Budget Bikers
 

Steve here, 2 years into a RTW trip on a 2003 XT600, currently in Columbia. There are still a lot of people doing these trips on KLR´s with no complaints. And, while I don´t want to rain on your mechanical party, they were all decent, unpretentious people, an observation I have heard from other bikers.

OK, chief, whatever you say.

As I thought I made very clear in my post, I'm not arguing about what is more likely or not to break down--I'm saying that if an older bike breaks down, chances are good that a shade-tree mechanic in Russia (much less deepest Africa) won't be able to fix it.

only saying that an air head GS is a fairly simple bike to work on. Can only be a few things. Could be something with diode board or stator ... or broken wire somewhere in the harness, bad switch, faulty ground or intermittent short? Been there, taken apart on the side of the road ... in the dark. Coils rarely fail on air heads.

Oh, crystal clear! But wouldn't it depend on what the fault was on the bike? :innocent:
One good thing about common, older bikes is sometimes parts are around or can be borrowed from other bikes. If the fault is a relatively simple one ... a local guy might get lucky, no?

If the piston's seized or it's sucked a valve or you've busted the case ... you're done. But sometimes it's just a blocked jet, torn diaphragm, bad switch, shorted wire, crud in fuel, clogged filter,
bad wheel or steering head bearing, broken cable, cracked frame ... sometimes the local guy can help with these minor issues .... Sometimes not.

Early in this thread I posted a pic of a KLR broken in half. Did you know that guy had a local welder in Baja weld up the frame? He put everything back on the bike, rode it back to USA. He then bought a used KLR frame, transferred everything over ... then rode the KLR back to Mexico, continued his trip. :thumbup1:

It was a month long interruption ... and cost some money, but the welding was cheap and much cheaper than a truck ride up to the border. (1000 miles)

Some local friends here crossed Russia in a Ural side car rig. It broke down many times and locals always got it going. They were hit (rig mostly destroyed), bought all new parts for like $500, had it rebuilt. The girl is Russian ... lives here in San Fran Bay Area, so language was no problem. They had the ride of a life time, by their account. :thumbup1:

From reading Walter's ride reports I got the feeling there are a few decent mechanics in Russia? Dunno. Africa? I think you're on your own there ... but you never know ...

Yes, but it is pretty much the same with modern bikes...

Sure, and maybe a unicorn will show up with whatever parts the locals don't have...

Great story. GuiltyParty did pretty much the same somewhere rather more remote than Baja, with his Triumph 800xc, which I suppose counts as a modern bike: Going Walkabout on an 800xc through Russia & Central Asia...and maybe beyond... - ADVrider

I usually stay out of "my brand of bike is better than yours" conversations, but....

In the 90's I had a R100GSPD, and found it too heavy for what I wanted to do. I decided to buy the best street bike of the Japanese dual sports, which, in my opinion was the KLR. This was in 2001. I have used this bike mainly for trips, I use other bikes for daily transport. Currently, it has about 83,000 miles, maybe 2/3 of those south of the US border in various Latin American countries. It has puked two of the OEM rear shocks, I now have a Progressive brand unit, so far, so good. The only other significant failure was the speedo drive gearbox in the front hub, and a loose baffle in the muffler that restricted airflow (try diagnosing that one). I have done some prophylactic maintenance, like wheel bearings, clutch plates, water pump seals, and the infamous doohickey, but I have never had a serious breakdown on the road. I reshimmed the valves at 8,000 miles, and have checked them several times since then, but never adjusted them.

Does any of this make it a "better" bike than anything else? It all depends on what you want. I ride very conservatively when far from home, so horsepower per cc means nothing to me, and if I need more suspension, then I am going too fast. I understand carburetors, so a fuel system breakdown doesn't hold any terror for me. If I understood EFI better, maybe I would prefer that.

I am curious what kind of longevity people are getting on the more high strung bikes, KTM 690 enduro and the like. I know someone with a CBR1000R who has 100,000 miles, and the engine has never been apart, so I suspect it can be done.

The KLR has been a good choice for me. Knowing what I know now, I might have chosen a XR650L, just because there are so many more Honda dealers in Latin America.

so with far less experience in RTW'ing than many of you, i'm still gonna chime in here with what i have observed in 30 years of riding all manner of beasts.

simple = better.

electronics are fantastic until they take a shit.

i have two fairly simple bikes, a dr650 and a dl1000. both ARE bulletproof, until they are not. but there is no doubt amongst those that know these bikes: the dr650 is light years easier to diagnose and likely cheaper to fix.

the dl1000 is fairly reliable as big efi bikes go. it has it's known issues and those have fixes. but every once in a while, one pops up with a problem that confounds the "experts"--the dealers, those that truly know the machine, and the masses that have ridden it for many years. sure, all of them get fixed eventually, but at what cost? after how long?

compare to the mighty dr. old skewl, carbed, thumper with just about no electronics (does the cdi count as electronics?). no ecu. no fidigity, persnickety efi. no fancy anything. when they breakdown it's a matter of usually one of two things: carb/fuel issue (as in that damn in-line fuel filter), or the stator. no water pump issues. no ecu issues. dead basic. dead simple. and dead cheap.

if someone freighted a dr??? out of mongolia because of a broken carb needle, well, i dunno what to say, except maybe they shouldda taken a basic moto mechanics class before riding off into the nether-lands.

old and basic, but they are also tried and true.

Everything in life is relative.

To someone with points it clearly is. CDIs were abused as new fangled electronics when they came on the scene too. Cant adjust them, cant check them, bla bla bla.

Why would CDI not be electronics?? Its a black box just like an ECU. Its closed. You cant fix it if it shags itself. You cant diagnose which circuit within it is faulty and repair that by the side of the road in Malawi.

Why is CDI ok to you but ECU isnt? Seems a bit hypocritical to me to slam one and love the other. I would be curious to hear your justification for that logic.

I have had EFI cars and motorcycles for 30 years. Since the mid 1980s. In half a million miles on all vehicles since then, never once have I had to "fidget" with a single injector on them.

What car do you drive?
How often does its injection need "fidgeting"? (maybe you can compare with how often your carbed motorcycle needs "fidgeting for reference, and how many miles each does between a good old "fidget")
How often does your EFI car break down?
When was the last time your car's ECU failed?

I am actually not being rhetorical. Lets try and put the answers out there so we can really have a more informed discussion on the fidgetyness of carbs vs EFI.

I will throw some info in for comparison sake ... My cousin keeps an old 1970s muscle car - with carbs and points. I have a BMW EFI V8. Both produce around 300-350 hp. By engine has done 150,000 miles. His less than 50,000. I have never once had to "fidget" with the EFI in 150,000 miles. He has to adjust his carbs (fidget) every few outings!

The fact that he enjoys it, doesnt make it less fidgety. In fact, he has a Hyundai EFI car, just cause he doesnt want to have to fidget with his old donk every time to goes to work or down to the shops.

So my personal experience with old simple tech vs newfangled EFI and ECU tech is that old tech is about 1000 times more "fidgety".

I am happy to do my next blast across Siberia with me on my EFI ECU X-Challenge and put Austin Vince next to me on his DR350 ... if someone wants to put up the money for this fidgetyness challenge. Lets see who has to fidget the most with carbs / EFI. Me or the DR350. I would bet any amount of money on the answer .... would you?

i think it's foolish to compare the efi systems in cars to those in bikes. are you doubting the existence of efi problems in bikes? i don't think so, but comparing them is unfair as those in cars are less likely to fail for who knows how many reasons--exceeds my knowledge for sure.

i can speak only to my experience with any degree of certainty and it's been as follows:

dr650: 4 years of hardcore off-road travel through central america (mostly nica) using local gas--for better or worse. not a single carb issue. no adjustments, no stumbles, starts and runs better than new. no other issues.

Dl1000: 4 years of easy florida riding (boring) using local gas. throttle bodies out of synch 3 times, throttle position sensor out of adjustment twice, throttle body boot popped off twice.

now, you could say that the DL is a shitty example of ancient efi technology and you may be right. or you could say that jap bikes suck compared to the bavaria beasts and you may be right (doubtfully). but my experience doesn't lie.

i'm active on three vstrom specific fora and there are literally 1000's of posts regarding efi issues. i'm active on advrider and read legions of posts of problems of all sorts with fancy, big, "overland" bikes by the bavarians--problems that sometimes cannot be fixed even by the dealers located in the countries these poor folks get stranded in. one of the 12,000,000 sensors goes bad, a microscopic something or other messes with something or other, what would otherwise be an innocuous voltage issue shitcans the entire bike etc etc.

is older and simpler better for all purposes? no. does it reduce the number of problems and more importantly, does it make fixing more straightforward? imho (with aint worth much!), yes.

i drive a 2012 mazda 3. 24000 miles not a stumble. but for modern automobile engines 24000 miles is nothing. i also live in the 1st world where gas is generally clean and free of 12 lbs of contaminants per 100 gallons so...

i think the point is this: take a 2014 GS1200 and a 2014 KLR. go out into the boonies. you have a choice of having to deal with one of them breaking down with limited resources available to you. which one would you choose?

p.s. you may be right about the cdi--i said i wasn't sure. and i've only heard of a handful of ecu's going south. the larger, more common problem with efi bikes is, from what i have experienced and read, related to electrical issues and sensors going bad--neither of which would necessarily put an older design carbed bike out of commission.

A CDI is definitely an electronic device. But it's introduction never created the issues and controversy F.I. ... and it's related components ... has. CDI units were introduced to Japanese bikes in the 70's, were quickly praised as being "the 2nd coming". I know, I was there riding at the time.

Sure, Luddites riding old Moto Guzzi's (like me), Brit bikes (yep, those too) or ancient HD riders complained ... but these complaints were short lived as CDI units immediately proved themselves as SOLID and RELIABLE. Slam dunk!

At the time there just were not many issues or complaints. The evolution of F.I. on bikes has taken more time and required a bit more evolution. (that's a polite way saying ... things were FOOKED UP for 10 years)

BMW were pioneers but have fallen victim to their Teutonic nature ... making systems overly complex and very clever ... incorporating too many components and features that their luxury Cars have. :innocent:

The Japanese took a simpler (and less expensive) approach ... and have had a better track record overall ... and of course have sold 20 times more bikes than BMW or KTM since EFI was introduced.

You can't compare F.I. on bikes to a CDI unit where serious torture off road is intended. CDI is shock proof ... was proven early on in both Super Cross and Moto Cross bikes with no brainer reliability. Names like Denso and Kokusan became famous for truly bulletproof CDI units.

But EFI has more critical (and some delicate) interrelated, ancilary components, both electronic and mechanical: multiple sensors and related wiring, steeper motors and related wiring mechanical linkages, plus interrelated ABS computers, traction control computers... on and on. It's all linked up and one minor fault can cause major problems until diagnosed. Enter CANbus, which for BMW has been a blessing and a curse.

Sure, for the most part, it's ALL quite reliable. But in serious off road conditions we have seen problems.

There is one critical device ALL bikes have and one that too many riders take for granted ... one that is so CRITICAL to modern EFI bikes that it bears mention: The Battery. EFI bikes with ABS, Traction Control and more ... are very dependent on a strong battery. Off road hammering is never good for batteries, despite what some OEM's may claim.

If your Battery craps out on your 700 lbs. GS-A you are stuck. :(
On many old tech dual sports ... you can ride on with a dead battery. It won't start on the button ... but will run if you can bump start it. (I can on my DR)

The other critical issue dogging many modern bikes is bad fuel and how it affects fuel pumps. Both BMW and KTM have had major, repeating problems with these issues. The F800Gs in particular has had these problems and of course the KTM 690. Failing fuel pumps are common ... and a bit of a joke to anyone who's owned Japanese bikes for decades. A fuel pump is just never an issue. (Oh wait! My DR650 doesn't have a fuel pump! :oops2:)

But the future is CLEAR ... Carbs WILL go the way of the Dodo (and the KLR!)
:rofl:
EFI is our future ... like it or not. Most times if you can keep your battery healthy then EFI will survive.

Try not to have a heart attack the first time you pull the tank off a new BMW R1200GS or KTM 1190 ADV. I've been in the shops an seen them. They are quite intimidating. The number of unidentifiable components is truly daunting, the loads of wire bundles and multi-pin connectors is simply astounding. So good luck with all that. bier

For the immediate future I'll try to keep things simple. But to each their own.
:D:D:D

This is a no brainer for me, I'd pick the GS--not because I think it would be easier to fix, but because I'm fairly confident it won't break in the first place (I don't claim to know how likely the KLR would be to break down). If the GS does break, the scenarios under which you could fix a KLR but not a GS are rather limited.

Finding spare parts from locals? In most parts of the world, "not bloody likely" for either bike.

Also, I've been reading GS fora for several years and don't recall reading about any problems with the EFI or CANBUS other than some problems with fuel pumps in early GSs, and that was easily fixed by bringing a cheap bypass cable or a spare fuel pump.

No I am not doubting the issues of problems related to EFI on bikes as i am sure you are not doubting problems related to being air cooled and carbed.

In my experience the problems EFI bikes have had, have not been because of the fact they are EFI. They have been because the manufacturers skimped on certain parts. The problems the 690 has are related to two things. KTM uses the wrong fuel filter. KTM used (pre 2012) a badly designed fuel pump. Both are probably related to KTM's inexperience with EFI at the time the 690 was designed.

Cars, piston aeroplanes, diesel submarines etc all prove the unbeatable reliability of EFI. WWII fighters proved that in rough conditions (think adventure motorcycling), Fuel Injection is superior to carburetion because it doesn't rely on gravity acting consistently in one direction to provide a reliable and predicable fuel flow to the engine. The problems bike manufacturers have are because (going back to my initial point of their being no such thing as a bulletproof mass market motorcycle) the bike manufacturers skimp to extreme levels - they are all cheap and cheerful. There is nothing wrong with EFI. There is something wrong with how some manufacturers on some models have skimped and saved too much.

So the reference to cars was the "proof of concept" evidence.

My bike model has no problems with fuel pumps or with fuel filters. I have some pretty extensive adventure motorcycling on it. Therefore, EFI for me is not an issue. Actually thats not true ... it is an issue. I have a strong preference for EFI on adventure bikes. Precisely because it is less fidgety. Its set and forget.

My bike does have other weak points (wiring to the fuel pump). As indeed do KLRs have issues (I just googled KLR design flaws and got 400,000 results - I dont want to crash the HUBB by listing them).

A design flaw with a particular model does not equal an issue with say EFI in general. You cant extrapolate like that. If a DRZ has cam chain design flaw it does not mean piston engines as a whole suck.

As the car comparison demonstrated, EFI is vastly more reliable than Carbs, in a like for like comparison.

So to summarize:

EFI - arguably less likely to fail, somewhat self tuning, less likely to be fixed in the field in the event of a failure

Carb - never perfect, seldom catastrophic failure

Take your pick, and go riding.

i still think efi is MORE likely to FAIL than a carb. will carbs need adjusting where efi won't? sure. but adjustment is simple and doesn't require parts.

Then by all means ride a carbed bike.

Whatever their other faults, I have near complete confidence in at least the EFI portions of the bikes that I ride.

And the parts most likely to fail (as unlikely as that might be) are small and cheap, so I bring a spare.

Maybe the KLR isn't quite dead yet? At least not in the main stream glossy USA motorcycle press? Cycle World's annual "Travel & Adventure" mag just came out here.

It's mostly a re-hash of stuff they've already printed in the regular monthly rag ... it used to be quite good but after major corp. house cleaning ... it's now mostly CRAP ... but does have a few gems ... like some work by Jimmie Lewis on the GS1200 vs. KTM 1190 ADV and Jimmie's take on Sand riding (former podium finisher in the Dakar)

One interesting bit was a short piece on the KLR! Noob big shot editor Andrew Bornhope (I think his dad is some corporate big wig) does a pretty fair review of the venerable KLR. You have to pay to read it online (not worth it) ... but for US readers, it's on the shelves now. It's not bad and lays out all the arguments for the KLR pretty effectively.

They talk about the common upgrades owners do and refer to KLR.com. and site just how HUGE the bike is in terms of sales and staying power.
US riders should check it out ... bier