First to attempt the entire BAM?
 

MOVED FROM ANOTHER THREAD TO BE HERE AS IT'S OWN TOPIC -

Not mechanic, workshop - to apply a better tool than rocks, several weeks later!

Clearly what we did worked as it survived the rest of the BAM - something never ridden by motorbike, before or since!

To us, space/weight/expediancy seemed a better priority than bogging ourselves with everything possible for every possible eventuality.
I recall Ewan and Thingy had a full Snap-on-Tools kit given to them along with everything else they wanted - including a retenue of support vehicles to carry everything plus a team of expert fixers. Remember the full set of saucepans they eventually abandoned?
Despite all their 'top of the range' sponsors and freebies, they failed one of the simpler sections of SibirskyExtreme and got into one of the pre-arranged team of 6WD trucks that were carefully kept out of picture. Shhh...
Our motives were personal satisfaction. Exactly as Mondo Eunduro years earlier who, despite far more humble but better equipped and prepared bikes, was the original inspiration of the duo (who regularly telephoned them for advice while en-route - Shhh..) whose aim seemed more for TV fame and commercial success.

Give them their due - they increased awareness of what we all do, or want to give the appearance of doing.

I digress.


My view too!
Cheers:thumbup1:

Several people did this in the 90s and maybe earlier.
Why do you think you are "the first"? How is that possible to know?

Sorry - O/T
 

The western half as far as Tynda, yes - but no further.

No one has attempted the entire road from the Pacific to Taishet by moto, as far as can be ascertained from extensive research.

From Colebatch's initial post on his ADV thread:-
"There are only a few people who had ridden the western half, between Bratsk and Tynda. Only one pair of guys (Poles of course) had ridden the eastern part (from Vanino to Fevralsk).
Never before our journey, had someone seriously attempted to ride the whole road."

Any information on any other attempt would be helpful.
Either here, PM or the ADV thread.

:offtopic::offtopic::offtopic:


Can you please explain this research. After Glasnost Russia opened up and quite a few riders went to Russia early in the 90s and tourists have traveled with motorbikes in Russia for more then 20 years. As far as I know there is no written records of where people traveled so I can't understand how you can claim to be "the first" based on "extensive research".

On the other hand I wish you had a nice trip and this discussion has come to an end from my side.

From Vanino to Bratsk? Ok, who? Name them. If you claim to know "several people" who have done it, I would like to meet them. Or at least one of them.

We strongly suspected we were the first to attempt the whole road. It was confirmed when we started to reach the remote villages on the eastern half of the road. Villages where people have grown up and lived their entire lives. Villages several days ride from the next village. Places where any traveller through the region would need to stop, and need to replenish fuel and supplies. Talking to people in those villages all gave us consistent answers when we asked about foreigners who had been in those towns. 2 polish motorbikers in 2008 and an australian on a bicycle a few years before that. We knew about the Poles. And we knew they got as far as Isa from Vanino, about a quarter of the full BAM road. After Etyrken, the reports of the Australian on the bicycle died out - assume he jumped on a train.

Every village we passed thru we stopped and asked about foreign travellers and received consistent information each time. Prior to Etyrken, the only foreigners anyone had seen on the road were the Australian and the two Poles.

Since the Poles (Movistar and Izi) were guys I had contact with, and I knew they had only attempted the eastern part of the BAM road, and successfully completed about half of that, and since no-one, in any shop, or any fuelling station or anywhere that foreigners would have to visit, had any recollection of any other foreign motorcyclists on that road ....

Any serious attempt on the BAM road would be able to do what the Poles and we did ... get as far as Etyrken and Isa ... Yet in these towns everyone was singing from the same book. They all said the only foreign motorcycles they had ever seen passing thru were the poles and ours.

I spoke to a lot of people about it in every town. I always took the chance to ask anyone in a shop or petrol station , or a police officer or local business owner, ... because I too wanted to know. Has anyone been here before. Has anyone done this before. If yes, I am dying to know what it was like for them. Because it was damn tough for us.

So unless you think all the people I asked en-route had selective memory loss (mysteriously co-ordinated selective memory loss at that), and in the absence of you or anyone else coming up with more than hollow disparaging words (they seem to be the only words you know) and introducing me to someone I can share a beer with and discuss what it was like motorcycling the western half and the eastern half of the BAM road while sharing fotos of it, then I think I will stick with my wording thanks.

Seriously ... if you KNOW someone who has attempted the whole road before, then let me know. I want to have a beer with them (and I will change my wording to "No-one has seriously attempted to ride the full BAM road in the last 15 years, since it deteriorated")

I have gotten answer on my question.

A few years after two Norwegian guys tried to ride along the world following the polar-circle (1991/2?) there was an article about BAM in an English or German magazine. This must have been around the same time when Helge P and some other Norwegians planned an extensive trip to Russia - maybe he read the article. As I mentioned earlier a lot of people went to Russia after it opened up.
It looks like "something never ridden by motorbike" is reduced to " had any recollection of any other foreign motorcyclists on that road ...."

When I drove lake Chad-route I was told by numerous locals, including the people at border and villages, that I was the first biker that drove the entire route. Off course this was bullshit.

Anyway, hopefully it was a nice trip and personally I don't care who was the first (or fastest or whatever).

I think that if someone says they are the first to do anything they should be able to prove it, that's all. If that's "hollow disparaging words" I'm sorry to have bothered you.

Hi Alibaba

IMHO when somebody (you) claims that somebody else (Walter and Tony) wasn't the first to do something they (you) should be able to give the names of at least one person who went before them. In your reply you mention some random Norwegians who might have written something in a magazine somewhere and Helge Pedersen who was planning a trip to that area. Did Helge ride the full BAM?

If I were travelling down a road and had spoken (I know that Walter and Tony have a very good grasp of the Russian language) to people who hadn't seen a western bike before and had lived there all their lives, then without evidence to the contrary, I would be able to make the claim to be the first.

cheers
Chris

I dragged out my copy of 10 on 2, and his 1996 trip covered in the book did not cover the full BAM. Looks like just Tynda to Ust-Kut.

From Colebatch's BAM thread on ADV a year ago -
"The only other foreigners that I KNOW have ridden the western part of the BAM Road (Bratsk - Tynda) are Helge Pedersen back in about 1995 and Eric & Gail Haws back in 1991 when it was still the Soviet Union (I have invited those guys to join the facebook group). Certainly the road then would have had 15-20 years less deterioration than it has now."

The western part!

What about the eastern part? Only the 2 Poles, Robert.
But I want to hear of others and meet them to share experiences and recollections.

I suppose anyone riding the M56 north/south through Tynda to Yakuysk can claim to have ridden the BAM road - simply because they went across it at right angles!
But can they claim that to be a serious attempt to ride the entire 4,300km from end to end?
Alibaba seems to think so.

Colebatch will no doubt respond to him.

Well, I don't agree. I mean that if someone claims to be the first (or fastest or whatever) they have to prove it. I think Guinness book of records share my view.


The two other Norwegians wrote some articles and published a video but I don't think anyone of them rode the full BAM, and I never said they did.
I mentioned Helge and the two other guys to show that quite a few people went to Russia when it opened up.
This is 20 years ago, before Internet. The only reference I can find right now is that the two Norwegian guys crossed west Siberia in 1992 and east in 1995. Helges trip was about a year later.

The article about BAM was not written by Norwegians but I think it must have been between 1992-1995.

I believe you would do so and the same obviously goes for Colebatch and Tony P (and maybe most people). Now I know what they mean with "first" and I don't have any problems with that.

I commented this:

Not this:

Huh? How can you prove that something has not happened?

I mean, I guess it is possible that someone at some point rode the BAM, swore everyone he met en route to eternal secrecy, and then never told anyone that he did it, but I'm not sure how you could prove it!

And who knows, maybe some crazy Russian biker/engineer rode the BAM back when it was first built, but I doubt we'll ever know at this point.

THE BAM.
All of it.
4,300 Kilometres from Vanino, on the Pacifc Ocean to Bratsk & Taishet.
Not parts of it.
Not very short sections of it.
Not even just the 5 metres crossing it in Tynda, which probably hundreds of bikes have crossed!
All of it.

But I thought you were commenting on us not being the first doing what we did.

No-one has ridden all of what we did.

We warmly welcome hearing otherwise so we can share experiences, recollections and photos with them. And some beers!

That was exactly my point, so how can you tell if you are the first? You simply don't know. doh

Edit: I completely agreed with the quote from Colebatch ("The only other foreigners that I KNOW...."

So NASA can't say Neil Armstrong was the first man to walk on the moon - they "simply don't know" if someone did it earlier!

Not only would I, I have already have 2 firsts:
Quote
“ The FIRST tripled-balled slaphead to drive with a Malawian Togolosh to the end of the World on 2 different bikes twice within 12 months. So there!!!!”

From http://www.thebrightstuff.com/ch27.htm

And

“The first man to ride an airhead into the ground... literally”

From http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539228&page=2

:innocent:, Sorry off topic :(

So what you are saying is that no one can ever claim to be the first to do anything? Because they cannot prove that no one else has done it? Please explain how someone could prove that no one has ridden the BAM before? Are you suggesting that we might find decades of newspaper archives from the area with headlines such as: "NO ONE RIDES THROUGH HERE ON A MOTORCYCLE--AGAIN!".

Frankly I find your position rather odd.

gentlemen,
can i say a word?

as i worked for the only soviet motorcycling magazine and the editor of the travelling department of the mag who by some coincidence was the head of Soviet and then Russian Committee for motorcycle travelling worked at the desk in the next room
i believe the information on any foreign mototravellers between year 1991-2002 was available to me.
there was no story about riding BAM road
it should be clear for any one - it was a road of no significance leading nowhere. what's more - no foreign person could be let go along strategic railroad in that times. not possible. it was a forbidden route.

the main road was ( and is) THE FEDERAL HIGHWAY which was fully surfaced with tarmac only a year ago.
in soviet era it was the same hell as road to magadan now and the goal of any traveller was to do it.

if some still need some proof from history please contact Mr. Ivan Ksenofontov ksenofontov@zr.ru who is the very editor.

Very interesting, do you have any information about the attempt of driving around the polar circle in 1992?

Gentlemen

Clearly the claim to be the first stands until proven otherwise.

This is a common scientific procedure and the research works leading up to this claim does appears to have significant weight.

So until proven otherwise, colebatch and crew have the rights to this claim.

Just my 2c

kim

......

With all due respect, thats a ridiculous thing to say.

Neil Armstrong cannot prove there was no-one before him on the moon. He cant prove that an ethiopian empereor smoking weed didnt arrive there 40 years before him on a flying carpet.

No one can prove that someone hasnt run faster than 9 seconds for the 100 metres. Maybe someone has and it wasnt timed. Do you honestly think Usain Bolt has to prove to Guinness that its not possible for anyone to have done it faster than his 9.58 seconds?

How could Roald Amundsen prove that no-one had been to the South Pole before him? He couldn't, of course.

So of course Guinness do NOT require proof that no-one has done something before or faster. They require proof of what YOU HAVE done. If someone else puts their hand up and can verify they have done it earlier or faster, then the record is amended.

But to claim Guinness require you to prove no-one has been faster or earlier is frankly absurd, and shows that you are really just making this up as you go along.

You can't prove the negative. Either for the sake of science, for Guinness or for the sake of adventure motorcycling. I am afraid Guinness do NOT share your view.

You are pissing into the wind here ... and getting pretty wet boots ...

Doh you beat me to it and even used the same example

Similarly, everytime Kevin and Julia set a new record on their bikes ... they dont have to PROVE no one has done Alaska to Tierra del Fuego in less than their time. No-one can prove someone hadnt ridden it faster when they got into the Guinness book of records for their earlier rides. You cant prove some hippy in the 1960s didnt do it in 12 days, can you?

Simon and Lisa Thomas have a record, Simon and Monika Newbound also have one for the longest road trip by a couple. They can't prove no other couple has done it longer. Of course they cant.

These are just more examples ... if someone can prove otherwise, then do so, and the record will be amended. However, in the absence of contrary evidence, the claims are valid, and people like Kevin and Julia, Simon and Lisa, Simon and Monika and others, are entitled to their claims.

Out of curiosity Alibaba, what do you make of Helge Pedersen's claim to be the first to take a motorcycle through the Darien Gap? Obviously that is also impossible to prove. Correct?

Thanks, I've learned a lot today.

Now I know it's okay to say you are the first who did something, even if you can't back it up. I'm sure it will be helpful.

As far as I know he wasn't the first :innocent:

But first you have to actually get out of the armchair and go do it.

We can back up what we did (and when) attempting the entire BAM.
Can anyone else do the same - for themselves or others?

Let's be hearing you.....

Aaahh, so you have to get out of the chair, then it doesn't fit me.


This is a nice worldmap, sadly I love my chair to much.
http://www.globeriders.com/about_pag..._BannerMap.jpg

Ah yes, I knew you were going to try and pull that stunt ... the old Helge Pedersen map.

Let me guess, you are like the cheerleader for the Helge Pedersen fan club, right?

And you have trouble accepting what anyone else does, post Helge, as having any validity?

Do you even know what roads those lines (on Helge Pedersen's map) in Siberia represent? I think if you did, you would not have had this conversation. Let me help you ... as mentioned earlier in this post, they are the Western BAM, the Lena Highway and the Kolyma Highway. Even Helge Pedersen made no attempt on the Eastern BAM.

Everything you ever reference, from reasons you need a BMW boxer to travel round the world, or the reason you need metal boxes, and now even a map of Siberia ... you take straight from Helge Pedersen. (If Helge uses a BMW boxer and metal boxes, then its good enough for me ... why do I need to think, when I can just copy Helge, right?)

The key question is ... Are you capable of having a discussion about adventure motorcycling without reference to Helge Pedersen?

He does that.

Getting a bit personal Colebatch?


I have never even been a member of any fan-club.

A lot of people (including you) have done (and will do) great trips. I don't have a problem with that, I love it!

Sorry, I don't get your point.

That's a nice one, you start to write about Helge and then you blame me.

Note:
This thread started because I asked questions like "Why do you think you are "the first"?" and "How is that possible to know?". I'm not to proud to say that I've learned a lot from your answers. Thank you!

Well I didnt get the point of putting up a map of Helge Pedersens travels, in response to Tony suggesting you get out of your armchair - as if we wouldnt recognise that it wasnt Helge Pedersens map, not yours.

A map which in any case is unrelated to the point of attempting the whole BAM ... as the forum had already earlier collectively dismissed your deliberately vague suggestion that Helge Pedersen had attempted the whole BAM


And I thought your question was adequately answered in the first few responses ... but you chose to go on, and on, and on ...

And then you came up with this ...

Which you just made up right? You made it up to try and discredit what Tony had said. You literally made something up because you didnt like Tony's answer.

I mean ... come on! Thats just being ridiculous.

I think enough has been said for people to make up their own minds.
HUBBers aren't fools.

Let's all leave it at that, sooner than try to make a bigger hole or dig a way out of it.

Do you really believe that I tried to trick you with the map?
As I wrote earlier I have never suggested that Helge attempted the whole BAM-route. In fact I didn't know that he had traveled that much in Russia.


Yes, on and on all by myself. Sorry about that.

The thing is that I don't see any reason to discredit Tony. I referred to an article I have read in a magazine.
If you check the post I wrote this before Tony answered my question so it's not a response to his answer.

Edit: Didn't see Tonys last post before I posted.

Well said Tony. Advrider has a separate forum for moving threads to that have degenerated like this, whilst I much prefer HU on the whole maybe that is something worth borrowing!
That said they also had a thread on where the best place to put your handgun was whilst adventure riding - something I def don't want to see in our land of peace and love on two wheels!

I feel this thread may not be all peace, love and harmony, but it hasn't "degenerated" to be parked somewhere else (out of view?). There are 2 distinct sides to the discussion and I assume, as Tony has suggested, it's best, at this point, to agree to disagree. Both sides have expressed their views and future readers can decide what side of the fence they are on.

cheers
C

Im a little bit confused by the whole arguement here regarding research use of the internet ect to prove anything, we know what walter did its heavily documented.
But any that came before the internet doing a first off trip or even a very strange trip would also in all likleyhood be documented. There are trips that are now on the internet by people going back to the first days of motorbike travel, magazines have been around since well before the 80s, newspapers have been around, people write books,local and national television may also have reported it. The idea that no one in teh motorcycle community has refrenced any previous trips on the internet is very strange, even from just a prep point of view
And if Im not mistaken the early times when russia opened up those that travelled were very well documented and restricted in movement by the russians to certain areas. The early 80s was not exactly a time when the russians would be very happy with anyone poking about freely in restricted areas or areas which may show them off in a bad light.
It is rather silly to continue the arguement when you can not provide any info regarding anyone else that has done it before.

D'oh, good point Chris. I did'n't mean to place it out of view just under another topic as I felt it had gone off the original one by some margin.

That's another inherent problems with threads - hard to backtrack on what's been typed! At least when I say something regrettable in the pub only the people there at the time heard it:oops2:

Keep it civil
 

Just a reminder, folks:
Keep the debate civil and on topic. :D
Please refrain from comments on the personalities of other posters. :thumbdown:
I encourage serious debate, but don't attack each other for difference of opinion.
I would like to limit my moderation to removing spam and editing email addresses in posts. But the whole thread gets booted to the Bar if it gets beyond a certain point. :taz:

Thank you,
Your Power-mad Moderator :stormy:

oh dear, perhaps the whole trip was just a bad dream.
I was definately the first out of my side of the bed this morning though.:eek3:

LOL
You were always the early riser!

Thinking along those lines I realise I can't claim to be first or even second :(

- you two guys were mostly riding ahead of me. Doh!

How about the oldest? :wheelchair:

We were all in it together Tony.

Whatever anybody else thinks, they were the some most amazing, probably never to be repeated, few weeks of my life.:funmeteryes:

Live and let live
 

And I thought that maybe there might have been some useful information on this thread. I should have just jumped on my bike and gone for a ride, it would have been much more satisfying.

Come on people, open forums aren't the places for petty, individual arguments.:thumbdown:

Oh, it wasn't so bad to read.

The decorum of the forum was nice to witness.

As HenryUK said, you can't take things back once they've been posted.

Things like off-handed remarks that seemingly cannot be substantiated.

We all know Neil Armstrong was not the first. When he got their a Gujurati with a chai cart was waiting. :)

It takes a decent person to offer an apology and a decent one to accept it.

Letting HUBBers decide is probably best.

Enjoy your maps and your rides.

Kurt

The Gujurati chap wasn't the first either, unless he arrived before 1945... It was a Mr Adolf H. There's even a newspaper article to prove it.:(
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../41/Spurt1.gif

Definitely :offtopic:

Rob & Bam
 

Gentlemen,

I do not what number I will be, but Colebatch and TonyP's adventures have inspired me. Next year in July, August and September a friend of mine and I will try both ROB and BAM. The whole BAM. Then drive back to Norway.

I can not foresee the future, but I can say one thing fore shure; It will be an experience of a lifetime.

How far will we get? I'll tell you in october 2012 ;-)


Best regards

EtronX

Bam
 

BAM

Booze ,,
Ass ,,
Motorcycle ,,

I am in !

It certainly will!

For the BAM you will have to have an exceedingly well prepared and equipped vehicle.
Read this thread http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...h-russia-55048
and particularly Colebatch's post № 10.

Michal Rej is 'an old pro' at this stuff, with seemingly big budget support and sponsors. His SiberiaMongolia expedition had to be severely reduced after driving just the west section of the BAM to Tynda (the much easier section), due to the damage it had caused to their vehicles. Syberia-Mongolia 2009

We will follow your progress with interest.

Forgive me if this has already been sorted before but . . .

How did you get so much time for your Visa ? 30-days clearly wasn't long enough from UB or Irkutsk to Magadan.

If you were to break the BAM ride down from Lake Baikal to Magadan what would you estimate for segments or which would be the toughest ?

I ask because I'll have just 30 days in Russia this summer and crossing at Sukhbatar I'll try going east until I need to turn back and exit into Kazakhstan.

My KTM 950 is large, but will be packed VERY light.

TIA,

Kurt

(1) always get multiple entry business visas. We did.

(2) The BAM Road doesnt go from Baikal to Magadan ... It goes from North and West of Baikal to Vanino / Sovetskaya Gavan ... a couple of thousand kilometres south of Magadan. If you travel to Magadan you can take a part of the BAM Road to Tynda (about half way along it). Its the easy part of the BAM Road. Will probably take you a week to get from Bratsk to Tynda. Then you must leave the BAM road and take the main Highway to Magadan. Tynda to Magadan will also take you about a week.

Hmmnn . . .

The more I look at this . . . the more I like the possibility of doing it as an in and out all the way to Magadan, back to Tynda or Irkutsk. Perhaps I re-enter Mongolia for R&R !

Am I mad ? (Rhetorical question . . . )

And options on the return leg(s) ?

Of course, this will necessitate the biz Visa.

Kurt