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Desert Biking with a PDA and GPS
Hi. It is possible now to have a PDA (palm or Pocket PC) with scanned maps (from CDs like you can get from Darr and Touratech) stored on the device. Then connect your GPS and you have a position shown on the map on the screen. It would mount on a bike like a GPS. I have seen PDA weatherproof cases, and even rugged PDAs.
General Questions Do you think this would be USEFUL? Has anyone tried it? Would the small screen resoulution be good enough? Would the processing power be enough (eg for zooming) How much memory is needed for the maps? ok now DISCUSS!! thanks Karim karim@desertbiking.co.uk www.desertbiking.co.uk ------------------ karim@desertbiking.co.uk www.desertbiking.co.uk |
Hello! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif
I also want to know if anyone has done this. I know there is software available (Path-Away and DigiMap), and there are pages of cables and brackets in the TTech catalogue. (There have been similar threads to this in the Comms forum, but I don't think a proper answer has been arrived at yet. ...but is this stuff OK for proper desert use, not just hobby use in Germany? http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/wink.gif My PDA has a 320x320 pixel colour screen, and 128MB of removable memory, so surely it must be enough? It's fine for uploading digital phots and zooming / editing them... I will be watching this one. |
That’s exactly what I plan to do on my bike when I finish building it. I’ve tested all the components for this navigation system and have it working but haven’t been able to use it on a bike extensively.
What I did is put a Compaq PDA in an Otter Armor box for protection and mounted it right next to my old Garmin II+ which will get a TT mount instead of the flimsy plastic one it now sits in. I made a very short com cable to connect the two. I’ve decided to use a regular GPS instead of the dedicated PDA GPS since it’ll be a good backup. The antenna only PDA GPS receivers have no controls or display so they’re totally depended on the PDA for operations. If anything happens to the PDA or it’s DATA you’re screwed. Remember, you’re running MS Windows after all J. The only problem I faced was with the PDA screen glare. This will depend greatly on your mounting position but with some sort of hood and cleaver mounting I think this could be avoided. I’ll spend more time on this when my bike is ready. Useful? I think so. I tend to go somewhere and explore rather than travel from point A to point B so I prefer to have as much maps and info as possible with me. A PDA will help you carry lots of maps (memory permitting) and it can also store other info in form of text and pictures. It’s also a great journal although a bit awkward to write with. Resolution? It’s a bit on the small side but it’s still a lot better than any bike mountable GPS unit out there. If you get a recent model with a lot of memory it will handle displaying and zooming maps pretty well. But don’t expect desktop performance. The screens of the PDA units differ greatly and not all can display a good picture in the sun so make sure you try the one you like outdoors in the sun before you buy it. How much memory will depend on the maps you’ll carry + 64 MB for the operating system and navigation application. I would say the very minimum is 128MB. However a better guide to how much memory you’ll need it to actually compile the maps you plan to take along, crop them, reduce the number of colors, convert them to a compressed format that is still readable by the navigation software an see how much that ended up to be. To save memory, take only the maps you’ll actually need. If you’re traveling 600km on a paved road then no need to load up the PDA with the surrounding topo maps. I’ve seen rugged PDA ads in a couple of magazines. They look cool but they’re more expensive, much bulkier and usually less speced than regular models. I use my PDA at work on daily basis so I cannot lug this thing around; it defies the purpose. However if I were getting a PDA strictly for travel then I would definitely get a rugged one. Hope this helps. ------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. |
Actually, Garmin now makes their own PDA/GPS device that uses PalmOS and can accept expandable SD memory cards. You also get a voice recorder, mp3 player and all the other goodies that PalmPilots have to offer. If you ask me, that's about the nicest gadget you could ask for short of also having a sat-phone built in. I would think that's much more handy than toting around two devices and having to wire both of them up.
Only problem is that you'd need to figure out a way to wire it to your bike with the supplied charging device since it uses Lithium Ion batteries. Maybe that's trivial, I just don't know what considerations there are in wiring that particular device to run on aux power. Here's a link: http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600/ Cheers, Wright ------------------ Wright Bagwell http://www.geocities.com/wwbagwell/ |
I've started experimenting with an iPAQ and a GPS external receiver in my Patrol and it works well. I use everybody's favourite OziExplorer with satellite images downloaded from the NASA public domain site (I'll dig out the URL for it) and it works well. Be aware though that these maps take up HEAPS of room, so you will need loads of additional storage. I'm looking around for an expansion pack at the moment which can take Compact Flash memory cards to do this - not easy to come by in the UAE.
As AB said, the major issue is screen glare. Another issue (also already touched upon) is wiring it into the battery - less of an issue in a 4x4 I know, but still I dislike using the cigarette lighter socket in the vehicle for this. AB is right to say use an additional GPS as well. I personally find the navigation views of OziExplorer CE less than brilliant, but them I'm a newbie with it and I'm sure I'll get used to it! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/wink.gif It's always wise to have a back-up for the primary device. I still keep my Garmin 128 in the car - 'just for reassurance'. The plusses of using this technology are numerous. I can surf the net with it when I can find a phone signal (here in the Emirates our GPRS phone coverage is magnificent). You can process your E-Mail on the move this way as well. I can use all the other functions of a PDA as well, so it's uses are only limited by your imagination. Good luck with it. ------------------ Jon Harbour Middle East Off-Roader http://www.mid-east-off-road.com |
Hi all,
I need some convincing that personal computer technology of today is robust enough to entrust one’s life to it. After all, for the applications described above think of it as a life support system. Even electronic component manufacturers normally warn you against the use of their products in LS systems without their express approval. So why do we want to take chances with PDA’s which are hardly reliable enough to store a telephone directory? I’ve been thinking of various options, too, and decided I will be better off by using disposable computing rather than an expensive and hard-to-replace special purpose PC, which after all is only a little better than a high street gizmo. Data storage is cheap, and a few solid state disks to duplicate the OS and data don’t take much space. A one or two spare PDA’s (or a PC’s in a 4x4 vehicle) bought second-hand for a few quid will possibly last longer than an expensive, all singing-all-dancing latest model. What do you think? Jon, checking email on the move? I thought we go to the Sahara to get away from emails and all that IT barrage , but perhaps I got it wrong ... Rgds, Roman (UK) |
I think everyone is in agreement that no-one is going to trust their lives to a PDA, The principle here (in my view)is to discuss the USEFULLNESS of the device. For desertbiking in remote areas, most navigation uses back checking where you think you are with a GPS and map/routes etc (to help). I think traditional navigation methods are a priority.
IF you intend to DEPEND on it I believe you must have 2 of everything plus a satellite phone (or 2!)with (previously arranged)the ability for a rescue, but usually you dont need all this when you have 2 vehicles as a minimum in the group. I think the usefullness in the PDA kit comes from carrying more maps at various scales /resoltions, quick access to approximate positions. overlay of GPS routes/options. saving/managing GPS routes and data/backup. generally as a 'nice to have'. These days alot of people might have one ANYWAY on their trip, so whay not take some advantage from it. OK great contributions so far!! Karim Email might be nice when in towns and to help oragnise the usual bureaucracies of travel. Email via satellite phone seems expensive. They can send text easily enough though. ------------------ karim@desertbiking.co.uk www.desertbiking.co.uk |
Hi,
just to inform there is another way of handling data-storage : I plan for my panamaricana-trip to use a combination of Garmin V with a sub-notebook. For example a Toshiba PORTÉGÉ 3010CT, size 257 x 216 x 19,8 mm x 1.3 kg http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...category=18536 . Around 6Gb of storage capacity should be sufficient to save all required maps. Advantage as well : trip reports etc. can be done on a normal keyboard... cheers, Gijs |
Jon, you can get around large files by cutting them to smaller maps and take only the ones covering the area you plan to explore. Even if you still take them all along, storage permitting, opening and manipulating smaller maps will be faster and more responsive and will require less RAM to operate.
Roman, even though I’m building this navigation system for my bike, and I have a PC based one in my Jeep, I’m not convinced either that you can trust them with your life. That’s why I still use my regular GPS and mark my waypoint on it before I do on the PC. So I would say go for it but keep your current navigation setup up and running and actually use it to store critical waypoints. It wouldn’t do you any good if you get it out of the pannier in the middle of the desert after your PDA system failed and it has no points on it http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif. Also I think that newer technology is almost always more reliable than old one. Take a look for example to hard disk, the most problematic of all since it contains sensitive and easily damaged moving parts: You will notice that the shock tolerance, sometimes written on the unit itself, is always improving. That means newer hard disks will withstand vibration betteJon, you can get around large files by cutting them to smaller maps and take only the ones covering the area you plan to explore. Even if you still take them all along, storage permitting, opening and manipulating smaller maps will be faster and more responsive and will require less RAM to operate. Roman, even though I’m building this navigation system for my bike, and I have a PC based one in my Jeep, I’m not convinced either that you can trust them with your life. That’s why I still use my regular GPS and mark my waypoint on it before I do on the PC. So I would say go for it but keep your current navigation setup up and running and actually use it to store critical waypoints. It wouldn’t do you any good if you get it out of the pannier in the middle of the desert after your PDA system failed and it has no points on it http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif. Also I think that newer technology is almost always more reliable than old one. Take a look for example to hard disk, the most problematic of all since it contains sensitive and easily damaged moving parts: You will notice that the shock tolerance, sometimes written on the unit itself, is always improving. That means newer hard disks will withstand vibration better than old ones. A PDA is even much more reliable since it has no moving parts whatsoever. r than old ones. A PDA is even much more reliable since it has no moving parts whatsoever. ------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. |
I have used the NAVMAN jacket on an IPAQ - in a 4X4 and the screen is fine in a vehicle but I can't comment on a bike. The GPS is not as reliable as my Garmin. The onboard software was better though. If your looking for a rugedised PDA try some surveying manufactors. I work for Topcon and we produce a fully rugedised WinCE device with a reflective screen - That means it gets better the brighter the sun is! They are more expensive and most tend to also have a keyboard. They cost around £1400 though, but stand up to construction site abuse. Sunscreen also make one but thats probably too big. Trimble make one too. If you need any help post a reply or check out some surveying press.
Ian |
This is something I've also mulled over for quite a while now; as a gadget fan it's possible to find a dozen arguments to go this route.
I agree with Karim in that traditional navigation is indispensable, and then one can confirm a dead reckoned position with GPS.I don't think sophisticated mapping features are as essential when away from population centres, but I really like the idea of being able to scan and calibrate a tourist office map of an unknown town or city and use that in the PDA/GPS unit to be free to wander around without a guide. I just can't find those little old fashioned handheld scanners, flatbeds are too big. Considering I intend to take along a PC the extra expense of an up to date PDA is difficult to justify, after all it's the same price as a decent Engel fridge. I stumbled across www.pocketgps.co.uk while researching the options. Here's to wondering where the hell I am, even though I know my GPS position. Luke er, shouldn't this be in the "Navigation - Maps,Compass,GPS" section of this excellent BB? |
Hi!
Karim, what are the rescue options in sahara? i'm planing a trip,so how do i prearange a posible rescue? with who?who and how is going to pay the expences.is there some kind of 'incurance' or one has to have friends who can organise a rescue? I'm sure that no one wants to exprirance what you been trough some time ago in Mauretanie. ------------------ cheers jondoe |
Hi
I dont have experience of this. Chris Scott knows alot more, and he talked about it at his last slide show at Ernies. I think it depends which country youre in and whats available. Places like Tunisia have well organised Emergency services which include a helicopter at 20 Euros per min. also there we called a 4WD ambulance to the dunes near Tozeur and they came quickly and cost nothing. cheers Karim ------------------ karim@desertbiking.co.uk www.desertbiking.co.uk |
AB,
You're absolutely right - you can reduce the map file sizes by selecting less zoom levels and cutting it into smaller packages. The satellite image maps I used were taken from a NASA website (now where is that URL) and essentially cover the UAE, most of Saudi Arabia and Oman, plus swathes of Iran. They have been calibrated for OziExplorer and work brilliantly. I used the default settings for converting to OziCE format and these produced the bloated file sizes. Having said that, they would be a much more compact way of storing all your map data tha physically carrying the maps. If you buy one of the expansion packs (such as the PCMCIA card expansion units), you can add additional memory to the unit. This gets around the large file size problem by the good old-fashioned 'throw money and hardware at the problem' method. You can get used to the screen glare and it won't be that much of a hassle - I was able to read the GPS info and the map and navigate from my iPAQ on the move across the dunes in the UAE without too much of a problem really. The issue then becomes one of how to ensure that the unit itself is sufficiently protected from damage / dust and that it remains charged up enough. In a vehicle this is not a massive problem. On a bike though... could be a 'challenge'. I've got no desert biking experience myself, so I cannot give you any help with that part of the question! ------------------ Jon Harbour Middle East Off-Roader http://www.mid-east-off-road.com |
By the way Roman, I agree that mostly you want to get away from E-Mail and IT barrage etc., but there are times when it could be useful or even life-saving. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif
Also, I run an informal 4x4 owners club in the UAE and sometimes it helps to see what's going on on the web site! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/wink.gif ------------------ Jon Harbour Middle East Off-Roader http://www.mid-east-off-road.com |
I was wondering if the PDA has a screen rotate function. ie so you can mount it horizontally and see the test the right way up. I was thing on a bike it could go inside the road book holder. (which alot of people have these days)
Karim |
http://www.mobipocket.com/en/Downloa....asp?feature=3
http://bestpocketpda.com/modules.php...article&sid=15 ...but only for CE, not Palm OS. [This message has been edited by POB/London (edited 28 April 2003).] |
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Road book holder! That’s an idea. The couple of PDA units I used over the past either had no rotate function or had it but didn’t work properly. I’ve heard of a software solution for this but never tried it. There are horizontal PDA units but you sort of open them up like the Nokia Communicator with a keyboard in the lower part. Not sure if this would fit.
In any case, if you place the unit inside the road book holder then you won’t be able to give it any commands. ------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. |
You might want to look at RAM Mounts from the USA. They will certainly have a robust system for mounting a PDA to a motorbike along and may even have a suitable cable for running off the battery.
------------------ Jon Harbour Middle East 4x4 |
Hi
I use a RAM mount for my GPS, they are really good.(solid/rubber mounted/can contort into tons of positions) they fit touratech mounts for GPS's perfectly. They would be good for a PDA too. The otter boxes look good, even have a cable outlet possible. OK, for those who dont have a PDA/GPS system could we recommend a good setup? including software (TT/QV/Ozietc etc) I am guessing the list would look something like PDA 12V power cable PDA to GPS data cable Protective enclosure and mount system GPS( with 12V cable and mount) Mapping software for both PC and PDA (what is agreed best) Digital Maps/ Sattelite Images etc (format?)(editing software?) Karim |
Extra things:
I also saw a GPS with bluetooth, this could be nice. Since alot of PDA's can have this. means one less wire... Also need to add to the list Memory Expansion (CF or SM?)(how much) PDA mains adaptor for programming at home Ok I better go back to work now, they'll kill me... Karim |
Surely, by mounting the PDA onto the bike you're asking for trouble? Reading the bike instruments and a GPS is hard enough! Why not keep the PDA stored (in a forearm pocket of a rallye jacket, in a map pocket, or in one of these things) and "dock" your electronics only when you need to? We all know that unnecessary complications always end in trouble....
http://www.aquapac.net/ukstore/image...ssic_large.jpg |
Hi all,
RAM products are now available in the UK from http://www.gpsw.co.uk/acatalog/GPS_C...ucts___22.html I mentioned it already elsewhere - I use a PSION V. It has a bigger (albeit not clearer) screen than a PDA and costs a fraction of the price second-hand. In my LC, apart from a Garmin GPS128, I also have a Garmin TracPac LP35 GPS - it's a two channel receiver the size of an active antenna. It provides all the signal to the moving map applications, so no GPS interface is needed. On a bike it'd would be just as good an idea, provided you can ensure your PDA is bullet-proof. If you lose it, gone is your GPS just as well - no way to read your position and relate to a paper map. I have a PC and Psion and a full-fledged GPS receiver, so there's no need to worry about that. Also, to interface the various devices, copy data, waypoints & logs between them or connect other external receivers, I've created a custom breakout box. A rough idea is presented here: http://www.eh71.dial.pipex.com/_land..._interface.pdf Rgds, Roman (UK) |
If you were to go with a PDA GPS sleeve, such as the Navman unit, you can use it handheld as well with no need for a cable to link to the GPS. You can still run a 12V cable to the battery to provide charging, in fact you will need to do so.
The set up I use in my Patrol is: iPAQ 3970 (Bluetooth) Tom-Tom Navigator GPS receiver (I don't have need for handheld GPS) OziExplorer CE (I found out elsewhere today that this offers voice prompts for route navigation! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/biggrin.gif) 256MB SD RAM card. RAM iPAQ Mount Planned additions are a dual slot CF expansion pack, more memory in the form of a 1GB CF card The RAM mount works brilliantly - I've tested it up and over the dunes in the UAE and across some nasty corrugations in a Wadi near the Oman border. ------------------ Jon Harbour Middle East 4x4 |
Holy Moly, you guys sure know a lot of techy stuff! I'm amazed its taken 25 replies for someone to cordially opine "No, it would not be useful on a bike - in fact it would be dangerous to try and read it while riding off road". Even the Dak riders use a super-clear printed paper rolling 'maps'.
In a car with a pax to read a laptop I've seen it done - you can watch yourself move across the screen but I do believe there is a danger of inadvertantly driving up someones (or even your own) exhaust pipe. In the real world of Sahara travel - even off piste - how vital is it to know where you are on a map every second? In my experience, never. I have a distant destination/waypoint and I drive or ride as the terrain permits towards that point or just explore a small area. What is needed for desert navigation? Knowledge of where you are + which way to go - and perhaps a means of storing where you've been for later. Can anyone honestly say that it is easier and faster to read a scanned map off a PDA screen that an original paper version? And even as a back-up to conventional paper nav - I still have not read above a real world use of a PDA that cannot be done by Ozifying your route directly off the GPS once you get home? With all this IT catching on, years ago the publisher DK tried to reinvent the paper guidebook by developing PDA-like readers for CDs or whatever. Plan was you'd walk around Venice with your digital reader - zooming in on this and that with commentaries, etc - until some Balkanian ne'er-do-well grabed it off you or the battery failed. DK went bust trying to be too clever. Fact is, it may not be sexy but one cannot beat the printed paper format - be it book or map - for fast access to information on cheap and reliable media. Even among fellow Rough Guiders - where you'd think a laptop while updating on the road would save a lot of time - carrying one is rare for all the usual reasons. We update on print outs and translate to a computer once in a stable environment. Keep it simple, reliable and enjoy the desert for what it is - an all round wilderness Chris S |
i thoroughly agree with mr scott. not only are maps and books generally more reliable, they don't suffer from rough handling, dust, dirt, damp or theft. also, if you need something to put under the side stand of your bike when parking in the mud or sand, you can consider your looney planot africa guide. it isn't useful for anything else.
cheers ChrisB [This message has been edited by chris (edited 09 May 2003).] |
... and, finally, can you swat a fly with a PDA?
Rgds, Roman (UK) |
depends on the size of the fly.
CB |
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