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-   -   selling a bike in russia (how to do it correctly) (https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/northern-and-central-asia/selling-bike-russia-how-do-69694)

Zimi 2 Apr 2013 18:04

selling a bike in russia (how to do it correctly)
 
Hi, I am travelling this summer from Ulaan Bataar to Magadan. Want to sell my bike in Magadan or Vladivostok if possible.

Did anymore already sold his bike in Russia? Is it complicated? What should i be aware of. I want to come out clean, with the bike stamped out of my passport.

I will enter from Mongolia with an ATA Carnet. (THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE, THE SHIPPING COMPANY TOLD ME SO, BUT AS I ASKED THE OFFICE IN SWITZERLAND THEY TOLD ME THAT I CAN'T DO IT FOR A VEHICULE WITH NUMBER PLATE, AS WRITTEN BY CHRIS)

Thanks for your help, much appreciated.

klausmong1 2 Apr 2013 21:39

Sounds like trouble

You come in with a carnet, and leave the country with an opened carnet ?

I do not know how they handle that in russia, but i have done a lot of carnets for various reasons in different countries.

no one likes this way..
Except, when you know that you have to pay the fees for customs, this means, that you will lose your deposit or your bank guarantee

Warin 3 Apr 2013 00:21

Response posted in
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ling-ata-69693

Basically it can be done correctly - and have a closed off carnet. But YOU need to contact the country customs people before you sell ... and I'd do that in the planning stages. :funmeterno:

klausmong1 3 Apr 2013 05:58

The only way to do it without troble, when you close the carnet.

How ever that works in russia

Zimi 6 Apr 2013 15:44

thank you guys for your information. I will try to contact russian customs to know more about it.
I will continue the update information in the other post (in trip paperwork)

And I will contact the shipping company again about this, but the reason they use the ATA carnet for Mongolia is to avoid paying this 21% tax that you have almost no chance to get back even if you send the bike back from Mongolia.

Zimi 8 Apr 2013 12:23

If I decide not to do an ATA carnet and pay the import tax in Mongolia, would this make it easier to sell it in Russia?

klausmong1 8 Apr 2013 16:49

And how do you think that you bring it back to russia?

it will be in your papers again imported when you drive into russia again

same procedure again:oops2:

Maybe its easier in mongolia, you can try to talk to a customs officer with some pocket money:innocent:

Zimi 8 Apr 2013 17:00

kausmong1,

if I import it in Mongolia are you really sure that i need to do the same procedure in Russia?

when I travelled overland, I had my greencard and no country, neither Russia or any of the central asia made problems at the border.

For Mongolia I was explained that this import tax is only paid when the bike comes in a crate, and not through the border.

So I will enter Russia by the road, why would they ask me anything if I don't have any carnet?

chris 8 Apr 2013 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimi (Post 418111)
If I decide not to do an ATA carnet and pay the import tax in Mongolia, would this make it easier to sell it in Russia?

Quote:

Originally Posted by klausmong1 (Post 418135)
And how do you think that you bring it back to russia?

it will be in your papers again imported when you drive into russia again

same procedure again:oops2:

Maybe its easier in mongolia, you can try to talk to a customs officer with some pocket money:innocent:


It is illegal for a Russian to legally register your bike if the Russian import tax hasn't been paid.

I would think very seriously about not attempting to bribe a Mongolian border official.

If Mongolia import tax has been paid, there's nothing stopping you legally selling the bike in Mongolia.

Zimi:
We have communicated in the past ref the ATA Carnet. The London Chamber of Commerce says the following:

A carnet may not be used for:
  • goods to be sold or hired out abroad for financial gain
  • perishable or consumable items (as they would not normally be re-exported)
  • goods which are temporarily exported for processing or repair
  • goods on which a CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) refund will be claimed
  • goods used as a means of transport
  • the exportation of unaccompanied goods, or by post
  • foreign goods temporarily imported into the E.C.under a Customs Temporary Concession
  • equipment to be used for the construction, repair or maintenance of buildings or for earthmoving and like projects


In the past I looked into the ATA Carnet after talking to Andreas Koenig at paneuropa.de He told me what he's now telling you. I thought he was wrong, but I'll stand corrected if you get your bike into Mongolia on a Swiss ATA carnet. I'll also buy you a beer. Good luck!

Zimi 8 Apr 2013 17:07

Hi Chris, yes I remember our conversation.

So what would you do if you were at my place?

No carnet, pay the tax in Mongolia. Then travel to Russia, and if I sell it there, pay the tax, or otherwise drive back to Mongolia and sell it there or send it back home?

If I'm correct, you plan to send yours back home. How do you plan to get the import taxe from Mongolia back? Andreas told that it's very difficult and time consuming.

If I do it, I will think about not getting it back. If I do it will be a bonus, but I don't believe it. Especially if I don't come back to Mongolia.

The best would be to be able to get this back at the border when I exit Mongolia, but Andreas told me that it's impossible.

chris 8 Apr 2013 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimi (Post 418141)
Hi Chris, yes I remember our conversation.

So what would you do if you were at my place?

No carnet, pay the tax in Mongolia. Then travel to Russia, and if I sell it there, pay the tax, or otherwise drive back to Mongolia and sell it there or send it back home?

If I'm correct, you plan to send yours back home. How do you plan to get the import taxe from Mongolia back? Andreas told that it's very difficult and time consuming.

If I do it, I will think about not getting it back. If I do it will be a bonus, but I don't believe it. Especially if I don't come back to Mongolia.

The best would be to be able to get this back at the border when I exit Mongolia, but Andreas told me that it's impossible.

What I did when I was in your situation last year was to be lucky enough to join up with a group of Dutch bikers who sent 12 bikes in one container to Almaty. I entered Mongolia at a land border and did a temporary import.

The lady at Oasis in UB insisted I import my bike into Mongolia so she would get no stress from Customs while it's parked there. I wasted a day of my life at Customs head office near the train station in UB where only due to the superb skill of the Oasis secretary did we manage to pull this import stunt.

The bike is only imported for 1 year. Her wages were 40 $ and I we were able to convince them the the bike was worth only 600$ so I paid 120$ in tax.

I won't bother trying to get this 120 $ back.

My plan is to either ride from Magadan back to UB and and ship the bike back to Europe or ride Mag to Bishkek (but that's a bloody long way) and park it for a year there.

You could freight your bike by truck/ train to Moscow and ride it home from there. Or find someone to ride your bike back all the way. I read somewhere that somebody did a rider~swap in Magadan.

klausmong1 8 Apr 2013 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimi (Post 418137)
kausmong1,

if I import it in Mongolia are you really sure that i need to do the same procedure in Russia?

when I travelled overland, I had my greencard and no country, neither Russia or any of the central asia made problems at the border.

For Mongolia I was explained that this import tax is only paid when the bike comes in a crate, and not through the border.

So I will enter Russia by the road, why would they ask me anything if I don't have any carnet?

Will you REenter with or without your bike???

Because when you reenter with your bike, then you have it on your record again.
When you enter without your bike, then it is in Mongolia, so how will you be able to sell it in Russia?

klausmong1 8 Apr 2013 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimi (Post 418141)
Hi Chris, yes I remember our conversation.

So what would you do if you were at my place?

No carnet, pay the tax in Mongolia. Then travel to Russia, and if I sell it there, pay the tax, or otherwise drive back to Mongolia and sell it there or send it back home?

What i really dont understand:

You travel from russia to mongolia, then import your bike there, and pay tax for it, ok so far so good.

But then?
Import your bike back to russia?
Why ?
and How?
Its imported to mongolia, so when you want to bring it out of mongolia, what now??

A lot of questions.

And by the way, you do not need a carnet to go to russia and mongolia!!!!

Zimi 8 Apr 2013 22:26

Chris:
ok I understand now, of course if you paid so less, not even worth trying to get the money back. How difficult is it to estimate the value of the bike so low, do people from the custom in Mongolia know something about bikes?

If you import the bike to Mongolia, it is possible to go to Russia with it then? I don't really see that there is a problem with it, but better know now.

I dont want to put the bike in a train to Moscow, I don't have time for this. And I already rode from Switzerland all the way to Mongolia, it's long and boring, now I want to go diretly to the fun parts!!! ;-)
I will contact Sybille from the Oasis, she might help, you are right.

kalusmong1:

you didn't exactly understand my plan. I am only going to mongolia, because it's the cheapest way to send a bike from europe (germany). The shipping company is quite near from Switzerland.
My plan is to ride in Russia, the western BAM and the Road of Bones.
So yes, I will enter Russia, and go to Magadan. Sell the bike in Russia if I can, or go back to Mongolia to either sell it or ship it back.

I am thinking more and more about not making a ATA carnet, trying to declare a low value for the bike and pay the tax in Mongolia. Then I am cleared to sell it on my way back if I didn't sell it in Russia.

And I understand that if I want to sell it in Russia I have to clear the customs.
I have some russian friends, will try to get some help.

chris 8 Apr 2013 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimi (Post 418171)
Chris:
ok I understand now, of course if you paid so less, not even worth trying to get the money back. How difficult is it to estimate the value of the bike so low, do people from the custom in Mongolia know something about bikes?

If you import the bike to Mongolia, it is possible to go to Russia with it then? I don't really see that there is a problem with it, but better know now.

I dont want to put the bike in a train to Moscow, I don't have time for this. And I already rode from Switzerland all the way to Mongolia, it's long and boring, now I want to go diretly to the fun parts!!! ;-)
I will contact Sybille from the Oasis, she might help, you are right.

The bike chassis/engine is on 1988 papers. It also looks very bad cosmetically.

I don't see it's a problem either. The bike is on British papers (and has never been "exported" from Britain) and it was only "imported" to prevent it being "abandoned/sold illegally" in Mongolia without paying Mongolian taxes. I only bothered to "import" the bike to placate Sybille at Oasis.

Mongolian customs are very aware of many people in the past just entering their country and selling/abandoning their vehicle illegally. Also events like the Mongol Rally are of great interest for Mongolia customs. Last summer it took the Mongol Rally competitors at Tashanta/Tsaganuur about 36 hours each to clear customs because of all the paperwork that needed completing.

Warin 9 Apr 2013 05:32

Why not buy a bike in Mongolia? Ride around and then resell it there?

klausmong1 9 Apr 2013 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimi (Post 418171)
Chris:

If you import the bike to Mongolia, it is possible to go to Russia with it then? I don't really see that there is a problem with it, but better know now.

If you import it to mongolia, it is in mongolia, if you go to russia then, then you have imported it into russia ( it is in your papers when you enter the country )
So it does not help to import it to mongolia, because you have to bring it out from russia again.


I dont want to put the bike in a train to Moscow, I don't have time for this. And I already rode from Switzerland all the way to Mongolia, it's long and boring, now I want to go diretly to the fun parts!!! ;-)
I will contact Sybille from the Oasis, she might help, you are right.

Well, i would not say it is boring, I am also driving all the way to mongolia, but thats another thing.
How do you think she can help you selling the bike in russia?
She can maybe help you import your bike in mongolia, but again, same problem
If you say, you have no time there, then you want to wast your time trying to get your bike cleared by customs and sold it there?
By the time you use for that you might be back with your own bike by drivin
g

kalusmong1:

you didn't exactly understand my plan. I am only going to mongolia, because it's the cheapest way to send a bike from europe (germany). The shipping company is quite near from Switzerland.
My plan is to ride in Russia, the western BAM and the Road of Bones.
So yes, I will enter Russia, and go to Magadan. Sell the bike in Russia if I can, or go back to Mongolia to either sell it or ship it back.

I am thinking more and more about not making a ATA carnet, trying to declare a low value for the bike and pay the tax in Mongolia. Then I am cleared to sell it on my way back if I didn't sell it in Russia.

I understood completely
You go to mongolia, and then to russia.
And you want to sell the bike there.
And for some funny reason you think you import it to mongolia and then go into russia with it.
It seems tome, that you don't understand the problem and don't want to hear what people tell you,
In this case it is up to you to make your own experience.
have fun with that.


And I understand that if I want to sell it in Russia I have to clear the customs.
I have some russian friends, will try to get some help.

Just my opinion about your problem in red....

Zimi 9 Apr 2013 07:43

klausmong,

sorry but on one hand you tell me it's not possibe to go from Mongolia to Russia with my bike if I import it in Mongolia, and Chris says it's possible.

I still have my swiss number plate and the bike is registrered in Switzerland. It will not be exported from Switzerland. Like Chris said, it's imported just to be cleared wih Mongolian customs.

in 2011, I entered and exit russia 4 times at 3 different borders, I never had any problem, only showed the paper of my bike and my passport. Why could it not do the same this time?

As long as I don't sell the bike in Russia I won't have any problems with the customs I think.

I know that if I sell the bike in Russia, I need to clear the custom and pay the import tax. I understand this. But I don't need to pay the import tax if I am just traveling in Russia and exiting again in Mongolia.

klausmong1 9 Apr 2013 12:39

Now your bike is imported to switzerland
Then you import it to mongolia.
And you want to sell your imported bike ( in mongolia then ) in russia.

Why not import it to russia?

If you import it to mongolia and to sell it in russia, it makes no difference , you can also import it to China, or maybe Romania.

Wherever you import your bike, it is still nor cleared by russian customs.
and when you travel into russia with an mongolian bike, you still need to clear it, what is the difference if you import it from Mongolia or Switzerland?

I think, it takes you more time to clear it by customs and sell it then, than it takes to ride back.....

Zimi 9 Apr 2014 19:20

As I had to cancel the whole trip at the last moment for business reason last year, I am going this year.

I have an update about our conversations.

In Switzerland, it's impossible to make an ATA Carnet with a vehicule that has a numberplate. I could only make ATA Carnet with a vehicule without numberplate, and then it would be impossible to enter Russia, because I wouldn't have an insurance.

klausmong1 9 Apr 2014 22:58

Just for me to understand:

Why do you need an ATA Carnet for Russia and Mongolia?

Zimi 10 Apr 2014 07:29

Hi! It's the company Pan Europa that ships the bike from Germany that recommend using ATA Carnet. It seams to work for Germany, as many did it this way.
The advantage of making an ATA Carnet for Mongolia, is that you don't need to pay the import tax in the country. If your bike is shipped to Mongolia, without a carnet, you HAVE to pay the import taxes. It's not the same as if you come in the country by crossing the border yourself.
We had already a big discussion about it last year, it didn't change.

I will update the thread with my experience this summer

motoreiter 10 Apr 2014 08:44

have you looked at having it shipped to russia instead? you could ship it to Ulan Ude and ride to Ulan Baator in a day. sure, you'd be backtracking a little but it might be easier from a paperwork perspective?

Zimi 10 Apr 2014 09:11

Yes! I was supposed to ship to Vladivostok with the english guys doind the eastern BAM this year, it was easier and cheaper until the crisis Crimea.. Now they had to change the plans, which include bringing the bikes to Peterburg, and sending by train. I don't have the time for this.

klausmong1 10 Apr 2014 14:26

The guy who drove with me to Ulaanbaatar had his BMW shipped in August 2013 to Austria.
It arrived in February 2014!!!!!!

( I drove back, so I was faster anyway:rofl:)

I did not think that you ship your bike to UB when you want to do a Bike travel tour:innocent:

I think it is funny, that you don't get a carnet for your bike.
Never heard of that.

I think I will read a blog of a person I know, some swiss guy, who traveled to India with a carnet....

chris 10 Apr 2014 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimi (Post 461479)
Hi! It's the company Pan Europa that ships the bike from Germany that recommend using ATA Carnet. It seams to work for Germany, as many did it this way.
The advantage of making an ATA Carnet for Mongolia, is that you don't need to pay the import tax in the country. If your bike is shipped to Mongolia, without a carnet, you HAVE to pay the import taxes. It's not the same as if you come in the country by crossing the border yourself.
We had already a big discussion about it last year, it didn't change.

I will update the thread with my experience this summer


I have to contradict this information. Pan Europa and more specifically their Mongolian customs agent know jack sh!t about anything. There were 2 German bikers who freighted their bikes in 2013 to Mongolia from Berlin at the Oasis Guest House with a different German shipper. No Ata carnet, no cdp, no import tax, just the same TIP you do at a land border.

I am currently using Pan Europa to ship my bike from Mongolia to Europe. The container is FIVE MONTHS LATE from the timings I was told would apply. I still don't have my bike and cannot recommend PE to anyone.

Zimi 27 Aug 2014 22:31

So I finally did it. Shipped the bike to Mongolia with Pan Europa. As I was leaving for Russia, I didn't have to pay the import tax in Mongolia, only 60$ fees.
No problem getting out of Mongolia and into Russia.

If anybody is interested to have more information, I made a summary here:

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/fro...golia-may-2014

chris 27 Aug 2014 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimi (Post 477783)
So I finally did it. Shipped the bike to Mongolia with Pan Europa. As I was leaving for Russia, I didn't have to pay the import tax in Mongolia, only 60$ fees.
No problem getting out of Mongolia and into Russia.

If anybody is interested to have more information, I made a summary here:

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/fro...golia-may-2014

Both on my desktop pc (Win7 and Firefox) and my phone (Android and Chrome) I get an "access denied" message, despite being logged on, when I click on the link. Does anyone else have the same issue?

Or maybe PE doesn't want me to see this info? :-)

Zimi 28 Aug 2014 19:50

Hi, it should work, I tried again:

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/fro...golia-may-2014

On my computer I can see it.

chris 28 Aug 2014 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimi (Post 477870)
Hi, it should work, I tried again:

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/fro...golia-may-2014

On my computer I can see it.

Nope. Still doesn't work for me. I've searched the whole site and nothing.

Upon searching the "shipping section" (not part of the HUBB, but on the main HU site) I get some summary numbers

Paid at start: 1200
Paid at destination: 60
Recommended: Yes
Shipment date: Apr 2014
Shipment method: Truck
Distance from searched start point: 0km
Distance of shipment: 6675km

When I click the "more" button, I again get the access denied message.

I'm going to report this to Grant and see if he can get to the bottom of the situation. Having a section that people can't access seems pointless. Visitors won't bother visiting it and why would anyone bother adding information there.

Zimi, maybe you can post your PE/Tamm/UB experiences here on the HUBB too? I'm sure you'd be happy for more people to read of your positive shipping experiences. Hopefully it's just a quick copy/paste.

Well done on getting to Magadan. Your pictures on Facebook brought back some great memories! Are you doing a full Ride Report anywhere?

Greetings to the mighty Uwe too!

Zimi 28 Aug 2014 21:57

Hi Chris, very strange, I don't know why it works for me, Anyway, I will copy/past it here. Thanks for following us! I guess I don't have time to write a report, too much work. I have a lot of videos and will try to make a small movie... But time is my biggest enemy...

Cheers:


Dear all, here is my experience with the company Pan Europa that offers shipping from Tamm (Germany) to Ulan Bator (Mongolia).

Before the shipping:

Since 2013, I had a lot of email exchange with Mister König and always got quick replies.

There are different ways of shipping your bike. Usually you ship you bike with an ATA Carnet when you plan to ship your bike back home. This is the easiest solution. The custom work in Mongolia is done in 2-3 hours and it's cheap.

If you plan to sell you bike in Mongolia, or to leave it there for a longer period you need to pay the import tax. There are 2 different ways to import a vehicle:

- The temporary import of 1 year (tax is about 15.5%)
- The definitive import if the bike will stay in Mongolia (tax is about 25%)

Pan Europa usually only deal with people using ATA Carnet, as it seems the first choice in Germany for shipping the bike. So about the import, they couldn't really inform me on how it will be done once I get there.

Being a Swiss citizen, I can't send my motorbike with an ATA Carnet. In our country, the ATA Carnet can only be used for vehicles without number plate (race cars and motorbikes for example). So for me the only option was the temporary import.

Initially I planned to send a lot of stuff in the box with my bike, but Pan Europa advise me to send as little as possible. Every single part must be listed and if you remove the front wheel and the mirrors, they need to be on separate position in the list. For each position in the list there is a fee to pay. Needless to say, if you need to list every part or your tool box, it's gonna be much cheaper to take it in the plane. I heard as well from another custom that arrived in Mongolia one week before me, that there is an special import tax if you send oil with your bike. So better but it there, and it will be cheaper there.

I build the box to send my bike myself, because Pan Europa already rented all their motorcycle transport boxes. The transport costs from Tamm in Germany to Ulan Bator in Mongolia was 903 euro which I think is quite cheap for such a long distance.

As soon as the transport was in Russia, I received a daily update per email on where my bike was and how many days left until Ulan Bator. The transport arrived on time. I don't remember exactly but I think it took less than 30 days.


Finding Monex / Dealing with the paperworks in Mongolia:


Once I landed in Ulan Bator, the biggest difficulty was to find the Monex Office. There is no address and nobody knows where it is. I got help from Urnaa, one of the person working at the Intergam Oasis Guesthouse. She offen deals with bikers sending their motorcycle back home, she can arrange wodden crates for shipping, but in my case she was no sure. She never had this case so fare, somebody shipping the bike in Mongolia, going to Russia and not coming back with the bike.

There is actually 2 Monex Offices in 2 different places. They open at 9am. I hade phone contact with Gonnie who organized the paperworks for 2 bikers 1 week before. The German guy sent his bike with an ATA Carnet and it took less than an hour, and the Swiss guy, like me sent it without the ATA Carnet. It took him 3 days and he had to pay the import tax.

Gonnie told me to go to the port. It took us 1.5 hour to find the place. I saved the GPS coordinates, so make sure to put them in your GPS before your trip.
They made copies of my passport and motorcycle papers and told me to leave and wait for their call.

The next Morning around 11am I got a call from Gonnie, that the paperworks were ready and I could get my bike. Because I was exiting Mongolia the next few days and not coming back, he issued a special paper saying that I don't need to pay the import tax. I only had to pay 60 dollars fees for the paperwork.

I showed up again at the Monex Cargo and the opened the crate for me, gave me the papers, I paid the 60 dollars and it was over. It took me 2 days to get my bike. 2 Days later I was in Russia. Nobody asked me anything at the border, didn't even had to show the papers I got from Monex.

Advices:

If you plan to ship your Motorcycle to Mongolia, you need to count 2 or 3 days to get your bike through customs. So try not to arrive later than wednesday it possible, in order to avoid having to wait the whole weekend if for any reason it takes longer than 2 days.

Monex in Ulan Bator:

GPS coordinates of Monex Cargo: N 47°54.486' E 106°52.798'
Put these coordinates in your GPS as nobody knows where it is. This is the only place you need to go, first to give your papers and then to get your bike.

Gonnie (Gonnie is in another office, but he speaks english and will tell you what to do. You don't need to go to his office)
phone: +976 99 11 01 95
email: gonnie@monex.mn
website: www.monex.mn

Oasis Guesthouse:
OASIS CAFE & GUESTHOUSE - Home
Urnaa

Grant Johnson 28 Aug 2014 22:56

Sorted - what happened is he made the post to the Shipping section, then later edited it - and when a post is edited or created there it needs to be approved, and I hadn't got to it yet.

It should be fine now.


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