Gilf Kibir kidnappings
 

Hello,

maybe this is a special year for kidnapping:

Egypt: Tourists Kidnapped Near Aswan | World News | Sky News

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content...4/15104606.jpg

Regards

Ulrich

P.S.: I'm sorry that I'm mostly the deliverer for bad news.

I presume it's out towards Gilf Kebir.

Yes, that's what my private source told me:

Warning! Maybe it happened in Gilf Khebir

Ulrich

Here is the confirmation
Al Jazeera English - Middle East - Tourists 'abducted' in Egypt

Regards

Ulrich

11 tourists abducted near Uweinat
 

All accross the mainstream news, with lots of misinformation, but the sketchy facts:

11 foreigners, 5 Italian, 5 German and a Romanian. They were with an egyptian operator, including the company owner, two giudes(?), four drivers and an officer, with four cars. The abductors were african in appearance (based on phone call from one of the group members), most likely Sudanese. The incident apparently happened on friday, but news only became known today afternoon (monday).

The group started from Dakhla, the abduction happened somewhere somewhere in the Gilf/Uweinat area, or possibly on the Selima Sand Sheet. Latest reports suggest the event happened in Karkur Talh, echoing the event last February posted on Carlo Bergmann's website

Group allegedly taken accross the Sudanese border, reportedly a 6 million USD ransom is being asked. There are reports suggesting that some negotiations are taking place (presumably over the group's Satphone).

In a new twist, it is now reported that the abductors may have been Egyptian. This is not totally surprising, as one would need insider info to know when/where a group is going, otherwise it is a pretty big and empty place just to leave hunting for chance... The SLA were quick to deny any involvement, but I doubt whether their spokesperson actually knows what all the loose groups are doing, so for the time being tha abductors may well be Sudanese (or even from Chad as some sources suggested).

More as I get some reliable info.

It appears the Gilf / Uweinat is off limits for the time being :(

UPDATE 1: Earlier reports that the 11 tourists have been released appear to be false, it is being denied by officials in Cairo. As of tuesday morning it appears to be full confusion, for the time being nothing is really known, except that the incident did happen. It appears that the German government is taking a lead in the negotiations. I'm not sure this bodes well: with their track record of paying up, if this will be the case again then it simply reinforces the viability of the business model.

UPDATE 2: No real news over the past two days, and the thread is growing so I will no longer update this post, will make new posts when any meaningful information surfaces.

Ach Mensch.... :rolleyes2: Any chance, Ulrich, for some HAPPY news please? we all know the world is an evil place blah blah blah but there are still some amazingly good stuff & people out there!:Beach:
Bitter Schön?

Hello Bert and all others, good news now:

Egypt | Africa - Reuters.com - Gunmen free foreign hostages seized in Egypt

Friendly regards :D

Ulrich

"and all are safe and sound, Egypt's Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said on Monday."

No so fast

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Egypt abduction talks 'ongoing'

Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit originally reported their release ahead of a meeting with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in New York.

He said the hostages were "safe and sound".

But the cabinet spokesman, Magdy Radi, later said: "It is premature to say they are released. The negotiations are still continuing."

Sorry, but the bad news stick on my fingers

Reuters - Kidnappers threaten to kill hostages - Egypt official

Greetings

Ulrich

First, I hope for the sake of all involved that this latest issue solves itself quickly - at least as quickly as Egypt's foreign minister seemed to think it had been solved.

There was an interesting pattern of escalation in the Gilf - starting with the theft of the cars which was discussed extensively on the forum earlier this year. Following that was the strange set of events with the Swiss guys, who had the cars and belongings stolen and then returned (partly) some days later. And now this. It is almost as though the bandits were testing the extent of the counter insurgency capabilities before they went for the big (multi-million euro) effort.

Looking more broadly, there is a pattern of abductions emerging across a lot of Africa north of the equator. About 30 ships have been hijacked in Somalia this year and there is a whole industry built around feeding and maintaining the kidnapped (near the town of Eyl). Then there are the abductions in the Niger Delta in Nigeria and the kidnapping of the Austrains who are still being held in Mali. News of a 'good' idea seems to spread quite far.

The region I am most familiar with crime-wise is South Africa were a similar pattern of 'idea' crime has spread (not involving kidnappings as much as ATM explosions, cash-in-transit heists and so on). The difficulty here is that those undertaking the crime initially, tend to plan carefully and are pretty professional. The crime soon leads to bloodshed when less capable bandits copy the ideas. Makes you wonder about the Sahara.

Permission for Great Sand Sea
 

To Andrasz,
Hi as I know you're a very experienced desert traveller to the Gilf and Unweinat. I'm planning to do a trip middle of November with some friends from Farafra (badawiya) and would like to know your opinion. I just plan to do a 6 to 7 night trip from Farafra-Ain Dalla-Sand Sea until the Silica Field and back to Abu Minqar. Do you think that the Egyptian governement will suspend all necessary permissions to travel into the Sand Sea? Would like to read your opinion about this matter.
Thanks.
Regards,
Thomas

Bandits apart - is the Gilf so special to make such an effort to visit, particularly if you have traversed the Sahara from Mori to Egypt via Algeria and Libya? I guess my question is, what is so special about it?

Hello Thomas,

It is pure speculation at the moment. Much will depend on the outcome of this event, but my assessment is that restrictions will be put in place, simply to show that the Egyptian government is doing something (which they are not, the only thing they will want is to prevent another incident causing bad press for the immensely more important Nile valley tourism). However it is impossible to guess what the restrictions will be - usually there is no logic to it. We'll just have to wait and see...

Personally I'd consider any place north of 24 degrees perfectly safe, at least from the angle we are talking about now.

Your question gives the answer :): It is remote, uninhabited, untouched, unexplored. Wish it would have stayed that way...

Permissions to the Sand Sea
 

Dear Andrasz,
Thank you for your opinion. It was the answer I expected. The most important for the governement is that tourism at the Red Sea and Nile Valley will not be affected. They make millions of income out of it and can easily renounce to the some thousands they made out of the permissions and the so called officers they sent on each trip. Comparing to the main tourism areas this are just peanuts. I'm only sorry for all who plan to do trips to the Gilf and for the tour operators who are depending on this income (specially at this moment when the high season is starting).
Also about the logic I completly agree with you...there is no logic in whole Egypt..I was living 5yrs in Cairo so anything will be possible.
Would you be so kind to inform me about any news concerning the permissions (I guess you are planing trips too in the coming months). You may contact me also outside the forum at saharagems Aattt yahoo com
Thanks again.
Regards,
Thomas

I'll be posting here any news that appear to be credible. However be prepared that just like after the January incident, there will be a lot of Chinese whispers.

Some more news:
BBC - Egypt hostages' location 'known'

Till soon

Ulrich

Andras,

Would you know where exactly the incident took place? World media mention the name "Wadi el-Gadid", but then they have no clue where it is. See here.

11 tourists, eight Egyptians kidnapped - CNN.com

BTW, apart from being completely clueless about geography, I also noticed they were making up their own conjectures about the incident.

The initial CNN report quoted an Egyptian source as saying: "The tourist group started their safari last week in Dakhla in western Sahara Desert, near Morocco" (sic!). Later on they removed part of this ludicrous quote from the report.

How far the group might have gone into the Sudan?

The consensus I'm picking up on the grapevine is that the attack happened in Karkur Talh, and the group may now be somewhere close to Uweinat on the Sudanese side. However nothing is confirmed, and no new info really over the past two days.

Most of the reports seem to be saying that the group is close to the triple point, on the south side of the mountain in Sudan. But if I were a bandit, I'd have taken the group at least 100 km south in the midst of northern Sudan. Don't you think staying near Jebel Uweinat is unlikely as it is too exposed and too close to Egypt and Libya?

I agree, however you need to have a water source to sustain 20+ people, so Karkur Murr sounds plausible. It was only reported that the abductors were 4 or 5, but the 'support team' could be much larger. However this is all speculation, there could be deliberate misreports all over the press statements.

Something new

Reuters - Troops watch kidnap group in Sahara, avoid attack

Regards

Ulrich

Hi,

I just had a word with my source in EG. Apparently Karkur Murr was the place where these guys were last seen. The word is out there's no immediate ban expected on travel to the area, just a strong warning to avoid Karkur Talh and the border area close to Al Uweinat.

The latest news:

Reuters - Egypt is in direct talks with kidnappers - source

Regards

Ulrich

As Andrasz pointed out earlier, the rumours are likely to be more imaginative than normal for this event so, bearing that in mind (!) there are reports that the German govt only is reponsible for the 6m euro ransom and that the money should be delivered by the german wife of the tour operator.

I wonder if the bandits have been following the Malian story? That ransom money has apparently become stuck somewhere.

More here:

Egypt: Kidnappers demand €6m: Africa: News: News24

moved thread
 

Thanks Chris!

I have not received any credible news over the past day, I consder most of the stuff appearing on the news to be pure speculation to hide the fact that nothing is known. Probably we are not going to hear much until the situation is resolved one way or another.

Will keep posting any reliable looking news.

and now that the group is in Libya....
Hostages moved to Libya: Africa: News: News24

Interestingly the Austrians taken in Tunisia, were moved through Algeria to Mal and some reports say they are shifted across the boder to Niger from time to time. If all these reports are true, then the bandits will know that getting a coordinated response from 2 or 3 countries is much more difficult - something which makes resuce of the kidnapped more difficult and therefore keeps the bandits in control. In this sense the triple point (Egypt, Libya, Sudan) lends itself to the tactic.

I consider this piece of news to be very unlikely. With the Libyans the only ones having a permanent military and police presence in the area (at Ain Dua and Ain Ghazal along the western side of Uweinat), I'm sure they would have kept an eye open for just such an eventuality. I think it is rather more likely that the Sudanese, who for the past day claimed that they knew where the abductors are and are "keeping an eye on them", in fact have no idea, and this way they can easily disclaim all responsibility with a "now it's not our problem".

I would only consider this news to be credible if it were a part of a negotiated settlement, leaving the group at the Libyan post with free passage to the abductors, but again this is very unlikely and nothing of the sort mentioned.

I promised myself not to repost bits of news or make fun of this rather sad situation, but I could not resist when I read this one:

:laugh:

As predictable, the Libyans are denying that the group is on Libyan territory. Given that only the Libyans have the logistical capability to do a proper search in the area, probably they are right.

Since the incident had been dragging on for over a week now, they must be at some water source, or moving towards one soon. If they are no longer at Uweinat, then most likely they have moved south to one of the oases in the South Libyan Desert (Merga or Bir Natrun) that are currently under the SLA 'sphere of influence'. (Calling them being under anybody's "control" would be a gross overstatement). These oases are about 500-600 kilometres from Uweinat, there is no other water source till the inhabited areas of Darfur a further 300 kilometres south.

An interesting parallel is that in the early nineten thirties the same area was the hideout of a pretty notorious band of bandits led by one Aremi Gongoi, a Goraan of the eastern Ennedi. The Sudan Defence Force made a full fledged military operation in 1931 to capture the bandits, with no result. It later emerged that the bandits simply moved to Bir Bidi, a well some 15 kilometres north of Merga.

Some more insight in the rumour they moved across the border into Libya.
Temporarly to fill up stocks and are back in Sudan.

on Reuters: Egypt | Africa - Reuters.com

Though I've no knowledge about the region, it sounds plossible (and disturbing).

???

The closest store is in Kufra 400 kilometres away, and the Libyan military are sitting on the two wells on the western side of Uweinat. Sounds like ignorant journalism to me...

The BBC is reporting that six of the bandits have been shot, but that the 19 other are OK but still in captivity.....

BBC NEWS | World | Tourist kidnappers 'shot dead'

News is being repeated parrot fashion all accross the global media, together with the added info that the group is now held in Chad. Two days ago they went to Libya, and yet a day earlier the Sudanese military surounded the village they were hiding in. I'm sure it is all reliable and accurate information...

... and Reuters said that "the army seized a white car and a bus (sic!) belonging to an (sic!) Egyptian tourism company":

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LS333674.htm

BBC now reporting that they have been freed
 

The news of the group having been freed appear to be credible, though I'd be happier if some german official source would also confirm it.

Some sources say Egyptian special forces were involved, and that the rescue operation happened in northern Chad. I wonder what / how much of all the reports of the past week will be proven true, and how much is journalist fiction.

If indeed the group is being flown back from the Chad/Sudan border regions, they should arrive in Cairo in about 1-2 hours.

The kidnapped group has just arrived to a military airport east of Cairo, they were released in a military operation and no ransom was paid, half of the kidnapers were killed!

I got into an argument here few months ago , and now I must say im sorry to refuse to believe the January rubbery incident , I guess in some situations people refuse to believe the bad news until its confirmed .

Any way I guess it was better to kill those bandits instead of paying to them.

Mahmoud Mohareb

Permits for Egypt Desert
 

The end of this episode raises an interesting moral, philosophical point for me. If by going to these places and accepting the risk of abduction for yourself, what is the moral implication of putting at risk those who are sent to secure your release, not mention those abductors who lose their lives as a result of their own actions?

As a consequence of these people going to the Gilf a number of people are now dead.



There are other places in the world where the risks and potential consequences are similar. Should they be avoided?

I think everyone wants to know what exactly went on here first......

Hmmm, I'd rephrase that:

As a consequence of some people thinking it was a good idea to take other people hostage and demand a ransom these first people are now dead.

Yes, I know it's not that simple, but I don't think the victims should be blamed. They did have guides, after all and presumably govt. permits as well.

As this event demonstrates, having guides and permits has very little to do with whether you are abducted or not. In the absence of economies, local goverments, tax and observed borders, abductions have been an age old way of making an income in the Sahara. The trick is to try and figure out when and where these abductions are likely to happen. There were some warning signs earlier this year that the Gilf was on the list.

Wow, for me too! But I can't imagine a world where moral responsibility of the victim is always weighted against that of the perpetrator. Because then we will be only a step away from the conclusion that the very existence of victims is a major incitement to crime. Why bother with chasing knife wielding yobs if we can make walking streets after dark a morally repugnant activity?

:offtopic:

An interesting discussion, however could I suggest to start a new thread on this. Most people read this thread to get information on the event and the subsequent regulations for the Gilf, the various points of view on this question will quickly clutter the thread with off-topic responses.

As we have become accustomed to during the events, the picture emerging in the international press on the release of the group is rather different than the official line. Apparently (as told by the victims) the group was all of a sudden let go after the attackers received a phone call, all 19 in one vehicle (the other three being taken by the ambushers), and drove some 200 miles north to the Egyptian border. They finally met some Egyptian military around Eight Bells... Clearly there was no military action whatsoever. The complete lack of any official statement from Germany, plus the circumstances of the release strongly suggests that a ransom was paid. :(

At the moment it is very questionable whether we may believe any of the Sudanese and Egyptian statements regarding gun battles and casualties.

As it is the Eid now following the end of Ramadan with Egypt practically shut down, I don't expect to have any info on the future of travel to the region until next week.

Fair enough.

last thought on this one...
 

Just one last thought - if a ransom was paid, which certainly seems more likely as the story becomes clearer (the Italian Govt are notorious for paying ransoms...) then the Gilf problem is far from sorted...

While the Egyptians may well have wanted to give the impression that they don't put up with any of that sort of thing, it's becoming more probable that on this occasion cash changed hands, and that will only encourage others!
Tony
:thumbdown:

It looks like there are at least 2 possibilities:
1) ransom was paid, call came through to the bandits to confirm and the 19 were set free to make their own way back to Egypt. 19 in a car - hellava way to see the Libyan desert!

2) car with bandits was shot up whilst off fetching water/food/fuel/ransom, call came through to the rest of the bandits to confirm the hit and the 19 were set free as a result.

The tourists may not actually know which of these happened. Some reports say there were 40 or more bandits. But if the tourists can confirm that one car was away at the time, along with 4-6 bandits, then (2) may have happened.

Neither of these events makes for a particularly safe Gilf. The key driver is the instability in the Sudan/Chad region. This, coupled with the knowledge that tourists/vehicles/money are up for grabs in southern Egypt, makes it unlikely that this is the last episode. Some of the 40 youngsters involved will probably be plotting another hit - with all the lessons learnt. On the other hand, Egypt may want to deploy a presence along the remote southern border and equip the $100 per day soldier-lad that has to come along with more than a sun hat.

One of the best reports so far:
‘I thought this was the end’ - The National Newspaper

What's the update?
 

Are there any details about the kidnappings which have emerged in recent weeks? After the 2003 kidnappings in Algeria were over, a load of detail was released. While most of this was interesting, especially to people who travel in the Sahara, it was strategically important in being able to figure out what the risks were to future travel in the region. So I'm wondering if anyone has detail on how well set-up the bandits were, what kind of resouces they had to hand in N Sudan, what the leadership was like and so on.

TV interview
 

Few points about the bandits from the story of Mr. Ibrahim guide and owner of tourism company on an interview to local TV channel in Egypt :

- they were about 40 of them
- some of them were of young age around 15 years old
- he felt they were kind of naive and not professional at all .
- they speak very few Arabic words and one traveler said their mother tongue sounds like something he heard from Tawarg in other parts of the Sahara
- they are not religiously fanatics and just after the money
- they work in these gangs for maybe 100 $ a month and there is nothing to do except work for these gangs in their home .
- near the end they wanted to go home to attend the feast after Ramadan

a personal impression I got that Mr. Ibrahim has done very good job in dealing with them and managed to send gps coordinates of their location many times during communications with authorities .

at the end the 19 kidnapped got into one land cruiser and traveled 300 or more km to Egypt border without a spare tire .

latest news the area is now open for travel and permits are given as usual , some reports say now there are permanent check points in the Gilf kebir area !

Mahmoud Mohareb

Hello all,

While the situation in N Mali and Mauri seems to deteriorate, I am glad to report that the area of Al Uwainat and south of Gilf Kebir in Egypt's Western Desert appears to be a bit calmer than last year.

Two weeks ago we returned from a trip there. Apart from the usual smuggling activity, there's not much to report on the security front.

It could be because the Egyptan army has started monitoring activities in that area. There are now two army outposts (one at N 22.13643°, E 25.80658 °, and another near Karkur Talh at N 22.00028°, E 25.28928 °). The army even allowed us to spend a night inside Karkur Talh, something considered quite risky last year.

But it could be also down to the fact that we were one of the very first groups travelling in the Western Desert this autumn. Maybe the guys having their bases in Chad haven't started the hunting season yet.

The officer at one of the posts event told us that the army was sending from the north a dozen cars to patrol the borded area, so if we see a fleet of cars heading our way we should stop and say hello rather than run away. Luckily, we never never had a chance to be faced with such a hard decision.

While army presence south of Gilf Kebir is rather unprecedented, it should not be taken too seriously. From what we saw , this is a rather feeble attempt by the Egyptians to control their southern border.

Uweinat / Gilf Update
 

Just returned myself from Uweinat, the area around the mountain was pretty quiet, the closeness of the checkpoint apparently does dampen illicit activity there. Few signs of visitors, apparently most operators are still concerned about going that close to Sudan. (Trip account will be up on my website soon, the name of which I dare not utter here...)

I did feel uncomfortable around Wadi Sora though (no Egyptian military presence there), plenty of smuggler tracks and we saw several single vehicle tracks with XS pattern - definitely not friendly patrols...

The post near Uweinat has two (!) vehicles, so definitely no serious patroling out there. I would not reccommend driving up to any unknown vehicles - better to stay on the shady side of the street. Did hear of a rumor that the army did shoot up one toiurist vehicle which fled, having not recognised that the 'pursuers' were the army. Fortunately no injuries...

All in all, looks quiet, but still a lot of tension and edginess from the side of the authorities, probably not totally without reason ...

Hi Andras,

Glad to hear you had a safe trip, too.

The operators would say there's not enough people willing to risk going there ...

We also did see same zig-zagging tracks, and between the Clayton Crater and Wadi Sora, about 40km north of the Aquaba Pass, we found abandoned personal belongings, possibly by robbers who chucked away what they had no use for. Another, rather curious, find in that area was a great many empty 1/2 litre water bottles.


When we were there they had only one, and it even wasn't running. I was wondering if the empty barrells along the piste were laid down by the smugglers to help the soliders stay on track :-)

Did you meet Herr Doctor Rudolph Kuper, occupying the Foggini Cave with his team? The way he had their camp set up near the cave made them a bit exposed and vulnerable, so we are wondering if he later moved it or just decided he was perfectly safe in his ivory tower.

You saw the traces of the refugee smugglers - the Western Gilf has become one of the main throughfares for smuggling people - mainy Somali & Eritreans - to Italy. The Libyans have stepped up their patroling (the EU gave them heaps of money to do so), so the trade shifted east where there is no control whatsoever. Possibly the kidnappings and robberies were a 'portfolio diversification' from this unscrupulous lot.

Met Rudolph in Dakhla on our way out, the team was gone by the time we passed by, but all fine from what I've heared.