Libya to Sudan border
 

Hi, Is the Libya to Sudan border technically open now? It looks like an interesting alternative to Egypt and the ferry.
Cheers
Mark

If only it was that easy!
 

It never was open before for escorted tourists - and I doubt very much has changed now. If anything it's more lawless down there.
There's no recognised track or border controls AFAIK, so the route was (is) frequently used by smugglers.
For tourists the only official border crossings for the last few years have been on the coastal frontiers with Tunisia and Egypt. I have not heard that that has changed but I have not yet heard of a tourist transiting from one side to the other. Does anyone know?

Ch

What goes wrong?
 

Excuse mycomplete ignorance, but what would go wrong? Would the army roadblacks send you back? Or would you cross the border but without any passport stamps (and subsequent problems)? Or is there not track to drive on?
I was hoping that the rules about being escorted woudl be relaxed with the new regime. But what do these escorts actually do anyway?

News Reports, suggested they wanted to close the border to smugglers but not to trade or tourism.

Hi Mark, what indeed - that's what I thought on my first desert trip ;-) - I saw 2 places far apart, drew a line and rode along it...

I don't know this corner of Libya and have been away so don't know the latest situation out there, but this is my speculation:

It may only be 1000km from Kufra to Dongola but in all my years I have never heard of any legit tourist taking this route, although SE Libya-Chad or Alg-Mori (= as remote) have been done by adventurous individuals. In 10 years I struggle to recall it being asked on this forum.

Even the smugglers we encountered in the Gilf chose to risk cutting the SW corner of Egypt above Jebel Uweinat (more borders, extra risks) than go Sudan-Libya direct. That must say something about terrain/driveable routes or patrols?

If entering Sudan without paperwork was no big deal and solved with a quick packet of fags, you'd think people would try the technically easy and much less risky land route from Egypt to Sudan to avoid the ferry hassle. Iirc, never heard of anyone doing that either.

Don't know what goes on down there now - it may be less disciplined local militias at odds with the new govt. As I say, I'd wait until we've heard of a regular tourist driving in and out of Libya, even just along the coastal transit route, before making too many plans for the south. I believe some may be engaged in this at the moment, and know others who are heading into the south (without cars).
My feeling is that while the new govt is trying to get to grips with the north (where most live) the south (where us desert tourists like to go) is being left for later. Life will go on down there, but you'd think the former fear of the state may take a dive, PGFs may be hanging out, while smuggling out cheap Libyan commodities (including weapons), and incoming narcotics and so on, may be having a heyday. This is all my speculation.

The entire 7500-km Maghreb-Sahel border line from Red Sea to Atlantic is porous, as I'm sure you know, with no more than a dozen actual border posts along its length (mostly in the west). Either you pay someone to take you, or you try and slip out of Kurfa unnoticed (or avoid it altogether) and be ready to face the music in Dongola, 1000km later (assuming you head for there; nearest town AFAICT). Chances are you will see no one along the way - there was a Libyan checkpoint at Jebel Uweinat back in the day - maybe still. But the way things have gone in Libya lately, it would not be a reach to assume you were a mercenary or similar slipping out with your stash, absurd though it may sound to you.
Sudan may be poor, but they're still fond of paperwork and may take a dim view of a tourist trying to slip in from Libya just to take a short cut. At worst it could mean your vehicle gets confiscated and you're extradited. We tried a similar stunt, 2000km across the north of Mali, from Mori direct to Algeria (without checking out of Mori, or in/out of Mali. Once in Alg, what's the worst that can happen, we thought? At Bordj Moktar they were very suspicious when by chance our Alg guide recognised someone and charmed his way in for us (that's what we paid him with an 80VX for...). And yet like you, all we were doing was driving around the empty desert, having an adventure.

There must be vehicle tracks here and there, but I have never heard of a recognised piste or even gros porteur Merc lorries doing this route - as they do/did to north Chad or Niger. Have a look at Google Earth too; the terrain and dune orientation does not seem conducive to the SE transit.

So were we all ;-) but that seems a long way off, if it ever happens - in the south at least. I'm not convinced the new regime controls the entire country yet, or certainly not with the grip which the old one had.

In Libya they smoothed the way at immigration, made money for the northern agencies, paperwork or tax for the state, and hired local guides down south, when needed.
In other words nothing we could not manage in the pre-escort days, but that is the way it is in much of the Sahara these days. I also forgot to mention 'pour votre securite'.

Well they would say that, but how can you properly manage a 4000-km border along 6 countries? Smuggling is a fact of life in the Sahara and it makes a lot more easy money than tourism, I suspect. Plus it's highly likely that in many places local authorities make a cut off it, so why stop it?

I have given a rather pedantic answer to help future readers make up their minds on this subject. I am sure others who know this area better will chip in soon.

Ch

Sahara Overland ~ Trans Sahara Routes

There's is a busy piste between Dongola and Kufra. Mainly trucks. I did not travel this route myself, but saw many trucks with destination Libya in Dongola some years ago. Official border crossing at Karabatum. Ten years ago these trucks also drove from Libya to Fasher. Do not know if they still do. Many Tora Bora (bandits) in the western desert in Sudan, they told me in Chad.

Plenty transport between Libya and Chad. Do not know if whites are allowed to cross now (they were not under Khaddafi).

I have the impression you can now travel without guide in your own car across Libya. But do not know if it is safe.

From Klaus Daer, 1993 (Translated from German)
Desert conditions no doubt v.similar. Its the people who change.

SUDAN
10) El Geneina - Nyala - El Fasher:
Good, wide track to 154km away Zalingei, Nyala and from there on excellent paved road.
In Nyala, all other facilities, possibly with fuel problems. Continue north on hard, wide, not to miss Santander slope towards El Fasher.
El Fasher: market, possibly fuel.
11) El Fasher - Mellit - Karabatum - Jabal al Uweinat (Libya):
ATTENTION! The entry to Libya on Jabal al Uweinat, thus coming from Sudan, is permitted by the Libyans only Arabs! The refusal of entry may have dramatic consequences. The Libyans also Europeans refuse to leave from Libya to Sudan while the Sudanese have no objections to their entry.
ATTENTION! From El Fasher to Karabatum to 900km deep, soft sand, but no dunes. It must be reckoned with very high fuel consumption on these very large distance. The MERCEDES 290GD took over 40l/100km. From El Fasher on Wednesdays and Sundays, a truck convoy moves in 5-day journey to Kufra.
Exit from El Fasher in the north to deep sandy tracks over gigantic, reddish, very shallow, vegetated sand fields. After 36km at N13 ° 58 `32", E25 ° 27 `47" village of Umm Marah low supply capability. Continue in deep-worn tracks in the sand in the 35km distant Mellit N14 ° 07 `39", E25 ° 32 `06".
Mellit: Good water can be taken by a motor pump from wells. Surprisingly large city with a relatively good supply option market, fuel, customs, police, security. This must be done from Sudan after refueling the exit formalities. Fuel, as well as many supplies come by truck from Libya. It must be here the entire fuel for the route to the remote Kufra 1.300km be bunkered and this fuel-eating sand at 800km ride. If the fuel is scarce, despite precaution, so you can try to buy something Libyan truck drivers.
30km you will reach the village behind Mellit Sajah, N 14 ° 18 `40", E25 ° 45 `26", well, small shops. Further 46km later at N14 ° 36 `08", E26 ° 02 `18" Madu village. Of these, 58km away Malha, N15 ° 05 `25", E26 ° 09 `36". Do not miss the north east approximately 80m deep crater with salt lake of Malha at N15 ° 07 `39", E26 ° 10 `32". He is in a location easily visible from the volcano and the nomads of the region serves as a warehouse for salt and drinking camel herds. It is possible to travel by jeep up to the crater rim.
Malha of the unmarked route leads after 44km in a village near N15 ° 23 `15", E26 ° 03 `16" and after another 38km to Harra, N15 ° 35 `17", E26 ° 14 `52, a kind of truck resting place is. Harra 100km north end of the vegetation and can be reached on isolated bundles in the deep sand track to the Wadi Howar 160km at N16 ° 57 `26", E26 ° 04 `04".
From Wadi Howar, many, much diverging, after long stretches windswept track bundles through deep sand north and continue for about 400km to the Sudanese police base Karabatum, N 20 ° 13:49 `, E 25 ° 30.13 'the last 100km before Karabatum are not continuous sand but also on long distances gravelly and stony ground. In Karabatum registration is required, the passport will be registered, available water if necessary. Here also pass the four-wheel drive trucks and buses that run in about 5-day trip from Kuftra Karabatum about 600km away in the Dongola. The runway there is reportedly much less than the sandy track to Mellit.
One of Karabatum 200km long trail leads to the Libyan border station Al build up our camps N21 ° 52 `10", E24 ° 48 '22 "at the foot of Jabal al-mountain build up our camps. Where entry formalities are done. There is a small business with key food staples in place and if necessary can be acquired by the police or petrol from diesel trucks Libyan oil. The entry and exit is allowed since 1992 to date only Arabs, but not Europeans or black Africans! 8km east of the water must be fetched directly at the foot of the mountain in rocky waterhole Ayn al Ghazal, N21 ° 48 `50", E24 ° 51 `29". On February 3, 1994, the International Court of Justice in The Hague said the controversial between Libya and Chad Aouzu Strip to Chad. Libya then this strip of land under UN supervision until 30 May cleared. The internationally recognized border is now as it was in the IGN map have always drawn. An entry from Libya in the north-Europeans, but Chad is still not possible

Karabatum

Close up of Kara

simpler than that
 

There is little to physically stop you doing this.

The problem is that, should you do so, the person/company sponsoring your visa is going to get in a world of trouble. Indeed, any tourist agency will probably lose their tourism permit=go bust.

Safe travels, Sam.

Libya - Sudan
 

I would be very wary of attempting this at present. Smugglers notwithstanding, the Darfur rebels supported Ghadafi and made a couple of raids in the direction of Kufra during the revolution (though the exact extent and numbers are highly speculative). Authorities on both sides would be jittery about any unannounced and unauthorised traffic. I know that some people have reached Uweinat from the Sudan in late autumn last year (with permits from the Sudanese authorities), but they carefully avoided the border with Libya, and could provide no info on whether there is any Libyan presence there, or the posts have been abandoned.

If the Libyan border posts are still manned, the question remains of by whom, and with what allegiences...

If the posts have been abandoned, then the vacuum will quickly be filled by someone. The wells of Ain Dua and Ain Ghazal provide the only reliable water along the entire route from Kufra to the Darfur or the Nile - I cannot concievably see those being left unattended for long. Whoever controls that water controls the entire route. Knowing the various 'interests' roaming the region, I would not be very happy with any of them taking up residence there.

Assuming that you would be able to tackle the route, there would be some interesting explanation to be done on either end. Libya is full of checkpoints and roadblocks, only people with clear and legitimate authority would be allowed to pass in any direction. Coming up from the Sudan, you'd likely experience some delays, possibly involving a small room with no furniture and bars on the windows, and no, you cannot call your lawyer...

Andrasz, Chris and Sam already pointed out the main concerns. All I can add is that at the beginning of 2010 there was Libyan border-post at Jebel Aweinat with quite lively traffic on the well established piste to and from Sudan, mainly 6x6 Mercedes trucks.

The best attempt to avoid the car being taken by any unofficial body is to travel with a modern, full-of-electronics car that would be useless in the Sahara, but this still doesn't prevent you being robbed by anyone patrolling the vast area or imprisoned by those who can't really understand a foreigner would be at these times really travel the area between Cyrenaica and Darfur purely for tourism.

And something else - up here someone offered an option to sneak out of Kufra unnoticed or avoid it completely. The first is impossible, the latter would mean you have to actually avoid all the checkpoints from the Mediterranean southwards which I also find impossible (except if you mount a hang-glider on you car so you can avoid the strategically located check-points by jumping off several cliffs), not to mention the incredible fuel-autonomy you would need (825 km road Ajdabiya-Kufra + 300 km Kufra-Jebel Aweinat + all the rest). An alternative would be over Waw an-Namus and Rebiana, but still - I don't know which agency would sign its death-sentence to do all this for you.

Or to which agency you would be ready to sign a death sentence by escaping them. At the moment there's no tourism in Libya, they have much more serious issues to solve first. I would reckon tourism is on their priorities list somewhere close to their space program.

Encouraging....?
 

Putting all the responses together is quite encouraging. I had not intended to evade border controls. So in answer to the main issues:

1) Is there a route from Libya to Chad?

Yes. Moderately well travelled with a recognised border crossing.

2) Is it open?

It is open to Arabs. The Libya side only was not open to Europeans, but it is unclear what the current rule is.

3) Is it safe?

Probably not. Political control, local rules, local militia and criminality are serious risks.

but....

There is a regular convoy that makes the route.

That seems to leave open the strategy of trying to get written formal permission to cros the border. Then staying with the convoy between towns. If an area seems safe, we can explore locally and then join the next convoy to continue the trek. Is this a mad idea?

Yes. That is exactly what it is.

Then I enjoy a lot pedantic reading. This and the subsequent post are really a pleasure to read, even for someone like me who doesn't have a clue about this topic. Congrats to all those who "chipped in". :smartass:

I think I can safely say that the intention of all the posters here with first hand info was quite to the contrary.

NO! There are a number of diverging and converging unmarked tyre tracks in the desert, that don't really qualify as a piste. It is over 1000km of uninhabited desert, with no towns, people, etc. A couple of random trucks (Not convoys!) passed down that route every week before the Libyan revoultion, nobody has any idea what is going on now. As for the Sudan route, there was practically zero legitimate traffic since the Darfur events heated up. There have been a number of semi-confirmed reports that the Karabatum post was held by the Darfur rebels, and the route was used to supply arms (provided by the late great gardener) to the rebels.

See above. As far as I know, nobody aside citizens of Libya/Sudan/Chad have been able to make a legitimate crossing there in the last 10 years.

Rather academic in light of above...

Kuno summed up the answer quite nicely... However if you do give it a try, there will be a lot of interested ears, some may even be willing to pay for a pint or two in return for the story, assuming the remote possibility that you will be able to tell it.

Just to add to the general knowledge base this might be of interest from a few years ago -

WFP convoy crosses Libya-Chad border | WFP | United Nations World Food Programme - Fighting Hunger Worldwide

As most have said it all seems too risky for European mortals:nono:

Some footage of the crossing in this promo from WFO
and lots more info if you google - Libya Chad Convoy

Are you sure you mean Chad or maybe made a mistake with Sudan?

Because if you mean Chad, that is a slightly less outlandish idea.
gvdaa did it a couple? of times along the Zouar route in the west:
Sahara Overland ~ Chad with Mercs

But that was 10+ years ago. I believe there was a plan recently to go back that way (with Chad support), but the Libyan revolution put an end to it.

I have not done it but I would say El Gatrun-Zouar is a recognised piste into north Chad (colonial/WWII era, on the Mich map) with some diversions around mined areas. The Kufra-Matan-Ounianga trade route into Chad (which I believe the WFP took), I would classify as a piste too. It's on maps and is a pretty clear line (until Ounianga) on Google. There's even an actual border post on the border. P.614 in the book describes this route loosely from 1999 - not for the faint-hearted.

If there proves to be stability, permission and all the rest in the south of Libya* then I would say El Gatrun-Zouar would not be beyond the pale, though perhaps not for a first timer.

But if we're still talking about Libya-Sudan, then I'd guess it's as Kuno and Andrasz describe.

Ch

* I read yesterday that former rebels from Zintan occupy the southern oases like Ubari, so it may not be as 'wild west' as I assumed down there, although Kufra could be another story.

I think this was the best reply of the lot!
and it says a bunch
if you want an adventure you'll have to go for it :thumbup1:

now in what ways would this endeavour be more dangerous than the trip that GvdAa did with those two Merc 190s anno dazumal???

and shouldn't we try to stake out new routes for adventurers?
like finding the best west-to-east route
in a changing Sahara

One thing that you have to be clear about when trying something like the Libya-Sudan route is whether you can deal with ending up in detention somewhere while your case is being dealt with (e.g. the query is passed up the chain from the border post, or while some regional chief-admin guy decides if you are an arms smuggling risk, but it takes him a few days to weigh things up). So it all might end OK, but given that the route is unusual, you will likely be detained at their pleasure for as long as it takes to figure things out. Andrasz has already mentioned this possibility. The key thing is to know whether you have got the composure to deal with it.

I did an unsual route from Djanet to Chirfa (Algeria to Niger) that caught the Niger authorities by surprise and it took them 10 days or so to work out if we should be free to proceed. It was a l-o-n-g 10 days without my passport and I wouldn't want to do that again. That was 10 years ago. Given the issues to hand now, I don't think it would be as short as 10 days.

I'd add that it is important in all countries in Africa for border posts to know where you have come from - i.e. to be able to trace stamps in passports. This almost never happens on arrival at busy borders in Europe, esp at airports but seems routine in Africa. It makes it much more risky therefore, to leave a country unofficially and arrive at another, officially. They'll work out pretty quickly that you left unofficially and that will ring the bells. I appreciate this may not be the intention. But suppose you arrive at the NW border of Sudan and there is no one willing to stamp you out, or no one able to? The temptation and reasonable thing might be to carry on. But that will put you in the unofficial category.

Finally, a colleague looked into driving north in Chad to Libya a year or so ago. I was somewhat surprised when the embassies of both countries said it was OK. I say somewhat because the embassies sometimes aren't good at advising on overland routes (I am being polite here!). He made it to Faya in Chad, but then ran into difficulties for other reasons. Had he not, I think he might well have made it to Libya. It could be the case that this route is acceptable as an unusual once off but just that no one has tried. Right now I'd prefer Chad-Libya to Sudan-Libya. That said, Chad alone would be good enough for me.

If I was to attempt this route I would only do it after checking and sniffing around the area for a couple of times and after getting local info, as reliable as possible and I would probably not be putting a theory on the forums. To put it in other words, I wouldn't try it without already previously knowing anything about the area - then, it would depend of my guts and of the answer to the question why I'm doing it and whether it's really worth it. At the moment, knowing the area as much as I do, I wouldn't attempt it.

In any case, if you do it and you're able to tell it afterwards, I'm sure, as Andrasz said, many here will be glad to read it. On the other hand, I still believe some things are better kept secret for the ones with guts. As soon as it starts being advertised on forums and two or three wrong parties use the tip, it might quickly become impossible even for those with guts.

If the story of the crossing-attempt some day fills the headlines for a day or two, it'll be nice to follow it in the same thread. Just for the sake of the continuity. ;)

R.A. Bagnold's and his sahara travels have been mentioned on the Hubb before. Remember he and his friends went this way in the 1920's, in Model T Ford's, pioneering tracks and developing new methods of navigation, driving and existing there in ways that had never been known previously, under exactly the same political conditions as exist there now if not worse.


I can't but agree with Priffe's sentiments and I'd go further; show the same spirit, the thirst for adventure and the unknown that these modest and self effacing men did in former times and now seems to be absent in too many modern men – or to put it in the present vernacular “don't be such pussy's”...


It's sometimes easy to forget the simple truths of why we do what we do but I can do no better than quote the preface to R.A.Bagnold's book “Libyan Sands”. We stand on the shoulders of giants:-



Preface

As other people collect their poems and finally republish them, I have collected my travels.

Travels among the ruins of desert kingdoms and the crocks and querns of prehistoric tribes; beyond them among creeping dunes, petrified forests and in places where nothing exists, no sprouting grass blade nor worm of decay; where perhaps, in certain spots, nothing ever did exist; travels shared, companions changing but ideas preserved; and all over a sense of what travel is, and how it can be done with little pomp, little money, much love of it and very much preparation.

I agree that Bagnold is a much under-rated desert explorer and his book is one of the best in its genre.

But I don't think one can compare camel-mounted tribesmen or Senussi renegades harassing Brit soldiers (probably with pistols) roaming around newly decolonised Egypt in motor cars in the late 20s, with the Janjaweed (or whatever they've become now) rocking up in technicals on unarmed tourists looking for an adventure in foreign lands.

It is notable that Bagnold's 1932 trip ('6000 miles') included much of NE Chad (then a French colony) but avoided Libya.

Or have I fallen into a trolling trap ;-)

I still think some confusion has crept in over the Zouar route into Chad and the OP's query about Libya-Sudan. They are not the same, IMO.

Ch

I think that's a military distinction more than a political one. Bagnold and his team was just a fettered by “permissions” to travel to the various places he did (strikingly familiar ones as it happens) as is the modern traveller; to get to Transjordan for example, or around the Sinai. Sometimes they took side arms or rifles, mostly they went unarmed. In the western dessert they came across Italian soldiers in whose territory there was war. Borders change but the dessert hasn't – they went west of the Gilf and far beyond and were at Benghazi also.


Of course times have changed together with the nature of the hazards but where we have land mines and AK wielding groups they had no roads and lawless bandits armed to the teeth by the British government during and after WW1 who flooded the area with arms. They had sun compasses we have satellites in the sky to guide us. I imagine you could transpose hazards one for one if you wished.


My wider point and also I think Priffe's is that these men were not daunted by the challenges with which they were faced or chose to take on and were in much if not more danger than we would be going to the same places today.


Taking another line from his book which I think sums up these men and the point I wish to make; Bagnold stood at Siwa looking to the south and south west where the Great Sand Sea lies. Consulting the only map that existed: “where the map of Egypt faded away into blankness stippled vaguely to indicate sand, and ended with the final stimulating remarks “ limit of sand-dunes unknown”. They pointed their Model T's in that direction and drove into it.


Also - no traps here :innocent:

To be fair, Bagnold also states “we never went where we were not wanted, got shot up by angry tribesmen or provoked a reluctant government to send out police and troops” and he saw this as a disbenefit to an interesting book (!) but I see it as a great achievment of organisation and original thinking.

Update.
 

Reported today on Misurata radio, that several hundred Misurata militia men have been sent to this border to seal it from immigrants crossing into Libya.

So at least you know someone will meet you at the border.
CJ.

Not exacly encouraging news from the South...

Three killed in Libya tribal clashes | News by Country | Reuters

------------ added by CS ----------
More on that topic a few days later
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNew...81G00A20120217
CS