Compact trip camera: size a major factor.
 

I have toyed with a few ideas regarding cameras over the last year.

I have a D-SLR, 2 SLRs, and a compact digital:a Canon Powershot 710 IS . Realistically, I would take both digitals on our next trip.

As a replacement for the compact, I recently thought about one of the new cameras with HD video capability, but I'd also value any input on simply physically small cameras: the "fit in the top pocket without making me look like like I have one D cup breast" type...

So: smaller the better, but musts include decent image quality, decent battery life, decent robustness. on top of that the wider the angle on the lens, the faster the lens, and the better the zoom, the better...
If it happens to have HD, fantastic!!

So suggestions?

Compact cameras
 

Hi Warthog,

We've been considering the same thing. I've already got a Nikon D40 SLR which is a great combination of size and performance, but we needed something that could fit in a top pocket, shoot high quality stills and even video (720p HD).

We settled on the Canon IXUS 120 IS. It's 12.1MP and according the marketing spiel is the most compact wide-angled (28mm) camera on the market. It has 4x optical zoom.

It takes great pictures, is really small, feels sturdy (it doesn't have the touch screen of others which on our trip would be just one more thing to go wrong) and importantly for us uses HDSC cards meaning it's interchangeable with the SLR.

Highly recommended.

I would check out the Panasonic LX3 and GF1, both great little cameras.

Can't find the LX3 in dpreview and the GF1 looks like it costs more than my bike!!

I have a Nikon Coolpix S6 FS at silly price if you are interested!

Hey Warthog:

The LX3 whilst awesome is a little short on the long end, being 24-60mm in 35mm equivalent focal length.

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX3 Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review

I still am thoroughly under the impression that the GF1 is the solution.
on your person with the 20mm lens and the other lenses close by, a one camera setup.

G

The answer to the LX3 shortcomings is the Panasonic Lumix TZ7.

I'm still getting to grips with the features but I'm really pleased so far. HD recording, wide angle with 12x zoom--25-300mm (35mm equivalent) zoom.

You would need a spare battery but you can now get compatible ones with the appropriate chip on eBay.

Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ7 Full Review, Digital Camera Reviews on CNET UK

Panasonic premieres ZS3 / TZ7 with AVCHD lite video: Digital Photography Review

Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ7 Review - Digital Camera Reviews - TrustedReviews

This is good to hear, as I need a camera smaller than my Nikon 35mm SLR. I had narrowed it down to the Panasonic detailed here or the Samsung wb550 see here Samsung WB550 Black

It was the battery price and longevity that put me off the Panasonic, as they could only be had from Panasonic and cost over £40. It is possible to change the cameras firmware back to the older version, these do not check the battery for the chip so allow you to use aftermarket batteries.

This is one I bought off eBay for £12.49 incl p&p. It has an upgraded decoding chip. It works fine and is in the camera at the moment.

Really fast delivery, it arrived the following day.

Odd I replied to this hours ago, but the reply has disappeared.

Thanks for the info. I may well go down this route as i believe the lense is a good one.

Compacts
 

If you want ultra compact and rugged ... think about getting a camera that does not have a pop out lens. The "power on lens out" types (i.e. most of them) dont seal against dust or moisture very well when the going gets tough.

A more closed set up like the Sony TX1, with a non moving zoom lens, sliding metal lens cover, and HD video is something to consider. Its also just 16mm thick (about 5/8 inch)

http://www.cameras.co.uk/assets/sony-dsc-tx1.jpg

Any thoughts on the Pentax W80?

Pentax Optio W80 digital camera specifications: Digital Photography Review

Size a major factor?
 

Warthog.

For someone who amongst everything else wanted to carry an axe through international borders/customs (another thread) to save buying an axe locally, I really do not understand a desire to save the amount of space offered by the very small variables of weight and size of compact digital cameras.

My best advice is to use what you have and already know how to operate.

But keep it in a waterproof container if venturing off roads into river crossings or bogs - I know:-((

Why assume that everything I buy is geared solely to that trip to Kamchatka?

That is not the case with the axe, and would not be the case with the camera. I ceratinly hope to visit other places in the mean time, locally or otherwise, Ural or Transalp: I won't need an axe for that...

I would like a small, top-pocket camera. My existing digicam is not particularly small, tough, wideangle, HD nor waterproof. In its favour it uses AA batteries, has a reasonable zoom and a view finder, but any digicam with the features mentioned above would it very attractive to any traveller on a bike...

Neither is it only to do with space...To carry it, I need a tank bag, or to keep it in the pannier. Neither is as convenient to use as a camera in one's breast pocket.

DSLR quality in a compact
 

Other threads have mentioned the increase in quality that comes from the much larger sensor in a DSLR. There is a big difference in quality however I like to travel light and wouldn't take a DSLR with me while travelling by bike.

I have just looked at the Canon S90 and Lumix LX3 which both have a larger sensor than most compacts, and shoot raw (but the sensor is still a long way short of a DSLR). The S90 seemed a bit flimsy to me. The LX3 felt a bit more robust but still has very small buttons for people with big fingers, or gloves. In the end I went for a Sigma DP1s which has a 28mm fixed lens and DSLR sized sensor in a very compact body. Not everyones cup of tea but I thought I would give it a go. Clifton cameras have them at a very good price at the moment and offered 7 days return if I wasn't happy with it. It should arrive tomorrow. Hopefully it matches up.

Iain

That's an amazing price for a camera that's £400 everywhere else. I too am looking at the canon S90. I like my images to be punchy straight out of the camera and the Canon provides this in Vivid, BUT, at £280 for a SLR size sensor compact it may be worth a punt, mmm... Nice find.

Sensor sizes are only important in relation to how many megabytes they are expected to handle. A smaller sensor will generally give good quality with less megabytes - and for the purpose of the picture (something that hasn't been mentioned, but more than likely to be web-based) will be more than good enough. Things to look for are battery life (AA's are preferable in compacts) and an ease and familiarity of handling. Just my thoughts.

Horses for courses. If you want to take a few holiday snaps then a cheap point-n-shoot is perfect. On the other hand, I enjoy photography and have pictures blown up to approx A2 size round my house. To make it worth doing enlargements of that size you need a quality camera. A normal point-n-shoot does not capture the level of detail necessary to enlarge that far, nor does it have enough manual control to capture the right image in the first place. DSLRs and a few top end compacts will also allow you to save the raw output from the light sensor rather than converting it to jpeg in the camera which gives more options for adjusting the picture later on. This saves getting home and finding that a really good shot has been ruined by an incorrect exposure.

The DP1s arrived today. I took it out in my pocket while walking the dog and took a few shots on the moors up the road. I found it very easy to control and it gave excellent pictures, easily as good as my pentax DSLR. Looks like I won't be needing the 7 day return.

Rossi, I'd be interested in hearing how you get on with the handling of this camera and the image results after you've used it for a bit as I'm considering one at that price. You don't happen to know how long that deal will last do you?

Correct me if I'm wrong as I may be completely off the mark here, but isn't it a fixed lens camera that uses software to boost picture size? And it seems you'd have to stay at one focal length to get the full benefit of the chip. Is that true? Don't mean to piss on anyone's fireworks.

It is a fixed lens camera so to get the full benefit you need to zoom with your feet. As you suggest, using digital zoom does reduce quality. The flip side of this is the greater quality gained from a fixed lens over a zoom. For most purposes a zoom is fine but a prime lens gives reduced distortion and chromatic abberation (normally seen as a purple fringe around high contrast areas).

As for software to boost image size, it is actually the opposite. Without wanting to get too techie, the bayer type sensor in all digital cameras (except sigma) has separate pixels for red, green and blue. An 8MP camera actually has 4M green, 2M red and 2M blue pixel sites. The camera then takes an average of 4 pixel values to give each full colour pixel. On the sigma foveon sensor each pixel site is able to record red, blue and green information so there is no need to take an average to work out a full colour pixel. There are 4.7MP on the chip but Sigma quote this as a 14MP camera as each pixel contains all 3 colours (3x4.7). In reality this is like comparing apples to oranges, however the image quality of the sigma is thought to be comparable with mid to top end DSLRs.

Camera choice, like choice of bike, is a compromise. My G650 Xchallenge is never going to be as easy to ride fast off road as a 450 enduro, nor is it as comfortable as a GS1200, but for me it ticks the right boxes. Similarly the sigma lacks a zoom lens, and some cameras (like the LX3 and S90) are able to focus faster and have faster lenses. For many people it may not be the most sensible choice but it does take amazing quality pictures. Each to their own.

Flying doctor,
I read several reviews of the camera and was concerned by reports of complicated menus, slow focussing and poor response. From 3 days use I would make the following comments:

Many of the reviews which made these complaints were based on the initial batch. Since then, firmware updates have improved the menus and they are very simple to use. I like the total absence of scene modes and the manual controls are very simple and effective.

There is no focus assist lamp so auto-focussing does suffer in poor light. However there is a manual focus dial which is very quick and simple to use. While not as easy to see what you are focussing on as an SLR, it is not really any harder than trying to work out exactly what other cameras are focussing on using an LCD screen. Using manual focus also gives instant shutter response. However, given the focal length, this is really a camera best suited to landscapes and they don't move very fast.

Write times to the card are a bit sluggish, especially when you compare the time for a normal camera to write a jpeg with the dp1 writing a much larger raw file. Jpegs can also be used and this speeds things up a lot. Speed is not the camera's strong point but it is not as bad as some reviews make you think.

The quality of the jpeg output is reported to be improved on the dp1s. The jpegs are not poor quality, it's just that the raw files can be made to look so much better. Also whereas most cameras give a high contrast, saturated image the sigma jpegs give more a natural output. This is not what most people are used to.

One major plus for me is the screen. It does catch reflections and is not very clear in bright light (like most lcd camera screens) but, being smaller than the S90 and LX3, it allows the buttons to be much bigger. I am confident I could use the camera with a pair of thin bike gloves. I couldn't say the same of either the S90 or the LX3 which have a plethora of minute buttons.


Some pics taken over the last couple of days can be found here.

Seems impressive, but not worth trading down to a fixed lens in my view - especially on this kind of camera.

Loved what you said about not wanting to get too techie :smartass:

Thanks for the info Rossi. Image quality is always an issue with me, especially as I'm used to the output of my 5D mkII. I've considered travelling with it and a 50mm lens in my tankbag but it's still a big bit of kit to haul around on a long camping trip. This camera may be a good alternative for my up and coming Scandinavia trip this summer as I'll be shooting mainly landscapes. It certainly won't be a constant worry as I'll be able to keep it in my pocket.

That's a nice part of the country you live in, one of my favourite areas. Thanks for showing the depth of field with the f4 lens. It's much more pronounced with the large sensor. Another plus for this camera over an S90. :thumbup1:

AA batteries are a consideration for me as well. I like knowing that I can find batteries anywhere in the world vs. a relying on specialized battery and charger that could be impossible to find in many countries.

I selected the Canon A1000 IS and was very happy with it. It fits neatly in a pocket and delivered some great shots ... heh, it took a winning shot for the 2010 HU photo contest, July 2010 in the calendar. :)

4x zoom is a little better than most cameras that size. I had a comparable Nikon CoolPix previously and definitely prefer the Canon.

Sigma also sell the DP2 which has the same body but a 41mm F2.8 lens if you prefer a more normal lens.

Depth of field does increase quite rapidly with the 28mm lens on the DP1 as distance increases. Hyperfocal distance comes down to 3m at F11 so you can get a whole landscape in pin-sharp focus by stopping down. Apart from reduced noise and greater detail, the other advantage of the bigger sensor is that the image is not softened by diffraction at smaller apertures like anything with a small sensor. (I won't even attempt to explain diffraction, that really would be techie:smartass:)

I have found a 12v charger for the camera battery on ebay for £6 so no problem charging it while on a trip. About the size of a fag packet so it isn't going to ad a lot of weight of bulk.

As much as I like it, I think I may have to loose the AA option. The likes of the Pentax Optio W80 ticks a lot of boxes, especially HD and wide-angle, but a few reviews I have read seem to be less that conplimentary about image quality. Perhaps it's only relative.

The vast majority of my pics are only on my PC, and of the 10gb of images our Argentina trip generated only 1000 images were really worth printing and they were only 6x4, so probably I'm worrying/pining for nothing!!

After all, a compact will not generate the images of a DSLR, unless you pay big money....

"I won't even attempt to explain diffraction, that really would be techie" - Rossi

Thanks. Like most photographers, I don't need to know. :thumbup1:

Rossi, I would prefer the DP2 with the 41mm if it was the same price but alas it's £483. Life is ok with a 28mm though, I've used cameras with a fixed 28mm for years previously and it's a perfect length for landscapes and documentary shots. I spoke to Clifton Cameras but they don't have either the DP1s or DP2 in stock. I was going to have a trip down there in the morning to have a look at one. No rush I'm sure they'll have some in soon. If not Bristol Cameras have them for £10 more. Thanks again for the heads up.
I read a report by someone who has both cameras and they say that the focus and write speeds are the same for both cameras, an improvement on the original DP1.

I'll need a 12v charger too, if I get one, so a link to the ebay seller would be appreciated.

Actually it's useful to know about even if you don't follow the physics behind it. Cut to the bold at the bottom for what you should remember.

As basic as I can make it, waves (including light waves) bend round corners and spread out in an arc. Light waves are normally affected by this only to a minute degree but if you pass light through a very small hole (like a small aperture) it can become noticeable. As the aperture gets smaller, and the waves spread out more, the picture will lose it's sharpness. This affect is amplified on cameras with small sensors as the image needs to be enlarged further. A typical compact sensor will start to show softening of the image around F5.6, a DSLR sensor around F11, depending on how big you are enlarging your pics

Large aperture = small depth of field but what is in focus is very sharp
Small aperture = greater depth of field but what is in focus is less sharp

Panasonic Lumix FT1

Very good quality, waterproof, dustproof and shockproof, nicely compact. I'm really pleased with mine and it stood up well to a rain, sand, a thorough battering and several bouts of clumsiness on my trip last year.

Here you go

I have posted a few more pics taken with the DP1, including some riding in Spain with Red Tread at the weekend (A Christmas and birthday present form my lovely wife :thumbup1: ). I have put them on Flickr rather than Photobox so you don't need to suffer the banner ads this time.

Well I 'upgraded' my cannon 6mp powershot (a610?) just before Christmas to a fujifilm j32 12mp (same as j37, just an Argos ‘exclusive’). I say ‘upgraded’ as the photo quality actually isn’t much better (Megapixels aren’t everything).
However the camera is a LOT smaller and lighter. The cannon, although it falls into the compact category is just too big and heavy to carry in a pocket, mostly due to the fact it uses AA’s- the main reason I bought it in the first place!!
The downside as already mentioned is that you loose a lot of manual control and the ability to record raw (the cannon doesn’t officially but with the addition of excellent chdk you can set theses little powershots free!).
Of course it’s not as good as a DSLR, but then I won’t be taking a DSLR most places either because of the weight or the value of the thing- it only cost me £80, so although by no means disposable, I’m not afraid to stick it in my pocket for a bike trip/night on the p1ss.
The exposures can be a little out (especially when in low light) but nothing that hasn’t been able to be sorted out very simply with the level and curve adjustments in photoshop (literally no more than a 2 minute job for a complete photoshop numpty like me!).
I’ll be off in a few weeks with just the compact..... and a holga :cool4:

Interesting Comments
 

Opinions about cameras are just that, opinions.

My choice for travel is the Canon G10. I like it so much I bought a second for a backup. It is compact, 14.7mp and records in raw format, which to me is extremely important. I use Adobe Lightroom to manage my photos both at home and on the road. I'm a control freak with my photography and this camera produces what look for.

After all the fuss and indecision about which camera to use (I shoot Nikon dslr gear), I settled on the G10 for my travel camera. If you take care and shoot on a solid support, be it a gorilla pod, bean bag, full size tripod or whatever you like and use a remote shutter release, it is possible to get stunning results.

Do your homework. List what your desired results and needs are, and then, and only then, choose which tool (camera) to use. You may surprise yourself and find a gem that will do everything you want and more.

Good luck, Dennis and always, YMMV

+1

Much better than the Canon Pwershot G9/G10... I had a G9, and found it VERY annoying that the "lens cap shutter thingy" actually scratched the front element of my lens when it was a bt cramped inside the tankpag. It's too close to the actual front lens. Very happy with the LX3 now, and would also consider a GF1.

I am also very happy with the LX3. Having said that, the LX5 is just around the corner, and it has even a tad more zoom. If the lens is as good as on the LX3, it could become a truely amazing camera.

If you're in the market for a more all-round type of camera (and slightly more budget too), I think this is a good read (and the reason why I posted in this thread just now):

'Compact Super Zoom' Camera Group Test (Q2 2010) Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review

Panasonic Lumix?
 

Hi guys,

Has anyone tried the Panasonic Lumix?

I too am looking for a reasonably-priced digital camera that fits snugly in a riding jacket pocket and takes high-quality pictures. There are adverts all over the TV here in Oz at the moment for the Lumix - it looks good...and unbreakable!! Has anyone tried and tested one??

Jeanie :mchappy:

You might be able to make both ends meet (DSLR & Point and shoot) with the Samsung NX 10

It has HD, interchangable lenses, it's very small as well. Personally if I had the choice I would gladly swap two cameras for one of these, it would give me much more room on my bike....

The Sony alpha NEX may be an option to try out.

Lots of great features/functions, interchangeable lenses, relatively compact, and not a great deal of $$.

Most of the reviews over at dpreview only have good things to say about the NEX.

You dont say which one?
I have a lumix tz7 and it is a really good camera. shoots near hd video, or less and has a 12x zoom at full 10mb resolution. If you switch to 5mb resolution the zoom is near 17:1.

Geez, that really does look amazing! If I was in the US right now I'd buy it for sure :S

Video / HD or not HD
 

In case someone's looking for HD video capability: be aware that most pocket cameras do NOT offer real HD quality, although they claim to do so.

Full HD would be 1920*1080 px!

Also: check out if the camera still lets you focus & zoom AFTER you press the "record" button. Most pocket cameras probably won't.

Sony HX5V
 

This ist the Best Compact Camera i ever had. I like it very much. And she make movies in HD 1920x1080 px.

Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX5 review: design, lens, GPS, movies | Cameralabs

This cam has a GPS reciever inside, and you always knows where the picture was made.

Steven

Husband bought a Panasonic Lumix FP3 yesterday and so far is very impressed. 14.1 megapixels, small, compact - fits easily into a top pocket, and the picture quality is superb. There is none of that lens retracting business either - less to go wrong and get stuck. :thumbup1: