Sounds now like you had the same problem earlier after buying the bike used. . As for fitting an external fuel filter- good luck.It will take a lot of engineering, cutting, welding and pipefitting The filter on these bikes is inside the fuel tank with no external fuel lines . Instead of being a simple five minute roadside filter swap the job requires all kinds of extra plumbing and wiring to be removed, as well as starting with an empty tank if you do not have access to a clean drainpan to catch all the gasoline you may release when you remove the pump/filter access plate from the underside of the tank.And then you need to worry about not damaging the bits like the sealing o-ring. What were they thinking! Couldn't they have put a filter outside the tank under an inspection cover? |
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Fuel paths - 1) tank, pump, filter, injector, motor 2) tank, pump, filter, pressure regulator, tank The fuel filter has been mounted externally by several people .. ---- There are other possible causes of this problem - the TPS for instance. But most of the time it is the fuel filter .. and replacing it before the trip is a good step. Carrying a new spare is better. |
Feul lines
Er, my bad choice of words there Frank, not quite explicit enough . Yes there are two feul lines out to the injectors , but I don't think one wants to be cutting and splicing filters into those pressure sensitive units, but I may be wrong, I havent really seen any done so I don't know how that would go, would like to hear how it works..The usual approach to filtering was, I thought , to put a filter in the line between uptake point and fuel pumps and other such finely calibrated equipment to keep the crud out. On the gs this is all done inside the tank.
I was just venting a bit of frustration about how engineers and designers like hiding bits in locations which ,yes, are clever and out of the way but which turn the machine into a giant time consuming puzzle when it could be simple and straightforward.e.g. unclogging the filler drain tube which I have done. Not very practical for problems which may occur and need to be rectified at roadside with minimal tools. As another example, unrelated , my old R100 came with a neat single sided swingarm to make quick wheel removal a cinch. Then they hung on a muffler which trapped the wheel, so first the hot muffler has to be taken off.Grrrrrrrrr. Or another: the new 1200gs has centerstand placed so far aft that to remove the front wheel one needs a ton of ballast on the luggage rack ,or a set of blocks under the front axle or suspend it from overhead. Grrrrr. |
Fuel vapour lock?
I added an additional filter in line on my carburated f650 to stop crud in the fuel. I figured I could just replace it every now and again as required, or at worse take it off and chuck it away.
What I found was that after a few weeks, whenever it was really hot, my bike would suffer from fuel starvation. Opening the throttle seemed to clear it, then it would come back. Stopping for 20mins would also improve it for a little while, then it would come back. What I found was that a vapour lock was occurring in the in-line filter under hot conditions. The fuel was turning to vapour inside the filter body and stopping more fuel from arriving. Opening the throttle seemed to allow the vapour through, but as soon as I went back to cruise revs the vapour built up and caused the poor running. Solution was to re-route the fuel line and wrap the filter in foil to reflect away some of the heat. It worked for me, but I have a clear plastic filter body where I could lean over and see what was happening to the fuel. Hope this helps amigo, because it's a simple fix. |
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The filter is inside the tank as it is cleaner 'looking' and if the filter splits there is no safety issue. The fuel lines are the same inside or outside the tank .. well the inside ones have to withstand fuel on the outside as well as the inside .. but same diameter, pressure ratings ... ---- I am aware of the design defeciencies of some bikes .. I think it is done so they "look good" (sales) rather than "performance" (engineering). Stagbeetle - totaly different problem there. This EFI filter is partially blocked. proably by watery sludge. |
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I'm back home.
Had a good trip overall and I would do it again. The trip report will be on my web site hopeful this week. I will post here when it is there. So, the problem: it was water in the gas. I know now that I search and found that water is heavier the gasoline and it will go down on the tank. How do I'm so sure? exactly 240 miles after the problem shows up, it disappeared. and at 40MPG, that 6 gallons of bad gas I put in the bike would gime the 240 miles. On the way back, about 80 miles after I left Creel, the bike start riding fine again. At the beginning I thought that was the altitude (I was a bit down on altitude after Creel, then I thought was the gas 91 that I put after that make the difference. Then, taking chances, I filled up with 87 again just to be sure and nothing changed (I mean, the bike still good), so I come up with my water theory. Still I want to move the filter to outside of the tank, but dirty wasn't the problem. Thank you all for your ideas and I learn a lot from that. Next time you are there, do not use the gas from Yecore. :) I'm not sure if the 1100 is the same as the 1150, but moving the fuel filter to outside seams to be a very common and easy task to do. |
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------ Water in the Fuel? Well the fuel filter is paper on the EFI bikes .. and that will trap water by absorbing it inside the paper .. I'd be replacing the filter .. Buy 3 new ones .. one to put on, one to carry as a spare and one for luck. If the clamps are the throw away types (clamp by crimping) then buy the reusable ones - must not be the cheap types - they won't withstand 90PSI! The old K100/11000 bikes had reusable ones .. and they use the same size tubeing/filter.. |
watery gasoline
Glad to hear that the problem cleared up, that you suspect that it was water.
Hmmm, Yes it might have come from the gas you bought in Yecora, but then that doesn't mean that their gas is always contaminated.Mexican cars and bikes too will not be happy with water so the gas pump owner would be told soon enough about it by locals , to clean up his gas. It may have been water present in your tank which finally reached a level where the agitation of riding speed bumps with their peculiar pulsing finally churned it into reach of the pickup pipe. Beside changing filters you could carry a small bottle of methyl hydrate , the stuff is variously called gas line anti-freeze, carburetor cleaner, or injector cleaner.It is like in the USA available all over Mexico in the litttle display cases at PEMEX stations , auto parts stores, department stores. A form of alcohol , it will absorb the water and put it in suspension evenly through the gasoline so that it will then get run through the combustion chambers and clear the tank, usually with no noticeable effect on performance. |
Got the idea.
I will buy a new filter to replace. My uses the non-reusable crimps style, but I guess is a good idea to change to the reusable ones and I will check the idea of moving the filter to outside as well. I just not sure how the chemical's work on that the water will be trapped on my filter... it means that the filter will deteriorate and particuls probably will start flowing to the injectors? Thank you for all advice :) |
Normal Metholated sprits will help desolve water in gas (petrol) .. it should do no harm to either the filter or the injectors ..
However as your filter is playing games I'd replace it .. On the road .. if I knew there is water in the fuel .. I'd drain it (the water will settle towards the bottom) ... Then I put say 0.1 of a liter (quart) in the fuel tanlk just to clean out any water left behind. |
Trips was good - Trip report
Hi guys,
thank you for all your help on my my ride to Creel and Copper Canyon, Mexico. It is published at my web site. If you are interested, please visit Motorcycle trip to Creel, Cooper Canyon, Baja California, La paz http://viajareua.com/trips/creel/Pic0029.jpg |
Glad to hear your sorted, I love the website and all the pictures of the nice food.
Now gental readers go buy a Mr. Funnel and fill up by using that and you never have to worry about water and crud in your tank ever again, it's small cheap will last the lifetime of your bike. Mr. Funnel |
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I read the whole Mr. Funnel page. Looks like it's interesting, but couple questions: Is any one using it here? What model? (I assume that the F3 would be the way to go). Then, how you store it on your already full loaded bike? It seams quite big (9" x 5") and I could not think on a good place to store it. I don't want it inside my panniers with all the gas smell and dirty that it will collect, so I wonder were do you transport yours. Thank you :) |
Hi I have the smallest one as I like to fill up a small plastic gerry can first, then I fill up my stove and bike from that as in some countries they just give out fuel by the Litre with no fine control of the pumps, so I use the jarry can first that way I know I can take 5 litres each time and don't get fuel all over my bike. Also that way I make sure I dont get sludge and WATER yes it filters water out of the fuel.
Even in Europe you can get some water in the fuel due to condensation when the pumps are filled. I store it on top of my panniers on the outside, it's really small and has a little tag thing that you can actually tread string through so it ties to the bike. As for the crud and stuff it collects you just tap it out once you filled the bike. Easy and no fuel filter problems. |
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