It seems very difficult to have a rational discussion / argument here (with point and counterpoint), either due to personal bias or misunderstanding the discussion.

For clarity, I am trying to make a case that there is no evidence (so far) that it would be dangerous for citizens of NATO countries to visit Russia since the latest Russian offensive. So the (open) questions I asked at the end of my previous point were genuine, seeing if we have any evidence for harrasment.

Your points are mostly tangential.

Yes--so far. Not everybody wants to become famous as the first example. If you want to take that chance, by all means ride ride ride. If you can think of other places you have wanted to visit, why not go there?

Let's not force the hand of a Moderator here.

I think all replies have been excellent. I was asking for OPINIONS, not hard facts. But all replies are welcome.

This is a forum. Where ideas, facts and opinions are shared. Surely that's the whole point ? If people want hard facts and binary information, they can find that easily elsewhere. From official Government websites and historical archives.

Forums (not necessarily this one) can easily be ruined by moderators thinking that they need to censor opinions. And you can't always blame them when replies start edging towards rhetoric and hyperbole. It's often just easier to delete entire posts than to try and decipher it's intended content.

And then we all lose out.

Good points, Ted.

I'll add that as a moderator I cannot delete part of a post while leaving the rest--doing so in the past has led to varying degrees of trouble. This means that anyone wishing to offer constructive information and/or opinions about a topic should refrain from mixing it with the kind of offensive or inflammatory remarks which are not allowed here (as defined in the terms we all agreed to when signing on as members).

In practical terms, it won't matter how hard I work at composing a post offering my wisdom (as I like to conceive it) to the rest of you if I include inflammatory political commentary or gratuitous insults directed at other members. Moderators will then be faced with a stark choice--let my post stand, or delete in its entirety. Having decided to delete, this often means deleting responses by anyone who rises to the bait, especially if they quote the offending post in their response. A fair bit of valuable content is lost this way, and a lot of offense is taken.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I've been as guilty as anyone of crossing the line. As a result, I've had posts deleted and been privately chastised by other moderators and by Grant. It's a learning process for us all--and we're all, as far as is known, human.

There is a lot of good information in this thread, and perspectives on a topic which interests us all, i.e., the intersection of our forms of travel with world geopolitics. Let's keep it going on that basis.

Hope that's helpful.

Mark

Opinions based on not a shred of evidence?! Just disengage from reality and utter forth what comes into your mind at that particular moment in time?

I believe God will send angels to comfort Vladimir and nibble the soft bits on the end of his ears, and he will shout (the equivalent of, in Russian) "this is fantastic" and immediately stop and reverse the invasion of Ukraine. (Theme borrowed from Monty Python, except in the sketch it was Victor and not Vladimir and Ukraine wasn't mentioned...)

Government websites for facts: Following the 2014 Batalan theatre attrocity and connected events, the US State Department **for multiple years** advised against all but essentially travel to Paris and France. How many US tourists or anyone else heeded that "advice"?

Historical archives: They show strong parallels between Mr Putin's behaviour and that of a German fella with a dubious 'tash who was i/c Germany in the 1930's and early to mid 40s.

Why should a moderator step in here? There are a variety of differing views (some based on actual experience and knowledge, and other on unsubstantiated emotion, and everything in-between), but no-one is getting personally insulting or rude, like what would have surely happened on social media, where algorithms (on Facebook for example) are programmed to promote "fights/confrontation/argument" and not prevent "special interest groups" from (negatively) influencing the discourse (Cambridge Analytica, for example).

For what's it worth, I've been listening to Russian radio over the internet the last few days. The station (located in Moscow) has been having listeners call in to say if they have any loved ones in Ukraine, etc. Many people called in, many with either relatives in Ukraine or serving in the Russian army in Ukraine. Many of the callers were near tears...people are NOT happy about this war. The words "criminal," "irrational," and "unjustified" came up a lot.

If you go to Russia in the near future I think you're more likely to have locals apologize to you for their country's shameful conduct than harass you.

I have no knowledge the add to this debate, but thanks for sharing this. Helpful (and hopeful) to know.

I have never been to Russia. Although I have met quite a lot of Russians in far reaches of the globe. However, I have never met a Russian in the U.K where I live. Weird! I have always found them to be polite, funny and intelligent.

I have no fear of Russian people. Nor have I ever had fear of local people anywhere in the world. It's only the politicians and those commanded by them that I have ever been wary of.

Luckily I am not hearing any anti-Russian sentiment anywhere. Just anti-Putin. Everyone knows that the Russian people are already suffering under a dictatorship.

Going back to the original point of the thread, as the days go on and sanctions get harder it seems that Russia is becoming even more of a Pariah state. Cut off and disconnected from the world. As long as Putin is in command and also as an autocratic regime, it will only be a revolution or assassination that can remove him.

And then what ? History has taught us that whenever a dictator is removed, anarchy ensues. Power struggles, terrorism etc. It would surely get worse before It got better.

Like Chris correctly states, Russia has always worked on reciprocity when it comes to Visas. Considering the west is cutting Russia off on every front, I personally believe that it will be a long time before British, US and EU tourists are being issued Visas by the Kremlin. But Business Visas could be different ? It's the multiple entry business visa that most Overlanders need to cross East I believe.

I really do hope I'm wrong. For everyone's sake.

At the moment I would no more dream of going to Moscow on business than Pyongyang. For one you can't get paid. You also have PR problems in markets massively larger than Russia (their Economy is the size of Spain). You won't get travel insurance unless part of a diplomatic mission of some sort and corporate lawyers don't like that risk.

You feel for the ordinary people but there is no other way yet thought of to sort out nutters like Putin. I certainly aren't putting any priority on my holiday plans having to change.

How long this lasts for is totally unknown but to me is likely to be years. If Putin decides to completely U-turn and leave office tomorrow everyone will just think its a ploy, so even an unimaginably positive outcome still results in controls in place for months/years. Endless Cold War with Putin in power or a nasty internal struggle to get rid seems more likely. That or he pushes the button.

Andy

https://assets.publishing.service.go..._Ed1__WEB_.jpg

UK Foreign Offiice now advises against all travel to Russia quoting "the lack of available flight options to return to the UK, and the increased volatility in the Russian economy."

I don't pay any attention to FCO travel advice, but that is a lot of red! :D

You may not. But your travel insurance company certainly does.

I personally know two people who have had to be rescued from Russia after accidents with broken bones. One of them nearly bankrupted the insurance company.doh

LOL, and yet somehow they managed to leave off Belarus and Ukraine... :oops2:

I think the colouring in is just to show all those untalented at geography, where Russia actually is. It must have taken several UK civil servants many hours of intense crayoning :innocent:

An aside: why would anyone want to fly back to today's UK? (I've a UK passport, but live elsewhere...). I flew back in January this year after a couple of years outside those islands and the only thing I missed when I left again were friends and proper beer. (Sorry, this second paragraph is :offtopic: )

Yes, after that imbecile Liz Truss had spent a good hour colouring in Brazil