Why are Toyota's best?
 

What I mean is, brand loyalty aside, why is it that Landcruiser's and Hilux's seem hold together better than anything else? What is it that keeps them from rattling apart after decades of third-world real-world abuse that would relegate other makes to the scrap heap?

Did Toyota use a different method of fastening on the bodies and bits, heavier frames, better bolts, or what? I used to think all Japanese makes are about the same, but from what I've read and experienced, Toyota's seem to always come out on top when the going gets--and stays--hard.

I know the Landcruisers are heavy duty, but the Hiluxs are pretty basic, so why are they 'better' than (or should I say why do they have a better reputation than) Mitsubishi's, Isuzu's, or Nissan's, for example? I wonder if it's hype or truth...

It's an interesting question! Not another toyo Vs L/R...
We have bought over the last 5-6 years probably 20+ Nissan D22 pickups. The South African built one ("Hardbody") falls apart much much faster than the Japanese built one. I asked a similar question to a CAT dealer engineer with 20 years experience and he said the same thing - a ZA built 140G grader is much less solid and tends to suffer metal fatigue much faster than the Jap built one. He reckoned steel quality had a lot to do with it. We found that Nissan tend to have really strong drive trains and engines, but bodies and suspension not as long lasting as Toyo. Toyo are not invulnerable though! The gearbox synchromesh particularly on 1st and 2nd tend to go pretty fast, injection pumps can wear quite quickly too, but apart from that they do tend to last.
We change the D22 pickups after 2 years, and by that time they are pretty shot. Landcruisers we change at 4 years, and still are in pretty good shape. But really I don't know for sure why!
Gil

Why are Toyota's best?
 

Reliability.

Because in the early 1980's Toyota mass produced and then sold on at a vastly reduced cost about 3 million of the flatbed trucks, they discovered that they could make more money in the long run selling parts to the 3mill+ then in the short run by having expensive products, this was then a mindbender as it hadn't been done before.

This mind set won them Most of SE/Asia, Africa, South America who imported vast numbers of the trucks along with the spares that they would need. That's why they are the MOST COMMON truck in the world, I've seen them everywhere and in every state of disrepair that you can imagine, mostly farmers and warlords have the worst examples.

Now if only Land Rover or Hummer had that foresight, I did this marketing model at Uni business studies, very very effective.

Maybe true, but whether their truck marketing was very successful or not how do you explain their amazing penetration of the 4x4 market. Including markets where there is practically bugger all 'marketing' media. The marketing issue (i.e. people saying Toyo's success is because of marketing) might be valid in more developed places, but I reckon it still is not the real explanation as to why Toyos are perceived to be better!! There does seem to be a genuine longevity issue which explains why a hard bitten desert taxi operator is rattlling around in a 60 series and not a Mitsu/Isuz etc. They do tend to be valued other all others by those that really need longevity and reliability. It can't only be a price thing as the landcruiser 79 pickup is way more expensive than say a D22 - not surprisingly.
Gil

Sighs, The Flat Beds I was refering to are the 4x4s. HILux etc are the modern versions, same as the OZ 'ut' (Utility) the new ones have the interchangble cargo pods. If it has a cab connected to a flat bed and can pull sh*t loads then it's a flat bed truck isn't it, my god was that such a stretch of the imagination?



They sell them cheap on average (todays prices), HILux as an example
Thailand £5,000 + extras
Cambodia £4,250 + extras
UK £11,000 + extras
Don't know about Africa

If you ever get to travel to SE/Asia you will see the bill boards 100 feet hi with the adverts, if you drive down any road you will see loads and loads of shops selling tires, bull bars, bed conversions and my favorite spares.

If stolen bikes coming from Japan end up in Thailand/Cambodia where do you think the stolen 4x4s from Thailand/Cambodia/Malyasia/Oz and the USA end up? Maybe Africa by chance! didn't you ever notice how in the African Toyota's in the BBC the news items are older versions?


As for longevity, the EU is cold and wet and corrosion is rife due to the gritting over the winter, whereas in the hotter climates there's a lot less rust so the bodies last longer again it isn't rocket science, Just the Shocks tend to go due to the bad roads and overloading.

oi oi oi
 

I am not going to mix in this discussion, no I am not, am not not not......

damn,

Toyota are simply better.... na nana na na ....

cheers,

Noel
exploreafrica.web-log.nl

I don't have much experience of working on LRs, but working on an 80 series LC last year with the owner who used to be a dedicated LR owner he raised a number of points.

The main gist of comparing all the key components like hubs, diffs, etc on his 80 series to his last Discovery (series II I think) was that the LC had much more heavy duty components that were better thought through and better quality.

I think this is borne out in the reliability side of things and that LC need less protection and fettling than LRs.

It is probably why LCs have out sold LRs 20 times around the world
:thumbup1:

Juddadred,
sorry if I came across too strong in questioning your marketing theory - not my intention, I only wanted to know how the marketing issue holds up in areas where there is little or no marketing.
BTW:
-World's best ever selling "truck" or p/up is Ford F-Series pickups
-Hilux light duty 4x4 pickup on sale since 1969 under the name Hilux, there was no real light duty 4x4 prior to the Hilux, the Landcruiser (heavier duty) was really named (at least) in 1954, although it's origins were WWII. So I don't really know what you mean when you say that Hilux are the modern ones?
- I suspect you are referring to 75 and 79 series pickups (landcruisers) when you talk about "older" ones. Easy done as they do look old fashioned due to having the same body style for 23 years almost without change. Easy to confuse the models in Africa if you are watching the BBC - easier to ID in the flesh so to speak.

Landrover had an even better earlier marketing model - called the British Empire... and they still dropped the ball!

Hummer doing just fine with their marketing model - if you want to follow celebs/rappers and the US Army that is :-)

Cheers,
Gil
(tongue firmly in cheek and not trying at all to be rude)

Forgot to add that Julian and Noel are right of course!!! But seriously, pull the half shaft on a Landcruiser and put it next to one from a Defender and see!

So it comes down to design, components, engineering, and assembly and in that case, I think the Patrol/Safari and Landcruiser are pretty much on par with each other.

But where does that leave the Defender--how much less durable (for lack of a better term) is it really? I know Defender defenders love their Defenders, and probably for good reason. But what are some of those reasons (beyond patriotism)?

If you must really get there on time get a Toy.
If you wanna enjoy every inch of a trip with no specific destination get a real L.R.

Real Land Rovers are not made for slaves of time


Fair winds and following seas (or sands) !

I have never owned a 4x4 but did work in the automotive industry for 8 years supplying assembly equipment to all the major manufacturers.

Two major factors.....
Quality Control
Quality of Components

The Japanese seem better at this than Europeans. The Europeans have automated Quality control trusting feedback from production machines. The operators who assemble your cars are always finding ways to cheat the processes. The Japanese also seem better at motivating staff, even in UK based plants.

The body on a LR Discovery is held on by about 20 'self tapping' bolts !!!!

OR...

If you want to go overlanding take a LR.

If you want to make it back in one peice, go in a Toyota :clap:

Some reasons:
They are durable vehicles, but need a degree of pampering, concern and spanner work. They also have a certain look and image that the Jap wagons don't really have - IMHO this applies to a lot of really well engineered Japanese cars that just don't have the design aspect as well sorted as Euro/Brit cars. They are also easily understood by DIY/Bush mechanics. Also a huge range of spares/aftermarket stuff available, particularly in the UK, whereas a lot of Toyo stuff doesn't really exist in the UK or is very expensive and imported (often from Oz). They are also easier to modify, drill and prepare. The expertise (particularly in UK) is more available when it comes to spannering and modification.

misquoted
 

[QUOTE=armadillo;171728]If you must really get there on time get a Toy.
If you wanna enjoy every inch of a trip with no specific destination get a real L.R.

The correct quote is;

If you want to go into the bush, take a Landrover
If you want to come back again, take a Landcruiser

(Australian wisdom)

Cheers,

Noel
exploreafrica.web-log.nl

If you wanna enjoy every inch of a trip with no specific destination get a real L.R.


I've never quite understood why people are so attached to Land Rovers, but I guess there is an element of fun in driving a car which leaks oil from every seal and needs to be fettled at every stage by a squad of bush mechanics with nothing more than hammers and duck tape. That's the fun of the Mongol Rally, after all, right?

You guys!

I just posted this on the Land Rover forum. With your addresses :D

Always fun to see what the other half think. I do however, have a troopie on my list of additions to the fleet :)

Nick.

I know the thread isn't a Toyo v LR thread but it's always going to steer that way-

I wouldn't take a landrover on an overland expedition - but I would take MY landRover though, which is another story - I have prepared it, modified it, upgraded certain bits, dumped other bits, drilled holes, cut panels, added various bits to get it just the way I like it. They lend themselves very well to that, and yup, certain bits do tend to break with regularity, but I know what they are and they can be fixed quick at the side of a road. To be honest some of the best laughs I've had on a trip have been while fixing something, so all part of the fun for me and gives a sense of achievement if I manage to nurse the thing through several countries like a crash landing B16.

I'm sure a LC would be the more capable long range reliable overlander straight out of the box, no doubt built better, using better fixings and some of the mechanical bits will be chunkier. I'd say they are built with the purpose in mind and for harsh environments, whereas a LR is a farmers runabout/tool that can also pull off a few other party tricks.

Swinging back to the original point of the thread, it is interesting to analyse which bits really make the difference though, and worth bearing in mind when you're buying replacement parts.

durability against rattling
 

Apart from for example half shaft and other parts which may be a bit beefier design than other cars, the original question was why Toyota's do not rattle apart, or less then other cars.

I think the answer may be that practically all bolts and nuts which matter on Toyota's have fine thread in stead of standard thread. The finer the thread, the higher the loosening friction of the bolt which is a good remedy against loosening due to rattling (think e.g. about wheelnuts, they are practically always fine thread because there it matters)

How is that on e.g. Landrovers, do they use fine threaded bolts and nuts on critical connections?

cheers,
Noel
www.exploreafrica.web-log.nl
DVD "Crossing Africa" available
Book soon to be available

Toyota's?
 

I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that as a statement of fact on present Toyota products. But then I would (see my profile).:smartass:


Certainly a 1991 Hilux I had from new was basic (in a good way) and excellent build quality where it mattered. No doubt it’s rotted in to the ground by now though!

I would hold 1990 through to maybe 97 Toyota’s in high esteem but having been in a company that has run Toyota’s as it’s fleet since around 2000 MHO would be that they have followed some European high end manufactures by cramming ever more “value” in to their vehicles.

By that I mean ever more built down to a price complexity.

A case in point being a friend who owns both a LC and a 2005 Range Rover.

He has recently traded his previous 2006 LC which he had owned for around 8 months before convincing himself that the number of expensive issues with it must have meant it had been clocked (despite it having a full dealer history) when he bought it.
£500 for a wiper motor
£2,500 for new injectors
£1,400 for a 60K service to name a few.
He traded it for an 11 month old LC at a Toyota dealer (less than half price BTW, so much for residuals)
Result. It needs new injectors at £2,500 with less than 30K miles on it!! Warranty claim of course. Interestingly the Toyota dealer managed to look utterly surprised by this and to claim it was something he had never heard of (despite having changed the ones on his previous LC a matter of months earlier) They had the same reaction to a known (and extremely expensive fault) on my 2006 Avensis!! Oh and a work colleague who bought his lease Avensis and ended up with parting with £2K+ of his own money when the steering rack failed.

His 4 year old RR? Front diff. replaced FOC by LR at 3yrs/80K miles and out of warranty plus an intermittent problem with one of the ABS sensors’ and that’s it. Now at about 90K.


So I could of bought 2 1990’s LC and ended up with far better cars for the sort of money my friends pampered (never off roaded) LC’s have cost him.

And I certainly wouldn’t hesitate to part with my own money on an 80 series LC, anything newer? Maybe not

Another vote for the Toyota Hilux - 2 door with Truckman top + a few mods. but then I am biased- I have one. Heartily recommended by me :smartass:

And if ever you had a doubt...
consider how many thousands upon thousands of freedom fighters drive one, seriously overloaded, probably seldom serviced, often shot at, rolled down mountain gullies and canyons, drowned etc etc etc then one of these gets into the hands a certain person (who really needs a haircut!) at Top Gear who tries to kill one deliberately...to no avail.
The 2 door Hilux pickup (compared to it's big brother, the L.C.) is lighter, has huge load carrying capacity, simpler, drinks far less and costs way less to buy, own and service . I've never regretted buying mine.

my 2cents :Beach:

Rolled down mountain gullies can sum up some Hiluxes, in South Africa they have a reputation for being rolled on dirt roads whereas the LCs don't.

Would love to convert to Toyotas but can't afford one that would do what my 200tdi 110 does and can't seem to kill it.

Well I would dearly like to add some thing new and refreshing to this thread, but it looks like most points may have been covered already.
-
I just hope my LC continues to be as reliable tomorrow as it has been from the day it was manufactured 4 years ago.:thumbup1:
-
It's looking good so far.

HI I admit I am a landrover fan but I did not buy the new 70 series V8 because it has a reputation here in NZ of chewing the engines and gearboxes ( a mining company has had to replaqe 5 out of 10 engines in less than 15 months)and it was only 5 seats
THey area good product and deserve their reputation but will break just like anything else when pushed espically when drive Africian style!!! or Mayalasian style where I have seen them fall apart!!!!! ( not be used correctly, overloaded etc which is a common theme in the third world)
all vechiles will break when pushed I quote from an Africain guy who has experience:
"A lot of my clients have had huge hassles with modern Nissans, Toyotas, and Mitsubishis. One client in Gabon has been running a fleet of Nissan Patrols, and they are getting a maximum of two years life out of them before they need replacing as they become too unreliable. When they used the old diesel Landcruiser pickups, their replacement time was over 5 years.

Mitsubishi pickups in the Gambia last less than 18 months, but then there's NO preventative maintenance done on them, and the level of maintenance is "dodgy" at best.

Diesel quality is also a serious issue. My clients in Kolwezi, Congo have to transport their diesel by road from Dar-es-Salaam, Tanzania because the diesel available in the Congo screws up their fancy computerised Landcruisers."

Here in New Zeland the roading companies used hi luxes and had warranty issues with toyota saying they were too heavily laden!! but they were 100kg under wieght all the time but there were too many suspension issues so that had to shift to ford rangers, same problem!!!!, they did not have any problems with older nissans
they then brought 27 series 70 v8 landcruiers which could naturally handle the weight problem but had to replace TEN!! engines within a year they would do 400km trips and drink a sumpful of oil!!!
apparently there has been a mod done, rings were not bedding in and the engines were burning oil, so possibly early 2007 v8 have a potentional problem although my friend said toyota just keep the vechile for a "long service" and in tha ttime change out the pistions and new rings etc and do not always tell the customer!!!

Cat/pigeons interface
 

I saw this thread and had to read it... the fact that you put it in the Toyota Tech sections means you will get one-sided answers :)

Ive got a Landy. Ive used TLCs, Nissans, Jeeps, but I stick with Landys out of choice. They go places TLCs wont.

Unreliable? I dunno. My Landy's 20 years old, 250,000 miles, maybe a bit too early to tell if she's unreliable. Certainly no trouble yet. Then there's the 1988 110 I used in Egypt, 15,000 offroad Saharan miles each year, only breakdown was because an Egyptian mechanic swapped the LR ignition coil for a Fiat one and didnt tell me. Then there's the 1992 110 I borrowed in Kenya, she's now on her fourth TransAfrica trip.... etc

Its personal choice, really, IMHO. I read a few books where folks slagged LRs off - and then admitted that their LR wasnt standard - eg a 101 fitted with a Ford truck engine etc. Not the LR's fault - the cr*p mechanic's fault.

There's a lot of mileage in the fact that in the Saharan regions that fell out with the UK (Egypt, Libya) LR has almost died out - but in those states that kept on speaking terms with UK imports (Tunisia, Morocco), LR is going strong.

Speaking personally Ive never had unreliability issues with LRs and Ive used them hard in some really bad terrain in N and E Africa. I know you TLC boys will flame away and take the p*ss but basically it comes down IMHO to TLC - big engine hence good in dunes and on tarmac - LR big articulation hence good in difficult terrain. A lot comes down to driving style as well.

I know this will run and run, that there are entrenched opinions on both sides and if I hadnt had 2 beers I wouldnt bother....!
Someone also said "marketting" above. Thats got a lot to do with it as well.

Though to be fair LR these days sell tart's handbags and mobile boudoirs - but then a mate tells me so do Toyota. The difference being you can still get TLCs and G-Wagens that are true to their roots.

Flame away, Ill see you in the bush! :D

*edit* and by the way - that's "Toyotas" not "Toyota's" - speaking as a teacher ;)

*more edit* speaking frankly the two marques I have had unreliability issues with are Jeeps (transmission) and Suzuki (electronics)

new toyo V* Diesel having problems
 

Toyotas of all generations are well put together using precision manufacturing, IMO Land Rovers don't come close. Some other Japanese manufacturers, on the other hand are under-rated, and perhaps equally as good. But in the end, as its been said before, its down to personal preference and availabilty and repairability of the cars and their spares.