Ideas and suggestions for HUUK 2008
 

From your experince at HUUK 2007; if there was something you thought could be done differently next time round which will make the meeting an even more exciting and pleasurable experince then have you say here...

Picked up from other threads:
Should women talks be open to men?
Should the inidividual tent pitches be marked out beforehand?
Should the showers be open earlier?
Pets: Stay at home, add to roadkill cookout, tolerated?
Early morning drunken shinanigans. Just some fun or public nuisance!
Should scratch patch be donation free?
Should alternative catering be available eg massive BBQ?

1: Yes, I'm fascinated by what moon-cups are. Is it some kind of biscuit?
2: No, but 'clear runs' could be marked out to ensure people can get there bikes in and out. Pitches removes the individuals right to choose a site that suits them.
3: Is there earlier than 8.30 in the morning?
4: No dogs, unless the owners can GUARANTEE theirs will not bark/piss on tents and bikes. Perhaps a £100 deposit placed behind the bar?
5: Quietness in the evening is just good manners. Say between 11pm and 9am? There could also be a designated 'quiet zone'.
6: Scratch patch should be without any strings whatsoever. Just a gift from one biker to another.
7: Mmmm, BBQ...slaver.....

JMHO

Matt :)

1) Latex re-usable alternatives to tampons, panty-liners etc. Already mentioned before in the HUBB. That's how I learnt about them and brought them to other's attention. They're on the shelves of larger Boots stores so they're not exactly 'underground' but nevertheless more a girls-only topic.
2) I agree. Some football-pitch marking spray lines wouldn't hang around too long after the event & wouldn't have the potential for misshap that tape could.
3) To us early risers, yes.
4) I still think it's easier to have a blanket 'no dogs' rule.
5) It's just unfortunate. I think everyone understood the idea of 'take it over by the fire', just occasionally getting carried away late at night.
6) I don't see why a donations pot and the concept of freely given, freely taken can't go hand-in-hand. No-one should be left feeling obligated to make a donation, however.
7) .

After my initial comment regarding the venue, I did a bit of google-hunting. The only sort of places I could locate in the UK that had both camping and 100+ attendee conference facilities had some religious link: both christian and islamic. Whilst they did advertise their conference facilities I have no idea how open any would be to a completely non-related gathering. It seems (at least at a cursory glance) that Lumb Farm is uniquely suited to our needs.

1. Feedback has it this was thorough informative. Maybe have two talks: one specific for ladies only; thene a more general on to be attended by anyone. Option two could always just be a break-out session.
2. If you got there first put your tent where you want. If someone comes along and wants to put their tent up in a "not so sensible" way, don't just sit their, tell him his being a daft git and help him find a good place. If you are the daft git that block a route then use you common sense and move, even if you have already set up your little comfort zone.
3. It's three days...who needs a shower ;)
4. Allow them. If you brought your dog and your dog barks or is a nuisance then you stop what you are doing and go sit with the dog and keep it quiet day and night.
5. Trying to teach someone even more drunk that you how to use a dual fuel stove at 3am isn't a nuisance, it's plain daft stupid and made me very very nervous seeing huge flames licking at my tent.
6. Give and take freely, with no strings attached. Put a donation pot at the bar or at the entrances to the various lecture halls. I dumped 3 bags full of stuff which vanished within one talk. I didn't expect anyone to make a donation.
7. fair enough no hotdog stands etc but an evening BBQ is always great; but for 500ppl might be a bit of a catering headache.

Maybe just giving a very broad hint at the list of topics that might be covered would suffice, rather than just saying "Women only". Even just titling it 'Intimate Issues for The Female Traveller' might have helped.

Individually, these things are fine. Collectively they are too organised, rather as Youth Hostels used to be. Too many regs kill the feeling of freedom. It's a bit like the Ten Commandments.

Good stuff Matt - I really liked 1 and 3!!!!!!!

HU ideas
 

Hi to all

1) I think the women only talks are a good idea especially as there are always new women there and not all of us are hardened travellers. I think this years could eaisily have run into another hour with all the questions. It might be good to have a mixed talk as well to give people ideas (border crossings etc) or maybe a female panel for guys to fire their questions at....
2)Just use sense and leave a path
3) Please open the showers earlier
4) Dogs able to attend but if white yappy dog and owner turn up then roadkill cookout stew!
5) Didn't hear any - but show some consideration
6) I think donations are a good idea but optional
7) Designated BBQ area for all to use maybe a good idea....

1) I would have like to attend, as my wife had to work this weekend and it would have been nice to relay some information.. BUT as it can make some woman uncomfortable having a man there :oops2: and as it is more important for them to understand and I say have maybe the talk 2X 1 woman only, 1 all welcome. (other talks were multi times):thumbup1:


2)No tent sizes are too varied and it will just end up going over the lines any way.. Did all 500+ show up..(my guess is no) if people started to defend space it would remind me of my childhood.:stormy:."MOM!!! he crossed the line!!, :nono:"

3)yes please... it would lessen congestion as well.

4)I like dogs.. dont know how they got them there on a bike though??:eek3:
in truth don't care..most were fine it was only one or two that were a pain..but isnt this always the case!:thumbdown:

5)I though people were really good.. maybe i was just lucky even the drunken stumbling back to the tents near me was not bad..
I know issue water pistols with ice cold water in them.. that 'll sober them up fast.. and put out the fuel stove thing too.(which is very scary to read:helpsmilie:)

6) I also put stuff on the scratch table.. and 2 seconds later it was gone..
I say: have the table free and clear and have a box else where.. Two different charities (poor bikers and Rider for health) so have two different areas?

7) I brought a stove and cooked most of my own meals anyway.. so I dont see any need for more catering (maybe a easier access point ... e.g. not directly in front of the big meeting hall).
But a burger and snag (sausage to most of you) bbq (say a 1-2£ each profit goes to RFH?) one night would be a good social thing.. nothing gets blokes together like a bbq'd meet and beer...

hope this was helpful.

it was a really good time, so if nothing changes then it will still work
in other news next year if i am in the country i put up my hand to help out.

Well living under the 10 commandments does give you freedom; but this is not the forum for such a debate.

I agree that too many rules could stifle any occasion but jambing 500 people into a play pen the size of a football field does require that certain paramaters/restrictions be put in place to ensure everyone has a pleasant time in what every form that may take. Evidently and unfortunately common sense does not previal over stubborness, selfishness, arrogance and ignorance.

1. About the suggestion that the talk should happen twice, the thing is that it wasn't a "talk" that can happen twice. It was a group of women sitting in a circle (as women do) yakking on a bit or a lot (as they do) and asking each other the kind of questions that some women feel awkward to ask in front of blokes. And it got quite ... detailed. If it's open to men it won't be the same event, it would be something else. I thought the current format was useful for those of us there and didn't harm anyone except those with over active Masonic conspiracy theories.


4. Not sure which dog was the miscreant? If it was the white jack russell with the R 80g/s.. he is a biker not just a dog. He rides two up. I'm not sure why a barking dog is seen as a problem. Dogs bark, it's what they do. Kids scream. 2-strokes whine. Very uncomfortable with the idea of rushing to ban things that you're irritated by. It seems very unfair on the 5 non-annoying dogs.

Picked up from other threads:

Should women talks be open to men? Nope, wheres the need ?? Why do we need to know about Tampons etc ?

Should the inidividual tent pitches be marked out beforehand? Not marked out but maybe a camping plan of some kind would make things easier. Just 2 clear tracks up the field would do. Perhaps marked out with cones.

Should the showers be open earlier?

The showers were completely empty after lunch. Camping is meant to be smelly :)

Pets: Stay at home, add to roadkill cookout, tolerated?

Im cool with dogs as long as they are quiet. If you have a barking mutt, DONT bring it or be prepare to be evicted.

Early morning drunken shinanigans. Just some fun or public nuisance!

I didnt have a problem with it. Its a fun meeting and people are having a good time. if you want to be in bed with bovril at 9pm, book a B&B. If you go to other meets and rallys, music and bands play all night. Ear plugs are cheap and effective.

Should scratch patch be donation free?

Donations are cool as long as its not compulsury. I have no quarms about throwing lose change into a jar.

Should alternative catering be available eg massive BBQ?

I luuuuurv BBQ so yes. I cant say I was impressed with the food availabe but i guess its the best they can do with soo many people. Greasy food and chips with everything got very dull and not good for my hollywood figure ;)

Generally leave it as an open, friendly, flexible venue anything more will start to become a bit anal and may kill the spirit of it all.

A big mutha of a BBQ - mmmmm!

Showers should be open from 7/7.30.
Water tap should be a little more accessible. I don't think a stand pipe in the campsite is too much to ask.

The mention of a travellers jumble, second hand area is a good call.

Phil

Hi Clare

For centuries women have rightly pointed out that many aspects of society are male dominated and exclusive to men.

It is disappointing therefore to see some women repeating the same mistakes as men did in the past. Open societies are healthy societies; special cliques and groups lead to schisms and splinter movements. Open, liberal thinking free from secrecy is what's needed - dont you think?

In very general terms I agree with you but in the specific instance of the HUUK meeting you come across as trying to force women into publicity over subjects that quite often are kept between themselves and their GPs or very close friends. That's not right or fair.

I couldn't disagree more. Yes there was a crowd of men peering through the doors wondering what they were talking about, but the session was obviously very popular with the women, and it's not on for the men to challenge their right to hold these sessions.

Tim

Back on topic (sort of) with a great/rubbish idea!
 

To get back to the main reason for the thread, which was suggestions for future meets, I have had a bit of a brainstorm.

There was chat on the 'Thanks for the great meet.' thread about a second H.U. event later in the year. Some (like me) suggested the North, some prefered a meet in the south. Certainly a meet in Derbyshire would seem a bit 'samey' to do twice a year.

This North/South devide got me thinking. The Derbyshire meet is great, but the second meet doesn't have to be a facsimile somewhere else, we don't HAVE to have loads of talks and slideshows. We could just get together and share info. in the pub by the good old medium of conversation! ;)

So to please the folks in the north and south why not make the second meet of the year a travelling meet? Maybe even a 'Lands End to John o'Groats' (or the other way round! A long weekend of four days down the best roads we can think of. Stopping in a particular campsite with pub each night and riding down together? You could call it 'The HU Grand Old British Ride Out' or something. :)
The beauty is people could join the ride out at any point they chose, for as long as they chose. It'd be like one of those monster Harley ride out they have in America (only quieter!).

Anyway, this may or may not be a good idea but thought I'd suggest it anyway! :)

Matt :)

Nice one Matt! Now it just takes someone to put it together, but this forum can handle that, especially if, like me, folk don't want to be too organised.

There have been one-off HU meetings in the north of England in the past - details should be on other threads in here and your suggestion is a good extension of that development.

As for the off-thread, women-only meeting about whatever, was there a men-only meeting at Ripley and if not, then you have to wonder why not?

Dave

Yep, I'd be happy to do a bit of research up my neck of the woods, and there's plenty of riders to suggest stop-offs and roads. Of course, you could simply stipulate stop-offs (overnight and say one during the day at lunchtime) and people could choose their own route.

Matt :)

How about extending that ride down to southern Spain and finishing up at a HU in Andalucia? It's in the process of being organised as we speak.

Motorcycle first aid for remote travel
 

Hi

Just looking for feedback:
Have just spoken to a company regarding a first aid course to possible run at HU next year. Basically its a motorbike course that we'll design to apply to remote travel. It will be HSE certificate at the end of it. The course would be a 9 hour (one day course) and taught by medical trained bikers and expedition leaders/mountain rescue teams in groups of about 15-20 people. The cost has been negotiated to approx £60pp (depending on how much interest). They are also prepared to give a presentation on first aid kits/where there is no doctor etc.

Being from a nursing background it does look like a great course but would love any feedback before i run it past Grant.

Thanks

Becky

More ideas needed?
 

Matt,

Will be interesting to see what others say about your idea: it could be something akin to:-
Big Trail Bike (nothing to do with me BTW)

but with more emphasis on the UK rather than Europe, more impromptu in organisation and with camping as the main accommodation "theme"?

Dave

It's an interesting idea Becky, but it does pre-suppose that it's not you lying on the floor under your bike with your leg bent back at a ridiculous angle. If you're lucky enough to be the uninjured member of a group, however...

I wonder if the other side: the dysentry, sting, bite, food poisoning, dehydration, fever, hypothermia etc. angles might be more pertinent to independent and potentially-solitary travellers of foreign lands. Is that a course or a book that's required?

My 2p

Should women talks be open to men?
- I can understand that for some women having men present would be embarassing, but equally some men will be interested in the talks either for their own information or possibly for their partners. We used to be embarassed about talking about condoms once but now it's OK - the barriers only get broken by talking about 'it'. Someone suggested that in the main these should be women only, but have at least one session which is open to men.

Should the inidividual tent pitches be marked out beforehand?
No - a nightmare to do, it simply wouldn't work. I think the best solution is for the 'meet and greet' volunteers to mention to people as they arrive the need to keep exit routes clear.

Should the showers be open earlier?
- Much as it would be nice, my understanding of this is that the pub dictate this not HU. They work hard enough and stay open late so I think it's unreasonable for them to also open early. We just need to respect their position on this.

Pets: Stay at home, add to roadkill cookout, tolerated?
- I think it should be made clear to pet owners before they register that pets are allowed but it's strictly 'one complaint and you're out'

Early morning drunken shinanigans. Just some fun or public nuisance!
- It can very quickly go from one to the other. If people are being loud and drunken, why not just ask them politely to be quiet? I think a 'quiet' area is a good idea.

Should scratch patch be donation free?
- yes, and no. There should be no obligation to donate, but a tin should be available for those who wish to do so. I know I'd feel bad about taking off the table if I had nothing to contribute to it, and I'd happily put something into a charity tin as an altruistic gesture in keeping with the ethos of the scratch table.

Should alternative catering be available eg massive BBQ?
- again, I think we need to respect the fact that the pub is serving food. They need that trade in order to make it worth their while hosting the event. I feel that the roadkill cookout already does plenty enough without adding a massive BBQ. Leave as is.


My own suggestions:

Many people found the timetable of events were too thinly spread out. The venue doesn't really allow many other places where these could be placed, so how about having an A4 photocopy available from some of the traders - or maybe left on the scratch table? I put my own name forward for arranging, artworking and financing this.

Assuming bad weather: I have access to a large number of pallets, but not to a van. If someone can pick these up from Cambridge we could use them to keep access ways and traders stands mud-free and they can be chucked on the bonfire at the end of the meeting.

Stand-pipe.
I felt this was hard for people to find and the access was not brilliant. The floor was constantly wet and I'm amazed the washing machine didn't get short-circuited given the amount of water poured on it. I'd suggest that a longer piece of pipe and perhaps a sign "water point in here" is all that would be needed.

My dear Saga

Nothing could be further from the truth! I dont want to force anyone to do anything. I am sorry youre not happy with an open society free from division, but I cant help you there. You'll have to work on that yourself.

No, I only want to discuss issues freely, but I get the feeling that you lean towards suppression. I hope I'm wrong there!

But I'm glad you agree with me in general terms - I'm happy with that! And one thing is beyond dispute - your TDM is very tidy.........

Buen viaje!!!

Nice idea Becky
But if it meant missing a lot of talks then perhaps the take-up would be minimal? 9 hours is a big chunk of time on the weekend.

I may be wrong but I also think it's a great idea - go for it!!

No man. I'm recognising the simple fact that most UK women would prefer not to discuss certain things in front of unfamiliar men and completely respecting their wishes.

Ola! HUMMS looks great!
 

This HUMMS idea looks so interesting - it's not competitive, it's free spirited and independent, there are few rules. AND because its on existing dirt tracks it doesnt stuff up the environment.

Its a terrific idea!!!

Buen viaje!!!

Yikes!
 

Who would have thought that there'd be so many storms in this little tea cup!

The Women's only talk was mirrored by a Men's only talk in a previous year.
So - both genders benefitted.
I like the suggestion of just renaming the talks for next year - make it unmistakable what the content is, possibly having the closed first session as earlier suggested (good plan!) and then an open second session.

The ethos of the Scratch Patch - since I was the one who suggested it and set it up - was a no strings, no cash, give and take idea. Those that have stuff to give - do, and those that need it - take it.
The idea was to do something that was moneyless, for once.
Charity collections should be separate.

Camping chaos can definitely be avoided by marking up access routes to the tops of the fields that are no-pitch areas.
I'm not sure about quiet zones... what will you do with the snorers? :) (put them with the naughty dogs?)

Matt - great idea about the roving meet!!
:thumbup1:
Could you rove it on over to Oz for me?

Basically any first aid is subject to you not being stuck under a bike!
Having just finished a tropical medicine course, I had so many questions from friends at HU about stuff, I thought it would be nice to cover these diseases in a talk for all to hear - i promise it will be more than Immodium for dystentry!

Sounds good! I look forward to it!

BRILLIANT IDEA

!! Lets hope it can be arranged :)

I have done one before but repetition is the best way to rememeber.. I.E.. I would be interested!

If it ain't broke...
 

1.Should women talks be open to men?

2.Should the inidividual tent pitches be marked out beforehand?

3.Should the showers be open earlier?

4.Pets: Stay at home, add to roadkill cookout, tolerated?

5.Early morning drunken shinanigans. Just some fun or public nuisance!

6.Should scratch patch be donation free?

7.Should alternative catering be available eg massive BBQ?

1. Where's the need other than curiousity? i'm sure there are lots of issue's with traveling as a woman that don't apply to men an not femmanine hygene but social and cultural.

2. Again as long as everyone use's common sense and doesn't block the obviouse bike route's i don't think there's any need and it's just more work for the organisers (thanks for an amazing weekend BTW, i popped my HU cherry)

3. Dunno about this one, i only had one an was supprised i bothered but if it means opening everything earlier then its more hassle than it's worth to the those few who actually care that much, why not just go every afternoon instead? it's only 3 days! and an overlanders meeting at that!

4. i love dogs and don't think they should be banned at all (and dogs don't just bark, their owners let them) but those that can't be kept under some control shouldn't be allowed. Harsh maybe but training classes aren't that expensive if thats what it takes.
i had a personal collie alarm clock on sunday morning, i was feeling a little worse for wear n only got a few hours sleep before having to ride home, not fun but not really that much of a problem(ear plugs next time)

5. it happens but it's the same as the dogs, if it's the same person all weekend disturbing everyone tell them first then if they don't listen chuck em out. it's just consideration, i was up til dawn every night but i stayed by the fire pretty quite mostly (tho dan walsh does have a hell of a set of lungs on im:biggrin3: )...Statues...

6. i put some money in tho i didn't take anything, why does anyone care? it wasn't like there was someone standing their watching dissaprovingly if you didn't donate. i say keep the money pot it's for a good cause and i think people are being a bit pedantic if they think it's wrong just out of principle.

7.why not get a few wire grills or something by the fire n let people cook on it if they want too (like they were, cheers for the baked spud offer whoever you were) saves more organising.

P S can't agree more with the more accesable water comment, it's not great when your dehydrating through admittedly your own beer consumtion to stumble about only too find the doors been closed (cheers too the guy who gave me some water that night probably saved me a much worse hangover)

The HU Grand Old British Ride Out
 

Great idea:clap:
I'd be well up for it an it'd be nice to have a second informal transient meet where people could join and leave as they please the only problem i see would be that many people turning up at the same pub/campsite all at once so i guess it would have to be slightly organised.
Maybe a vague route could be worked out an members from various areas could contact local campsites/pubs though i realise this may be detracting from the free spirited idea.
Hate to be so practical but just a thought.

Hi,

This is pretty much what I think. These things (and I expect Lumb Farm is included in this) are relaxed and informal and SUCCESSFUL because some poor bugger has spent months organising every last detail. You have to have some organisation or it would just be a shambles.

I think the various nights accomodation would have to be pre-booked and paid up in advance like Lumb Farm. If you only choose to do two or three nights then that's bad luck, the price would unlikely be prohibitive anyway. Like Lumb Farm you'd have to limit numbers. As for route you could have an 'official' route recommended by a rider local to each leg. People would obviously be free to choose their own route, but I ride on my own a lot. The novelty of sharing my ride with dozens (or even more!) riders interests me a lot!

I'd be happy to organise a Scottish leg or reccomend a route or research some accom.

Matt :)

Although I dont live there, i live very close to North Wales and would happily organise something there. Breathtaking scenary and great roads. Plus countless b&b's and campsites. Beyws-y-coed is a good stop.

first aid course
 

I would very much like to do this, whether wrapped up in a HUUK or separately.

First aid idea is excellent. Agree with above comments that maybe the 9hr training should be done seperately as it will eat into other presentation times.

Maybe have an away weekend specifically for this training course where anyone interested gets together at an agreed venue/camp site whereever and does the course over 2 days.

I'm sure a presentation on all the most common travellers bugs you can get and basic remedies per continent would be very well attended at the HU Meeting; or a breifing on some of the really gross nasties that you could come across; or all the diseases that are spread by flying insects (that will keep you busy for hours); or the contents of a travellers First Aid bag. Also just finished working through "Travel medicine for Health Professionals" and it is terrifying how many things can get you out there...forget about the big five, rather be worried about the little five ;)

Hi Tim

I agree with much of what you say - yes there were lots of men peering and wondering - yes it was popular with the women - but "challenge " is going too far. My point was to discuss the matter of exclusive meetings, which I don't agree with. But I'm very relaxed about it all.To say that is "not on" is to stifle debate, and you dont want that, I hope.

Put it this way - if the men decided to exclude women from talks/meetings, then women would rightly object to this, and I would support those objections. All my life I've wanted to see more women m/cyclists, so I regret any divisive tendencies in this area, at a time when I think I see a better representation of women in an activity which is too male dominated. You will agree that this year we had terrific talks from women travellers, who were not (I am glad to say) only speaking to a female audience.

PS Nice Morocco site BTW.

Wth
 

So what if the ladies want their own talks.

So what's wrong with the showers open early, some people might want to keep clean.

What's wrong with a bit of order on the camp site, ie: where we can ride and where we can pitch.

I must say barking dogs can be left at home though....I mean are you a blind person? No disrespect, is it needed, more importantly can it ride, lol.

Nothing wrong with a scratch patch..well done to "M" To those who don't like giving up some pennies and feel obligated to do so if they take something....so be it, if you cannot take it without feeling guilty ...then don't take it, Myself, I took some ear plugs ...thanks, and a bungee cord, thanks again and yes I felt like I needed to give back some pennies...so what's the big deal, is that not what the whole meeting was about, taking and giving....

I agree some people were a bit loud at night near my tent....but hey its a £$%^&*() rally for goodness sake, if you don't like it don't come.

BBQ...BBQ...BBQ...BBQ

:scooter:
WHY IS THIS SMILEY A SCOOTER, WHERE IS A SMILEY ON A REAL BIKE LIKE A XT......................

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checked by failure then to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because the live in the grey twilight that knows not victory or defeat.

Hi Hikeifulike,

I like that quote in your signature. Where does it come from?

Matt :)

Theodore
 

Matt,
I believe that Rhoosevelt is the man. It may have been quoted, and probably mis-quoted, by others as well.

Bored.com - Famous Quotes Database

Any more thoughts about a "ride-out" meeting?; the concept seems to have a following in this thread.

Dave

Hi

Apologies for going off topic but just wanted to point out a scooter is a real bike, I know because my Tmax scooter was quite happily following an XT during most of the road rideout I was on as it completed over 500 miles that weekend most of it in rain. My other bike is a Moto Morini. Previously I had a BMW R1100RS, the TMAX is no less a bike than any of them. Unfortunately if I ride my BMW or Morini I get nods returned on my TMAX I do not?? shame.

Regards

Robin

Because we all have biases towards certain things, whether we like to admit it or not.. :tongue3: I must admit that I don't generally expect to see a nod or wave (or the Australian single index finger salute) coming from a scooter rider in the UK though. That's my excuse, you'll have to think of your own. :innocent:

Errr No ... a 1 day course is not long enought for remote area care... that is a 3 day course here .. I've already email grant with this but ..

Get them to do a 'sales' presentation - 1 hour .. cover
helmet removal (you need 3 people - the victum err patient, and two first aiders).
basic DRABC .. or what ever the procedure is in your country.
And what types of courses they offer.


Maybe a second one on the first aid kit ... ? I'm changing mine to one that will hang from the handle bars/tree - better access, less problem getting to the thing I want.

The remote area course .. well first aid courses cover the frist 30 minutes before the ambo arives .. in some places there is no ambo so you need training on what to do past that 30 minutes .. to a number of DAYS.. and you won't get all the info in a one day course. Here the basic motorcycle course takes one day ... and covers burns, gravel rash, amputations ... you get the idea - it is full on. The remote area one is .. well more ... toileting ... transport .. monitoring ... long term reactions ..

I'm mostly a solo traveller .. but you still need to know what to do .. the 'helpers' may not know what to do - so you provide the instruction.. not ideal but better than the alternative

----------------------------
Other rambelings

If you alocate one (or two) tracks for in/out then it will get very muddy with the rain in those tracks...

Dogs - if you bring it, it is your problem not mine.

You are spoilt for meetings .. here in OZ the is so far only one .. on the east coast .. a very long way from the west coast ... so if you want one in the south use the spanish one! It is a good excuse to get away...

Noisy neigbours? Ear plugs... I even use them at home when they relay the balist on the train line .. now that is noisy!